Player's Handbook Mounted Archer Help

[ChuckBarrington]

Hello there.

I'm looking for help creating a heavy-to-medium armor wearing mounted archer in a very low magic campaign. If need be, I can do light armor, but I enjoy the image of a man in plate mail standing on his mount with ridiculous a ridiculous Ride check and firing a barrage of arrows as it gallops full speed across the battlefield. Special materials like mithral and adamantine are fine, but magic items themselves seem to be restricted to whatever you can find/loot/buy/etc. in game.

It's a 15 point buy, level 14-15, and I'm making this character as a backup given that my current character is in danger of being backhanded out of existence very soon. Oddly enough, I'd also like for this man to dance like a pro :smalltongue:, so if we can pack that in there as well, even better. Jimmy the Mark, archer extraordinaire and also part-time breakdancer. Anything that helps him hit a man-sized target at 2 miles is very much appreciated.

EDIT: I do get one free attribute point from a background choice, but they all come with some kind of drawback except boosting int. Boosting dex gives me a -1 on some rogue-related tasks oddly enough. Boosting str will also net me either a -1 on some rogue skills or a -2 on party face skills.

[Eldariel]

Cleric and Ranger are your two reasonable options. Ranger doesn't do Heavy Armor though - and given the Dex you'll have, reasonably speaking your Heavy Armor should probably be Celestial Armor [DMG] anyways (failing that, Mithril Fullplate and Mithril Breastplate are about equal). Looks like a Chainmail but is light as a feather, giving you best of both worlds.

Ranger gets an animal companion you can reasonably use as a mount. It's otherwise weak but it can take some hits particularly in armor and if it dies, you just get another one. Cleric can use Planar Ally, Phantom Steed, Animate Dead/Rebuke Undead (Zombie Dragon strikes your fancy?), Polymorph Any Object [Trickery Domain] to produce a mount. You could even PAO a body into a Dragon and Animate that.

I'd say Cleric has a clear edge in being able to craft magic items and buff themselves (Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon are awesome, and in combat you Quicken Divine Power and Divine Favor while full attacking). You can also be Polymorph Any Objected all day. Just cast it on yourself twice and the duration is permanent. This allows you to make up for mediocre physical stats.

Cleric lacks Ride in class but you don't really need more than +19 so it's easy enough crossclass. One fun option could be veing Cleric/Thaumaturgist [Dungeon Master's Guide] and using your Contingent Summons on your highest level Summon Monster essentially enabling you to "whistle" (or whatever you want, free action anyways) for your mount each fight. BAB loss doesn't really matter since you have Divine Power anyways.

Far as dancing goes, Bard is the only class tha really does it well (they can Perform: Dance their Bardic Music). Bard Archer isn't impossible either but they can't get mounts quite that easily. Ranger lacks Perform as does Cleric, but you can take levels in Loremaster [Dungeon Master's Guide] as a Cleric to get it in class and in general, to get more skillpoints. Cleric 7/Loremaster 2/Thaumaturgist 5/Loremaster -> is great. That said, probably easier to just go Cleric 10/Thaumaturgist 5.


I'd recommend:
Middle-Aged (+1 mental stats, -1 physicals) Human Cleric

15 Wis (6 points), 10 Cha (1 point), 10 Int (q point), 7 Str (0 points), 13 Dex (6 points), 8 Con (1 points)

All level-ups to Wis for:
7 Str
13 Dex
8 Con
10 Int
18 Wis
10 Cha

Domains: Trickery and War (worship an ideal of the Dancing Archer if working with core deities - Ehlonna is the only god with Longbow as favoured weapon and she offers no War domain)

Feats:
1. Skill Focus: Knowledge (any)
H. Quicken Spell
D. MWP: Longbow
D. WF: Longbow
3. Craft Wondrous Items
6. Craft Magic Arms & Armor
9. Spell Focus: Conjuration
12. Point Blank Shot
Thaumaturgist. Augment Summoning
15. Rapid Shot
Loremaster bonus (Applied Knowledge Secret - you can use Polymorph Any Object into Illithid or something to get more Int bonus). Precise Shot
18. Improved Precise Shot/whatever

Skills: Max 2 Knowledges up until level 7 (I recommend Religion and Arcana) and Ride. On Loremaster levels, put everything into Perform: Dance. Rest of the time, focus on Concentration, Knowledges, Diplomacy and whatever the hell you feel like.


Then use Polymorph Any Object on yourself. Turn into a Girallon (or some other biped with good Dex, Str and Con) and recast the spell during its duration to make the second casting permanent (you might need to craft a Pearl of Power 8 for this). You can't turn into an Outsider form but anything else is fair game. Then get an underling (Animate Dead is a good source) and Polymorph them into a mount for yourself, e.g. some younger Dragon or Roc or such. Or use Thaumaturgist' Contingent Summon ability or the Planar Ally spell or craft an Onyx Steed or whatever.

You'll be more than fine. Buff yourself in combat with Quickened spells (Divine Favor & Divine Power are must as are all day buffs like Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Heroes' Feast, etc. - 10 min/levels like Air Walk, Freedom of Movement & co. are solid too), get a Large Composite Bow for your Divine Powered Girallon Strength and another for your Girallon only Strength. You could also craft Strand of Prayer Beads and use the Bead of Karma to buff your caster level giving your weapon bigger bonuses. Mislead makes you invisible, allowing you to attack flat-footed enemies

You lack the mounted archery feats but they're just penalties so big enough bonuses make up for them. And if your mount is fast (Dragon or something), you can just have it take single move actions each turn as then you have no penalties. If your mount can't fly, you can just cast Air Walk.

Craft yourself a +1 Seeking bow with some damage bonuses and craft some +1 Bane Arrows (quite cheap) just picking the right one based on what you're fighting. Don't forget to dance in the saddle while firing and in general.
Oh, and spread the love! You can buff allies' armor and weapons and use auras like Magic Circle against Evil and Prayer to help the home team. If they have the funds, craft some Pearls of Power and use those to buff them further.


EDIT: Oh yeah, Loremaster abilities! Get Instant Mastery, Applicable Knowledge and next take Weapon Trick. You can actually save skill points by using Instant Mastery on Ride to get 4 ranks without having to take ranks in it thus avoiding the extra cost of taking cross-class ranks. And bonuses to attack are always nice. You get +1 to hit from WF, +1 from Weapon Trick, +3 from Divine Favor and full BAB from Divine Power. +3-+5 weapon from Greater Magic Weapon and a decent Dex from Polymorph (if you get an item, get +6 Dex). Total attack bonus of 16 + 4 + 1 + 1 + 3 + 6 quite soon; +31 total, which is not bad at all for a level 16 characters. Damage would be 2d6 + 4 Enchantment + 3 Luck + 9 Strength, which is not bad at all either.

Girallon Int is quite low but it's not a real problem; you need higher Int only while taking Loremaster levels. Most important is having high Dex and decent Strength for the bow.

[Ivanhoe]

As Eldariel said, within these parameters a human cleric with polymorph any object is a solid choice.
However, you should not take the girallon form since it means the archer's intelligence drops to 10. Take a stone giant instead.
And do not forget that you lose your human racial feat when polymorphing (and arguably skill point bonus besides; ask your GM how he sees it), so take as that bonus feat something you only need in humanoid form or a not that important feat.

edit: if you are bent on the image of a rider in plate armor, you can use a hat of disguise to achieve that even with a celestial armor (self created with your domain spell, or just cast the domain spell on a regular basis).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Paladin? Paladin gets a solid mount, and it's not like you'll need bonus feats by this point. Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Mounted Combat, and... that's about it for feats you actually need, and you have 1-2 available if you want... I guess Mounted Archery and Far Shot, maybe.

Any way you slice it, you'll probably want to be a Halfling with a medium-sized mount; that way you'll fit in more places. Get mithril plate mail so you can use as much of that Dex bonus as you can, and invest in a decent Str and a composite bow.

[Eldariel]

Paladin? Paladin gets a solid mount, and it's not like you'll need bonus feats by this point. Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Mounted Combat, and... that's about it for feats you actually need, and you have 1-2 available if you want... I guess Mounted Archery and Far Shot, maybe.

Any way you slice it, you'll probably want to be a Halfling with a medium-sized mount; that way you'll fit in more places. Get mithril plate mail so you can use as much of that Dex bonus as you can, and invest in a decent Str and a composite bow.

Sadly 15 point buy Paladin is a bit...

[Menzath]

Well if you are wearing heavy armor, you'll most likely get zen archery feat and make Dex a dump stat.
Because of that wisdom based classes (cleric, ranger) look to be the top choices. Sadly paladin also falls into this category.(it's a trap)

Also of note out of core, psionics.
PsiWars are the best alternative to cleric imo, clerics are still better towards the end, but this is a close second, especially since you get enough bonus feats to not stress and have some left over for fun. The mediocre skill points do hurt. On this point being human is almost a must.

[Eldariel]

Well if you are wearing heavy armor, you'll most likely get zen archery feat and make Dex a dump stat.
Because of that wisdom based classes (cleric, ranger) look to be the top choices. Sadly paladin also falls into this category.(it's a trap)

Sadly Zen Archery isn't a core feat.

[Menzath]

Sadly Zen Archery isn't a core feat.

Ah I missed that.
A core only mounted Archer, in med-hvy armor? Yikes.
I had a buddy play a mostly core fighter Archer that did amazingly, but he wore light armor for the higher AC total.
Yeah if it's core only I would say no to paladin and ranger, you get to MAD with those.
I'd have to double check core spells for bard, but with mithral medium armor and the right spells they might work. Other than that, yeah cleric is the best choice.

[Eldariel]

Ah I missed that.
A core only mounted Archer, in med-hvy armor? Yikes.
I had a buddy play a mostly core fighter Archer that did amazingly, but he wore light armor for the higher AC total.
Yeah if it's core only I would say no to paladin and ranger, you get to MAD with those.
I'd have to double check core spells for bard, but with mithral medium armor and the right spells they might work. Other than that, yeah cleric is the best choice.

Sadly Bards lack shapechanging magic so they're seriously boned by 15 point buy - Inspire Courage is nice but not nearly enough. Even straight Wood Elf Fighter could have like 16 Str, 19 (+3 levels) Dex, 9 Con, 6 Int, 8 Wis/Cha at best. No way that's gonna work particularly since you need more than 1 skill so 6 Int isn't okay (you can trade any points at a 1-for-1 basis here since that buy is 6/6/3/etc.). 15pb is equivalent to standard array or 13/12/11/10/9/8 - or indeed 11/11/11/10/10/10.

[Menzath]

True bards don't get some of the better buffs that clerics would, but dem skill points.
Also phantom steed as a lvl 3 spell. Good ole disposable horse's.
Inspire courage lends itself more to a huge party buff rather than a self buff, but it still helps. And with bard buffs and BFC I don't think you would be to far behind a cleric.

What's great is all you would really need is a fairly average stat array and maybe a 13 in Cha starting to be viable.

Again is this the best? Probably not, but still viable. Missing out on poly spells is the only big bad thing really. But damn can you dance.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sadly 15 point buy Paladin is a bit...
I mean, 15pb anything is neigh-impossible. Like, that's worse than the elite array. At level 14, you might have 16/12/12/10/8/8.

[Eldariel]

I mean, 15pb anything is neigh-impossible. Like, that's worse than the elite array. At level 14, you might have 16/12/12/10/8/8.

Well, if you have access to Wild Shape, Polymorph or the like you're more than fine. If not for the requirements of archery feats and skill points in this case, you could do 16 Casting Stat, 12 Con (or 17 casting stat with middle-aged category) and dump the rest and be golden. First levels are a bit rough but the high save DCs help. Alternatively you could go like Gray Elf with 18 Int, 15 Dex and dump everything else and just rely on acting first - but higher Con and planning for Polymorph (Any Object) is pretty solid as well. But yeah, with low PB base class HD certainly becomes more important.

[ChuckBarrington]

First, thank you all for the replies!

I feel that I should have explained the very low magic a little better though. Story-wise, any cleric or wizard would have been part of the elven space nazi regime, and I assume sorcerers were hunted to extinction. If a caster I must be, then druid/ranger/paladin/bard are my choices. I had a sample build laid out, but it's literally 15 levels of straight fighter. Archery related feats and pretty much every level, including GWF and GWS for the longbow, because you can use a composite longbow mounted for some reason. Animal affinity for the boost so by 15th I come out with +26 to Ride.

EDIT: Other, probably important thing I forgot to mention. Using pathfinder point buy, which is base ten instead of 8.

[Menzath]

...the elven space nazi regime...

If a caster I must be, then druid/ranger/paladin/bard are my choices. I had a sample build laid out, but it's literally 15 levels of straight fighter. Archery related feats and pretty much every level, including GWF and GWS for the longbow, because you can use a composite longbow mounted for some reason. Animal affinity for the boost so by 15th I come out with +26 to Ride.

That first part is gold.

How could I forget the most broken of them all, druid!
Even with low pb all you need is con and Wis.
And an ape wearing ironwood armor shooting a bow from atop a megaraptor, how is that not cool? With core only you can't pull animal companion int tricks, but it will be one of the hardest to kill mounts around.

Now fighter and ranger may be better in straight archery, but all the buffs and class features(options) you get from druid or cleric will eventually out weigh that from about lvl 3+ .
And paladins with that low pb and no splat books may feel very underwhelming.

[Elkad]

I get ditching Tier1/2 Classes. (Though leaving the T1 Druid in is insanity)
I get running Core to keep options down (yes, it doesn't really limit power, but it does make running the game easier as the DM)
I even get low-magic.

But low pointbuy is just terrible.

All that together just screams "Have the whole party make Druids!" 8,8,12,10,18,10 for stats or something.
Get by on Animal Companions, Entangle, and Slings to L3,
Fog Cloud, Flame Blade and SNA2 get you to 5.
Then you all turn into bears and wreck faces for the rest of the game.

Which doesn't fit your request even in the least, but maybe later you can turn into an Ape or something that can hold a bow and get it then.

[ChuckBarrington]

That image is now cemented in my mind. Any tips on how to go about building it so I don't either fall off or take a hideous penalty while riding my death raptor mount? I almost feel bad for my DM, two of the other players are druids, but they aren't really spell fanatics. One likes to turn into a dire bear and slap people around, and the other likes to turn into a dire wolf and trip things.

[Elkad]

Basically you stay on the ground the first few levels.
Ride is a class skill for Druid. And 5 ranks in Handle Animal gets you another +2 on Ride checks.

You only need a 10 to fight from horse(raptor)back. At L5 you turn into a Baboon and have 8(ranks)+2(synergy)+2(baboon dex) to Ride. Plenty.
If you want a bow, you'll need proficiency. Elf, dip Fighter, etc. If you dip you violate the "never give up caster levels" rule, but rules are meant to be broken.

Gnome (or Strongheart Halfling if you aren't in core) - Druid5, Ftr1, back to Druid? Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (first few levels your riding dog does the fighting, you jump off when combat starts and just plink at stuff with your sling and cast spells).
At 6 you take Natural Spell, the only required feat for a Druid. And use your bonus Fighter feat for Mounted Combat or something.
Now you shift to Baboon (15str/14dex - Medium), jump on your Large Bison/Dinosaur/DireBat, cast 1 good spell at the beginning of combat, and then Ride/Fly (at +13) around shooting stuff. You've only got 5 hours of shifting right now, so be prepared to switch modes.
At 7 you get your 2nd Wildshape, so you are good for 12 hours a day.
Buy a bow and some hide armor sized for your Baboon Form.

I'm sure someone else is better at this than me.

[Menzath]

You pretty much covered it elkad.
The only bits to add would be that, you don't get a huge sized animal companion till druid 10, wild shaping into an ape is druid lvl 8. Fighter gives you the weapon and armor proficiencies you need.
And for armor you just have to craft it with wood working, or use a wood shape spell(2nd lvl spell), then once every few days cast ironwood on it(lvl 6 spell) also works for animal companion barding.
Looks like not alot of amazing buffs for core, but battle field control out the wazoo. Having your enemies being sitting ducks is always nice. Getting reduce animal so your companion can come with you without squeezing into places is nice, also being able to pick it up in ape form and climb with it.

Wall of thorns is brutal to non-casters.

Control winds stops armies, and at higher levels destroys forts and towns. Summon nature's ally, while not always the best, can be better than using a cure with the same spell slot depending on what you summon and how you use it, always look at the stat block of everything you can summon.
Remember you can share spells if you cast and stay within 5ft(riding?) Of your animal companion. That's a great 2 for 1 on spells like cats grace and stoneskin.
Can't seem to think of any other advice at the moment. That and I'm passing out. Hope my rambling on play tips is somewhat useful, I'm sure the druid handbook goes into more detail(thank you eggy), but as far as core that looks to be all I got.

[Eldariel]

Druid is more than fine, though I'd just use Elf or plain take MWP: Longbow. Hell, take Heavy Armor Proficiency if you want it while at it because why not. More Druid is always better because every level brings you closer to Shapechange, which lets you be an angel riding a dragon or a titan riding a purple worm or any such. It is the God of buffspells. Sadly you can't make use of Greater Magic Fang but might as well buff your companion.

As it stands, Dire Ape is a good form though you could always look into plants and elemental forms. Wildshape doesn't grant you the Animal type but you can ask the DM. If you do get it, Animal Growth yourself and your companion for big Ape riding gargantuan Dinosaur. Shapechange does grant types though. Also, don't forget Bull's Strength and its ilk: without magic items the stat buffs are nice. Other than that, Barkskin and armored mount is good. Also, Summon Nature's Ally for creatures with poison and use those to poison your arrows; as you are poison immune, no risk of poisoning yourself.

EDIT: Sadly Elvencraft (Longbow that also acts as a Quarterstaff in melee) is not Core as Druids have some useful spells for Staves, namely Shillelagh, Spellstaff and Changestaff (though Changestaff is nothing to write home about). If you have a big enough bow, I suppose you could try to wing firing a Quarterstaff (probably as an improvised arrow with like 10' increment at best) to use Shillelagh but as bow damage is determined by bow size, that'd be a waste.

Perhaps you could wing some stone arrowheads and casting Magic Stone on them though. That might actually be decent enough. Other than that you're better at debuffing and summoning than buffing.


Self-defense though is supereasy with Antilife Shell, Reverse Gravity, Entangle, Control Winds, Wall of Stone, etc. Keep the enemy within arrow's reach.

[ChuckBarrington]

Having never played a druid before, I'd never looked up exactly what shapechange does. It's horrifying. I'm going to have brush up on my creature knowledge methinks. Shame I can't turn into the tarrasque, but hey, you win some you lose some. Any suggestions for things with retardedly high dex/str to make the most out of a big composite bow?

[Anthrowhale]

Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor) seems to be the best archer platform in core. You get Dex 25, Str 35, True Seeing and Spot+8.

The best PAO-accessible form seems to be Horned Devil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#hornedDevilCornugon) with Dex 25 & Str 31. However, this requires outsider type which is LA+1 (Tiefling/Aasimar) in core.

It's not clear a Girallon can wield weapons in their claws. A Stone Giant is probably (?) the best available general purpose PAO archer form in core.

[Eldariel]

Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor) seems to be the best archer platform in core. You get Dex 25, Str 35, True Seeing and Spot+8.

The best PAO-accessible form seems to be Horned Devil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#hornedDevilCornugon) with Dex 25 & Str 31. However, this requires outsider type which is LA+1 (Tiefling/Aasimar) in core.

It's not clear a Girallon can wield weapons in their claws. A Stone Giant is probably (?) the best available general purpose PAO archer form in core.

Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) with 37 Str, 27 Dex isn't awful either. This list (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9399.msg151820#msg151820) shows everything you can replicate. Sadly Solars (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) don't have the ability to make their bow Slaying so unless they come prepackaged with the equipment you'll be lacking. Though you could argue the bow and the sword are a natural ability. Great form either way in terms of defenses. Arguably you get Cleric-casting too.

This list (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9399.msg151820#msg151820) contains all the Supernatural Abilities you can access too. It's a very convenient list; an infinite horde of Dread Wraiths (Nightwing/walker/crawler with Call Undead, turn into something else, repeat next round), Dominates (Aboleth & al.), Disintegrate, Charm, Telekinesis, etc. (Beholder), Etherealness and Astral Projection (Nightmare), it's great. Also turning into something like Dread Wraith enables you to easily lurk inside objects to attack people from angles they can't fight back from. But you'll probably be fine just turning into an Outsider form like Pit Fiend, Balor, Solar or company and shooting a bunch of appropriately sized arrows.

[Menzath]

Although it has much lower Dex, a marilith isn't too bad of a choice with 6 arms, at will magic weapon and align weapon and blade barrier for bfc, becomes a better choice if you get it's multiweapon fighting feats.

Until then dire ape is probably going to be the go to form with wildshape.

[ChuckBarrington]

6 arms... Three bows?

[Eldariel]

Although it has much lower Dex, a marilith isn't too bad of a choice with 6 arms, at will magic weapon and align weapon and blade barrier for bfc, becomes a better choice if you get it's multiweapon fighting feats.

Shapechange doesn't grant Spell-like abilities of the assumed form. Only the supernatural and extraordinary ones. Which is good - it'd be even more broken otherwise.

[Knaight]

If the DMG is also allowed, you might benefit from taking Hierophant 1 at level 20. It's counter-intuitive, but you don't lose a caster level, you already have level 9 spells, and you can give Wildshape to your animal companion. Normally that's not a good deal, but if you're mount focused being able to change your mount's form to suit you can be pretty useful. Plus, if you're being an archer anyways losing a few spell slots matters much less than it otherwise would.

[Menzath]

Shapechange doesn't grant Spell-like abilities of the assumed form. Only the supernatural and extraordinary ones. Which is good - it'd be even more broken otherwise.

You are right, I got su and sp mixed up there in my sleep deprived state. Enough of this then, I'll take a look tomorrow.

[zlefin]

are you allowed to make your own magic items if you take the requisite feats?

also, to be clear, you're using pathfinder point buy, but the game is otherwise 3.5?
and what books/sources are allowed?

[ChuckBarrington]

PF point buy, mostly 3.5 with some pathfinder material thrown in. Player's Handbook is the only thing allowed for character creation For.prestige classes and whatnot, have to find someone to train you. Magic item creation is a probably. If I wanted a feat from another book/source, I'd have to ask the DM, see what he says. I asked him about the Item Familiar feat for my current character, and he said that if I got a wizard or cleric to bind it to me in a ritual then I could make it happen.

[PacMan2247]

If you're going to go druid, you might want to consider being a Halfling with a dire bat animal companion. Dip whatever class you want for proficiency with your bow of choice, and you've got a solid platform for raining down arrows or spells, and the halfling's small size and +2 Dex bonus is like a free +2 to hit.

[ChuckBarrington]

Ah, but wouldn't wildshape make that a moot point?

[Menzath]

That depends, the wild shape form you would use till you can assume large size would be a baboon with str15 and dex14, medium sized.
The only reason I can see to not use that for is if you do not have a composite bow and do not need to utilize that higher str score, and if your dexterity score mod is 1 or more.
That would net you a total of at least 1 higher on attacks than if you used wildshape.
But starting as a halfing using a riding dog or such as a mount is still a good way to get through the first few levels. Asides from not having bow proficiency without taking a feat.

[Eldariel]

That depends, the wild shape form you would use till you can assume large size would be a baboon with str15 and dex14, medium sized.
The only reason I can see to not use that for is if you do not have a composite bow and do not need to utilize that higher str score, and if your dexterity score mod is 1 or more.
That would net you a total of at least 1 higher on attacks than if you used wildshape.
But starting as a halfing using a riding dog or such as a mount is still a good way to get through the first few levels. Asides from not having bow proficiency without taking a feat.

He's starting play on levels 14-15 so anything short of Dire Ape is kinda moot.

[ChuckBarrington]

I figured human would be best, the extra feat and skill points making up for a score increase or small size. Certainly were I to be starting at lower levels I'd want to be harder to hit, but with the weirdness provided by wildshape and Shapechange, I don't think that'll be too much of a problem.