underpowered class?

[slexlollar89]

i know people have already seen threads like this, but i cant help but open one again so...

is it me, or does the warlock become underpowerd at higher levels? what would be some good suggestions at fixing the problem?

[Morty]

Yeah, warlock is widely considered underpowered class. My solution is "don't play warlock, play some less stupid class instead".

[slexlollar89]

well, the warlock is my favoreite class, simply because they are quite fun, flavorfull, and easy. the only thing i dislike are the poor skills (exept UMD:smallsmile: ) and the generally weak invocations. my old dnd group houseruled that the warlock got 4+skills, and could take item creation feats at earlier levels, but that isnt really my thing...

[Saph]

Underpowered at high levels compared to what?

If you're comparing them to a high-level full caster, then sure. Everything is underpowered compared to a high-level full caster. But compared to a Bard or Fighter or Barbarian or Ranger or Rogue, the warlock probably does fine at higher levels. He won't have the damage output, but he'll have a decent range of invocations and being able to make any magic item he has the feat for is pretty handy.

- Saph

[Falrin]

Misread the first thread.

[slexlollar89]

but it is a casting class... sort of! it simply peeves me that warlocks are sort of the runts of the arcane family. besides, the invocation they get can NEVER amount to some of the stuff ive heard or seen wizards and clerics do.

[Morty]

Yeah, but they can cast they invocations all day, unlike wizards or clerics. So if they were able to do wizard-like things they'd be overpowered.

[Green Bean]

I've never played a Warlock, but from what I've heard on the boards the biggest problem is how well a Warlock contributes in a party. Classes are designed to have a specific role; rogues do skill stuff and use sneak attack for back up combatants, fighters dish out damage (though these too are limited in high levels), clerics are support and melee back-up (or front-up: I'm looking at you, CoDzilla). Warlocks don't have a niche. They don't do enough damage enough to fulfil an archer-like role, most of their buffs are self-only, they're too squishy to fight in melee.

Warlocks can use their invocations to protect themselves easily, but that doesn't extend to their companions. Sure, your Warlock will be difficult to pin down, which is some consolation when your opponents ignore your piddily damage and proceed to slaughter the rest of your party.

Of course, my understanding is that Warlocks make great solo villains. With their various protective invocations and low damage, they can be a challenging fight without risking a TPK.

[slexlollar89]

imunderstand that, but even at the level of power they have, they still cant measure up to a good old time stop, delayed blast fireball, timestop delayed firaball combo... hell no.

seriously, most classes deal more damage, and even though the warlock does less damage reliably, they have the potential to die before they are able to deal a reasonable amount of kill. spell resistance foils them all the time (and a lot of post cr 10 creatures have it) and they cant quiken their eldrithc blast EVER!

[Green Bean]

imunderstand that, but even at the level of power they have, they still cant measure up to a good old time stop, delayed blast fireball, timestop delayed firaball combo... hell no.

Well, once wizards learn Time Stop, they've pretty much won anyway. Being weaker than a wizard with level 9 spells is hardly shameful.

[slexlollar89]

solo villians... yay, but if a guy wants to play one, what can he do? sit back and let the fighter beat his melee, sit back and watch the ranger out range him, and break down to tears when the wizard remakes the fabric of the universe. even a monk has something to do for crissakes!

(monk is also one of my favs:smallbiggrin: )

[Morty]

One of the solutions for Warlocks I've seen is to give them additional Eldrith Blasts per round based on BAB. I never tried it, though.

[slexlollar89]

tird it and the guy became a sub-par blaster compared to the sorcerer who could bypass spell resistance.

the blast is fine, its the invocations... even with dragon magic and complete mage they are just...

the wizard uses his ultimate spells and people are like: OMG wow!
the warlock uses his invoactions and people are like :yeah but that old dude with the spell book did it better, hmph!

[Spiryt]

Well, that "niche" thing is little unfair. I also never played Warlock, but with damage reduction and fast healing he is not so squishy. And since he can cast his invocations all day, (many of them are pretty interesting) he's not so bad.
Also, archers can run out of ammo, and they won't run out of eldritch blast.

About "Fixing the problem" - I think that Homebrewing few not more powerful, but more unique invocations will be quite helpful. They could do some inimitable things all day - not bad.

[slexlollar89]

that is agood idea, but homebrew stuff can tend to get too powerful.

i just had an epiphany!! meta-invocation feats!

crap... i know absolutly no way to make mechanics... they dont change spell level (no level based restrictions!).

[Jack Mann]

They already have 'em. Empower spell-like ability and so forth. They don't help that much.

[lord_khaine]

actualy the warlock does have 1 use, he is pretty good at tying down enemy casters.

he has blindsight and fly to chase down flying invisibel mages, he has a unlimitet supply of dispel magic, to remove buffs and summoned monsters, and with Maximise spelllike ability and quicken spelllike ability he can ready an action to fire off a decent blast when the target tries to cast a spell.

besides that he makes for a decent scout, and has some abilities that can tie down lowlv groups of monsters.

[slexlollar89]

you cant use a few of them because of the caster level requirements and the spell level problems

[Hallavast]

The key to making a warlock worth playing is utilizing their ability to make just about any item in the game and use it reliably. They're kinda like toned down artificers with a little blasty ability.

[Green Bean]

Well, that "niche" thing is little unfair. I also never played Warlock, but with damage reduction and fast healing he is not so squishy. And since he can cast his invocations all day, (many of them are pretty interesting) he's not so bad.
Also, archers can run out of ammo, and they won't run out of eldritch blast.



I'll give you the point about squishyness. While they aren't as tough as, say, a fighter, they're better than wizards or sorcerers damage resistance-wise. But like I said, Warlocks can do what they do all day long, which is great, but what they do isn't very good. Sure, you're tough to hit and tougher to catch, but your damage output is crummy and it'll be difficult to help your party.

[slexlollar89]

one use, as opposed to the incredible versatility of a fighter, or a wizard. and besides you cannot quicken sp ability: see the chart in monster manual.

seriously, think about it! a good feat might allow the buff inv. on the warlock affect his party members or something. THAT is really helpful.

[Jacob Orlove]

one use, as opposed to the incredible versatility of a fighter, or a wizard. and besides you cannot quicken sp ability: see the chart in monster manual.
Check the errata for Complete Arcane. Eldritch Blast is equivalent to a 1st level spell (or the spell level equivalent of any blast shape or eldritch essence you attach to it), so you can start applying Empower, Maximize, and Quicken to it once you hit mid-levels.

[slexlollar89]

what errata? like in the book or WoTC stuff?

[Jacob Orlove]

Official D&D Errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a).

[Hallavast]

Check the errata for Complete Arcane. Eldritch Blast is equivalent to a 1st level spell (or the spell level equivalent of any blast shape or eldritch essence you attach to it), so you can start applying Empower, Maximize, and Quicken to it once you hit mid-levels.

So, why did they put metamagic SLAs in the complete arcane then?

[slexlollar89]

that helps... the blst is okay, but im still talking about invocations. seriously, does anybody know of good, balanced (whenever i homebrew i have to triple check it because i tend to ocerpower), homebrew stuff?

[nerulean]

Honestly, any invocation you homebrew that measures up to the best stuff a wizard can do at any level will be overpowered. This is always going to be the case. If you want to see how a warlock can be a powerful class, get your DM to run a long day of adventuring. Three encounters down and the wizard and cleric are out of the spells they rely on, while you're fresh as a daisy. That's the point.

[slexlollar89]

how often does that really happen? the DMs i used to play with would get tired of battles before the casters ran out of spells. the warlock can really shine out of battle, but there arent many oppourtunities to shine since DnD typically revolves around encounters.

[nerulean]

Then I'd honestly say you're playing the wrong campaign for a warlock. As you say, they thrive out of battle, so if you play a 'three battle and nothing else every day' game then yes, a warlock is going to be weak. If you want to make a warlock more powerful and keep it balanced, you're going to have to limit the number of times per day he can do things. If you're going to do that, you might as well just give it up and play a sorcerer instead.

[Nerd-o-rama]

There's two problems here.

1) Full caster classes are overpowered at high levels. I think we can all agree on that.
2) Warlocks are not, despite appearances, casters, in the sense that their abilities are nothing like a Wizard's or Cleric's. Warlocks are, primarily, Ranged Damage specialists ("Archers") with a small number of combat tricks and/or utility spells from their invocations.

Compare a 'lock to a bow-using Ranger, Rogue, or Fighter at high levels, and they do fine, even if they still peak in the 8-12 level range. Compare to CoDzilla or Batman? No chance.

[slexlollar89]

yeah i know... it just sucks. the warlock is probably my favorite class, but it doesnt measure up to the arcane bar that other casters set. i thought about domains or something (like a warlock with fiendish heritage can use an apropriate domain), but i dont know if that could help, and do not have a DnD group to try that with.

[nerulean]

If you want to use some warlock flavour and still pack a fair punch, try Eldritch Disciple from Complete Mage. You need a few cleric levels to qualify, but once you've done that you're almost a full warlock with a bunch of cleric mojo on top.

[slexlollar89]

sweet, will do!

[Spiryt]

how often does that really happen? the DMs i used to play with would get tired of battles before the casters ran out of spells. the warlock can really shine out of battle, but there arent many oppourtunities to shine since DnD typically revolves around encounters.

So break the habit! Go away for a while to scout by yourself (just like Belkar :smallbiggrin: ) Go more things on a daily basis!

(Assuming that you are able to survive that of course).