Can the Order of the Stick function without Roy?

[Charles Phipps]

It's a tough question. Roy provided the motivating force for the OOtS at the start because the stakes seemed to be pretty low. Basically, he was playing schoolteacher to a bunch of people with little reason to hang together.

I think he's become Gandalf in that respect that the OOTS now hangs together because they've become friends and all grown together. Elan and Haley are in love, Durkon will never abandon his friends, V will want to see the world saved for the glories of elfkind, and Belkar loves Haley.

He's done a very good job. The only new member of the OOTS that doesn't look like he'd stay with them indefinitely is the current meat-shield replace in the newly PCed Hinjo.

[Admiral_Kelly]

and Belkar loves Haley.Ya right. Lusts over her? Probably. Love? No.

[bluish_wolf]

More like Belkar doesn't want the Mark of Justice to go off.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

The Order can but I don't think the story can.

This story is Roy's story. The rest are important, but ultimatly every character is there to support Roy. It would be like Luke Skywalker dying in the sandpeople attack, and the droids being returned by Obi-Wan.

Or Sam taking the Ring to Mt. Doom after Frodo died from the Ring Wrath's attack before they got to Elrond's.

For Roy to die at this point would be like the demotivator poster Failure:

http://www.demotivators.com/fail24x30pri.html

So I'd rather wait for Luke and Leah to get Roy out of the carbonite, or whatever...

[Ithekro]

I think this depends on exactly what story type is being told. Since we seem to have people on both (or more) sides of the fence, I think we can safely say that we have no real clue what story this will turn into.

We have the "Roy will stay dead because he isn't needed" group.

We have the "Roy will stay dead because he is needed as a spirit guide for Elan" group.

We have the "I hate Roy, I'm glad he's dead. Go Xykon!" group.

We have the "Roy needs to be raised because he's the core of the story" group.

We have the "Roy needs to be raised because you don't keep the main character dead" group.

"We have the "Roy needs to be raised, but not for a while since killing the main character and bringing him right back cheapens the story" group.

We have the "Roy needs to be raised, but for humor effects based on D&D rules" group.

And we have the "Roy needs to be raised but Miko and/or Eugene is also in the body for comedy" group.

So we have a lot of factions here. No telling which one will actually happen.

[yoshi927]

Wait, there are people who think ELAN is going to take over as leader? :smalleek:

[Querzis]

Wait, there are people who think ELAN is going to take over as leader? :smalleek:

Yes there are insane people everywhere, just dont look at them and dont listen to them and you'll be fine. By the way Surfing Halforc, Sam was the main character of LoTR (or at the very least Tolkien said he was in his books but the movies are a bit different) and he would have done way better job if he didnt had to save Frodo or carry him.

Anyway, can they fonction without Roy? For some time yeah probably, as long as V and Belkar dont kill each other...which is actually likely to happen but whatever. Do they want to? No, so they are gonna raise him and lets just say its incredibly easy to resurect someone in D&D so they are gonna be able to do it, hell even with just a small part of the body they could do it!

[Charles Phipps]

Wait, there are people who think ELAN is going to take over as leader? :smalleek:

why not?

Elan is aware that they're characters in a story. He seems best suited for the role.

;-)

[yoshi927]

why not?

Elan is aware that they're characters in a story. He seems best suited for the role.

;-)In the immortal words of Dark Mistress Shadowgale, "This is the guy who decided to say the word "blah" 497 times in a row just because it had never been done before."

Roy was the leader, after the contracts, partly because he was the best tactical thinker. I would not put it past Elan to struggle with tying his shoes.

Frankly, someone with a major Intelligence penalty is not going to become leader where there are choices like Hinjo, Haley, or even Durkon. In fact, not only does he have an Intelligence penalty, but a Wisdom penalty. And, therefore, and from other evidence, he's gullible. VERY gullible.

[Kioran]

Elan is no leader of men. Certainly not. He doesn´t have the power to reign in V, let alone real hardcore characters like Belkar (absolutely no disciplin, low loyalty) or Miko (too much Inititative, strong convictions). Okay, Miko isn´t, and probably won´t be a member, but he´d have to deal with Belkar and V regularly. Haley could probably reign them in for a while, with difficulty, but she doesn´t have the clear head and drive for it (remember her breakdown after Roy died?).
Durkon could, but he doesn´t want the job. He´d strenghten the less suited Haley, but that´s about it.

They need Roy back as a leader, sooner or later. Haley and Durkon could keep the shebang going for a while, but not indefinitely. Besides, a good portion of their combat capabilities have dies as well, and there´s no other secondary character around to pick up the slack.

Besides, Roy is the coolest of the OoTS, and quite a lot of people want him back. It´s okay if that takes some time though......

[Hyozo]

The question is not CAN Elan lead them, it is would/should Elan lead them. His ability to lead them is determined mainly by their loyalty to him which, as I see it, is actually GREATER than their loyalty to Roy. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html) If he would or should lead them is uncertain and, in my oppinion, the answer is no.

[yoshi927]

The question is not CAN Elan lead them, it is would/should Elan lead them. His ability to lead them is determined mainly by their loyalty to him which, as I see it, is actually GREATER than their loyalty to Roy. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html) If he would or should lead them is uncertain and, in my oppinion, the answer is no.I don't think that's a sign that they have greater loyalty to Elan. Everyone has things that they aren't willing to do, and for them it was leaving one of their comrades in the clutches of bandits. For instance, even Miko would do the same thing to Shojo (before she thought he had commited treason) if he asked her to take an action against what she considers the gods' will.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

By the way Surfing Halforc, Sam was the main character of LoTR (or at the very least Tolkien said he was in his books but the movies are a bit different) and he would have done way better job if he didnt had to save Frodo or carry him.



You're gonna have to show me your source on that one. I've read the books several times, and Frodo was the protagonist, with Sam as his trusty sidekick. I haven't read all the commentary on the LotR as written (and let's face it, people do their Doctorate on that set of books!), so I might have missed something, but the LotR was Frodo's story, even though others ended up "greater" than he did.

[Aris Katsaris]

You're gonna have to show me your source on that one.

Here you go:

"I think the simple 'rustic' love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere elaborated) is
absolutely essential to the study of his (the chief hero's) character, and
to the theme of the relation of ordinary life (breathing, eating, working,
begetting) and quests, sacrifice, causes, and the 'longing for Elves', and
sheer beauty."
Letters of JRR Tolkien, #131


I've read the books several times, and Frodo was the protagonist, with Sam as his trusty sidekick.

And yet, it's Sam who returns home to his wife and family at the end of the book and says "I'm back". It's Sam whose viewpoint we're seeing when at last the Ring is destroyed. It's through Sam, not Frodo, that we witness the crucial moments of Gollum's struggle when he debates with himself.

It is *Sam* who wants to go and see the Elves, it's not Frodo (who was content to remain in the Shire had he not been forced to leave it).

Tolkien also originally had an Epilogue written wholly devoted to showing us Sam and his family, 10-15 years later -- he decided to leave it out, but still, the point remains about which characters he felt were crucial.

In a story filled with kings and wizards and warriors, it was the humblest species of them all, the hobbits that had the central spot, and among the hobbits it was the humblest character of them all, *Sam* that had the central spot in Tolkien's own view.

Yes, he was the sidekick. What makes you think that the sidekick can't be the central character?

Tolkien also stated that had Gollum managed to make his redemption stick, Gollum would have become the central character in the last volume himself as he struggled with his desire for both the ring and for loyalty - eventually himself destroying the ring by taking it and voluntarily jumping into the flames. Not to be, as he faltered back into villainy, but still.

[Aris Katsaris]

Yes there are insane people everywhere, just dont look at them and dont listen to them and you'll be fine. By the way Surfing Halforc, Sam was the main character of LoTR (or at the very least Tolkien said he was in his books but the movies are a bit different) and he would have done way better job if he didnt had to save Frodo or carry him.

Since the sarcasm here seems directed at me (who brought up Tolkien's views on the centrality of Sam), let me respond by saying that I *never* said Sam would have done a better job by himself, and I *never* said Elan can become leader of the group.

What I said is that "leader of the group" and "central character" need not be one and the same. That's the very point of the humility that Tolkien appreciated in Sam, and the very point of those people who appreciate Elan's understanding of his own silliness. Not sure you understand me.

Elan doesn't have leadership qualities. Sam would never have gone to Mordor without Frodo to take him there (though he was willing to continue on his own when he thought Frodo was dead). Yes, those two are both facts, but it doesn't make them dispensable characters that are merely there as appendages to Roy/Frodo, and have no other function to the story as their own people.

[maitreyi]

Why is everyone talking about Elan as if he might lead the OOTS? Durkon clearly said that Haley was the leader now that Roy was dead. Maybe there is some sexism here? :smallmad:

It would be a more interesting thing to examine why Haley would take precedence over Durkon? I would say because she is the more street smart and creative of the two. Also because she is more forward and aggressive than Durkon, who is taciturn and reserved.

[someonenonotyou]

stop with the lotr stuff
and not for long they need a meat shield
but elan could take over he's been build enough to
take over it would be cool:elan: :smile:

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Why is everyone talking about Elan as if he might lead the OOTS? Durkon clearly said that Haley was the leader now that Roy was dead. Maybe there is some sexism here? :smallmad:

It would be a more interesting thing to examine why Haley would take precedence over Durkon? I would say because she is the more street smart and creative of the two. Also because she is more forward and aggressive than Durkon, who is taciturn and reserved.

No, it's not sexism, it's the fact that there are now TWO teams, and while Haley is clearly in charge of her team, it's the other team that needs leadership.

V is highly intellegent, but lacks the "people skills" to lead. Hinjo could do the job, and clearly do a better job than Elan, but he's not a member of the OotS. Since he is needed to rally the people of Azure City, he also can't go hareing off in search of Xykon. Durkon could become the leader, but his role is more of "grandfather figure," or coach. This leaves Elan.

Elan has the natural talent to lead, but lacks the ability. But unlike charisma, leadership is a learned skill, not an inherent skill.

[yoshi927]

No, it's not sexism, it's the fact that there are now TWO teams, and while Haley is clearly in charge of her team, it's the other team that needs leadership.

V is highly intellegent, but lacks the "people skills" to lead. Hinjo could do the job, and clearly do a better job than Elan, but he's not a member of the OotS. Since he is needed to rally the people of Azure City, he also can't go hareing off in search of Xykon. Durkon could become the leader, but his role is more of "grandfather figure," or coach. This leaves Elan.

Elan has the natural talent to lead, but lacks the ability. But unlike charisma, leadership is a learned skill, not an inherent skill.Or, we could say;

Elan is charismatic enough, but he isn't smart enough. Hinjo is okay, but he's not a member of OoTS. Durkon could do it, but he's a coach. That leaves Vaarsuvius. He has the intelligence to lead, just not a good enough relationship with the others. Fortunately, relationships are changeable.


That's the same format you used; you'll find it works for any of the available options. For instance;

V is intelligent enough, but not charismatic enough. Elan isn't smart enough. Durkon is a coach figure. That leaves Hinjo. He's good enough to lead, but he's not a member. However, the best thing for him to do now is travel with them.

[Ariko]

I think this depends on exactly what story type is being told. Since we seem to have people on both (or more) sides of the fence, I think we can safely say that we have no real clue what story this will turn into.

We have the "Roy will stay dead because he isn't needed" group.

We have the "Roy will stay dead because he is needed as a spirit guide for Elan" group.

We have the "I hate Roy, I'm glad he's dead. Go Xykon!" group.

We have the "Roy needs to be raised because he's the core of the story" group.

We have the "Roy needs to be raised because you don't keep the main character dead" group.

"We have the "Roy needs to be raised, but not for a while since killing the main character and bringing him right back cheapens the story" group.

We have the "Roy needs to be raised, but for humor effects based on D&D rules" group.

And we have the "Roy needs to be raised but Miko and/or Eugene is also in the body for comedy" group.

So we have a lot of factions here. No telling which one will actually happen.

Plus one other group (though the opinion hasnt been brought up much lately, Im happy to say), that it would be bad storytelling to resurrect a dead character. Just mentioned for the sake of comepletelness :smalltongue:

[Megatron]

the newly PCed Hinjo.

Has Rich actually said Hinjo is a PC now? I've still mostly thought of him as a "very involved NPC".

[yoshi927]

If you think about it as people at a table, Roy's player needs something to play while they're resurrecting him. The best choice is Hinjo. So, my guess is that Roy's player is now playing Hinjo. Although, in OoTS world I guess it probably doesn't work that way.

[Freshmeat]

Well, for all we know Rich could borrow another page from 8-bit theater and simply not bring him back, just like black belt. Would be quite the surprise.
I wouldn't like it though. Personally, I consider Roy the funniest character in the entire comic. I'd hate to see him gone forever.

edit: typo

[silvadel]

I dont think Roy has done anything bad enough in life to be cursed with the duties of being Elan's spiritual guardian.....

Now Miko on the other hand..... :smallbiggrin:

-----

As for Roy staying dead -- I think the rest of oots has outgrown him. It needs to fly free.

[lokycat]

Well, for all we know Rich could borrow another page from 8-bit theater and simply not bring him back, just like black belt. Would be quite the surprise.

:smallmad:How dare you compare The Order of the Stick and Rich's writing to that second rate web comic?:smallmad:

8-bit is funny dont get me wrong, I reed it...but it lacks the sophisticated story and character development. Rich dos not need to take ANYTHING from that comic, The Giant is a mush bettor writer then Brian Clevinger.

[yoshi927]

:smallmad:How dare you compare The Order of the Stick and Rich's writing to that second rate web comic?:smallmad:

8-bit is funny dont get me wrong, I reed it...but it lacks the sophisticated story and character development. Rich dos not need to take ANYTHING from that comic, The Giant is a mush bettor writer then Brian Clevinger.How, in any way, is 8-Bit second rate? Dude, ask any ten people, and it's one of the best webcomics on the internet. It's better than OoTS. Yeah, I said it. :smallmad: But, neither of them are second rate at all.

[Kurald Galain]

Perhaps the question of whether the OOTS can function without Roy can be answered by pondering this question:

Can the Order of the Stick function with Roy?

:smallbiggrin:

[Charles Phipps]

8-bit is funny dont get me wrong, I reed it...but it lacks the sophisticated story and character development. Rich dos not need to take ANYTHING from that comic, The Giant is a mush bettor writer then Brian Clevinger.

Dude, no need to insult Brian Clevinger just because Order of the Stick is a more involved story.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Here you go:

"I think the simple 'rustic' love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere elaborated) is
absolutely essential to the study of his (the chief hero's) character, and
to the theme of the relation of ordinary life (breathing, eating, working,
begetting) and quests, sacrifice, causes, and the 'longing for Elves', and
sheer beauty."
Letters of JRR Tolkien, #131



Well, that might be how Prof. Tolken MEANT for the story to go, but the way it ended up being written was Frodo as the protagonist, with the rest as supporting or antagonist characters.

Sam got the "Happy Ending," but the rest also gained something: Merry and Pippin grew from boys (playful) to men (responsable leaders); Gimli and Legolas set aside their prejudices to become friends, and of course Aragorn regains the crown.

Everyone in the story was focused on one task: Getting the Ring to Mt. Doom, whether it was by directly helping Frodo (Sam and arguably Gollum), or indirectly by fighting Sauron and his forces (everyone else).

Sam was a central character in the same way Aragorn was, but no matter how you slice it, LotR was Frodo's story, and OotS is Roy's story. Without Roy, there really is no story, unless you are really into avant guarde stories. OotS is (relativly) conventional, I really don't see the main character dying and never coming back.

Oh, and while I haven't read all of 8-Bit Theater, I never saw Black Belt as the main character, that role is held by either Black Mage, or Fighter. BB can die and not come back, Belkar can die and never come back, and the story will continue on without them.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

How, in any way, is 8-Bit second rate? Dude, ask any ten people, and it's one of the best webcomics on the internet. It's better than OoTS. Yeah, I said it. :smallmad: But, neither of them are second rate at all.

Ummm... I started reading 8-Bit, but never really got into it. Where does it start to get funny? :smallannoyed: I read the first 70 strips or so, and never managed more than a slight chuckle, where I've laughed out loud here.

BTW, I played (and still have!) Final Fantasy on the Nintendo. I think that's why I have the attitude that story trumps almost everything else. FF had a great story, one I'd read/play again, but I've lost track of the number of games I played, beat, and never went back to.

[David Argall]

there are now TWO teams, and while Haley is clearly in charge of her team, it's the other team that needs leadership.

V is .., but lacks ... Hinjo could .., but he's .... Durkon could , but ... This leaves Elan.


Which in turn leaves us the conclusion there will not be two teams for very long.

[Charles Phipps]

Ummm... I started reading 8-Bit, but never really got into it. Where does it start to get funny? :smallannoyed: I read the first 70 strips or so, and never managed more than a slight chuckle, where I've laughed out loud here.

I love Order of the Stick but I've had ages and ages of laughter from 8bit theatre. Bluntly, it's the "zany shock" form of humor.

[yoshi927]

Ummm... I started reading 8-Bit, but never really got into it. Where does it start to get funny? :smallannoyed: I read the first 70 strips or so, and never managed more than a slight chuckle, where I've laughed out loud here.

BTW, I played (and still have!) Final Fantasy on the Nintendo. I think that's why I have the attitude that story trumps almost everything else. FF had a great story, one I'd read/play again, but I've lost track of the number of games I played, beat, and never went back to.It started to get funny with number one. I think the problem here is that you have an emphasis on story, but I have an emphasis on jokes. By the way, if you want to read something with a good story (aka, shameless plug) Fortuna Saga (http://www.fortunasaga.com/daily.php?date=040610) is awesome. :smallbiggrin: