A RAW Gate spell is logically almost completely useless [Archive]

Renduaz

2017-09-07, 07:29 AM

The section of "Deities and other planar rulers can prevent portals created by this spell from opening in their presence or anywhere within their domains." turns what should be an amazing 9th level spell into a worthless piece of trash that relies on pure DM Fiat for 99% of the time in order to function, unlike every other 9th level spell.

"Sure", says Asmodeus while sipping a cup of wine, "I'm just going to let every would-be arcanist in every Prime Material, in Sigil, in any other plane, to summon any of my Pit Fiend Generals or other servants which they somehow got the true name of to some kind of binding circle or fray of their choosing, therefore weakening my domain against Abyssal/Celestial onslaughts, whenever they damn well please." - "Besides, it'd be a great way for them to enter the Prime Material, I mean it's not like half of my devils have Plane Shift and could send them to where I most want, oh wait, that's right, they do." - "And why won't you **** me in the ass and call it a day while you're at it." All the other deities and Elemental Lords nod their head in agreement, and it's a free-for-all Gate buffet.

Or, alternatively, "NOPE." and now your Gate spell never works except for *possibly* calling someone from the Prime Material into another Plane, or unless you've sucked up to some Planar Ruler enough to give you permission of calling upon his lessers, in which case you no longer need "Gate" in the first place since they can just join your party willingly.

"or anywhere within their domains.": Not opening the Gate in the presence of literal deities and planar rulers was fine, but Crawford should go stand in the corner and delete the latter in the next errata as soon as possible, because it's completely retarded and turns a 9th-level spell which is already hard enough to use with the "True Name" bull**** into a total trainwreck.

Sigreid

2017-09-07, 07:53 AM

I guess you will need to build alliances if you want to use the spell.

Aett_Thorn

2017-09-07, 08:10 AM

smcmike

2017-09-07, 08:16 AM

No, it's fine.

Renduaz

2017-09-07, 08:44 AM

I guess you will need to build alliances if you want to use the spell.

In which case the spell is still useless because I can just ask the planar entity I want to accompany me.

Well, you have to suspend disbelief when it comes to interdimensional travel just a bit in this game world. I mean, if Asmodeus has command of an army of devils that can just Plane Shift into the Prime Material Plane at any time, why doesn't he just send them all in at once and take over the place? I mean, legions of devils attacking basically anywhere would mean that place's destruction. So obviously they either can't or won't use this ability all of the time.

This is one of those areas of the rules/logic of the game world that the longer you think about it, the more problems you'll find with it. So it's probably just best to just focus on the various spells and what they say they do, and not worry about the fluff.

If you need a good rules explanation for it: Specific > General. General rule: Deities can block portals. Specific rule: Gate opens a portal where ever you want. Specific (Gate) > General (No Gate).

Reason he won't is which ever reason a DM gives for Elementals not invading the Prime Material, and for Celestials not showing up, and for deities not intervening, and so on. Most logical reason being that there's some kind of "mutually assured destruction" policy going on, in which if any sides launches a full-scale attack, the other side will to, and those planar rulers are facing a major risk of losing and fading from existence as opposed to continuing to rule and scheme subtly.

Regardless, there would be no reason for any planar ruler or deity to let every Wizard in the multiverse, which is potentially infinite people, to mess with their most prized servants whenever they want, instead of just blocking Gates entirely.

No, it's fine.

Great contribution.

qube

2017-09-07, 09:09 AM

Aett_Thorn

2017-09-07, 09:35 AM

Considering the Gate spell itself says

You conjure a portal linking an unoccupied space you can see within range to a precise location on a different plane of existence.
...
Deities and other planar rulers can prevent portals created by this spell from opening in their presence or anywhere within their domains.

The first line would be general, the second specific. Not the way around.

That's what I get for writing AFB and pre-coffee. My bad.

rbstr

2017-09-07, 09:41 AM

In which case the spell is still useless because I can just ask the planar entity I want to accompany me.

Having a planar entity just following you around seems a just a bit conspicuous. Plus a pit fiend or whatever is just going to tag along wherever you go?

Gate lets your Air Drop your friend from wherever to where you are.

It does also let you and anyone else travel through the portal.

90sMusic

2017-09-07, 09:49 AM

Renduaz

2017-09-07, 09:57 AM

There seem to be a bit of confusion though: Gate has two purposses. It's both
a trans planar group teleport-like spell; This use alone makes it SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful then the lvl 7 Teleport spell.
a summon spell for someone you know of have heard of

Considering we're talking about the summoning part - note how it specifically says

You gain no Special power over the creature, and it is free to act as the DM deems appropriate. It might leave, Attack you, or help you.

If your DM doesn't want a pit fiend to help you, he doesn't "need" Asmodeus forbidding gate as excuse. The DM can decide Bob the Pit Fiend doesn't feel like helping you (or, Bob knows Asmodeus doesn't like it when he gets summoned, and Bob fears Asmodeus more then you)

Considering the Gate spell itself says

You conjure a portal linking an unoccupied space you can see within range to a precise location on a different plane of existence.
...
Deities and other planar rulers can prevent portals created by this spell from opening in their presence or anywhere within their domains.

The first line would be general, the second specific. Not the way around.

FYI, it's not some True Name type of magic.

you can speak the name of a specific creature (a pseudonym, title, or nickname doesn't work).

The name would be something akin Elminster (not "Terminsel" (a pseudonym he used to use to stay covert), the prince of Athalantar (a title), or The Sage of Shadowdale (one of his nicknames) ... basically the name you put on top your character sheet.

If people dislike your character that much, that you have significant trouble for them to give you their name ... that really more about your character then the gate spell ...

Seriously? Oh wow, a group trans planar teleport-like spell! Such Power, truly. Precision and no tuning fork ( Which aren't a problem in 99% of campaigns I've seen ) are nice, but nowhere near a Wish or Shapechange, for a 9th freaking level spell which was extremely powerful in previous editions. Secondly, you do realize ( Which being Qube, you probably don't ) that the main goal of any half-sane Gate user wouldn't be to politely ask for the help of whatever you just forcefully sucked out of it's plane, but rather to throw it in the middle of some danger zone as a distraction or in practically all cases, within a Magic Circle/ Sympathy Zone/ Warded Area or just fight it, so you can eventually use Planar Binding on it. Or just Dominate Monster.

A "True Name", if you had read the Monster Manual, is basically the actual "name" of powerful demons and the like, which they NEVER use and always prefer to keep secret, and use pseudonyms. The True Name of the most powerful fiends and demons is an insanely guarded information that would be worth a kingdom's fortune to cajole out of the few entities which might know it.

"If people dislike your character that much, that you have significant trouble for them to give you their name ... that really more about your character then the gate spell"

Serious question - Are you ****ing with me? Did you read the MM entry on fiends and demons? It LITERALLY, LITERALLY SAYS, right there, that they will never ever reveal their actual names to anyone EXACTLY FOR THE REASON OF SPELLS LIKE THESE.

Having a planar entity just following you around seems a just a bit conspicuous. Plus a pit fiend or whatever is just going to tag along wherever you go?

Gate lets your Air Drop your friend from wherever to where you are.

It does also let you and anyone else travel through the portal.

Wow, Amazing. Almost as if Illusion or True Polymorph ( Permanent until dispelled ) or Plane Shift doesn't exist. Truly a bargain choice for our 9th level spell, the air drop.

Renduaz

2017-09-07, 10:02 AM

Gate is astonishingly useful and powerful.

If you are thinking you're going to be a clever little munchkin and start sucking archdevils from the nine hells one at a time to dispatch them, you're in for a bad time and it isn't going to work.

And it is good that it has DM Fiat tied to it, because it could seriously disrupt the game's story and narrative if some random guy in your party in the middle of dealing with a red dragon crisis suddenly decided "Hey, I bet ASMOEDEUS could take this red dragon!" and summoned him. That kind of crap would be putting your DM on the spot and could cause all sorts of problems.

Gate is precisely accurate, there is no chance of it opening somewhere you don't want it to. Also it is a two-way portal that you can step in and out of as many times as you like for the full minute. You can transport like 100 guys through a gate in the span of one minute.

So if you want to pull some eldritch old god like cthulu out of your ass and pull him into your game, it isn't gonna fly. But what WOULD work, is if there is some pit fiend or other creature, or even just a lich or dragon or whatever BBEG, you can goto any plane that isn't the prime material plane including demiplanes or magnificent mansions, and summon them from the prime material plane. Suddenly the big bad evil guy is standing right in front of you, without his armies and minions and completely unaware and offguard.

THAT is powerful. Using it in conjunction with the Magic Circle spell, you can plop certain types of enemies in a spot they can't get out of at all unless they are magic users and even then it would be difficult for them to get out of.

But yeah, Gate is awesome, but if you're trying to be cheesey and break your game, it has the built-in ability for the DM to just easily say "no" and be able to point to that specific line of text to justify it.

You should've read the post first. "Gate" restriction has two parts, one is that you can't open it in The presence of Planar Rulers ( THAT is ****ing Asmodeus and the Archdevils ), and the second is that you can't open it to anywhere in their domain if they don't want to ( To summon Pit Fiends and other normal monster schmucks. ) It's the latter part which is idiotic.

>Gate is precisely accurate, there is no chance of it opening somewhere

Gate does nothing if any Planar Ruler has made the Oh so unimaginable decision of barring random meddlesome arcanists from popping in anywhere in their plane. Meanwhile Plane Shift despite it's drawbacks actually works consistently when it's available regardless of what the planar ruler wants.

>But what WOULD work

That's the only thing which works, that's right.

rbstr

2017-09-07, 10:04 AM

OK, so don't use Gate.

And maybe learn to be a bit less of an ******* with people discussing inconsequential things on the internet?
Somebody **** in your coffee this morning or something?

Renduaz

2017-09-07, 10:10 AM

OK, so don't use Gate.

And maybe learn to be a bit less of an ******* with people discussing inconsequential things on the internet?
Somebody **** in your coffee this morning or something?

I dislike obtuseness. I'm not using Gate, but what would be even better is for WOTC to restore Gate to the stature it's always been at, and should be at, by removing the garbage "Anywhere within their domain" line from it. And then it will actually work like the posters in this thread think it does - Precision travel to anywhere in the Planes, except in the presence of Planar Rulers. Being able to call forth powerful Planar creatures, but not the planar rulers themselves ( And still needing their real names to do so which is super hard to obtain ). And actually be worthy of the spell slot.

Lombra

2017-09-07, 10:15 AM

smcmike

2017-09-07, 10:18 AM

Right. This is a DM problem, not a spell problem.

PhoenixPhyre

2017-09-07, 10:23 AM

I dislike obtuseness. I'm not using Gate, but what would be even better is for WOTC to restore Gate to the stature it's always been at, and should be at, by removing the garbage "Anywhere within their domain" line from it. And then it will actually work like the posters in this thread think it does - Precision travel to anywhere in the Planes, except in the presence of Planar Rulers. Being able to call forth powerful Planar creatures, but not the planar rulers themselves ( And still needing their real names to do so which is super hard to obtain ). And actually be worthy of the spell slot.

It seems from your postings that you want tools you can leverage against DM opposition. If so, 5e is not the edition for you. A good DM will use the tools well regardless of attempted player fiat, a bad one will just flat out ignore your "but the rules say..." objections. All abilities, spells, etc. are subject to adjudication--that's the nature of having a DM as the conduit between you and the game world. Nothing happens without him saying ok. Stop trying to fight them, find people you enjoy playing with, and get on with things. Or play a DM-less game.

Gate has its uses, but isn't the "I win" button it used to be. That's a good thing in my eyes. If you want planar travel without worrying about a deity, use plane shift. It doesn't have those restrictions (since they're in the text of Gate). You lose accuracy, but them's the breaks. Gate gives you pinpoint accuracy + calling on extra-planars at the cost of not being a perfect invasion spell that lets you bypass the adventure. Plane shift lets you get there, but doesn't let you pick where with pinpoint accuracy. You can get outside the citadel of Asmodeus, but you can't get inside his treasure room.

Edit: scry and die has been neutered this edition. On purpose. For very good reason. On all accounts. Teleport has inaccuracy and counters, no more eschew materials to avoid needing something specific from the person to scry, scrying is resistible with no easy ways of boosting DCs. Same with gate--built-in safeguards have been put in to prevent the problems of 3.5 from infecting this edition. Let's keep it that way.

TheTeaMustFlow

2017-09-07, 10:38 AM

Several problems with Renduaz's proposal, as usual.

1. Not all planes, or locations within planes, are the domain of a 'deity or planar ruler'. Indeed, most do not. I'd say that Asmodeus is the only inarguable example as regards an entire plane, though presumably the Lady of Pain, the Demon Lords, and various others might qualify for the sections of their respective planes that they do control. This means summoning Pit Fiends might be a problem, but summoning Ancient Shadow Dragons, rather less so. Or level 20 Wizards, for that matter.

2. Even if such a being exists, are they necessarily aware of any attempted Gate in their domain? Just because they are capable of preventing it doesn't necessarily mean they automatically know about it.

3. Even if such a being exists and is aware of the attempt, that doesn't necessarily mean they will always prevent it. One can quite imagine, for example, that Asmodeus would be willing to let a Pit Fiend in the service of one of his more unruly subordinates be called away. Or for a lesser devil, he simply might not care.

NorthernPhoenix

2017-09-07, 10:39 AM

This honestly sounds like the kind of thing that would only be a problem if you're playing with a hostile DM.

ZorroGames

2017-09-07, 10:40 AM

Seriously? Oh wow, a group trans planar teleport-like spell! Such Power, truly. Precision and no tuning fork ( Which aren't a problem in 99% of campaigns I've seen ) are nice, but nowhere near a Wish or Shapechange, for a 9th freaking level spell which was extremely powerful in previous editions. Secondly, you do realize ( Which being Qube, you probably don't ) that the main goal of any half-sane Gate user wouldn't be to politely ask for the help of whatever you just forcefully sucked out of it's plane, but rather to throw it in the middle of some danger zone as a distraction or in practically all cases, within a Magic Circle/ Sympathy Zone/ Warded Area or just fight it, so you can eventually use Planar Binding on it. Or just Dominate Monster.

A "True Name", if you had read the Monster Manual, is basically the actual "name" of powerful demons and the like, which they NEVER use and always prefer to keep secret, and use pseudonyms. The True Name of the most powerful fiends and demons is an insanely guarded information that would be worth a kingdom's fortune to cajole out of the few entities which might know it.

"If people dislike your character that much, that you have significant trouble for them to give you their name ... that really more about your character then the gate spell"

Serious question - Are you ****ing with me? Did you read the MM entry on fiends and demons? It LITERALLY, LITERALLY SAYS, right there, that they will never ever reveal their actual names to anyone EXACTLY FOR THE REASON OF SPELLS LIKE THESE.

Wow, Amazing. Almost as if Illusion or True Polymorph ( Permanent until dispelled ) or Plane Shift doesn't exist. Truly a bargain choice for our 9th level spell, the air drop.

Sigh, another one added to the ignore list.

90sMusic

2017-09-07, 10:51 AM

You should've read the post first. "Gate" restriction has two parts, one is that you can't open it in The presence of Planar Rulers ( THAT is ****ing Asmodeus and the Archdevils ), and the second is that you can't open it to anywhere in their domain if they don't want to ( To summon Pit Fiends and other normal monster schmucks. ) It's the latter part which is idiotic.

>Gate is precisely accurate, there is no chance of it opening somewhere

Gate does nothing if any Planar Ruler has made the Oh so unimaginable decision of barring random meddlesome arcanists from popping in anywhere in their plane. Meanwhile Plane Shift despite it's drawbacks actually works consistently when it's available regardless of what the planar ruler wants.

>But what WOULD work

That's the only thing which works, that's right.

I think you need to work on your reading comprehension... Or maybe just calm down before going to forums.
I was saying WHY you CANNOT use it on figures like Asmodeus and why it is a good thing.

It is still an amazingly useful spell.

But bottom line is, if you don't like a spell, just don't take it. No one cares.

Kryx

2017-09-07, 10:53 AM

Sigh, another one added to the ignore list.
Agreed. These toxic people have no place in this community. I wish the mods took a more active stance here. :(

Willie the Duck

2017-09-07, 11:04 AM

turns what should be an amazing 9th level spell into a worthless piece of trash that relies on pure DM Fiat for 99% of the time in order to function, unlike every other 9th level spell.

This is the part I am going to focus on. And my question is-what, exactly, is wrong with that? Since when has a DM fiat gatekeeper been a bad thing, or out of character for D&D? Particularly in the specific instance of really powerful if the DM wants it to be, but rather tame if not. That seems to be par for the course. 34 years I've been playing this game and that has always been the case for Illusions and spells like Suggestion-they are the most powerful spells you can have for their given level, if the DM agrees with what you want to pull with them.

I understand the logic that is usually brought forth when people argue against DM fiat gatekeeping--players want to know what the powers they select can do--but that is one of many valuable qualities that a game can contain, and must be balanced against all of the other parts that make the game good or bad. 5e has strongly come down in favor of DM fiat (and the whole 'ruling not rules' thing). You don't have to like it, certainly, but it's a pretty consistent trait across 5e, so singling out Gate as bad because of this is... I don't know, selective outrage I guess. Let's not forget that a big factor in the decision to hew closer to DM fiat was other people who used the term RAW unironically and made statements roughly like, 'This game (3e usually) is so broken, because RAW you can use the Gate spell to make the adventuring party obsolete! And I am going to rant and rave and belittle the designers and carry on like I've been personally insulted" etc. etc. etc.

So, yeah. They put a DM-fiat gatekeeper on Gate. Theoretically, the whole game is DM gate-kept, and 5e as a whole hews in this direction. In no small part because of Gate-abuse in previous editions. If that's a problem in your group, use your DM-fiat to change the spell. That would be a fitting solution.

As to the rest of this thread, I highly suspect it will continue to be rather undiplomatic, and I really don't see how I can add to it. You have to be self-aware enough to realize that you've instigated any reproach you will receive by your actions, statements, and general attitude. If you wanted to walk out of this respected by others, you would have made better decisions from the get go. Either you don't care, or actively want it. That's your decision.

foobar1969

2017-09-07, 11:14 AM

Unoriginal

2017-09-07, 11:27 AM

It should be noted that Asmodeus has in general little reason to not allow his servants to take a short trip to the Material Plane. Some time where the Devil can corrupt or kill mortals without the other Planar Rulers complaining about invading the Material Plane? All benefit, and it's not like he risks to lose the Devil permanently, or even would care if it was the case.

Asmodeus is a ****head and has access to a ridiculously high number of servants. A few of them being summoned away is not likely to disturb him.

The problem is in the word "domain". If we interpret that as "home plane", it means any plane with a god on it is immune to unwanted Gate attempts. That's a big limitation for a 9th level spell. Therefore I would interpret "domain" more restrictively as "demesne", specific territory under the god's direct control.

Done?

Even a 9th level spell don't let you challenge a deity on their home plane

qube

2017-09-07, 11:45 AM

Seriously? Oh wow, a group trans planar teleport-like spell! Such Power, truly. Precision and no tuning fork ( Which aren't a problem in 99% of campaigns I've seen ) are nice, but nowhere near a Wish or Shapechange,That's in the eye of the beholder. Considering how teleport is already lvl 7 - it's only common sense that something massively more useful is lvl 9.

And Wish? ... I don't want to burst your bubble but you REALLY should read 5E Wish. If you use it for anything else then emulating a lower level spell, you got a solid chance of permanently losing it.

Serious question - Are you ****ing with me? Did you read the MM entry on fiends and demons? It LITERALLY, LITERALLY SAYS, right there, that they will never ever reveal their actual names to anyone EXACTLY FOR THE REASON OF SPELLS LIKE THESE.You're one of those players who never actually played a high level spellcaster, are you?

What Are Divinations for 100 points, Alex

Ravinsild

2017-09-07, 11:53 AM

Dude, I just feel like you are butthurt since from previous editions, things in 5th edition don't offer as much options. Go play another edition. Gate is ridiculously useful, just because you can't do broken things with it it doesn't mean that it is not good.

Do you consider Wish a trash spell too, because it requires DM fiat? Come on. There wouldn't be a game without a DM, and spells that allow in-game interactions between players and DM are wonderful. Why do you have to pretend that the DM will make things less fun?

Maybe in the games that I run "Asmodeus" doesn't ward his domain from gate, and you are free to go there, with consecuences.

Plus, there are dozens of other places where gate can be useful outside the domain of dieties, like elemental planes, shadowfell, feywild...

He also got super butthurt because his "Super consistent turbo DPR" build was actually trash that came online only at max level (therefore isn't functional in real games) and required a very certain set up to work.

It was the equivalent of building an infinite damage deck in MTG that required the perfect draw/fish for the perfect cards in your hand to work, but an actual good/normal deck would be 10x better lol.

All that said, Gate isn't almost completely useless.

Scathain

2017-09-07, 12:10 PM

The problem is in the word "domain". If we interpret that as "home plane", it means any plane with a god on it is immune to unwanted Gate attempts. That's a big limitation for a 9th level spell. Therefore I would interpret "domain" more restrictively as "demesne", specific territory under the god's direct control.

Done?

This. As said before, Asmodeus is one of the few planar rulers that can inarguably be considered the "master" of the entire plane. Who rules all of the Seven Mounting Heavens? Bytopia? Mechanus? Deities live there, but they have their own Demi-planes. Take Psilofyr, god of Myconids, as an example. His domain is secret only to those not looking for it. If I were DM'ing, I'd say he'd absolutely block you from entering the specific fungal growth on the underside of the great cog he dwells in, but he couldn't block you from Mechanus itself. Wanna pop open a gate to Nirvana, Modify Memory and THEN stumble upon it? Well sure, just watch out for the Inevitables, they're hardass border patrol.

Unoriginal

2017-09-07, 12:21 PM

Mechanus is Primus's domain.

That being said, I don't see how a god being able to stop the spell from working would make it worthless.

TheTeaMustFlow

2017-09-07, 12:56 PM

Mechanus is Primus's domain.

Is it? He's never actually stated (in 5e) to be the ruler of Mechanus as such, just the Modrons. It's possible he's more on the level of one of the Genie monarchs.

Mellack

2017-09-07, 03:04 PM

The spell is pretty powerful, and when playing at those levels you need DM co-ordination. If you cannot work with your DM on this, perhaps you have other problems in your game.

Temperjoke

2017-09-07, 03:29 PM

Personally, I don't see it as a spell for casual, regular use. Theorycrafting aside, to me spells like Gate or Wish are largely to be used as plot-relevant devices, meaning they are a potential solution to a problem for the party, whether used by a member of the party or with a powerful NPC acquaintance. This is why they have such DM buy-in clauses built into their description. Most deities don't restrict total access to their domains, for example, unless they are actively working against the person trying to gain access. Asmodeus, for example, restricts portal access to the Hells except for Avernus as a matter of policy, so I'd imagine that an attempt to use a Gate spell anywhere else in the Hells would be blocked automatically. Similarly, Asmodeus wouldn't necessarily have a problem with mortals summoning a demon to the Material Plane (assuming they managed the means to do it), but he wouldn't allow himself or anyone of significant importance to be summoned so casually.

Easy_Lee

2017-09-07, 03:33 PM

Scathain

2017-09-07, 03:44 PM

Mechanus is Primus's domain.

That being said, I don't see how a god being able to stop the spell from working would make it worthless.

Yeah no, there are countless deities that rule in Nirvana. The modrons are ruled by him, but Formians, Inevitables, and the aforementioned Psilofyr all claim the Clockwork as their domain.

As always, if you as a DM want Primus to be the absolute ruler of Mechanus and have the ability to deny all portals, all power to you.

In the end it comes down to how the DM composes his/her planes. I was simply attempting to show a line of reasoning why CERTAIN planes would not be automatically be shut off.

Unoriginal

2017-09-07, 03:54 PM

The spell gives the DM wiggle room to say that it simply fizzles out because [insert diety here] stopped it. You probably won't get to argue over whether the location you chose is actually in thar deity's "domain." If you do, it will probably come in the form of the DM looking at you and asking "where exactly is your gate going to open?", then waiting for a wrong answer.

Will a good DM do this? No. Will a bad DM find other ways to screw with the players? Yes. But I, too, take issue with any player choice that has to be approved by the DM. The players control their PCs, and the DM controls everything else. That's the rule. Break that rule, or bend it with spells that the DM can fizzle on a whim, and the game doesnt work as well.

...what?

The PC is making a choice by trying to do something. If the DM decides that it is not possible, it is not interfering with the choice, just with how possible the action is.

If a PC tries to use Scry or another divination spell to look inside a NPC's treasure room, you wouldn't object to the DM saying something like "the spell doesn't work. It seems the room has been protected against divination spells to avoid making things easy for thieves", right?

Or if a PC is trying to poison an emperor's meal, you would object to the DM saying that the emperor has someone to check their food for poison, right?

Easy_Lee

2017-09-07, 04:03 PM

...what?

The PC is making a choice by trying to do something. If the DM decides that it is not possible, it is not interfering with the choice, just with how possible the action is.

If a PC tries to use Scry or another divination spell to look inside a NPC's treasure room, you wouldn't object to the DM saying something like "the spell doesn't work. It seems the room has been protected against divination spells to avoid making things easy for thieves", right?

Or if a PC is trying to poison an emperor's meal, you would object to the DM saying that the emperor has someone to check their food for poison, right?

Both the scry and poison examples involve the players learning something. Poisoning the emperor didn't work? Bribe the guy who checks his food. Scrying was blocked? The enemy has a wizard. Furthermore, the players have other means to try to figure those things out ahead of time.

Gate is a ninth level spell that can fail, no questions asked, no roll involved, if the DM decides that it fails. Furthermore, the DM gets to decide on the spot, every time, whether or not it fails. Yes, I have a problem with that.

Tanarii

2017-09-07, 04:06 PM

Gate is a ninth level spell that can fail, no questions asked, no roll involved, if the DM decides that it fails. Furthermore, the DM gets to decide on the spot, every time, whether or not it fails. Yes, I have a problem with that.Given that's the DMs job to decide things on the spot, I don't. Especially when it's written into the spell, so the player has fair warning.

Easy_Lee

2017-09-07, 04:14 PM

Given that's the DMs job to decide things on the spot, I don't. Especially when it's written into the spell, so the player has fair warning.

I can tell that you and I don't agree about the DM's role. As far as I'm concerned, the DM is there to do three things: control the world and creatures, interpret the rules, and provide rulings for things the rules don't cover. I believe that a DM who starts doing more than that is taking a risk.

A DM who sees it as his job to make decisions on the fly is one who has screwed up royally before he even sat down at the table. A DM ought to hate making decisions on the fly, because he not only failed to think of it beforehand but will also have to remember that decision later.

The Gate spell forces the DM to decide whether it works every time the spell is cast. That's a poorly designed spell from both the player's perspective and a good DM's perspective. It's less certainty for the player and more work for the DM. And ultimately, I think that's what this thread is about.

alchahest

2017-09-07, 04:25 PM

It is a little troubling that we finally have a non-fourth edition that pulls back the overwhelming power of casters and there's someone tossing invectives about how it's garbage that you can't just completely control an entire plane by way of pulling it's inhabitants as and when you like out of the plane and into your control. Into, for example, an area with a summoning circle and a dimensional anchor keyed to go off once the thing is summoned.

DM Fiat doesn't mean "this never works" it means "Assuming you are playing a role playing game and not just summoning monsters ala final fantasy, the DM can say "this won't work in this instance." It's like assuming fireball is a wasted spell because it won't hurt fire elementals, which the DM can, at their discretion, use whenever they want to make your fireball useless. The DM is in full control of when fire elementals appear. they make a choice, every time they set pen to paper or minis to battlemap, whether a given ability you have will work or not.

Gate is good. it's really good. If you feel like taking it would be a waste, talk to your DM about his or her intentions and ideas surrounding the spell. Communicate like adults rather than trying to find a way to break the game they're building for your benefit.

Tanarii

2017-09-07, 04:33 PM

I can tell that you and I don't agree about the DM's role. As far as I'm concerned, the DM is there to do three things: control the world and creatures, interpret the rules, and provide rulings for things the rules don't cover. I believe that a DM who starts doing more than that is taking a risk.I think the primary role of the DM is to be an arbiter of the game.

This includes deciding things on the spot*. Like, all the time. Constantly. Every single second of being a DM. Anyone that can't do that shouldn't even consider being a DM. They aren't prepared.

*for that matter, frequently making things up completely on the spot.

KorvinStarmast

2017-09-07, 04:43 PM

Agreed. These toxic people have no place in this community. I wish the mods took a more active stance here. :( Have you reported the offending posts?
The problem is in the word "domain". If we interpret that as "home plane", it means any plane with a god on it is immune to unwanted Gate attempts. That's a big limitation for a 9th level spell. Therefore I would interpret "domain" more restrictively as "demesne", specific territory under the god's direct control. Yeah. The entire plane being a god's domain isn't (as far as I can recall) specified, though the points being made about Asmodeus are fair points.
Asmodeus is a ****head and has access to a ridiculously high number of servants. A few of them being summoned away is not likely to disturb him. Depends on if he wants that particular one to do something for him. :smallcool: I think he's sort of picky, as a personality trait.
As far as I'm concerned, the DM is there to do three things: control the world and creatures, interpret the rules, and provide rulings for things the rules don't cover. I believe that a DM who starts doing more than that is taking a risk. With no risk there is no reward, but I will agree the heavy handed can be an issue. (I am not so sure about your theory of DM constraints, all said and done).

A DM who sees it as his job to make decisions on the fly is one who has screwed up royally before he even sat down at the table. Nope. DM"s have been doing that since they were still called referees. (Dave Arneson has a little essay about that somewhere on the internet, and references to his little black notebook).

The Gate spell forces the DM to decide whether it works every time the spell is cast. That's a poorly designed spell from both the player's perspective and a good DM's perspective. I agree in part. I would rather the spell text be a bit more open ended, in terms of the player casting the spell to get to another plane understanding "be careful of what you want, as you are sure to get it."

I think the primary role of the DM is to be an arbiter of the game.

This includes deciding things on the spot*. Like, all the time. Constantly. Every single second of being a DM. Anyone that can't do that shouldn't even consider being a DM. They aren't prepared. *for that matter, frequently making things up completely on the spot. Yeah, more this than the other.

Kryx

2017-09-07, 05:16 PM

Have you reported the offending posts?
I have stopped reporting things to this forum after I've seen many thread necromancy cases that I have reported be ignored entirely.
Same situation on these kind of reports.

Unoriginal

2017-09-07, 05:43 PM

Both the scry and poison examples involve the players learning something. Poisoning the emperor didn't work? Bribe the guy who checks his food. Scrying was blocked? The enemy has a wizard. Furthermore, the players have other means to try to figure those things out ahead of time.

Gate is a ninth level spell that can fail, no questions asked, no roll involved, if the DM decides that it fails. Furthermore, the DM gets to decide on the spot, every time, whether or not it fails. Yes, I have a problem with that.

...That's some huge double standards you have here, Easy_Lee.

First, while those exemple lead to learn something, like you said, the PCs have other means to learn those info (meaning that the pedagogic benefit of the try would be minimum).

Second, learning something doesn't change how the DM explained that the player's decision was ineffective (to say nothing in that for those exemples in particular, it's pretty hard to bribe someone who check an emperor's food (proof: the emperor is still alive) and learning that the treasure owner used a method to block Scry isn't that amazing).

Third: as Gate's text says, it's not "the DM can decide it fails just like that no question asked" (although it is in the DM's power to do this for anything in the game, if you want to go so far), but it's "Deities and other planar rulers can prevent portals created by this spell from opening in their presence or anywhere within their domains."

So, please tell me how learning that you tried to open a portal either in the presence of a planar ruler or in a part of their domains AND that they disapproved enough to block you is not something that "involve the players learning something" even if "the players have other means to try to figure those things out ahead of time"? And how learning that some guy has put protection against divination on his treasure is more worthwhile that learning a god or other powerful entity is involved in the issue and disapproving?

Because either they didn't know there was a planar ruler who would forbid the Gate, in which case they learned something (either the ruler's existence, or the fact that they're hostile to the PCs' efforts) or they do know because they already made research and so Gate was never the solution to the problem.

KorvinStarmast

2017-09-07, 05:46 PM

I have stopped reporting things to this forum after I've seen many thread necromancy cases that I have reported be ignored entirely. Same situation on these kind of reports. I can tell you from personal experience that reported posts have gotten mod action. But as we are getting into thread drift, I understand your experience differs.

Easy_Lee

2017-09-07, 06:27 PM

...That's some huge double standards you have here, Easy_Lee.

First, while those exemple lead to learn something, like you said, the PCs have other means to learn those info (meaning that the pedagogic benefit of the try would be minimum).

Second, learning something doesn't change how the DM explained that the player's decision was ineffective (to say nothing in that for those exemples in particular, it's pretty hard to bribe someone who check an emperor's food (proof: the emperor is still alive) and learning that the treasure owner used a method to block Scry isn't that amazing).

Third: as Gate's text says, it's not "the DM can decide it fails just like that no question asked" (although it is in the DM's power to do this for anything in the game, if you want to go so far), but it's "Deities and other planar rulers can prevent portals created by this spell from opening in their presence or anywhere within their domains."

So, please tell me how learning that you tried to open a portal either in the presence of a planar ruler or in a part of their domains AND that they disapproved enough to block you is not something that "involve the players learning something" even if "the players have other means to try to figure those things out ahead of time"? And how learning that some guy has put protection against divination on his treasure is more worthwhile that learning a god or other powerful entity is involved in the issue and disapproving?

Because either they didn't know there was a planar ruler who would forbid the Gate, in which case they learned something (either the ruler's existence, or the fact that they're hostile to the PCs' efforts) or they do know because they already made research and so Gate was never the solution to the problem.

You're misusing the word huge and also the term double standard.

In the case of scry or the poison, which are made up examples for this thread and I'm only humoring by even replying to them, knowing that those protections are in place is useful.
In the context of Gate, knowing that whatever deity doesn't want you creating a Gate to its realm is useless.

Because of course they don't want you creating a Gate to their realm. It's obvious. Any deity ought to close that crap right away if able, unless that deity and the player have an agreement. That would be like a king allowing someone he doesn't know teleport directly into his kingdom when he has the power to stop it.

Wizards have no means of making that agreement with any deity, since they aren't Clerics. They can't even cast Commune. Which is also the same reason why they can't learn that deity's decision ahead of time. Additionally, a Wizard who has such an agreement with a deity won't need to cast gate for all of the aforementioned reasons (see OP).

So this is a spell that, in the majority of cases, should not work, and it's up to the DM to tell the player that it doesn't work. Your players, having learned the BBEG devil's true name, come up with a plan to cast Gate to get them to the demon's lair so they can kill him. You, being a DM who understands the rules, know that Asmodeus (or whichever god in question, something you may have to look up in the middle of the game) would not allow that Gate to open. You now either have to tell the player that their spell doesn't work, or (if you're nice) inform them ahead of time that they know it won't work because of that stipulation.

And then the player wonders why he picked this spell instead of Meteor Shower, or Wish, or Foresight, or True Polymorph, thus proving OP's point.

Do you like being a DM in that sort of situation? I don't. I hate telling my players that their features won't work here. I avoid that whenever I can. It feels unfair. It feels wrong. I hate it when I play and that happens to me.

Spells should not be designed with additional, built-in reasons why they won't work.

Scripten

2017-09-07, 07:12 PM

The easiest answer, as a DM, is to not do that. Considering it is DM fiat, there's really no other roadblocks there.

Unoriginal

2017-09-07, 07:20 PM

In the case of scry or the poison, which are made up examples for this thread and I'm only humoring by even replying to them, knowing that those protections are in place is useful.

Oh my, I am so grateful for the humility and mercy you demonstrated by humoring my nonsensical, worthless ramblings

In the context of Gate, knowing that whatever deity doesn't want you creating a Gate to its realm is useless.

Really? Knowing that a deity is personally opposing you is useless?

It should be a moment that makes PCs soil themselves a bit.

Because of course they don't want you creating a Gate to their realm. It's obvious. Any deity ought to close that crap right away if able, unless that deity and the player have an agreement. That would be like a king allowing someone he doesn't know teleport directly into his kingdom when he has the power to stop it.

This is utterly absurd.

First, a god or god-like entity, in their planar domain, is stronger than any wizard. Yes, even a level 20 wizard with 5 friends. Aside from their considerable might and home field advantages, they also have all of their servants and all of their ressources on hand. They don't *need* to forbid your Gate to be in security.

Evil deities would generally be happy with a new toy to torment/corrupt showing up, good deities would generally give you the benefit of the doubt, and neutral deities would react depending on the case.

Second, you're assuming that the planar rulers, who tend to be pretty smart and well-informed people, won't know who the Wizard is at least to some extent (even if it's "that guy from X world who's among the most powerful spellcasters on the planet", since you must be that powerful to cast Gate), and can't figure out why you would use Gate as they are made aware of your portal.

So this is a spell that, in the majority of cases, should not work,

No, this is a spell that, in the majority of cases, WILL work, because of a simple fact several people have mentioned already: most of the places in the Planes are NOT the domain of gods or planar rulers.

At worse, you can STILL use Gate to transport yourself to one of the portals that does the link with a plane where Gate is forbidden (ex: a portal toward the first layer of Hell).

And as I said before, most gods or planar rules won't stop you from coming, as you're basically placing yourself in their power completely.

and it's up to the DM to tell the player that it doesn't work. Your players, having learned the BBEG devil's true name, come up with a plan to cast Gate to get them to the demon's lair so they can kill him. You, being a DM who understands the rules, know that Asmodeus (or whichever god in question, something you may have to look up in the middle of the game) would not allow that Gate to open. You now either have to tell the player that their spell doesn't work, or (if you're nice) inform them ahead of time that they know it won't work because of that stipulation.

If a plan involves "killing someone who a god wants to keep alive, in the plane under the control of said god", I would tell my players they need to come up with a different plan.

If a plan involves "killing an Outsider BBEG in their home plane, where they have dozens and dozens of minions at the ready nearby", I would tell my players it's not a good plan.

And then the player wonders why he picked this spell instead of Meteor Shower, or Wish, or Foresight, or True Polymorph, thus proving OP's point.

"Sorry that your spell didn't work when you tried to go against a god's will. Now here's all the times where it does work."

Do you like being a DM in that sort of situation? I don't. I hate telling my players that their features won't work here. I avoid that whenever I can. It feels unfair. It feels wrong. I hate it when I play and that happens to me.

So you don't like telling players that Fireball doesn't work on enemies immune to fire? Or that they can't pick a door's lock because there is no lock on the door? Or that they failed to hit an enemy because said enemy went invisible and the PC guessed their location wrongly? Or that their weapons won't work well underwater?

Nevermind that you can easily justify why a god would let the PCs do their things. Ex: "Asmodeus wants to punish/test/have fun at the expense of this Devil, so he is going to allow this Gate."

Spells should not be designed with additional, built-in reasons why they won't work.

Oh? So Locate Object shouldn't be blocked by a sheet of lead? And to stay on topic, I suppose that beings summoned by Gate should always be ready and eager to serve the PCs, since them being unhelpful or even hostile is an "additional, built-in reason" for the player's idea to not work.

Nifft

2017-09-07, 07:22 PM

Easy_Lee

2017-09-07, 07:53 PM

Unoriginal, you and I are not going to agree on this. You don't have a problem with players wasting their action due to factors they couldn't have known. I do. And when those factors are something I as the DM had to decide, not just rules I could point to, it's even worse. This spell, for me, is a perfect example of bad spell design for a variety of reasons, many of which I've elucidated.

So let me cut to the chase. If you read the spell Gate, and did not immediately dislike it, then you and I are fundamentally different in terms of what we want from the game. That doesn't make you wrong. But what it does mean is that disagreeing with me, insulting me, trying to dismiss my arguments, and quoting individual parts of my post like a Youtube reply video are going to have no impact on either my opinion or the opinions of those who agree with me.

You'll never convince anyone over the Internet, nor does a difference of opinion make either of us wrong. I posted my opinion on Gate. I could have started an argument with the other posters, but I didn't. I said what I thought and didn't call anyone out. You did the opposite.

Saeviomage

2017-09-07, 09:37 PM

It is just another one of the 5e spells that had it's text modified from previous editions with a purely negative outcome and no positive aspects from anyone's point of view.

As others have pointed out the in-game effect of this is that bad DMs will shut the spell down much more often, then wave at the spell text for the reason why.

That's just not a net positive.

Is there some DM out there that was having problems with this aspect of the spell before?
Maybe.

Does changing it in this way empower that DM?
Not really. He could always rule that it failed. Now he can point at the rules text as a hard rule that a god can stop it... but his players will still be just as dissatisfied as if he'd proclaimed that a god stopped it in prior editions.

So... net negative, as now it seems like the sensible action for any deity is to always deny it within their realm, when they don't have that option over lower level spells.

alchahest

2017-09-07, 09:49 PM

Scenario 1: A Player tries to gate a powerful duke that Asmodeus wants to keep around for his machinations. He declines to allow it. player loses a single action, and gains the knowledge that Asmodeus is aware of their knowing the Duke's real name. Asmodeus may send someone else in it's place to punish those impudent mortals. Or scry on the players to determine their weaknesses and blind spots. Or send through a contract offer.

Scenario 2: A Player tries to gate a powerful duke that Asmodeus doesn't need for his current machinations. Or he decides this is a great opportunity to try to corrupt a powerful magic using mortal. Duke of hell is summoned, and the players have to deal with a powerful entity who is aware that he's been summoned against his will.

Scenario 3: A player casts Power Word Kill at a powerful archmage. The archmage has 101 HP. The spell is completely wasted through no fault of the player's. On the archmage's turn, he casts Gate directly underneath the the player, sending him tumbling into the elemental plane of fire. player has wasted a spell

Scenario 4: A Player Casts Foresight on the party's scout. The scout had been previously corrupted by the Duke of hell from one of the previous examples. The rogue lies about what they see with the foresight spell.

Scenario 5: A Player casts True Resurrection. Unfortunately, the target, a great hero from history, has been dead 201 years. Or, is happy in the afterlife, having given his or her life to a cause and risks awakening the ancient evil he or she had used given their life to seal away if they should ever return.

all kinds of ways "DM Fiat" can "waste" a 9th level spell. Gate isn't unique, and the ways in which it can act unpredictably due to situations outside the control of the player aren't unique either. Talk to your DM if you have an idea, I guarantee acting like adultsand communicating instead of trying to gotcha them will be more fun for everyone.

JNAProductions

2017-09-07, 10:24 PM

Power Word Kill, not Finger of Death.

But yes, good examples.

alchahest

2017-09-07, 11:03 PM

Power Word Kill, not Finger of Death.

But yes, good examples.

thanks, fixed it!

Beelzebubba

2017-09-07, 11:07 PM

Renduaz threads are gifts that keep on giving.

(clicks link to view a post or two, since he's blocked for my overall sanity)

Yeah, same as it ever was.

Never change, dude. You're cute and entertaining.

Sigreid

2017-09-07, 11:25 PM

Renduaz

2017-09-08, 03:17 AM

Knowing better than to mire myself in everything currently transpiring, I will leave a response to the sole technical point being raised so far, regarding which planar areas are the "domain" of Deities, Demon Lords or other Planar Rulers ( DMG, 46, "Gate" ), by quoting the DMG on the Outer Planes, starting from Page 57:

"If the Inner Planes are the raw matter and energy that makes up the multiverse , the Outer Planes provide the direction , thought, and purpose for its construction. Accordingly , many sages refer to the Outer Planes as divine planes , spiritual planes , or godly planes , for the Outer Planes are best known as the homes of deities." - The Outer Planes, themselves, are known as the "homes of deities". Sounds a lot like dominion to me, but maybe the domains are just tiny homes with a huge wasteland inbetween

"When discussing anything to do with deities , the language used must be highly metaphorical. Their actual homes aren't literally places at all, but exemplify the idea that the Outer Planes are realms of thought and spirit. " - The "homes", or domains of the deities, are not places in the Planes, even though an Avatar or manifestation may appear in some landmark. Rather, it is implied that each and every space in an Outer Plane is the domain of one deity or planar ruler or another as a realm of thought and spirit embodied by it, whether divided between 5 or a 1000 Planar Rulers, I.E Pelor in the Blessed Fields of Elysium, Sarenrae in the Island of Renewal, and so forth.

"Even in perceptible regions , appearances can be deceptive. Initially, many of the Outer Planes appear hospitable and familiar to natives of the Material Plane. But the landscape can change at a whim of the powerful forces that dwell on these planes, which can remake them completely, effectively erasing and rebuilding existence to better fulfill their divine needs. Distance is a virtually meaningless concept on the Outer Planes. The perceptible regions of the planes can seem quite small , but they can also stretch on to what seems like infinity. Adventurers could take a guided tour of the Nine Hells from the first layer to the ninth, in a single day - if the powers of the Hells desire it. Or it could take weeks for travelers to make a grueling trek across a single layer." - We are told that distance is meaningless, so that assigning a certain spatial "Radius" for a planar ruler's influence might be faulty, and that the landscapes change at a whim of the powerful forces ( AKA Planar Rulers ) that dwell there to fulfill their divine needs. The DMG offers the Nine Hell as an example, which furthermore reinforces the fact that the "Divine Domains" compose every single inch of the Outer Planes ( With individual planar rulers claiming different portions ), by stating that the power of the Hells hold sway over the entire "Nine Hells" Plane throughout it's 9 layers, and could make travel there as long as they like for instance. But, I.E - All of the Nine Hells is under the domain of one planar ruler or another, whether it be Asmodeus, or Dis and so forth.

According to the established campaign settings such as the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk ( Creators/Betrayer Gods ), it is very difficult to find anywhere in the Outer Planes which could be argued not to be part of the "Domain" of some Deity, Demon Lord, Archdevil or "Powerful planar ruler" or another. Your best chances of doing so would be in a homebrew setting in which you explicitly make "No-Ruler's Zones" in the Outer Planes. Even so, in the official settings at least and in many homebrew worlds which borrow from official concepts, the most recognizable locations in the Planes, of which one would need to know about in order to Plane Shift there or create a Gate, are those associated with locations which are definitively planar domains - A layer of the Abyss with it's corresponding Demon Lord, the City of Dis, Pelor's Fortress of the Sun, Lloth's Demonweb Pits, Arvandor, the domain of the Seldarine, Dwarfhome of the Dwarven Pantheon, and so forth.

Even if there is a "No-Man's zone" you'd have to somehow know about it and find it in some God knows ( no pun intended ) where planar section, which you'd have difficulty reaching in the first place since the Planes are spatially infinite and distance is meaningless, as are the "Borders" of divine Domain. You can't just walk 500000000000 feet away from the Fortress of the Sun and go "Yep, Pelor's domain ends exactly here." And in the unlikely event in which you did succeed in learning of such a location, then you'd only be able to summon whatever errant beings might be wandering around in that "Divine Wilderness" of no particular importance, and you'll have to learn their true names in order to do that. And upon doing it once you'd have to go and somehow learn more and more and more and more true names of every random straggling Pegasi or Gray Hag to be able to Gate another being again back on the Prime Material. Unlike the City of Dis for instance where you might learn a couple of useful True Names, yet sadly for you, it's the domain of Dispater who from what I hear isn't exactly fond of losing control within his own city.

Almost completely useless spell, as I've written in my title. Also, as for the Omniscience thing, the former DMG likewise suggests that Planar Rulers are keenly aware of what transpires within their domain ( Since they exist as part of it, a realm of thought and spirit ), and that they can "remake them completely, effectively erasing and rebuilding existence", and dictate the time it would take an adventurer to travel and so on, all of which points to them having and omnipresent influence within their domains. The fact that the Gate spell even added the restriction both in their presence and "Anywhere within their domains" also reinforces the DMG's description, placed as it is directly in the spell's description to let you know that any Planar Ruler could cancel it in their domain per se, without any mention about "having to know" or whatever. It's taken for granted that the deities and planar rulers can inherently sense and block such attempts as soon as the magic attempts to intrude into their dominion.

War_lord

2017-09-08, 04:06 AM

I'll just throw out there that the gods of D&D are not omniscient or all knowing. As a DM, unless I have decided that the deity is already watching the spellcaster for some reason there is no reason for him/her/it to even know that the gate spell is being cast.

I think it'd know, this is a 9th level spell we're talking about, that's a serious amount of power and I would imagine a deity would be at least curious about the uninvited guest. I think would it care is a better question. Still, this reflects one of the ways in which 5e breaks from D&D's past. In older editions of the game going through the planes godhunting was a common endgame scenario, in 5e the gods are always a big cut above the player characters, they aren't there to be slayed, and they're powerful enough to just "nope" your attempt to do so.

qube

2017-09-08, 04:41 AM

it is very difficult to find anywhere in the Outer Planes which could be argued not to be part of the "Domain" of some Deity, Demon Lord, Archdevil or "Powerful planar ruler" or another. It boils down to this.

Because, it is in fact VERY simple to find a location in the Outer Planes which could be argued not to be part of the "Domain" of some Deity.

Only because you assume that each and every space in an Outer Plane is the domain of one deity or planar ruler or another as a realm of thought and spirit embodied by it, whether divided between 5 or a 1000 Planar Rulers - and apparently every of those deities hates any type of travel and forbids Gate.

You handcuff yourself ... and then you complain your hands are tied.
Sorry, but that's not our problem

Cybren

2017-09-08, 04:50 AM

I think the primary role of the DM is to be an arbiter of the game.

This includes deciding things on the spot*. Like, all the time. Constantly. Every single second of being a DM. Anyone that can't do that shouldn't even consider being a DM. They aren't prepared.

*for that matter, frequently making things up completely on the spot.
Can we favorite posts on here? Can I give you +rep or something

Renduaz

2017-09-08, 04:54 AM

It boils down to this.

Because, it is in fact VERY simple to find a location in the Outer Planes which could be argued not to be part of the "Domain" of some Deity.

Only because you assume that each and every space in an Outer Plane is the domain of one deity or planar ruler or another as a realm of thought and spirit embodied by it, whether divided between 5 or a 1000 Planar Rulers - and apparently every of those deities hates any type of travel and forbids Gate.

You handcuff yourself ... and then you complain your hands are tied.
Sorry, but that's not our problem

Very easy in homebrew campaigns that you'd designate as such yourself, sure. Go ahead and name some of these "VERY SIMPLE" locations in the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk and how you'd learn about and reach them. Nine Hells are all explicitly divided into the layers with each Archdevil and Asmodeus at the top ( And the DMG saying that they can impede your travel anywhere in the Nine Hells ), the Upper Planes are mostly divided between the various deities of Good and racial panthetons, most of the Abyssal lairs are said to be ruled by Demon Lords, and so forth. I'm waiting.

Can we favorite posts on here? Can I give you +rep or something

Having to decide as the DM is not the problem. The problem is that there is very little conceivable reason for any planar ruler to make themselves vulnerable to the forces of other rulers, to disrupt the hierarchy and whatever duties they have for their servants, and to expose themselves to countless, infinite risks by letting trillions of mages from every Prime Material, Githyanki ship, Sigil location, different Plane and so on to snatch beings from their plane nilly-willy for whatever machinations they have planned, instead of, you know - Doing the inconceivable and Banning "Gate" entirely, except for those who work for them or have come to ask for permission to summon a certain servant, at a certain time, in a way that fits the planar ruler's plans. . And if you already gained such approval, then you might as well have that being accompany you ( In disguise, hiding or not ) for the duration you have been given approval for, or literally just "Message" it since you know it's name and ask it to Plane Shift. Instead of wasting a 9th level spell slot.

Not to mention just how hard gaining such an approval is going to be in the first place for any creature worth it's weight in CR more than a simple summoning spell, and given just how much gold a spell such as "Planar Ally" for example ( And it's the deities which power Cleric spells ) requires for the precious time of even a mid-level planar creature at the deity's behest. If the stars align, you might be given leave to bring a couple of powerful creatures for a specific mission important to the planar ruler himself, and no further, or maybe once in every long while.

StoicLeaf

2017-09-08, 05:24 AM

holy **** each and every single time.

Renduaz, your reading comprehension and/or unwillingness to read between the lines is shocking.
It's reached a point where I'm pretty sure that you're either trolling on purpose or suffering from autism.

You've been given multiple explanations of how and why gate can work.
If you aren't happy with that, if you aren't happy with the DM being able to thwart the use of it more easily than with other spells, then don't take it!

But remember, everyone else is fine with the way it is!

Unoriginal

2017-09-08, 05:27 AM

Very easy in homebrew campaigns that you'd designate as such yourself, sure. Go ahead and name some of these "VERY SIMPLE" locations in the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk and how you'd learn about and reach them. Nine Hells are all explicitly divided into the layers with each Archdevil and Asmodeus at the top ( And the DMG saying that they can impede your travel anywhere in the Nine Hells ), the Upper Planes are mostly divided between the various deities of Good and racial panthetons, most of the Abyssal lairs are said to be ruled by Demon Lords, and so forth. I'm waiting.

Aside from the Nine Hells, there is no Plane that are described as *entirely* controlled by a deity or planar ruler. The Upper Planes contain many of the domains of the gods, but there are plenty of "unclaimed territories", so to speak. In the Abyss, while many layers are either partially or totally dominated by one demon or another, there are a near infinity of them that are not under the control of anyone. And that is not counting other planes that are explicitly described as not under the total control of someone in particular.

Also, concerning what you said on your other post:

While planes are not really based on physical distances, we DO know that deities's domain can be limited to only a certain part of a plane. Tiamat only rule a part of the first layer of Hell, for exemple.

The problem is that there is very little conceivable reason for any planar ruler to make themselves vulnerable to the forces of other rulers,

What "forces of other rulers"? A planar ruler can very well decide "the Outsiders who serve my rivals/my enemies can't Gate in, I'll deal with the other Gates in a case-by-case basis."

and to expose themselves to countless, infinite risks by letting trillions of mages from every Prime Material, Githyanki ship, Sigil location, different Plane and so on to snatch beings from their plane nilly-willy for whatever machinations they have planned

Even imagining that there are this many mages capable of casting Gate who all decide to snatch the servants of one particular planar ruler, the ruler wouldn't be exposed to any risk, because they still will have many, many more servants. Not to mention the planar ruler could also decide a policy like "I'm allowing 5% of my people to be Gate at any time, no more"

Unoriginal, you and I are not going to agree on this. You don't have a problem with players wasting their action due to factors they couldn't have known. I do. And when those factors are something I as the DM had to decide, not just rules I could point to, it's even worse. This spell, for me, is a perfect example of bad spell design for a variety of reasons, many of which I've elucidated.

So let me cut to the chase. If you read the spell Gate, and did not immediately dislike it, then you and I are fundamentally different in terms of what we want from the game. That doesn't make you wrong. But what it does mean is that disagreeing with me, insulting me, trying to dismiss my arguments, and quoting individual parts of my post like a Youtube reply video are going to have no impact on either my opinion or the opinions of those who agree with me.

You'll never convince anyone over the Internet, nor does a difference of opinion make either of us wrong. I posted my opinion on Gate. I could have started an argument with the other posters, but I didn't. I said what I thought and didn't call anyone out. You did the opposite.

I cannot say that your opinion is wrong, this is true, and I am not doing it. If you hate Gate, neither I nor anyone can invalidate your feeling.

However, what I can debate is the facts upon which people base their opinions. And the facts of the Gate spell are that a planar ruler forbidding it is very, very unlikely unless if said ruler has a reason to personally foil your attempt, and that even if the planar ruler does so there are ways to use Gate to go around the issue.

As for being insulting, it is you who have qualified my exemples of other instances where the PCs' actions were made ineffectual due to the actions of NPCs of thing that you were "made up examples for this thread and I'm only humoring by even replying to them", so it's pretty clear you consider debating with me as beneath you.

I'm sorry if you didn't likeI reacted with sarcasm to your utter contempt.

Kryx

2017-09-08, 06:01 AM

But remember, everyone else is fine with the way it is!
Ignoring the craziness of the claims made:

I wouldn't necessarily say that "everyone is fine with the way it is". If we look at Treantmonk's guide for example:

Gate: You open a portal to another plane (5,000gp component - not consumed). Plane Shift of course can be used to travel to different planes, but this one can draw through a powerful creature from another plane. You just need to consider 2 things: 1) You need to know its true name. 2) You have no control over it when it comes through the gate. #2 is really the fly in the ointment. This can be used in conjunction with Planar Binding to try to control the creature, again, you need a true name. (No, Asmodeus is likely not his true name)
Red is the worst category that Treantmonk has so I would say that Gate isn't a competetive choice for a 9th level spell slot.

Renduaz

2017-09-08, 06:22 AM

Aside from the Nine Hells, there is no Plane that are described as *entirely* controlled by a deity or planar ruler. The Upper Planes contain many of the domains of the gods, but there are plenty of "unclaimed territories", so to speak. In the Abyss, while many layers are either partially or totally dominated by one demon or another, there are a near infinity of them that are not under the control of anyone. And that is not counting other planes that are explicitly described as not under the total control of someone in particular.

Also, concerning what you said on your other post:

While planes are not really based on physical distances, we DO know that deities's domain can be limited to only a certain part of a plane. Tiamat only rule a part of the first layer of Hell, for exemple.

What "forces of other rulers"? A planar ruler can very well decide "the Outsiders who serve my rivals/my enemies can't Gate in, I'll deal with the other Gates in a case-by-case basis."

Even imagining that there are this many mages capable of casting Gate who all decide to snatch the servants of one particular planar ruler, the ruler wouldn't be exposed to any risk, because they still will have many, many more servants. Not to mention the planar ruler could also decide a policy like "I'm allowing 5% of my people to be Gate at any time, no more"

I cannot say that your opinion is wrong, this is true, and I am not doing it. If you hate Gate, neither I nor anyone can invalidate your feeling.

However, what I can debate is the facts upon which people base their opinions. And the facts of the Gate spell are that a planar ruler forbidding it is very, very unlikely unless if said ruler has a reason to personally foil your attempt, and that even if the planar ruler does so there are ways to use Gate to go around the issue.

As for being insulting, it is you who have qualified my exemples of other instances where the PCs' actions were made ineffectual due to the actions of NPCs of thing that you were "made up examples for this thread and I'm only humoring by even replying to them", so it's pretty clear you consider debating with me as beneath you.

I'm sorry if you didn't likeI reacted with sarcasm to your utter contempt.

Then do the same thing I asked Qube. Name me those "uncontrolled" areas in the planes, how you intend to learn about them in order to first reach them in the first place, and then what kind of benefit you believe you can derive by doing so given the fact you'll need to learn the true name of each and every single wandering creature you want to summon. All the famous locations in the DMG are under the control of one planar ruler or another. Dis, The Demonweb Pits, most of the Abyssal layers, and pretty much every realm within an Upper Plane that actually has a description is the dominion of the various Upper Plane deities.

You're now in my campaign. You have to research wherever it is you're planning to go to ( For a general target destination within a plane using Plane Shift if you have the tuning fork, or precise location with Gate ), and I defer to the "popular" destinations of the DMG in deciding which information is most likely available to you. Next up, go ahead and name your general target destination or precise location which you are so convinced to be uncontrolled by any sort of Planar Ruler. "I'd like to Plane Shift/Gate into____" - Fill the sentence.

And yes, deity domains are limited only to parts, but have you missed what I've wrote? A single deity doesn't rule the whole plane. Multiple deities are the embodiment of multiple realms within the plane, but almost ALL known realms that I know of are under the sway of some planar ruler or the other, rather than a "No-Man's Land".

Infinite risks = In the information which could be gleaned, order which could be disrupted, mind control that could be attempted, and so on, whenever you allow random 20th level mages to kidnap your servants into a place of their choosing ( In all likelihood some warded, magic circle'd, protected area ) for no reason.

"I'm allowing 5% of my people to be Gated by random mages at all times just because" - WHY? Why in the hell would Lathander want random mages to forcefully hijack a holy Solar or why would Shar want to lose servants, when they can just demand gifts or service in exchange for a single usage instead, or only permit it for their dedicated cultists and so forth? You need to stop thinking like Unoriginal who wants to prove Gate's usefulness and start thinking like the deity or planar ruler you're meant to roleplay as a DM. Why would they willingly choose to allow something that would be worse for them in every way than something that would be more beneficial in every single way ( Only permitting "Gate" to those who serve their goals )?

Unoriginal

2017-09-08, 06:25 AM

"Not competitive" is not the same as "useless". No one is arguing that summoning with Gate is a great, easy thing to do, because it's deliberately difficult (and for good reasons, given it can potentially give you a very high CR goon who acts independently of you).

But not even Treantmont is saying "this spell is useless because a planar ruler can block the portal".

Renduaz

2017-09-08, 06:33 AM

"Not competitive" is not the same as "useless". No one is arguing that summoning with Gate is great, because it's deliberately difficult (and for good reasons).

But not even Treantmont is saying "this spell is useless because a planar ruler can block the portal".

The "True Name" business combined with the ability of any Planar Ruler to "Nope." the attempt of a random mage to kidnap various servants without even paying homage or tribute, both turn this spell into something completely unworthy of the 9th level slot it occupies, while everything it would take for it to actually become perfectly balanced is to remove the idiotic "Or anywhere within their domain" line. You still couldn't hijack the Planar Rulers/Archdukes themselves ( Since it can't open in their presence ), you'd still have to do some searching to find out some True Names, but at least it would actually work consistently like every other spell.

Nifft

2017-09-08, 06:37 AM

Easy answer for the "planar ruler" thing: just play in a setting like Eberron where the gods don't live in a place you can visit (and where the gods might not be real anyway).

Boom, every plain is outside a god's dominion, since gods don't have dominion over any part of any plane.

Kryx

2017-09-08, 06:53 AM

"Not competitive" is not the same as "useless".
Agreed. I'm just responding to the "It's fine the way it is!" message. It could definitely be changed to be more competitive.

qube

2017-09-08, 07:02 AM

Renduaz

2017-09-08, 07:10 AM

[QUOTE=Renduaz;22364113]Very easy in homebrew campaigns that you'd designate as such yourself, sure. Go ahead and name some of these "VERY SIMPLE" locations in the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk and how you'd learn about and reach them. Nine Hells are all explicitly divided into the layers with each Archdevil and Asmodeus at the top ( And the DMG saying that they can impede your travel anywhere in the Nine Hells ), the Upper Planes are mostly divided between the various deities of Good and racial panthetons, most of the Abyssal lairs are said to be ruled by Demon Lords, and so forth. I'm waiting.[quote]
I shall show you how easy it is:

the Upper Planes are mostly divided between the various deities of Good and racial panthetons, most of the Abyssal lairs are said to be ruled by Demon Lords

Considering the suddle, but very important difference with what you said earlier

each and every space in an Outer Plane is the domain of one deity or planar ruler or ...

Not a single word I need to add.

It's implied in the DMG that the existence of the "space" itself in ANY Outer Planes is intertwined with the spiritual home of a deity. I personally don't know of ANY official location in the Upper Planes that ISN'T under the domain of a planar ruler, even if *hypothetically* there could be no-man zones. Don't add a single word, sure.

"the landscape can change at a whim of the powerful forces that dwell on these planes, which can remake them completely ( Remaking THE ENTIRE PLANES THEMSELVES COMPLETELY ), effectively erasing and rebuilding existence"

"When discussing anything to do with deities , the language used must be highly metaphorical. Their actual homes aren't literally places at all, but exemplify the idea that the Outer Planes are realms of thought and spirit"

"many sages refer to the Outer Planes as divine planes , spiritual planes , or godly planes , for the Outer Planes are best known as the homes of deities."

Outer Planes, in whole, are the "homes of deities". The Homes of Deities are not literally places, but "exemplify the idea of being realms of thought and spirit". The landscape of the Outer Planes, as a whole, "can change at the whim of the powerful forces that dwell on these planes at a whim, reshaping reality itself"

It's all but spelling out in the Dungeon Master's Guide that everywhere in the Outer Planes is tied to some Planar Ruler. I'm merely entertaining the notion of "No-Man's lands" as a possibility, and responding that even as a possibility, they would still be almost impossible to find, nor would they yield many true names or useful creatures should one somehow find them.

Spore

2017-09-08, 07:22 AM

By the time you are able to Gate in SOMETHING you likely have some allegiances with some planes already. So yeah, Necro McDeathface the Lich Necromancer is not going to be summoning Solars with that spell anytime soon. In a similar vein, Archmage Bobinsky the Great Protector of the Realm will not be able to pull out Asmodeus' Archfiends.

We have played a few high level casters as well, and summoning is an interesting topic as it includes a NPC faction to your personal RP. So my PF summoner (would logically have been a Warlock in 5e) could summon templated fiendish animals and has "bonded" with a few demons. Devils were out of her reach, the DM would have blocked any attempt to summon a good outsider too. (Or he would have made my persuasion checks to convince the solar of a common enemy sky-high).

On a similar vein I had a Nordic themed cleric (cold, death, glory and war were main themes) so my DM provided me with a free Valkyrie to aid me in the final battle of the campaign. I was aided by a few undead warriors (some sort of weird Ragnarok-esque scenario where the heroes come back as undead to fight the last fight). We were fighting the armies of the order (LG god was "corrupted" by an evil entity but managed to stay LN) so forces of chaos (or even demons) would have been more effective. But if you don't have "friends on the other side", you can't procure so much as a quasit.

Sigreid

2017-09-08, 07:28 AM

I think it'd know, this is a 9th level spell we're talking about, that's a serious amount of power and I would imagine a deity would be at least curious about the uninvited guest. I think would it care is a better question. Still, this reflects one of the ways in which 5e breaks from D&D's past. In older editions of the game going through the planes godhunting was a common endgame scenario, in 5e the gods are always a big cut above the player characters, they aren't there to be slayed, and they're powerful enough to just "nope" your attempt to do so.

I would rule that they would be aware that a gate has opened, but they would not know that one was being opened unless they were already watching the caster in question.

There may be consequences once you have obtained this attention. Or the deity may shrug it off or actively support them.

smcmike

2017-09-08, 07:34 AM

The problem with this criticism is it is entirely based upon the "logic" of deities.

If deities have logic, it's inaccessible to mortals. There is no "logical" necessity that any deity prevent the characters from using Gate. That's a DM decision based upon the campaign needs, and a good DM will usually allow it, unless you've done something specifically to draw the attention of the deity in question.

The assumption that deities might feel "threatened" by the machinations of the party isn't well supported by the ineffable nature of 5e deities.

StoicLeaf

2017-09-08, 07:37 AM

Ignoring the craziness of the claims made:

I wouldn't necessarily say that "everyone is fine with the way it is". If we look at Treantmonk's guide for example:

Red is the worst category that Treantmonk has so I would say that Gate isn't a competetive choice for a 9th level spell slot.

A link to one guide? Anecdotal?
5e is the game of rulings, not rules. If you don't like that the DM has to throw you a bone for some spells to work then it isn't the system for you in the first place. Treants assessment is no different.
And this is what renduaz threads always boil down to. He gets his panties in a twist because RAW, people offer him explanations/advice on how to view it differently, he doubles down on the idiocy and repeat ad infinitum.

Gate's fine, deal with it, *sunglasses*

qube

2017-09-08, 07:57 AM

Red is the worst category that Treantmonk has so I would say that Gate isn't a competetive choice for a 9th level spell slot.I would like to note it is not:

The Color Guide:
Blue: I love this option
Green: This is a good option overall
Purple: Middle of the Road - I could take or leave it
Orange: The option is poor or overly Circumstantial
Red: Red alert - This is a turkey
Brown: Crap is brown, this stuff is so rank, I couldn’t even rate it red

Considering that he rates 3 spells as red, and wish should be one (considering he forgets that if you use wish for anything else then an 8th level spell, you got a decent chance of permanently losing it) - of 12 spells; Gate is indeed not the spell you want to be your main spell, but it's still a decent spell to have in your spellbook from a utility point of view.

... heck, Gate is also great because it creates something, opposite to, for example, teleport or planeshift. Lets place the gate adjacent the BBEG, and the other inside a vulcano. 18d10 damage while standing in front of it and plus 10d10 until the BBEG gets ou (using the rules for being submerged & wading through lava)

Unoriginal

2017-09-08, 08:03 AM

Then do the same thing I asked Qube. Name me those "uncontrolled" areas in the planes, how you intend to learn about them in order to first reach them in the first place, and then what kind of benefit you believe you can derive by doing so given the fact you'll need to learn the true name of each and every single wandering creature you want to summon. All the famous locations in the DMG are under the control of one planar ruler or another. Dis, The Demonweb Pits, most of the Abyssal layers, and pretty much every realm within an Upper Plane that actually has a description is the dominion of the various Upper Plane deities.

Not addressing the rest of your post right now due to time constraint, but to answer this, and only including what is described in the DMG:

Astral:
-The entire plane, aside arguably from the Githyanki city of Tu'narath.

-The Color Pools, for a named area

Ethereal:

-Border Ethereal: any area equivalent to one in the Material Plane

-Deep Ethereal: the whole plane, but more specifically the curtains to different planes

Feywild:

-Any area equivalent to one in the Material Plane, aside from the ones claimed by an archfey

-The Feywild side of a Fey Crossing

Shadowfell:

-Any area equivalent to one in the Material Plane, except if it somehow is a Domain of Dread

-The Shadowfell side of a Shadow Crossing

Plane of Air:

-the Labyrinth Winds except the hidden realms that are "here and there" (assuming the ruler of the particular realm is powerful enough)

-The Sirroco Straits (no planar ruler described)

-The Great Conflagration except the floating realms that are "here and there" (assuming the ruler of the particular realm is powerful enough)

-The Mistral Reach (no planar ruler described)

Plane of Earth:

-The Frunace (no planar ruler described aside from maybe specific forges under Dao control)

-The Swamp of Oblivion (no planar ruler described)

-The Mud Hills (no planar ruler described)

Plane of Fire:

-The Cinder Wastes (no planar ruler described)

-The Fountain of Creations (no planar ruler except maybe small parts claimed by powerful enough entities)

-The Sea of Fire and its islands (no planar ruler described), aside from the City of Brass at its shores

Plane of Water:

-the Sea of World and its islands (no planar ruler described)

-The Darkened Depths (no planar ruler described)

-the Isle of Dread (no planar ruler described)

-The Silt Flats (no planar ruler described)

-The Sea of Ice (no planar ruler described)

-The Frostfell (no planar ruler described)

Multi-planes areas:

-The River Styx (no planar ruler described)

-The Infinite Staircase (no planar ruler described)

Mount Celestia:

-Any area of the Silver Sea or the mountainous plateaus (no planar ruler described, with possible exceptions if the area has a powerful enough guardian)

Bytopia:

-Any area of the two layers (no planar ruler described)

Elysium:

-Any area of the plane (no planar ruler described)

The Beastlands:

-Any area of the plane (no planar ruler described)

Arborea:

-Any area except the homes of the elven deities

Ysgard:

-Any area of the plane (no planar ruler described, with possible exceptions if the area has a powerful enough being in it)

Limbo:

-Any area of the plane (no planar ruler described, the Githzerai monks are not powerful enough to forbid Gate)

Pandemonium:

-Any area of the plane (no planar ruler described)

Carceri:

-Any area of the plane (no planar ruler described)

Hades:

-Any area of the plane (no planar ruler described)

Gehenna:

-Any area of the plane (no planar ruler described)

Acheron:

-Any area of the plane (except arguably the ones under the control of the warmongering gods' legions)

Arcadia:

-Any area except the Storm Kings' castles

The Outlands:

Any area except Sigil

Note that the outsiders who are in those areas are entirely free game as far as Gate is concerned.

As to how to learn about said: aside from divination magic, you can consult text on the subject, scholars who have studied the planes, planar travelers (particularly in places like Sigil or other planar hubs) or the natives of those areas who can be contacted through various means.

So, as you see, aside from the Nine Hells, the layers of the Abyss under control by a Demon Lord, the realms of powerful Genie lords, and the specific homes of some gods or local entities, most of the planes are freely accessible with Gate.

... heck, Gate is also great because it creates something, opposite to, for example, teleport or planeshift. Lets place the gate adjacent the BBEG, and the other inside a vulcano. 18d10 damage while standing in front of it and plus 10d10 until the BBEG gets ou (using the rules for being submerged & wading through lava)

I've used this trick myself, though not in 5e.

And it wasn't laval, it was holy water from the high-pressure, incredibly cold depths of Elysium's Silver Sea.

Needless to say, a Lich's armies do not like stories-high geysers of holy water that turns into ice once projected.

Kryx

2017-09-08, 08:04 AM

I would like to note it is not
Tricksy guide writers and their different ratings! I thought I checked it, but thanks for pointing out my mistake

Gate is indeed not the spell you want to be your main spell, but it's still a decent spell to have in your spellbook from a utility point of view.
I question the utility though. For a 9th level spell you have no control of the creature. It generally wouldn't be a very usable spell I'd wager, but maybe I'm missing something

Lets place the gate adjacent the BBEG, and the other inside a vulcano. 18d10 damage while standing in front of it and plus 10d10 until the BBEG gets ou (using the rules for being submerged & wading through lava)
18d10 is far less damage than meteor swarm is damage is the goal. This also assume the BBEG has no means of flying or teleporting. Not very difficult for a BBEG at 17+ level to avoid imo.

Willie the Duck

2017-09-08, 08:20 AM

A link to one guide? Anecdotal?

So Kryx differs to Treantmonk's work as educated opinion. It's certainly not a bad position to take, so long as it is acknowledged. The worst one can say is that Treantmonk might have different priorities. Also, the question that Treantmonk was brought in to address was whether other people have a problem with things. Treantmonk is actually giving a (one person, perhaps educated) opinion on how good something is, not how popular it is. So his guide would actually better serve the original topic, and not the question of whether others have a problem with the spell (unless you mean Treantmonk himself, who is one person).

The problem with this criticism is it is entirely based upon the "logic" of deities.

If deities have logic, it's inaccessible to mortals.

I think that this, or more broadly an extension to 'deities and the outer planes,' could be construed as the bigger problem than whether the deities would or wouldn't be blocking Gate spells. The described multiverse of D&D (and I might get some of this wrong, because I still have a lot of 0e-4e canon in my head) doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. Some of the planes are infinite, some are not. Some have infinite number of subplanes, others don't. But in either case, some of them are defined as being finite--but they are tied to an infinite Astral plane and an infinite number of prime material planes. These planes should need an infinite number of outsiders (devils, solars, demons, inevitables, etc.) to deal with these PMPs, which is going to be a problem for any of them with defined space. Likewise any mortal (or at least defeat-able) planar rulers are going to have to be deflecting an infinite number of coup attempts, assassinations, whatever one does against the Asmodeus's of the multiverse (of which there is apparently only one, despite infinite everything else). The whole thing has enough holes in it that the anything we can say about the outer planes, and whether there would, could, or ought to be places in them not covered by domains and/or outsiders who would or wouldn't be protected from Gate-casting wizards can be both wrong and right at the same time.

smcmike

2017-09-08, 08:26 AM

I think that this, or more broadly an extension to 'deities and the outer planes,' could be construed as the bigger problem than whether the deities would or wouldn't be blocking Gate spells. The described multiverse of D&D (and I might get some of this wrong, because I still have a lot of 0e-4e canon in my head) doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. Some of the planes are infinite, some are not. Some have infinite number of subplanes, others don't. But in either case, some of them are defined as being finite--but they are tied to an infinite Astral plane and an infinite number of prime material planes. These planes should need an infinite number of outsiders (devils, solars, demons, inevitables, etc.) to deal with these PMPs, which is going to be a problem for any of them with defined space. Likewise any mortal (or at least defeat-able) planar rulers are going to have to be deflecting an infinite number of coup attempts, assassinations, whatever one does against the Asmodeus's of the multiverse (of which there is apparently only one, despite infinite everything else). The whole thing has enough holes in it that the anything we can say about the outer planes, and whether there would, could, or ought to be places in them not covered by domains and/or outsiders who would or wouldn't be protected from Gate-casting wizards can be both wrong and right at the same time.

Because the planes and the deities and everything else only exists to the extent that it is required to for the purpose of the game. There is no point in trying to make any of them make any logical sense beyond this purpose. If a character casts Gate, and there is no reason grounded in the game to prevent it from working, the DM should allow it to work. The "logic" of beings with no other connection to the campaign shouldn't come into it.

PhoenixPhyre

2017-09-08, 08:41 AM

Because the planes and the deities and everything else only exists to the extent that it is required to for the purpose of the game. There is no point in trying to make any of them make any logical sense beyond this purpose. If a character casts Gate, and there is no reason grounded in the game to prevent it from working, the DM should allow it to work. The "logic" of beings with no other connection to the campaign shouldn't come into it.

Exactly. This variance is a feature, not a bug unless you're looking to enforce your will against a hostile DM. My version of the forgotten realms (although I don't use FR) may be different from your version. Your (general you) "logic" means nothing divorced from a set of preconditions and assumptions--those of a single interpretation of a single setting.

This is why I grow so weary of these RAW debates--they don't matter. RAW has no inherent power; claiming something as RAW doesn't force someone to play along. All that matters is what a table of players decide.

qube

2017-09-08, 09:11 AM

I question the utility though. For a 9th level spell you have no control of the creature. It generally wouldn't be a very usable spell I'd wager, but maybe I'm missing somethingThe lack of a HD limitation? Can you imagine you'd be able to call for Elminster AND had full control over him?

18d10 is far less damage than meteor swarm is damage is the goal. This also assume the BBEG has no means of flying or teleporting. Not very difficult for a BBEG at 17+ level to avoid imo.three points of note:
18d10 is what you get the moment the gate opens ... so I'm thinking more reflex save, then move away.
unlike meteor swarm, the enemy then has to deal with 10d10 each turn untill he can get out of the lava
the latter, granted is conditional, but in fairness ... how far can you teleport with meteor swarm? Just to say, if some random alternative use of a spell would be able to plainly match the power of a pure damage spell of same level, either gate would be overpowered or meteor swarm underpowered.

Oppositely, for instance, Incendiary Cloud, who's level 8, only deals 10d8 per turn and only for a minute (while gate only stops conjuring new lava after a minute).

But with resistances being a thing, you could lava a weak-against-fire, gate to the elemental plane of water to jetstream the god elemental of fire, or directly connect with some tempest-riddled icy plain; etc ...

Oh, btw: If dieties don't allow gate, one can only wonder why they grant it to their clerics ...

edit:

I've used this trick myself, though not in 5e.

And it wasn't laval, it was holy water from the high-pressure, incredibly cold depths of Elysium's Silver Sea.

Needless to say, a Lich's armies do not like stories-high geysers of holy water that turns into ice once projected.LOL.

Sigreid

2017-09-08, 09:19 AM

My use of gate would likely be as a massive f- you. I could see an angry wizard opening a gate to the abyss and just leaving it open and teleporting away. If all I really want to do is cause pain, suffering and death on a grand scale, I don't need to give the demons orders.

Tanarii

2017-09-08, 09:42 AM

I'd like to thank those of you taking the time to go into debate minutia on this one. This thread has actually helped me think a bit about how Gate can and can't work. It's not been an issue for me so far (because 9th level spell) ... but PCs will eventually be powerful enough that Gate will be a part of the campaign, even at a much lower level. Be it via magic item or NPC (edit: either allied, cajoled by PCs, or enemy). And I'll be honest, that's how I view most 9th level (or even 7-8th level spells). Single-use tools for the DM to introduce via NPC or magic item, as needed to move forward an adventure.

So far I'm seeing:
advantages:
1) Pinpoint accuracy for planar travel.
2) high capacity travel (many creatures can pass through)
3) Draws a creature through to from anywhere across the planes without knowing its precise location

Disadvantages:
4) powers/gods/deities can stop the portal if in their presence or domain, which is some portion of the planes, but not all.
5) short duration
6) need to know the creature's name. True Names for powerful Demons and all Devils, per MM sidebars.

This makes it primarily a powerful transportation tool, and not to put a fine point on it, small invasion force tool. An even more powerful retrieval tool, since you can save anyone stuck on the planes. And a powerful summoning tool ... if dangerous, since you need to figure out other forms of control/safety with hostile creatures.

Given all that, I'm still fine with the limitation that a diety can stop a gate in its own domain. And I'm glad it's explicit not just as a DM. That's a limitation a player needs to know about and be taking into consideration. It's critical information for a player to be considering for what is, IMO, a forward thinking spell that requires planning. Any player trying to use Gate like Meteor Swarm for example, as a hammer, deserves what they get.

Can we favorite posts on here? Can I give you +rep or somethingThanks. But trust me, I'll take some ridiculous stance on something at some point and you'll be thinking "what an idiot!" :smallwink:

Willie the Duck

2017-09-08, 09:45 AM

Because the planes and the deities and everything else only exists to the extent that it is required to for the purpose of the game. There is no point in trying to make any of them make any logical sense beyond this purpose. If a character casts Gate, and there is no reason grounded in the game to prevent it from working, the DM should allow it to work. The "logic" of beings with no other connection to the campaign shouldn't come into it.

Oh, no argument here. I was working within the context of the argument about the defined multiverse. What you've described as a subcomponent of an even bigger issue--the situation where the book-described background and context of the game grow in importance that they hedge out their actual purpose of creating a world in which the player characters can exist--for people who care about them and let them (the backgrounds and contexts, that is), of which the OP appears to be one.

In my own games, there is only one PMP (unless I need more, for Sliders-esque interdimensional adventure), only the outer planes I need, and Asmodeus only exists if he furthers my needs. Certainly the average Demon who may or may not be a contender for a Gate spell does not have an archfiend overlord playing interception for them unless I want it, and so on and so forth. But I'm sure that is way too much houseruling for this discussion.

Unoriginal

2017-09-08, 12:24 PM

Something that should be noted is that saying "RAW this spell is useless because of my personal interpretation of the deities" is self-contradictory.

Because this whole debate is based on how the DM interprets the planar rulers, so by definition it is not a question of RAW.

ThePolarBear

2017-09-08, 12:50 PM

About True Names:

You do NOT need a True Name to summon a Fiend, a Devil or an Angel. You never did and going back to what the various parts on True Names in the MM say you'll notice that the True Name also give you limited control on the creature summoned, which is explicitly denied in the Gate spell. If True names were required then the very same part on the MM would be quite redundant, given that it explicits that you gain a measure of control on the being.

The common name is the only requirement to summon a creature. The True Name is used if you want to also have power over said creature - like it has always been.

KorvinStarmast

2017-09-08, 01:32 PM

It's been my impression that, across every edition of D&D, each plane is bigger than the sum of deity domains upon that plane. In other words, each deity's domain is a section of a plane, not a whole plane. Does 5e contradict that somewhere? Fair question.

Renduaz threads are gifts that keep on giving. Yeah.

I'll just throw out there that the gods of D&D are not omniscient or all knowing. As a DM, unless I have decided that the deity is already watching the spellcaster for some reason there is no reason for him/her/it to even know that the gate spell is being cast. Unless that deity has had so many uninvited visitors over the years that he has a few celestials or fiends on Gate Patrol. (Might be a neat basis for a scenario or module?)

advantages:
1) Pinpoint accuracy for planar travel.
2) high capacity travel (many creatures can pass through)
3) Draws a creature through to from anywhere across the planes without knowing its precise location
Disadvantages:
4) powers/gods/deities can stop the portal if in their presence or domain, which is some portion of the planes, but not all.
5) short duration
6) need to know the creature's name. True Names for powerful Demons and all Devils, per MM sidebars.

This makes it primarily a powerful transportation tool, and not to put a fine point on it, small invasion force tool. An even more powerful retrieval tool, since you can save anyone stuck on the planes. And a powerful summoning tool ... if dangerous, since you need to figure out other forms of control/safety with hostile creatures. Given all that, I'm still fine with the limitation that a diety can stop a gate in its own domain.
And I'm glad it's explicit not just as a DM. That's a limitation a player needs to know about and be taking into consideration. It's critical information for a player to be considering for what is, IMO, a forward thinking spell that requires planning. Yeah. Neat spell, but as with much high level magic, some side effects or hazards may be included.

Scathain

2017-09-08, 01:41 PM

Not addressing the rest of your post right now due to time constraint, but to answer this, and only including what is described in the DMG:

Astral:
-The entire plane, aside arguably from the Githyanki city of Tu'narath.

-The Color Pools, for a named area

Ethereal:

-Border Ethereal: any area equivalent to one in the Material Plane

-Deep Ethereal: the whole plane, but more specifically the curtains to different planes

Feywild:

-Any area equivalent to one in the Material Plane, aside from the ones claimed by an archfey

-The Feywild side of a Fey Crossing

Shadowfell:

-Any area equivalent to one in the Material Plane, except if it somehow is a Domain of Dread

-The Shadowfell side of a Shadow Crossing

Plane of Air:

-the Labyrinth Winds except the hidden realms that are "here and there" (assuming the ruler of the particular realm is powerful enough)

-The Sirroco Straits (no planar ruler described)

-The Great Conflagration except the floating realms that are "here and there" (assuming the ruler of the particular realm is powerful enough)

-The Mistral Reach (no planar ruler described)

Plane of Earth:

-The Frunace (no planar ruler described aside from maybe specific forges under Dao control)

-The Swamp of Oblivion (no planar ruler described)

-The Mud Hills (no planar ruler described)

Plane of Fire:

-The Cinder Wastes (no planar ruler described)

-The Fountain of Creations (no planar ruler except maybe small parts claimed by powerful enough entities)

-The Sea of Fire and its islands (no planar ruler described), aside from the City of Brass at its shores

Plane of Water:

-the Sea of World and its islands (no planar ruler described)

-The Darkened Depths (no planar ruler described)

-the Isle of Dread (no planar ruler described)

-The Silt Flats (no planar ruler described)

-The Sea of Ice (no planar ruler described)

-The Frostfell (no planar ruler described)

Multi-planes areas:

-The River Styx (no planar ruler described)

-The Infinite Staircase (no planar ruler described)

Mount Celestia:

-Any area of the Silver Sea or the mountainous plateaus (no planar ruler described, with possible exceptions if the area has a powerful enough guardian)

Bytopia:

-Any area of the two layers (no planar ruler described)

Elysium:

-Any area of the plane (no planar ruler described)

The Beastlands:

-Any area of the plane (no planar ruler described)

Arborea:

-Any area except the homes of the elven deities

Ysgard:

-Any area of the plane (no planar ruler described, with possible exceptions if the area has a powerful enough being in it)

Limbo:

-Any area of the plane (no planar ruler described, the Githzerai monks are not powerful enough to forbid Gate)

Pandemonium:

-Any area of the plane (no planar ruler described)

Carceri:

-Any area of the plane (no planar ruler described)

Hades:

-Any area of the plane (no planar ruler described)

Gehenna:

-Any area of the plane (no planar ruler described)

Acheron:

-Any area of the plane (except arguably the ones under the control of the warmongering gods' legions)

Arcadia:

-Any area except the Storm Kings' castles

The Outlands:

Any area except Sigil

Note that the outsiders who are in those areas are entirely free game as far as Gate is concerned.

As to how to learn about said: aside from divination magic, you can consult text on the subject, scholars who have studied the planes, planar travelers (particularly in places like Sigil or other planar hubs) or the natives of those areas who can be contacted through various means.

So, as you see, aside from the Nine Hells, the layers of the Abyss under control by a Demon Lord, the realms of powerful Genie lords, and the specific homes of some gods or local entities, most of the planes are freely accessible with Gate.

I've used this trick myself, though not in 5e.

And it wasn't laval, it was holy water from the high-pressure, incredibly cold depths of Elysium's Silver Sea.

Needless to say, a Lich's armies do not like stories-high geysers of holy water that turns into ice once projected.

Dang, and that's only addressing one point! Thank you for taking the time to list those out. I think it's clear that there are many avenues for using gate in creative ways that can't be autoblocked. The problem isn't the spell as written, just the imagination of the player and DM limitations; the first of which OP clearly lacks.

jas61292

2017-09-08, 02:42 PM

Yeah, even if you want to rule deities control the entirety of the outer planes, Gate does not limit you to outer planes. So, even in the edition's default setting, you have a number of places you can go to or summon from without worry of interference, such as the elemental planes, shadowfell and feywild.

Temperjoke

2017-09-08, 03:34 PM

Even if a deity is blocking your easy access via the Gate spell, that doesn't mean you can't use it to get someplace that would have a separate access to the plane you're traveling to, such as using Gate to travel to someplace like Sigil, and from there traveling to your destination.

grumbaki

2017-09-08, 03:50 PM

Step1: Mr King says "Do this quest!"
Step2: Mr King says "I don't need to pay you. You should be proud to serve your king."
Step3: Use Gate in his capital, next to something that the King cares about.
Step4: Run away while a powerful demon comes through and wrecks shyt because that is what demons do. You, of course, have the ability to get far away.
Step5: Keep running as the GM uses retaliation as a plot arc.

MinotaurWarrior

2017-09-08, 07:05 PM

I skimmed some sections because of flaming, but did nobody mention this?

Open Portable Hole
Cast Gate
Terrasque

All the best creatures are on the one plane that is never a "Planar Ruler's" domain. Material Uber Alles. The highest CR non-material being is a Solar, at 21. Evil caps out at 20.

Aside from summoning the Terrasque, Ancient Dragons, Krakens, etc, as beef, you can also do this for kidnap, rescue, assassination, a travel service, fall damage (mildly tricky), etc.

Mellack

2017-09-08, 07:28 PM

MinotaurWarrior

2017-09-08, 08:11 PM

One minor problem, a portable hole is only 6' in diameter. So that means you can only gate into it medium creatures, or large if the DM allows them to squeeze. So no terrasque in the portable hole.

The spot you see and where you are standing need to be on a different plane than the named entity. The unoccupied space it lands in doesn't.

Though I'll admit, I never thought about whether or not Gate is hardcapped to 20ft diameter creatures, by the because it does need to draw them through the portal. If so, this specific trick caps out at Liches (same CR as solars) because the gate in a portable hole is limited to 10ft diameter (the hole's depth).

Edit: demiplane still works, I think.

Nifft

2017-09-08, 08:38 PM

Vogonjeltz

2017-09-09, 08:02 AM

Well, you have to suspend disbelief when it comes to interdimensional travel just a bit in this game world. I mean, if Asmodeus has command of an army of devils that can just Plane Shift into the Prime Material Plane at any time, why doesn't he just send them all in at once and take over the place? I mean, legions of devils attacking basically anywhere would mean that place's destruction. So obviously they either can't or won't use this ability all of the time.

This is one of those areas of the rules/logic of the game world that the longer you think about it, the more problems you'll find with it. So it's probably just best to just focus on the various spells and what they say they do, and not worry about the fluff.

If you need a good rules explanation for it: Specific > General. General rule: Deities can block portals. Specific rule: Gate opens a portal where ever you want. Specific (Gate) > General (No Gate).

Well, they don't do that because the opposition would just show up and fight them...or worse (for Azmodean), other Demons/Devils would take the opportunity to invade his seat of power. Ultimately massive invasion of the Material Plane is sticking your neck out and asking it to get lopped off for no real benefit.

That being said, Renduaz's critique is fairly accurate and holds true for most of the higher level spells. They are built in with some fairly heavy limitations on purpose.

Gate is precisely accurate, there is no chance of it opening somewhere you don't want it to. Also it is a two-way portal that you can step in and out of as many times as you like for the full minute. You can transport like 100 guys through a gate in the span of one minute.

On the flip side that precision requires you to know the place exists, and presumably, have actually seen it (otherwise there's no way to be precise!).

Have you reported the offending posts?

The forum rules:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

Scenario 1: A Player tries to gate a powerful duke that Asmodeus wants to keep around for his machinations. He declines to allow it. player loses a single action, and gains the knowledge that Asmodeus is aware of their knowing the Duke's real name. Asmodeus may send someone else in it's place to punish those impudent mortals. Or scry on the players to determine their weaknesses and blind spots. Or send through a contract offer.

Scenario 2: A Player tries to gate a powerful duke that Asmodeus doesn't need for his current machinations. Or he decides this is a great opportunity to try to corrupt a powerful magic using mortal. Duke of hell is summoned, and the players have to deal with a powerful entity who is aware that he's been summoned against his will.

Scenario 3: A player casts Power Word Kill at a powerful archmage. The archmage has 101 HP. The spell is completely wasted through no fault of the player's. On the archmage's turn, he casts Gate directly underneath the the player, sending him tumbling into the elemental plane of fire. player has wasted a spell

Scenario 4: A Player Casts Foresight on the party's scout. The scout had been previously corrupted by the Duke of hell from one of the previous examples. The rogue lies about what they see with the foresight spell.

Scenario 5: A Player casts True Resurrection. Unfortunately, the target, a great hero from history, has been dead 201 years. Or, is happy in the afterlife, having given his or her life to a cause and risks awakening the ancient evil he or she had used given their life to seal away if they should ever return.

all kinds of ways "DM Fiat" can "waste" a 9th level spell. Gate isn't unique, and the ways in which it can act unpredictably due to situations outside the control of the player aren't unique either. Talk to your DM if you have an idea, I guarantee acting like adultsand communicating instead of trying to gotcha them will be more fun for everyone.

Very well said!

And if you already gained such approval, then you might as well have that being accompany you ( In disguise, hiding or not ) for the duration you have been given approval for, or literally just "Message" it since you know it's name and ask it to Plane Shift. Instead of wasting a 9th level spell slot.

Maybe they're busy doing other things and don't have the time/inclination to wander around with a bunch of adventurers, but have promised to provide aid when you need it, and the Gate is the quickest method? (Message might not be on demand enough in a tight situation, requiring the time for the subject to get the message and then do something about it, which maybe they aren't inclined to do, even if their ruler would allow it.)

There are plenty of in universe reasons that a Gate might be allowed or disallowed, and, as noted, there are large swathes of the Planes that have no planar ruler to get in the way of this precision portal creation.

If you really want to get into a plane without the planar ruler abiding that, you need to go looking for a naturally occurring portal or be able to Plane Shift there.

Besides, it's not like anything that comes through a Gate can't just be Banished back to its home plane.