Start of Darkness Spell Question

[Ring_of_Gyges]

In his fight with Xykon, Dorukan casts Gate and at least 11 angels come out. What's going on from a D&D rules perspective? Used to summon outsiders, Gate lets you summon up to your HD in creatures. I have a hard time imagining Dorukan as much more than 25th level (he does die fighting Xykon for instance), what are 2 HD or so angels supposed to achieve?

One alternate theory is that he used the travel version of the spell and had a previous agreement with some angels to come as soon as he opened the gate. If he's got the direct support of a LG diety, why not send something able to take out Xykon without breaking a sweat? It's not like he isn't a direct threat to the lives of multiple Gods. Smack the upstart with a Solar or three.

[Chrismith]

In his fight with Xykon, Dorukan casts Gate and at least 11 angels come out. What's going on from a D&D rules perspective? Used to summon outsiders, Gate lets you summon up to your HD in creatures. I have a hard time imagining Dorukan as much more than 25th level (he does die fighting Xykon for instance), what are 2 HD or so angels supposed to achieve?

One alternate theory is that he used the travel version of the spell and had a previous agreement with some angels to come as soon as he opened the gate. If he's got the direct support of a LG diety, why not send something able to take out Xykon without breaking a sweat? It's not like he isn't a direct threat to the lives of multiple Gods. Smack the upstart with a Solar or three.

It's questionable, but the description of Gate says that the caster can call and control up to his caster level HD of creatures. Creatures beyond this cannot be controlled. It's possible, then, that Dorukan called more creatures than he could control, knowing that as celestials they would go after the evil lich rather than the good wizard. Again, this interpretation of the spell description is debatable -- the description says that you call (but not control) a single creature of more than twice your level, but it doesn't specify whether you can do the same with multiple creatures.

[Green Bean]

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

It sounds like you really can call more creatures than you can control, and I guess in Dorukan's case, he knew that the angels would probably go after the lich first.

[ChopSticks28]

Makes sense to me.

[PaladinFreak]

Considering he is guarding one of the locks keeping in a beast that can slaughter pantheons, and undo all of creation, I think it's a safe bet to say he could get some heavenly help without having to actually control the creatures.

[Ring_of_Gyges]

Considering he is guarding one of the locks keeping in a beast that can slaughter pantheons, and undo all of creation, I think it's a safe bet to say he could get some heavenly help without having to actually control the creatures.
Which sort of begs the question about why the Gods are so relaxed about Xykon. We're given to believe that he has a reasonable chance of succeeding in his plot, getting control of a gate, and handing the Snarl over to the Dark One to use as a weapon. Why are the Gods taking that risk? If Xykon shows up at a gate and comes close to taking it, why is it a handful of summoned angels who try to stop him, rather than Thor?

One option is that the other Gods don't realize the Dark One's plan is even a possibility. That would be a little weird, it seems odd that a brand new god who's been looking at the thing for far less time has gained insights into how the Snarl works that the other Gods have missed.

Another option is that the Gods don't seriously think the plan can succeed. Maybe the Dark One's plan is a bad plan, and it is destined to fail for reasons he hasn't grasped yet. The trouble with that option is that it kind of guts the whole story if the premise world threatening evil never really was much of a threat in the first place.

I guess my basic worry is how it is that Xykon (who at best has a CR in the mid to high 20's) is playing in the God's league at all.

[TheElfLord]

Remeber that the gods are limited to acting only in their geographical area, so Thor couldn't step through the gate unless the he was in his own terriotry. Also remember that the Dark One has allies among the evil gods, so it might be more of a stalemate situation to avoid an all out divine conflict.

[EricDerKonig]

Additionally, there could be bans on direct godly intervention.

[donkyhotay]

and most importantly it would make for a lousy story. Rich isn't going to do something like 'oh yeah and all the gods come down and wipe out xykon'.

[factotum]

Yeah. That really WOULD be a Deus Ex Machina ending. :smallwink:

[Icewalker]

I've always hated the excuse "it would make for a bad story".

IMO anybody who needs to use that as justification for part of their story...has a bad story. Everything Rich does he does for good reasons, which I think is a mark of a good writer. We just don't know the reason for this yet, although it will probably be revealed.

[TheGrimace]

Remeber that the gods are limited to acting only in their geographical area, so Thor couldn't step through the gate unless the he was in his own terriotry. Also remember that the Dark One has allies among the evil gods, so it might be more of a stalemate situation to avoid an all out divine conflict.

I couldn't agree more my good friend.
if all the good gods begin directly handling the situation, then all the evil gods would get in on it to.

That's Ragnarok, people, that's the end of the world as we know it (according to many sources)

Good gods are against the end of the world (how could hephaestus make really big hammers if the world ended?)

[PlasticSoldier]

Also if the gods had a huge war someone would let out the secret about the snarl and you'd spawn hundreds of Xykon Wannabe's.

[Lavidor]

In his fight with Xykon, Dorukan casts Gate and at least 11 angels come out. What's going on from a D&D rules perspective? Used to summon outsiders, Gate lets you summon up to your HD in creatures. I have a hard time imagining Dorukan as much more than 25th level (he does die fighting Xykon for instance), what are 2 HD or so angels supposed to achieve?

One alternate theory is that he used the travel version of the spell and had a previous agreement with some angels to come as soon as he opened the gate. If he's got the direct support of a LG diety, why not send something able to take out Xykon without breaking a sweat? It's not like he isn't a direct threat to the lives of multiple Gods. Smack the upstart with a Solar or three.
Just let me break out SoD here
Actually, it is possible for Dorukan to be above level 25. :xykon: had to cast 5 Energy Drains to win. That averages out to (guess what?) 25 levels lost, with a maximum of 40 levels. Edit: of course that does make for an expensive gem. Also, as others have said, it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect uncontrolled angels to attack an evil lich.

[keeganknorr]

I was about to say gate seems overpowered and bring up that whole mess of a debate but actually for a level 9 spell, it does the job. I'd hate for players to now use gate whenever fighting the BBG who is evil and saying a million uncontrolled solars come out.

[Green Bean]

Come to think of it, Dorukan could've just used the other feature of Gate and opened a portal directly into the Celestial Realms. The angels probably would be perfectly happy coming through of their own volition to go Lich smiting.

[SteveMB]

Which sort of begs the question about why the Gods are so relaxed about Xykon. We're given to believe that he has a reasonable chance of succeeding in his plot, getting control of a gate, and handing the Snarl over to the Dark One to use as a weapon. Why are the Gods taking that risk? If Xykon shows up at a gate and comes close to taking it, why is it a handful of summoned angels who try to stop him, rather than Thor?

One option is that the other Gods don't realize the Dark One's plan is even a possibility. That would be a little weird, it seems odd that a brand new god who's been looking at the thing for far less time has gained insights into how the Snarl works that the other Gods have missed.

Another option is that the Gods don't seriously think the plan can succeed. Maybe the Dark One's plan is a bad plan, and it is destined to fail for reasons he hasn't grasped yet. The trouble with that option is that it kind of guts the whole story if the premise world threatening evil never really was much of a threat in the first place.

I guess my basic worry is how it is that Xykon (who at best has a CR in the mid to high 20's) is playing in the God's league at all.

Humans put their own squabbles and turf-protection ahead of their common interests all the time. Pantheonds of gods (who are often depicted in the mythologies as being, if anything, less mature than humans) might well do the same.

[chibibar]

also remember that the gods in OoTS are not all knowing (but they are pretty powerful)

Xykon wants control of the gate because it will help him rule the world (so to speak) and thus won't release the snarl. Redcloak wants to control it so the Dark One can use it as bargaining chips.

Also it is possible that Durokon is level 25 (being Epic and all)

[DreadSpoon]

I've always hated the excuse "it would make for a bad story".

IMO anybody who needs to use that as justification for part of their story...has a bad story.

I'd argue that he doesn't have a bad story, he's just basing his story on a crappy game system that makes telling any kind of large-scale high-level story impossible. Resurrection by itself makes the vast majority of interesting stories irrelevant. Sure, Shojo has a reason to refuse resurrection, but most rulers wouldn't - why assassinate a king if he can just be brought back for a paltry 5,000 GP? Why should a noble worry if he or his spouse or child or other friend or relative is killed in battle? Why worry about anything when gods can just walk the earth?

A story writer has to jump through so many hoops to justify most stories in a D&D game world. Most writers don't - it's just far, far too much trouble - so you end up with stories that don't make sense because there's some D&D spell or another that can just Fix Everything(tm) that half the characters in the story could afford to have cast.

This goes back to the whole concept that D&D is broken about approximately 12th level. That's something the original designers have even stated - D&D was intended for low-mid level play. The high levels up to 20 were meant to be super-ultra-powerful level characters. Then came along all the small-weinered-losers who decided that they needed EPIC levels so that they could escape their pathetic loser lives even further. The only reason D&D has epic levels at is because said losers are willing to waste their 7-11 stock boy wages on the source books.

Have you ever run a high-level D&D campaign? If you had wizards or sorcerers (or, to a lesser extent, clerics) in the party with even a smidgeon of strategic skill, there isn't a single obstacle you could have created that they couldn't overcome with a spell or two, unless you (a) throw in anti-magic effects making those characters useless and the game boring or (b) throw in equally strategic casters which creates spell-battles that make the non-casters useless and bored. The game is just horrendously unbalanced at high levels.

That is why a story in a D&D setting is always going to suck, unless you stick to low-level characters and low-level (no save-the-world stuff) plots. The save the world stuff is also pretty important here. I've read D&D novels in which some low-level character has to save a kingdom or the world, which negates a lot of the high-level "doesn't make sense" non-sense. But then you get into the problem that it doesnt' make sense for the low-level character to be bothering, since the gods would just tell their epic-level Chosen to zap in and fix everything in a couple rounds.

However, Rich is telling a story set in the D&D universe. Mostly just because it makes for a lot of opportunities to make fun of D&D.

Just like you have to accept everytime he breaks the fourth wall, or his characters reference mechanics or have other "bad role-playing" conversations, you have to accept that Rich is going to ignore how easy it would be to fix everything using common sense application of the D&D mechanics and setting elements.

[lokycat]

I'd argue that he doesn't have a bad story, he's just basing his story on a crappy game system that makes telling any kind of large-scale high-level story impossible. Resurrection by itself makes the vast majority of interesting stories irrelevant. Sure, Shojo has a reason to refuse resurrection, but most rulers wouldn't - why assassinate a king if he can just be brought back for a paltry 5,000 GP? Why should a noble worry if he or his spouse or child or other friend or relative is killed in battle? Why worry about anything when gods can just walk the earth?........ext ext ext

Wow:smallconfused: You most dislike D&D, never had a GOOD GM or dont know how to make good challenges as a GM.:smallamused:

I disagree with you to a point, yes it is HARD to make a epic Lv champaign challenging, but not "IMPOSSIBLE" and the game is not broken pass 12Lv like you say.
It dos get harder to make good challenges for a party of 16+Lvs(not 12Lv like you say) but that is part of the fun for a GM. There are plenty of challenges for a epic Lv party like for...
Example: Getting them stranded in a another plane of existence. Sure there is Planeshift but you need to give them some goals to complete in that plane before leaving. A good challenge has to have more then a epic battle.
Another Example: We were fighting Shar's avatar and the goal was not to defeat the avatar but to save a child held captive. It was very hard to do and it was mainly a caster battle but the melee guys could do a lot of damage and they were far from bored as you say.

[Raeden]

Dorukan said he used the entire time his castle was besieged to prepare for the battle with Xykon. Don't you think an (near) epic-level wizard who has days, maybe weeks to prepare, couldn't come up with a way to convince a lot of angels to attack the evil lich?

And I don't think Dorukan was level 25. He would have crushed Xykon easily, because to me it doesn;t look like Xykon is level 25 or maybe one or two levels away from that.

[factotum]

Sure, Shojo has a reason to refuse resurrection, but most rulers wouldn't - why assassinate a king if he can just be brought back for a paltry 5,000 GP? Why should a noble worry if he or his spouse or child or other friend or relative is killed in battle? Why worry about anything when gods can just walk the earth?


The Gods don't walk the earth--we've never seen them do so, as far as I know. As for 5000gp being "paltry", back when I used to play D&D (which was a LONG time ago) you could pretty much buy a full-sized sailing ship for that sort of money...it's not a paltry amount by anybody's lights.

[Charity322]

and most importantly it would make for a lousy story. Rich isn't going to do something like 'oh yeah and all the gods come down and wipe out xykon'.

Look at Real Life. How much suffering and crap goes on that God does nothing about? Maybe the gods just don't care.

[KillerCardinal]

Dorukan said he used the entire time his castle was besieged to prepare for the battle with Xykon. Don't you think an (near) epic-level wizard who has days, maybe weeks to prepare, couldn't come up with a way to convince a lot of angels to attack the evil lich?

And I don't think Dorukan was level 25. He would have crushed Xykon easily, because to me it doesn;t look like Xykon is level 25 or maybe one or two levels away from that.

Well, as for his preparations, I'd imagine that his preparations were more for Xykon coming in to him, not for Dorukan coming out to fight Xykon. Thus he was expecting to fight on turf of his own choosing which could have lots of nifty traps for Xykon, not outside his keep. Thus he probably had the wrong set of spells prepared for FULL epic level smackdown outside:smallcool:

[theinsulabot]

that and durokon may have simply been out of shape. that many years out of the game, he may of just misplayed his cards, so xykon took him down even if durokon had a level edge

[GoC]

Why didn't he gate in 40 solars?

[Green Bean]

Why didn't he gate in 40 solars?

Because he's lactose intolerant. :smallwink:

[Drider]

"Plot device, Mr.Frodo. Plot device"

[Fighteer]

The deific balance of power is probably the most commonly used explanation for why the gods don't just step in and nuke anything that vaguely threatens them. If the good gods smack down any evildoer that comes up with a credible plot to destroy the world, the evil gods would be free to start stomping on cities, and things would rapidly devolve from there.

The whole point of having free-willed mortals in a world of divine beings is to use those mortals as proxies for the gods' own conflicts. God A may hate God B's guts, but if he simply marches over to God B's domain and throws down the gauntlet, there's a good chance that one or both could get destroyed, along with the world they worked so hard to create in the first place. Divine world-building requires a mutual agreement to allow the world to evolve without direct intervention except in the most extreme of circumstances.

In fact, the World 1.0 (as expressed in the Crayons of Time) was created without such an agreement, and it was the gods' own struggles with each other that unleashed the Snarl in the first place. They can't fight each other directly, or there's a good chance that they'll simply bust it loose again and then they will all die.

As far as Xykon himself goes, it seems to me that having Dorukan unleash a thousand angry planetars through his Gate would have broken the divine pact. There would have been nothing stopping the Evil gods from doing the same in return, and things would have rapidly devolved into chaos. Remember that, so far, Xykon and Redcloak have been stopped from controlling any of the gates without overt divine interference. The Gods are probably betting that he will be dealt with by mortal agencies, up until the very last moment. Certainly if, somewhere around strip 1000, Team Evil stands triumphantly astride the last gate and utters the final word to unleash the Snarl, I'd expect some direct divine action, but not until then.

[NerfTW]

On the topic of D&D being "unbalanced" because of the gods, what is stopping you from simply house ruling the spells and gods out? Just because Forgotten Realms is a massive stew of paradoxes and contradictions doesn't mean you can't just say "In my story, the gods can't intervene in mortal affairs."

In fact, that's why they created clerics, according to SoD. The gods don't intervene directly, which is why the Dark One can't just pop over to one of the gates, summon two goblin spellcasters, and do the ceremony himself.

Also, you can't just keep resurrecting a king after he's been assasinated, or he'd eventually be a level 1 commoner, getting killed by any old assasin with a spoon to the heart. Plus, draining the kingdom's money. As V told Belkar, the spell may be common, but where would you get 5000 gp in diamonds. Just because you have the 5000 gp, doesn't mean you can get the diamonds.