"Certain Greater and Lesser Powers"

[LibraryOgre]

So, I was looking up Turn Undead for something else, and ran across the description of "special" undead in the PH:

"Special creatures include unique undead, free-willed undead of the Negative Material Plane, certain Greater and Lesser Powers, and those undead that dwell in the Outer Planes."

Now, this may be explained elsewhere, but isn't "Powers" usually 2e-speak for Deities?

[hamlet]

It is, usually, though I would probably not let a mortal of any strength actually "Turn" a deity or even demi-deity. It's just two completely different scales of power.

A proxy - like, say, an emissary or whatever - from a deity, on the other hand, sure I suppose. It'd have to be a very strong Cleric though.

To be fair, though, I'm not sure if power was 2e speak for deity until Planescape emerged. So maybe the author had something else in mind. What does the wording surrounding the 1e and BECMI version say?

[BWR]

It certainly was in Planescape, but not so much in other settings. If we're talking about something from the PHB I'd assume the didn't mean deities but just powerful undead like demiliches.

[Lord Torath]

Among other definitions of "powers", yes, it was used to mean deities.
There are no Powers (deities) of the Sphere of All.Are there any official undead gods? Not gods of the undead, but undead who are gods. Vecna might count, I suppose, but I'm not aware of any others. Was Acerack ever elevated to godhood?

Kinda cool/alarming that a 14th level cleric has a decent (40%) chance of turning an undead deity. :smallamused:/:smalleek:

[hamlet]

Vecna was never a god. All attempts to claim the contrary are bald faced lies.:smallbiggrin:

Accererack was not a got either. Just obscenely powerful, crafty, and nasty.

[Digitalelf]

I would probably not let a mortal of any strength actually "Turn" a deity or even demi-deity. It's just two completely different scales of power.

In 2nd edition, it is not the cleric that does the actual turning. The power is sent directly from the cleric's deity and channeled through the cleric.

From the DMG (emphasis mine):


Through the priest or paladin, the deity manifests a portion of its power, terrifying evil, undead creatures or blasting them right out of existence. However, since the power must be channeled through a mortal vessel, success is not always assured.

[LibraryOgre]

In 2nd edition, it is not the cleric that does the actual turning. The power is sent directly from the cleric's deity and channeled through the cleric.


Yes, but since the cleric must take an action, and the ability of the deity to turn is directly dependent upon the level of the cleric, the difference is pretty semantic.

[Tinkerer]

Honestly I think that this was intended for avatars and the like in which case it's to be expected. It isn't uncommon for heralds of a GREAT EVIL in fiction to be turned away by faith up to and including gods (albeit most of those are coming from a far different place). There is no chance of destroying it so congratulations, you either just put the manifestation of an evil god just around the next corner from you where it can probably still harm you or if it can't escape it's circling about 10' away. Once again most likely able to harm you. You also took the cleric out of commission while they are keeping it at bay.

[Digitalelf]

Yes, but since the cleric must take an action, and the ability of the deity to turn is directly dependent upon the level of the cleric, the difference is pretty semantic.

While true on a metagaming level, the point of my post was that IF the ability were to extend to turning evil deities, then it is not an issue of a "mere mortal" making the attempt, it is the cleric's deity that is making the attempt through his flawed mortal follower.

An analogy would be to see the cleric as a vessel in which the deity pours his power into. At lower levels, the cleric is but a small drinking glass, only able to handle a small portion of the deity's power before becoming "full". Whereas a higher level cleric is like a large pitcher, able to handle much more of the deity's power before becoming "full".

If turning were just "mortal vs. deity" then I would agree with hamlet's statement above (i.e. "It's just two completely different scales of power."), but since it is the deity actually pouring a portion of his divine power into the cleric, it is NOT "two completely different scales of power".

[hamlet]

I would, as a DM, still say no. Heck, as a Player I'd say no. It's just . . . silly.

But, then again, having a deity show up in the first place in character is a bit silly for me.

However, I would say that if there were plot/artifact/other extenuating circumstances, it might be possible, but very difficult. Like controlling the Great Crystal of Ka-Thud that is a direct conduit to the deity of Holy Holiness in the hands of a high level cleric . . . then yeah, maybe. But not likely.

Again, it's like an ant trying to turn a human. Even with all the advantages imaginable, an ant is going to go squish and so would any human facing a deity.

But that's me. I MUCH prefer a lower power game where the powers are remote, unknowable, unstattable, and generally more forces of nature than they are individual persons.

[Digitalelf]

that is a direct conduit to the deity of Holy Holiness in the hands of a high level cleric . . . then yeah, maybe. But not likely... ...Again, it's like an ant trying to turn a human. Even with all the advantages imaginable

The cleric's turning ability BTB makes the cleric a "direct conduit to the deity of Holy Holiness", your ant analogy fails to account for that. Ants may be nothing to us, but no human on planet earth has the ability to transfer any part of their being, power, or anything for that matter, to an ant. While the game does.

This is assuming that the phrase in the OP means that a cleric can at higher levels turn the very gods themselves, but if it does mean just that, then the divine power channeled through the cleric while turning gives said cleric going up against a deity, a fighting chance, however small... Otherwise (assuming it means clerics can turn deities), why would it be in there?

I find the thought intriguing... YMMV.

[Khedrac]

Dredging the depths of my memory...

Could this be a reference back to 1st Ed where demons and devils etc. could be turned as "specials"?

[Knaight]

There was a module centered around straight up killing Llolth, and Vecna explicitly used to be mortal. These two things suggest that the gap between mortal and god isn't really that big in early D&D, and can potentially even be crossed. Given that I have no issue with an undead god being successfully turned by a cleric.