The Orville

[Renegade Paladin]

I'm kind of surprised we don't have a thread on this already. Seth MacFarlane is writing and starring in a live-action sci-fi drama/comedy called The Orville, which is a clear take on Star Trek with an hour long format and suspiciously familiar ship design aesthetics. It premieres on Fox (and will therefore probably meet the fate of Firefly) on Sunday. They've been playing their cards fairly close to the chest re: plot and scenes, but there are two trailers.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy9sKeCE8V0

For what it's worth, MacFarlane says he's trying to capture the old style aspirational sci-fi of early Trek, and that basically all the jokes in the first episode are in the trailers. I'm hopeful that this might actually be good.

[An Enemy Spy]

A full season of hour long episodes seems like a bad format for parody. There's only so many jokes you can tell and then you have to actually be a good sci-fi show.

[Millstone85]

I like the design of the spaceship and the uniforms. Well-freshened nostalgia there.

That's about it. What the trailer shows of the characters, the humor, and the plot, doesn't capture my interest.

[Aotrs Commander]

That... actually looks way better than the ACTUAL new Star Trek show. (I mean, there appears to be a starship battle of some sort - and i can tell what's actually going on), it appears to be an ensemble cast and the SFX look quite good.)

I might actually track that down if I can and try and see at least the first episode at some point (if/when it makes it to this side of the pond).

I would appreciate it if folk might provide a few (spoiler-free) thoughts on it after it shows over there.

[Friv]

A full season of hour long episodes seems like a bad format for parody. There's only so many jokes you can tell and then you have to actually be a good sci-fi show.

If it's a really earnest parody, you can get away with it, since you take a decent story and then sprinkle jokes on it. But yeah, I assumed it was going to be half-hour episodes.

Now I'm really curious. Hope for the best...

[t209]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f0/Flashmancover.jpg
Well, wish he actually made Star Trek version of this. Maybe Orville as a coward with fake reputation.
Or Rincewind for "mild" version.
Edit: Consider the quality of Family Guy, tendency to strawman, and such; I have a bad feeling about this. Maybe it would be Space!Flashman.

[Renegade Paladin]

A full season of hour long episodes seems like a bad format for parody. There's only so many jokes you can tell and then you have to actually be a good sci-fi show.

Fortunately for all concerned, it isn't being pitched as a parody, but as a drama/comedy in its own right. MacFarlane said that basically all the jokes in the first episode are in the trailers; it isn't supposed to be wall-to-wall slapstick.

Second trailer (here because only one video per post and I didn't want to double post):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMKECRnZe2U

[Dienekes]

I gained interest in this when I read about the concept, and then lost interest as soon as I heard written and starring MacFarlane. For whatever reason his humor and mine just don't match. I never liked Family Guy, American Dad, or The Cleveland Show. And after that I haven't bothered with anything he's done.

[Renegade Paladin]

I gained interest in this when I read about the concept, and then lost interest as soon as I heard written and starring MacFarlane. For whatever reason his humor and mine just don't match. I never liked Family Guy, American Dad, or The Cleveland Show. And after that I haven't bothered with anything he's done.
I suspect this will not be the same as his cartoon shows; the format doesn't at all lend itself to that sort of humor and I believe he's smart enough to know that. Jon Favreau certainly is even if MacFarlane isn't. A Million Ways to Die in the West might be a better model.

There's also the fact MacFarlane appeared on Enterprise. The dude's a hardcore Trekkie. I'd at least give it a shot.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That... actually looks way better than the ACTUAL new Star Trek show.

Yeah, but that's a bar so low an ant can hurdle it.

Hopefully, the premiere isn't going to get too boned by the NFL.

[kraftcheese]

I suspect this will not be the same as his cartoon shows; the format doesn't at all lend itself to that sort of humor and I believe he's smart enough to know that. Jon Favreau certainly is even if MacFarlane isn't. A Million Ways to Die in the West might be a better model.

There's also the fact MacFarlane appeared on Enterprise. The dude's a hardcore Trekkie. I'd at least give it a shot.
Ted and A Million Ways to Die in the West aren't particularly good omens for the comedy either, imo.

[Renegade Paladin]

Hopefully, the premiere isn't going to get too boned by the NFL.

If there's one thing I remember about Deep Space Nine being on after football back in the 90s, it's that the NFL cutting off the first fifteen minutes is practically a given. :smallsigh:

[An Enemy Spy]

If there's one thing I remember about Deep Space Nine being on after football back in the 90s, it's that the NFL cutting off the first fifteen minutes is practically a given. :smallsigh:

That's why NFL games often have some kind of throwaway programming after them. I've left the TV running after many a Seahawks game to find some show about pets or something on. Though on the West Coast at least the NFL Fox games are over long before 8:00.

[Rodin]

Ted and A Million Ways to Die in the West aren't particularly good omens for the comedy either, imo.

A Million Ways to Die in the West was what finally made me realize that MacFarlane has forgotten how to do comedy. The downturn in Family Guy was a bad sign, but there was always the possibility that he might have been reinvigorated moving onto something else (like Groening was with Futurama). Sadly, this was not the case.

If it hits and gets rave reviews, I might consider watching it. I doubt it will though. MacFarlane failing to be funny for at least the past five years is too long a down streak. He's in Eddie Murphy territory now.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, it looks like Fox is going to repeat the first episode on Tuesday. So hopefully one of those will be untrammeled.

[gooddragon1]

As in redenbacher's popcorn?

[An Enemy Spy]

As in redenbacher's popcorn?

No, Redenbacher is the guy who invented the airplane. You're thinking of Orville Jiffypop.

[Knaight]

I'm kind of surprised we don't have a thread on this already. Seth MacFarlane is writing and starring in a live-action sci-fi drama/comedy called The Orville, which is a clear take on Star Trek with an hour long format and suspiciously familiar ship design aesthetics. It premieres on Fox (and will therefore probably meet the fate of Firefly) on Sunday. They've been playing their cards fairly close to the chest re: plot and scenes, but there are two trailers.

...

For what it's worth, MacFarlane says he's trying to capture the old style aspirational sci-fi of early Trek, and that basically all the jokes in the first episode are in the trailers. I'm hopeful that this might actually be good.

Given that MacFarlane is involved here, I suspect this to be roughly comparable with the X Movie franchise.

[Blackhawk748]

Honestly, I may give this show a shot. I have no expectations so if it's good I'll be pleasantly surprised

[HasSIn]

I haven't seen the trailer yet, but considering MacFarlane is the star I have serious doubts about the quality of the show. He is an absolutely terrible actor. His voice acting is good, but when it comes to his facial expressions and normal acting he's really bad. He basically ruined every scene in A Million Ways to Die. It was really jarring to me. Admittedly, he might have got better at it, but I have my doubts.

[Delicious Taffy]

I keep seeing ads for this on TV (what little I even watch) and YouTube. It looked like a forgettable show the moment I laid eyes on it. Then I saw Seth MacFarlane's name on it (didn't recognise his face from anything) and am now actively against seeing even a single episode of the thing. Live-action space shows are hard enough for me to get into, without that face and voice attached. If it's semi-watchable, that's fine, but there's literally every other show in the genre available, so "probably forgettable" and "has MacFarlane in it" are all the reason I need to avoid it.

And that's the end of me "complaining" about a show I wasn't going to watch, wouldn't have liked anyway, and don't particularly care about the genre of.

[Friv]

Welp, the early reviews (http://www.metacritic.com/tv/the-orville) are pretty scathing.

I think the harshest is IndieWire (http://www.indiewire.com/2017/09/the-orville-review-seth-macfarlane-star-trek-rip-off-1201874080/), who literally titled their review "‘The Orville’ Review: Seth MacFarlane’s ‘Star Trek’ Rip-Off is Creatively, Morally, and Ethically Bankrupt."

Which is a little rougher than I expected, honestly. Wow.

[Giggling Ghast]

Honestly, I got a bad vibe off the trailer. Galaxy Quest did it better.

[Rodin]

Welp, the early reviews (http://www.metacritic.com/tv/the-orville) are pretty scathing.

I think the harshest is IndieWire (http://www.indiewire.com/2017/09/the-orville-review-seth-macfarlane-star-trek-rip-off-1201874080/), who literally titled their review "‘The Orville’ Review: Seth MacFarlane’s ‘Star Trek’ Rip-Off is Creatively, Morally, and Ethically Bankrupt."

Which is a little rougher than I expected, honestly. Wow.

So, it's basically Star Trek, written by a comedian who has forgotten how to be funny, trying to be both serious and funny at the same time, and failing to do either.

Sounds about right.

Also not surprised that the moralizing was hamfisted. Star Trek was never exactly subtle, but MacFarlane's rants on Family Guy (via the mouth of Brian typically) were often downright offensive even when I agreed with his basic premise.

[dps]

The idea of Seth McFarlane doing a parody of Star Trek doesn't appeal to me at all--for one thing, I've never really liked his humor. But if it's also supposed to work as a SF adventure, well, that's interesting. I'm not saying it'll be good, just that if it depended on McFarlane's joke writing, it wouldn't have a snowball's chance of working for me, but if there's more to it than that, it's not doomed to be bad (though my expectations are still low). Taking a genre show and adding humor but still making it enjoyable as a genre show was the formula for Maverick, after all, though off the top of my head, I can't come up with other examples that were successful both critically and ratings-wise.

[2D8HP]

If there's one thing I remember about Deep Space Nine being on after football back in the 90s, it's that the NFL cutting off the first fifteen minutes is practically a given. :smallsigh:


Also I hate NFL.

:wink:


Honestly, I got a bad vibe off the trailer. Galaxy Quest did it better.


By Grabthar's hammer, by the suns of Worvan, you shall be avenged!

Galaxy Quest did everything better than most everything.
.It really did
.

[Kitten Champion]

I think this is going to suffer from viewers being confused by its tone. The trailers all show a comedy, but the reviews and its creator's self-description have it aiming towards something more dramatic and straightforwardly Trek-like. So, those in it for Family Guy-type humour might find themselves bored while the Trek crowd could easily be ignoring it altogether because why would you expect more from a MacFarlane production?

Honestly, I think MacFarlane getting this together as part of his sincere affection for the Star Trek franchise is kind of great and I wish the people who owned actual Star Trek were that passionate, but after finally getting that dream off the ground I also think he should have then created some distance from it -- to not be swept up in living out his own fantasy.

[Bohandas]

Looks good so far

[Renegade Paladin]

I only got to catch the last two thirds of the premiere, but I found it enjoyable. MacFarlane's acting didn't seem jarring at all, and in any case it's set up as an ensemble cast; he isn't carrying the whole thing. It leaned a lot of some of the more common sci-fi tropes, but so does basically all sci-fi. If you don't like science fiction, you won't like this. If you don't like MacFarlane's comedy, it doesn't feel like his comedy, because it's primarily drama; the humor is character driven rather than joke driven.

[Berserk Mecha]

I thought the first episode was a resounding 'meh'. Not terrible, not great, just meh. Most of the funny stuff was in the trailers. And I thought the 'Happy Arbor Day' bit was pretty good. Most of it kind of fell flat, though. Also, hasn't the robot character who despises organic lifeforms been done to death? And were the Krill a reference to Idris Elba's character in Star Trek Beyond?

[Renegade Paladin]

The Krill bear a heavy resemblance to the Jem'Hadar.

And yeah, we knew most of the funny stuff was in the trailers. They said that right up front, weeks before the premiere.

And yeah, "Happy Arbor Day" was inspired. And no, Commander Grayson's alternative was not better. :smalltongue:

[Palanan]

I had fun with this. The first episode was like a pastry with whipped sugar filling: light, tasty, not much there, but somehow you’ve gone and eaten the whole thing.

I loved the visual plays on Star Trek iconography, most obviously the curved and stacked nacelles, but also the subtle nod to one of TNG’s foibles—the immense amounts of wasted space in the deck layout. The captain’s office took this and ran with it.

And of course, the robot named Isaac. Wham! goes the reference-hammer.

The one thing I didn’t like was the borderline crudity. References to balls, wood, etc. don’t improve the comedy or the drama; they’re not funny and they detract from the show’s attempts at serious moments.

Apart from that…I enjoyed it. Half the fun is watching Adrienne Palicki, who was fantastic in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., where she also played the better half of a constantly bickering marriage.

As for the various critics calling it terrible—well, did any of them actually watch the first season of TNG? O gawd, there was terribleness aplenty there…not least of which were the dread Ferengi, terrors of the spaceways, who turned out to be bat-faced goofballs.

So, Orville is certainly no soul-searing apotheosis of transcendent art. But it was decently funny, endearingly silly, and they blew their science as well as Trek ever did.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Two very good things with the pilot episode. First, the ships and space scenes were beautifully shot, as opposed to the more workmanlike stuff we've gotten from the other two Star* series lately. And two, they show very effectively how insanely dangerous it is to mess about with time acceleration tech.

Anyone else notice the small model of the Wright Flyer on the captain's desk?

[The New Bruceski]

I didn't expect to like this, and it's not a "must watch" for me, but I liked it more than I thought I would. I really like the relaxed Star Trek aesthetic, real people in a utopian world, and some good jokes came of that; but Seth MacFarlane's shtick is not knowing when he's reaching too far or digging a punchline too long, and that got in the way in quite a few bits. Still, some legitimate laughs. My favorite would just be that the engineering toolkit was a couple rolls of duct tape and a hot glue gun.

[Chen]

As for the various critics calling it terrible—well, did any of them actually watch the first season of TNG? O gawd, there was terribleness aplenty there…not least of which were the dread Ferengi, terrors of the spaceways, who turned out to be bat-faced goofballs.

The first season of a lot of sci fi shows seem to be like this. Somehow back in the day people accepted this and the shows continued and made some great episodes. Stargate SG-1 is in a similar boat to TNG in that regard (it went on for 10 seasons after its godawful season 1!). Nowadays though it seems that if the first season kinda sucks like this, you get cancelled right away. Unfortunate really.

[Kitten Champion]

The first season of a lot of sci fi shows seem to be like this. Somehow back in the day people accepted this and the shows continued and made some great episodes. Stargate SG-1 is in a similar boat to TNG in that regard (it went on for 10 seasons after its godawful season 1!). Nowadays though it seems that if the first season kinda sucks like this, you get cancelled right away. Unfortunate really.

It's not so much that people accepted it that the networks were happy to let these somewhat expensive genre shows run to a certain length to get their money back via syndication.

Besides, Stargate first season wasn't that bad, it had pretty terrible episodes in it certainly but the characters and dialogue was still pretty notable.

Anyways, I don't think critics should temper their criticism relative to the ignominy of TNG season one.

[Aotrs Commander]

It's not so much that people accepted it that the networks were happy to let these somewhat expensive genre shows run to a certain length to get their money back via syndication.

Besides, Stargate first season wasn't that bad, it had pretty terrible episodes in it certainly but the characters and dialogue was still pretty notable.

And those episodes that were pretty awful were pretty much only in the first few episodes. (That one with Carter and the not-Mongols being arguably the worse in the series and they got that out of their system in what, the third or forth episode of something?)



Mind you, I think part of the effect is the proliferation on media in the years since. Even in the mid-90s, there wasn't so much competition for your veiwing, so you were more inclined to watch less-than-stellar if the alternative was "nowt." (E.g. TNG in the (in the UK) late eighties/early nineties. Now, TV has to not only compete with itself and the even more channels, it also has to compete with Youtube and whatnot.

Heck, I VERY rarely watch any of the handful of shows I watch the time they air; it's usually far more conveniant to watch them on BBC iPlayer or catch-up. And I watch more Funny Internet Reviewers than I do actual telly.

[FreddyNoNose]

I didn't expect to like this, and it's not a "must watch" for me, but I liked it more than I thought I would. I really like the relaxed Star Trek aesthetic, real people in a utopian world, and some good jokes came of that; but Seth MacFarlane's shtick is not knowing when he's reaching too far or digging a punchline too long, and that got in the way in quite a few bits. Still, some legitimate laughs. My favorite would just be that the engineering toolkit was a couple rolls of duct tape and a hot glue gun.

I will watch it again.

[Bohandas]

Honestly, I got a bad vibe off the trailer. Galaxy Quest did it better.

No, Orville is better, Galaxy Quest was hopelrssly contrived

[Friv]

No, Orville is better, Galaxy Quest was hopelrssly contrived

Wait, what? Galaxy Quest is one of the greatest sci-fi comedies out there.

[Renegade Paladin]

Just caught the rest of the first episode on streaming. I don't know what the heck everyone's complaining about. Taken as a whole, the episode was WORLDS better than a lot of early Star Trek. It also isn't trying to be a comedy; it has a comic relief character in Gordon Malloy, but it isn't a sitcom IN SPAAAAACE by any stretch.

[Legato Endless]

Wait, what? Galaxy Quest is one of the greatest sci-fi comedies out there.

I am equally puzzled by 'hopeless'. How many comedies rely on hefty amounts of contrivance? Would half the genre be too conservative? Two thirds?

[Porthos]

I think the issue some reviewers have is two-fold:

A) It's fashionable to crap on Seth MacFarlane, so this had a bit of a tough road already.

B) They were expecting Galaxy Quest: The Series and instead got ST:TOS with Some Jokes.

Could be off, of course. But from what I understand it doesn't deserve the level of vitriol that was heaped on it.

Of course, Galaxy Quest had a lot more drama in it than it's given credit for, so that might be coloring things a bit too. Still, Orville was sold a bit as a parody and from what I understand it really isn't. Or if it is a parody, it's far closer to the playing-it-straight line than GQ did.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm watching it now, so thoughts as i do:


Wow, dat opening. Seriously, not what i was expecting. I rather liked the office seen, the humor is a tad weird but they all seem like real people.

I love the holodeck scene, wonderful reference to TNG. Also it feels like a program i would write. :smalltongue:

Ok, the shuttle scene was a tad forced, a tad, but those two do feel like they are playing actual old friends, which i rather like.

First impression of the crew. I like them, they all seem interesting. For whatever reason Lemarr stands out, probably because he acts like a dude punching a clock lol

Watching the Orville leave dock i realize that i rather like the design of the ship, it looks nice. The bridge is stupidly wide open but it looks good from the outside.

His 1st oficer is his Ex Wife. oooh damn.

I love the crew banter, it felt like an actual conversation i'd hear at work.

That office needs better soundproofing

I am loving Gordon and Lemarr, they feel like the two blue collar dudes in a room full of Managers.

Oh my god the Ex Wife jokes lol

I gotta say i like the Krill. They're an odd fusion of Romulans, Klingons and the Jem'Hadar.

2 words: Seat Belts lol


All it all the show feels ok. The reviews seem overly hysterical or just flat out wrong. Only a few jokes felt really off (the bathroom hallway joke was a big one) but all in all it felt like i was watching Star Trek Lower Deck the show.


I think the issue some reviewers have is two-fold:

A) It's fashionable to crap on Seth MacFarlane, so this had a bit of a tough road already.

B) They were expecting Galaxy Quest: The Series and instead got ST:TOS with Some Jokes.

Could be off, of course. But from what I understand it doesn't deserve the level of vitriol that was heaped on it.

Of course, Galaxy Quest had a lot more drama in it than it's given credit for, so that might be coloring things a bit too. Still, Orville was sold a bit as a parody and from what I understand it really isn't. Or if it is a parody, it's far closer to the playing-it-straight line than GQ did.

They are playing it rather straight. I guess the parody aspect of the whole thing is that they aren't being so grandiose, they're just a bunch of people doing a job.

[Knaight]

I think the issue some reviewers have is two-fold:

A) It's fashionable to crap on Seth MacFarlane, so this had a bit of a tough road already.

An alternate explanation here is that Seth MacFarlane has produced a great deal of garbage and is thus disliked. Sometimes people dislike things not because it's fashionable to do so, but because the things are bad.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, I come from the perspective of having not seen a lot of MacFarlane's work. I don't watch a lot of mainstream broadcast TV, have never watched Family Guy on a regular basis or American Dad at all, and haven't watched any of his movies. (Supposing A Million Ways to Die in the West to be a better model was an educated guess based on it being a longer form live action thing, not having actually seen it.) So I didn't come into this with a hate-on for his previous work, and I find this one pretty good.

[Porthos]

An alternate explanation here is that Seth MacFarlane has produced a great deal of garbage and is thus disliked. Sometimes people dislike things not because it's fashionable to do so, but because the things are bad.

This can be true, but...


Well, I come from the perspective of having not seen a lot of MacFarlane's work. I don't watch a lot of mainstream broadcast TV, have never watched Family Guy on a regular basis or American Dad at all, and haven't watched any of his movies. (Supposing A Million Ways to Die in the West to be a better model was an educated guess based on it being a longer form live action thing, not having actually seen it.) So I didn't come into this with a hate-on for his previous work, and I find this one pretty good.

... so too can this.

Remember, I didn't say it wasn't justified to crap on him. Just that the show had an uphill battle because for many a critic, whatever reservoir of good will MacFarlane had, it disappeared a long time ago.

That being said, I think there is a subtle shade of difference between justified and fashionable. There are plenty of people out there who put out mediocre work. Slightly sub-standard, even. But for whatever reason some become lighting rods more than others.

And I think MacFarlane is in the lightning rod category, myself. No matter how justified it may be.

(And I say this as a person who is blissfully unaware of most of his work)

========


They are playing it rather straight. I guess the parody aspect of the whole thing is that they aren't being so grandiose, they're just a bunch of people doing a job.

Would it be fair to call it a WorkCom in the tradition of Brooklyn Nine-Nine or Barney Miller then?

(No, I am NOT saying it is as good as them. Just citing a couple of examples)

[Blackhawk748]

Would it be fair to call it a WorkCom in the tradition of Brooklyn Nine-Nine or Barney Miller then?

(No, I am NOT saying it is as good as them. Just citing a couple of examples)

It might be, we'll see as time goes on, but as far as first impressions go it kinda seems that way. I mean, the first episode is literally just them doing a normal boring supply run and something goes sideways. On top of this they are on a fairly small and innocuous ship and none of them are famous (kinda) or distinguished people (well except the robot, but thats more cuz hes the only one in the Union). I think we have a ship of fairly Average Joes as far as starship crews go, and i think that may be why i liked it.

[LaZodiac]

The problem is that Galaxy Quest was a movie "about a generic Star Trek esque tv show" and NOT that actual show HAVING a movie.

Orville is doing Galaxy Quest without that layer of irony. It is doing "shlocky, kinda sexist, kinda jokey but not really" unironically, and that's where it fails as a comedy peace. The JOKE of Galaxy Quest its that the show was bad.

[Porthos]

The JOKE of Galaxy Quest its that the show was bad.

Really? :smallconfused: That's not the impression I got. Just the opposite, actually.

Sure, the Galaxy Quest 'TV show' was goofy, a little silly, and a little nonsensical at times.

...

Okay, a LOT nonsensical. :smalltongue:

But the takeaway I got from the film is that the TV show was ultimately inspirational. It was good. Not ironically good. Not "So Bad it's Good" good, but actually good. Warts and all it had charm and heart.

That's why Galaxy Quest is called an affectionate parody of ST (and all the other SF shows). It might pull a Decon/Recon switch, in the words of TV Tropes, but it does seem to side on the argument that these shows should be celebrated. If improved. :smallwink:

[Olinser]

I've noticed several people saying that they shouldn't be expecting a comedy from The Orville because they 'said it's not a comedy'.

A large portion of their prospective audience knows nothing about the show but possibly a trailer. Having all of their advertising about the show painting it as a comedy, and then not delivering a comedy, is not a good way to establish a core audience for a show.

This has happened too many times to count in movies. People expect a genre of movie based on advertising and trailers. When they go to the movie and that's not what was delivered, it won't matter if the movie was actually good or not - a good chunk of the audience didn't get what they expected going in, and the movie draw drops precipitously in just a couple weeks.

I fully expect the same thing to happen here. The people who will actually watch and sustain a semi-serious sci-fi show are not the audience that tuned in to watch Family Guy In Space.

[LaZodiac]

Really? :smallconfused: That's not the impression I got. Just the opposite, actually.

Sure, the Galaxy Quest 'TV show' was goofy, a little silly, and a little nonsensical at times.

...

Okay, a LOT nonsensical. :smalltongue:

But the takeaway I got from the film is that the TV show was ultimately inspirational. It was good. Not ironically good. Not "So Bad it's Good" good, but actually good. Warts and all it had charm and heart.

That's why Galaxy Quest is called an affectionate parody of ST (and all the other SF shows). It might pull a Decon/Recon switch, in the words of TV Tropes, but it does seem to side on the argument that these shows should be celebrated. If improved. :smallwink:

Inspirational doesn't mean good, and it can be more than one thing. Galaxy Quest (the show) was sexist and made basically without any real forethought to canon or establishing how things work, which is an inherent part of the joke considering Tim Allen's character is a bloviating sack of incompetence for the most part. He wants nothing more to get away from it and yet despite the flaws that are inherent to it, it's also one of the best things he's ever done. And that's WHY it has charm and heart, because despite it's flaws it is meant to be something earnest and pure, because it's not actually a real show, it's an inspiration to the aliens who saw it and were affected by it.

The Orville takes that idea, that idea of a sexist, "by the seat of their pants" canon show, and ignores the fact that it's meant to be a contrast with the behavior of the actors, and plays everything as straight as possible. Instead of it being a meta joke on the commentary of how sci fi shows tend to work, it's just an actual sci fi show with a sexist bent to it. It's an unwinking parody that intends to be taken serious.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Actually, now that you raise the sexist issue, I suddenly realized this show is far more balanced than most sci-fi. Three males (captain, navigator, helmsman), three females (security chief, first officer, doctor) and two in the 'other' category (asexual robot science officer and the second officer is from a monosexual species). Possibly three in that last, if the blobby yellow thing becomes more important.

Also, I think this show had more non-humanoid aliens than Star Trek would show in an entire production.

[t209]

So any reception to Star Trek: Discovery?
I mean if the review is that low of a bar for Discovery at same level of the Orville, then you might have same revulsion or liking to it.

[Chen]

I don't think Star Trek Discovery has aired yet.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The premiere is on CBS Sunday the 24th, the rest is locked behind a paywall with mandatory unskippable commercials. Discovery has pretty much no chance to compete with The Orville.

[Reddish Mage]

The premiere is on CBS Sunday the 24th, the rest is locked behind a paywall with mandatory unskippable commercials. Discovery has pretty much no chance to compete with The Orville.

I believe it premiers on Netflix a day early, and the rest of the series along with it, for the whole rest of the whole world, minus the US.

[BannedInSchool]

I found it...okay. I wouldn't recommended it right now, but it might have potential to be an enjoyably humorous show. My biggest annoyance was that accelerating time in a volume wouldn't work like that. :smalltongue:

[Renegade Paladin]

Inspirational doesn't mean good, and it can be more than one thing. Galaxy Quest (the show) was sexist and made basically without any real forethought to canon or establishing how things work, which is an inherent part of the joke considering Tim Allen's character is a bloviating sack of incompetence for the most part. He wants nothing more to get away from it and yet despite the flaws that are inherent to it, it's also one of the best things he's ever done. And that's WHY it has charm and heart, because despite it's flaws it is meant to be something earnest and pure, because it's not actually a real show, it's an inspiration to the aliens who saw it and were affected by it.

The Orville takes that idea, that idea of a sexist, "by the seat of their pants" canon show, and ignores the fact that it's meant to be a contrast with the behavior of the actors, and plays everything as straight as possible. Instead of it being a meta joke on the commentary of how sci fi shows tend to work, it's just an actual sci fi show with a sexist bent to it. It's an unwinking parody that intends to be taken serious.

...

Okay, I'll bite. Would you care to explain what, precisely, is sexist about the show as presented thus far?

[LaZodiac]

...

Okay, I'll bite. Would you care to explain what, precisely, is sexist about the show as presented thus far?

I'll admit it's second hand, but given who's making it I wouldn't doubt it. I can't remember the specifics because I'm tired from work, but some of the jokes are kinda sexist, and the outfits. Also the idea that the captain is clearly a bumbling buffoon and the lady second should be the actual captain. General stuff like that.

I should probably watch this to be 100% sure, but I've got a rough week of work and my time is a bit more precious than that.

[Blackhawk748]

I'll admit it's second hand, but given who's making it I wouldn't doubt it. I can't remember the specifics because I'm tired from work, but some of the jokes are kinda sexist, and the outfits. Also the idea that the captain is clearly a bumbling buffoon and the lady second should be the actual captain. General stuff like that.

I should probably watch this to be 100% sure, but I've got a rough week of work and my time is a bit more precious than that.

So let me get this straight: You havent even watched it, but you're calling it sexist?

[Renegade Paladin]

I'll admit it's second hand, but given who's making it I wouldn't doubt it. I can't remember the specifics because I'm tired from work, but some of the jokes are kinda sexist, and the outfits. Also the idea that the captain is clearly a bumbling buffoon and the lady second should be the actual captain. General stuff like that.

I should probably watch this to be 100% sure, but I've got a rough week of work and my time is a bit more precious than that.
Having watched it, I didn't note any sexist jokes (unless you consider the whole divorce plot thread inherently sexist for... some reason I can't fathom; it's a real stretch) and Captain Mercer really doesn't come off as a bumbling buffoon. Every one of the main characters except arguably the navigator (a man) contributed to their survival and success in a very real way, him included. "He has a gun, but we have something even better. Seat belts." *Slams space brakes* The episode was going out of its way to have Commander Grayson (the captain's ex) save the day so that he'd have a reason not to immediately accept her transfer off the ship, but it wasn't like he grossly dropped the ball on anything. It was her idea that ultimately won the day, but they never would have gotten to that point without the whole rest of the away team and bridge crew.

[Olinser]

So let me get this straight: You havent even watched it, but you're calling it sexist?

There's a trope for that (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ComplainingAboutShowsYouDontWatch)

[LaZodiac]

So let me get this straight: You havent even watched it, but you're calling it sexist?

I've heard it's sexist, yes. I'll look up the show later to see for myself. I'm just saying it wouldn't be surprising if it is. And really that whole divorce subplot sounds pretty bad (especially given it's probably where the jokes about her being a bitch comes from, from what I've seen).

But you're right, I shouldn't pass judgement until I've seen it for myself. I know from the trailer it looks like trash though, and my hopes aren't high. Every positive comment I've seen about it is from people starved for sci fi television that doesn't suck so anything even remotely there gets a pass.

[Ranxerox]

I think the issue some reviewers have is two-fold:

A) It's fashionable to crap on Seth MacFarlane, so this had a bit of a tough road already.

B) They were expecting Galaxy Quest: The Series and instead got ST:TOS with Some Jokes.

Could be off, of course. But from what I understand it doesn't deserve the level of vitriol that was heaped on it.



A third possibility. Usually TV critics are given multiple episodes to watch when asked to review a brand new series (the first four episodes seems to be how it is generally done). It is possible that the pilot episode is the best of the bunch and it goes down hill from there.

I hope that is not the case, and since most of the shows that I watch don't start up again until October, I will definitely watch the next couple of episodes. I'm just saying that the TV critics have probably seen more episodes than we have, and may know stuff we don't.

[Reddish Mage]

Having caught this late I've finally seen it. I think the jokes and overall humor are a bigger part than a lot of the negative reviews made it out.

I think a big problem is that the trailer spoils a lot of the best jokes, which would have worked a lot better seeing them in episode fresh.

That said, its definitely McFarlane humor. So the plot itself is serious enough, while a lot of random jokes happen as tangents as the story develops (family guy style).

Still I'm not sure if this show can work without the tone deciding on being more comedic or more dramatic (and perhaps a bit of both is in order, they make a good showing that the Orville crew are middling types on a middling adventure).


I've heard it's sexist, yes. I'll look up the show later to see for myself. I'm just saying it wouldn't be surprising if it is....

I don't recall costumes but there is gist for that mill: the way Malloy talks about "the bitch" of a first officer, and Grayson's entire personality is basically that of a clingy-ex-wife wrapped in more female stereotypes.

What really stuck out for me was the self-deprecating comment by the Alara, the young head of security, that she was fast-tracked to her position because she comes from a minority group. She says flatly she's the product of affirmative action when she has superpowers and is basically the ur-example of a security officer (sorry Worf).

The preview of the next episodes shows that the supposedly male alien lays eggs. So they aren't being very precise on the alien biology (he would be a hermaphrodite then) at least.

I don't see sexism as being high on the complaints for the show but the way it treats its (admittedly) diverse cast suggests that they are trying to be shallow and play to or play up a lot of stereotypes. That and its a Seth McFarlane production...

Actually that fact alone suggests that sexism should rank pretty high on the list...

[Renegade Paladin]

I've heard it's sexist, yes. I'll look up the show later to see for myself. I'm just saying it wouldn't be surprising if it is. And really that whole divorce subplot sounds pretty bad (especially given it's probably where the jokes about her being a bitch comes from, from what I've seen).

The opening scene is literally him walking in on her cheating on their marriage. Are you saying that wasn't grounds for a divorce decree or something? The show is only one episode in, but given the setup, so far it's been handled very well in my estimation.

What you refer to has one very specific source; the pilot (not the captain), and it is thoroughly established that he's a jerk in general and it isn't supposed to be sympathetic. So unless the premise is that all the characters must be perfect saints and if they aren't then how that fact is handled by the story doesn't matter, I don't see where the problem is.


What really stuck out for me was the self-deprecating comment by the Alara, the young head of security, that she was fast-tracked to her position because she comes from a minority group. She says flatly she's the product of affirmative action when she has superpowers and is basically the ur-example of a security officer (sorry Worf).
To be fair, there's much more to being a skilled security chief than personal prowess and super strength. We've seen that she, personally, kicks ass, and that's great. We haven't seen her direct security arrangements for the ship, be in command of anything, or do any part of her job that isn't her, personally, engaging in firefights and fisticuffs.

The preview of the next episodes shows that the supposedly male alien lays eggs. So they aren't being very precise on the alien biology (he would be a hermaphrodite then) at least.
I mean, we knew that from the first utterance of "Your entire species is male, isn't it?" :smalltongue:

[Chen]

I mean, we knew that from the first utterance of "Your entire species is male, isn't it?" :smalltongue:

Yeah there's no real way to distinguish male and female, biologically if the species only has one sex. The fact they called out the single sex as male makes no real sense to begin with. Granted I believe they said single gender. So perhaps the species is sexually dimorphic but they all simply identify as male. Realistically that's almost certainly not the case and just a standard conflating of sex and gender though.

[MikelaC1]

I saw episode1 and thought it was good. Not a "hunt for the missed episode on Netflix and kill myself if I don't find it" good, but a "set the PVR and watch it when I can" good. And having no experience with Seth McFarlane's work, I came in with no preconceptions or prejudices.

[Kitten Champion]

I saw it myself. It was pretty underwhelming.

It runs entirely on "anachronistic frat humour in Star Trek" and doesn't really build up to anything funny or develop a tone that works for space drama either. I was holding it to the standards of a Red Dwarf and it falls far short of that.

[thorgrim29]

I kind of liked it, and I'll probably keep watching it. It's a goofy take on star trek without being a parody of it... Feels a bit like Legends of Tomorrow in that it's not great but it brings enough to the table to be interesting (also, the Admiral is in Legends which is probably why that comparison came to mind). Plus I like Mcfarlane's brand of snarky humour as long as he stays a bit grounded and doesn't vanish up his rectum.

About the ex wife thing I think it wasn't handled terribly. She cheated on him and it almost wrecked his career because he was so distraught over the whole thing, I would expect him and his best friend to be a bit defensive about the whole thing. It didn't go overboard in the first episode and as long as it doesn't that's ok with me. Also the actress is pigeonholing herself as the badass ex wife after this and SHIELD and I think that's funny. Personally I hope it's going in a ''we're better as colleagues and friends'' thing rather than a ''we should go back together'' thing, time will tell.

And finally about the security chief I understand why the captain would be skeptical. She might be essentially a superhero but that doesn't make her a good officer... I guess that comes down to the tradition of only senior officers being important in Star Trek so she couldn't be say the security number 2 and go on missions because she kicks ass.

[Friv]

Yeah there's no real way to distinguish male and female, biologically if the species only has one sex. The fact they called out the single sex as male makes no real sense to begin with. Granted I believe they said single gender. So perhaps the species is sexually dimorphic but they all simply identify as male. Realistically that's almost certainly not the case and just a standard conflating of sex and gender though.

You could have a dual-gendered species that is usually male, but individual members sometimes become female during mating season in order to lay eggs. As a result, the species considers themselves 'male', while being 'female' is a temporary thing.

[2D8HP]

So let me get this straight: You havent even watched it, but you're calling it....


WORST EPISODE EVER!!!
(I may say if I ever watch it)



Also, I hate sports

:wink:

[Ranxerox]

Yeah there's no real way to distinguish male and female, biologically if the species only has one sex. The fact they called out the single sex as male makes no real sense to begin with. Granted I believe they said single gender. So perhaps the species is sexually dimorphic but they all simply identify as male. Realistically that's almost certainly not the case and just a standard conflating of sex and gender though.



You could have a dual-gendered species that is usually male, but individual members sometimes become female during mating season in order to lay eggs. As a result, the species considers themselves 'male', while being 'female' is a temporary thing.

This being science fiction there are other possibilities. For example, they could be a species that use to have females but has somehow lost them and now gets by through cloning or some other technological means. Another possibility is they exist in a symbiotic (or parasitic) relationship with another species that bears their young for them, but doesn't incorporate their genetic material and remains a separate species. So they would have females, just not ones of there own species.

[Pendulous]

I'm not a sci-fi fan. Not into Star Trek or any similar shows or movies. So I won't get the references or allusions or anything. I AM a McFarlane fan, but this is also the first time I've seen him in live-action stuff (haven't seen any of his movies).

Overall, it was ok. It felt like Star Trek that untucked its shirt, and wasn't afraid to laugh at itself. But, I mean, it's one episode. You can't establish much in that amount of time even with a 45 minute show. So it's worth a little bit more watch, if only to see the characters more fleshed out.

[Renegade Paladin]

I'm not a sci-fi fan. Not into Star Trek or any similar shows or movies. So I won't get the references or allusions or anything. I AM a McFarlane fan, but this is also the first time I've seen him in live-action stuff (haven't seen any of his movies).

Overall, it was ok. It felt like Star Trek that untucked its shirt, and wasn't afraid to laugh at itself. But, I mean, it's one episode. You can't establish much in that amount of time even with a 45 minute show. So it's worth a little bit more watch, if only to see the characters more fleshed out.
The first episode didn't have a lot of references or allusions, except visually with the resemblance of Planetary Union ships to those of the Federation of Star Trek. This really isn't being played as a satire on Star Trek, at least not so far.

[Reddish Mage]

Yeah there's no real way to distinguish male and female, biologically if the species only has one sex. The fact they called out the single sex as male makes no real sense to begin with. Granted I believe they said single gender. So perhaps the species is sexually dimorphic but they all simply identify as male. Realistically that's almost certainly not the case and just a standard conflating of sex and gender though.

You know if true the moclan are a species that is sexually dimorphic but pick a gender to identify by says volumes about gender-identity and sex.

Of course...


This being science fiction there are other possibilities. For example, they could be a species that use to have females but has somehow lost them and now gets by through cloning or...they exist in a symbiotic (or parasitic) relationship with another species that bears their young for them

So in the end I find the "your species is all male" comment to be more confusing than anything else (and the awkward dialogue that follows a play for cheap laughs).

So there's plenty in the Orville that is irrevant and shallow on sex, and race too but it really doesn't seem like a standout example of bigotry, especially for Seth McFarlane.

What's really disappointing is there is so much potential to really have fun with what you can do with these concepts in science fiction. So far all we get are cheap laughs.

[Scarlet Knight]

Maybe they're just seahorses in space ?

Also just used the Galaxy Quest "I've got one job..." quote yesterday.

[SuperPanda]

Finally got a chance to catch this show and I think I'd have to say its decidedly "okay" The parts of it which feel like a send up to Trek, and there is a lot of Trek like heart in it, are wonderful. Not groundbreaking or revolutionary - but exactly what I've been hungry for. Those parts are constantly being undercut by cheap one liners or annoying attempts at punchlines.

I had one solid laugh while watching the show When the XO joined in talking with the Krill about marriage trouble and the Captain got frustrated. It was pretty clear that she was using the chance to play for time rather than make an actual point - mostly because she'd been professional the whole time and he'd, well, not. The matter of fact way the Krill sided with her was a good follow up.

In response to the ex-wife thing being sexist... I'm not sure I understand the logic behind that. The two characters who disparage her have reasons for doing so that are easy to understand and even sympathize with but are also so completely immature that it is impossible for me to take them seriously. The ex-wife herself however is shown to be competent, responsible, and all together a good person. The closest to arguing that the show was sexist I could possibly get is that I can't think of any good reason why she wasn't a captain - but then the end of the episode answered that question.

Its okay. I feel like the actors are doing fine but the directors and writers can't seem to agree on what type of show they are writing. The scenes written for comedy seem to be directed too dramatically and the scenes written for drama seem to be directed too comedically. Most of the comedy just fails. The one part that worked arose organically from the situation they were in - pretty much all of the other jokes seemed just forced into the scenes.

I'll catch a few more episodes but this isn't on my "must watch" list.

[Foeofthelance]

Saw it and was pleasantly surprised to find out it wasn't just Family Guy/American Dad in SPAAACE. It wasn't amazing television and didn't really pack any good lines or spectacular scenes. Biggest issue, I think is that the show really wants to be 45 minutes rather than an hour. There's too much to really pack into thirty minutes, but at the same time there were several scenes, such as when the two navigators met, where things just sort of dragged out a little too long. I think McFarlane has gotten so used to writing for a half hour skit comedy that getting an actual plot to flow is a rusty skill for him. Still, there's some promise there so I'll probably watch the next couple episodes, see if it sorts out from the usual first episode jitters or if gets stuck in mediocrity.

[Dragonus45]

I've heard it's sexist, yes. I'll look up the show later to see for myself. I'm just saying it wouldn't be surprising if it is. And really that whole divorce subplot sounds pretty bad (especially given it's probably where the jokes about her being a bitch comes from, from what I've seen).


Seems like a pretty harsh opinion to have for someone who hasn't watched the show yet

[Knaight]

Seems like a pretty harsh opinion to have for someone who hasn't watched the show yet

The opinion pretty much boiled down to "I'm not judging the show before watching it, but it wouldn't be surprising if it resembled the rest of the works by the same creator". That's not particularly harsh; if anything it's pretty standard. People's styles tend to show through in a lot of their works, and that includes the bad parts.

[BannedInSchool]

Second episode was...okay. Some dumb bits or ones that went on too long. Some bits I actually thought were funny. The comedy bits give the characters some room to just be without serving the plot.

And as soon as they woke up in their apartment I thought,
"Haha, you're in a zoo." But then I'd think people familiar with Trek were expected to get it right away anyway.

[Renegade Paladin]

The only bit I found dumb was right at the beginning, and the reason for it became abundantly clear shortly thereafter.

[Starbuck_II]

Really, I find that Star Trek Discovery has a lot of work if they want to outdo Orville.

It has good set/ship design.

[Kid Jake]

I haven't gotten into the second episode yet, but I was pleasantly surprised by the first. I'm not really a fan of Seth Macfarlane, but it gave me a few chuckles (I laughed way harder than I should have at the navigator's only concern being his 'soda on the bridge' policy) and the designs were pretty neat. If nothing else, some of the background characters give me hope that future sci-fi series may end up dropping the 'human but with....like a mole or something' style of alien design altogether one day.

[Fishybugs]

Seems like a pretty harsh opinion to have for someone who hasn't watched the show yet

You've...you've been on the internet before, right? That's pretty much 70% of reviews.

"I hate it so much that I'm never going to watch it!!!!!11!!!" :smallconfused:

That being said, I'm not a MacFarlane fan, but I am a lifelong sci-fi fan. I find the show amusing, and hope it finds its feet. People don't realize how hard it is to get a show green-lit at a studio and get things going. The first entire seasons of shows like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Supernatural, Parks and Recreation were awful, but since they were given time to mature, they were great(ish) shows.

Judging a series off one one to two episodes is asinine, but again...it's the internet. Don't listen to other people's opinions. Judge for yourself, and don't feel bad if you like something nobody else does.

[Mechalich]

Having seen the first two episodes, my reaction to The Orville is mostly puzzlement. It seems to be Star Trek as lowbrow comedy, played straight, which is kind of bizarre overall. Episode two, in particular, has a story arc that is functionally identical to one that could have (and frankly probably did, by memory of the Trek canon is a little fuzzy) appeared in any mainstream Trek series. There are jokes, and the characters function much more sitcom-style than those in a traditional science fiction drama - which results in them acting both more and less like real people - but there's clearly going to be actual missions and stuff.

It's not bad, just kind of puzzling, and I do hope that the shows finds a groove to meld its influences, since there does seem to be the seed of something there.

[Reddish Mage]

So episode three happened. Its oddly to me they are moving in the direction of more straight (no pun intended, no relation to the subject matter of the episode) rather than more humor.

The humor that appears here seemed less appealing then before The blob showing what's supposed to be a **** to the doctor seemed in poor taste.

Still things like the comment about how free the Moclans are with "handing out *****," seems like they got slipped-in rather than getting the proper set up and delivery.

Also, I found the TNG episode about the genderless race very memorable. This tries to be a low brow take on the subject, but all it feels is a bit off.

Also, shouldn't there be a subplot or two going on to get tied in?

[Renegade Paladin]

So episode three happened. Its oddly to me they are moving in the direction of more straight (no pun intended, no relation to the subject matter of the episode) rather than more humor.

The humor that appears here seemed less appealing then before The blob showing what's supposed to be a **** to the doctor seemed in poor taste.

Still things like the comment about how free the Moclans are with "handing out *****," seems like they got slipped-in rather than getting the proper set up and delivery.
Think about it. Considering the subject matter, would you want Seth MacFarlane's typical humor applied to the main plot of the episode? They went absolutely the right direction for this one.


Also, I found the TNG episode about the genderless race very memorable. This tries to be a low brow take on the subject, but all it feels is a bit off.

Also, shouldn't there be a subplot or two going on to get tied in?
Well, there's the obvious subplot of Captain Mercer and Commander Grayson reconciling despite their best efforts to blow up what's left of their relationship, though that's conveyed more in body language than dialogue in this episode. Apart from that, again, consider the sensitivity of the subject. There's time for subplots on an episode with a less thorny story thread.

[Algeh]

It's starting to feel feel like the tone and feel they're going for is "Star Trek: TNG but with a ship full of people who don't take themselves as seriously as those stuffy Enterprise people do".

I liked TNG when it was on, and it'd be nice to have a space show that wasn't trying to do a big complicated arc with deep secrets that the writers will get around to deciding on the answers to if they get renewed again, but I'm not quite sure The Orville has figured out where to go with this, either. I kind of worry it'll turn into "Star Trek: TNG Season 8, but with a token rude joke in the teaser each week". (Which I suspect I would still watch, but...)

I'm hoping it settles into something with kind of the relationship shows like Due South or Castle had to "regular" cop shows. (Not that those shows were particularly similar to each other, but they each were different than a typical cop show in their own way and didn't take the genre as a completely serious thing.) (I'd find it particularly amusing if they went the full Due South route and eventually threw away all attempts to make sense in favor of basing entire episodes around Stan Rogers songs, but that's a pretty specific thing to want and it's probably just me and a few of my closest friends rooting for that.)

[Renegade Paladin]

On the contrary, after this week's episode it feels like they're actually going for a long arc in a way that TNG never did. Recall all the setup for this, starting from Bortus' very first introduction: The show has hammered the fact that the rest of the Union doesn't know all that much about Moclan society or biology in all the episodes so far and this week it bit them in the behind. I've seen people hold this up as an example of why Mercer shouldn't be in command because surely they teach this at the Academy, but nobody else on the bridge crew knew Moclans lay eggs either, nor that they treated female births the way they do, even to the point of being willing to casually threaten the life of a Union captain on his very own ship over it.

In TNG, Picard would have given a speech and convinced them to abandon their centuries-old cultural mores and the whole thing would be wrapped up by the end of the episode. This wasn't, and what's more they went to a good amount of trouble to emphasize that the Moclans were willing to fire on a ship of the Planetary Union of which they are a member over said cultural mores. I will be shocked if it doesn't come up again in some way.

Personally, I'm wondering how much of that "once every 75 years" statistic is true; that we came up with three Moclans of the, like, seven named/speaking ones confirmed born female (Klyden, the old woman they found in the mountains, and of course the baby), it's possible that they're actually a sexually dimorphic species and simply regularly do sex changes on female infants. Considering Klyden didn't know until he was examined by a Union doctor, we don't know what the actual rate is, considering they have an extreme taboo against discussing the subject. You can make a fairly strong case for supposing that they might actually be naturally multi-gendered and have simply been surgically "correcting" this for generations. Either way, it's obviously extremely screwed up.

[Mando Knight]

On the contrary, after this week's episode it feels like they're actually going for a long arc in a way that TNG never did. Recall all the setup for this, starting from Bortus' very first introduction: The show has hammered the fact that the rest of the Union doesn't know all that much about Moclan society or biology in all the episodes so far and this week it bit them in the behind. I've seen people hold this up as an example of why Mercer shouldn't be in command because surely they teach this at the Academy, but nobody else on the bridge crew knew Moclans lay eggs either, nor that they treated female births the way they do, even to the point of being willing to casually threaten the life of a Union captain on his very own ship over it.

In TNG, Picard would have given a speech and convinced them to abandon their centuries-old cultural mores and the whole thing would be wrapped up by the end of the episode. This wasn't, and what's more they went to a good amount of trouble to emphasize that the Moclans were willing to fire on a ship of the Planetary Union of which they are a member over said cultural mores. I will be shocked if it doesn't come up again in some way.

There actually was an episode of TNG (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/The_Outcast_(episode)) about encountering a race of humanoids with a culture aggressively dedicated to preserving their androgyny. Picard's "Defend individuality or take a hardline pro-Prime Directive stance" coin landed Prime Directive side up that episode.

[Renegade Paladin]

There actually was an episode of TNG (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/The_Outcast_(episode)) about encountering a race of humanoids with a culture aggressively dedicated to preserving their androgyny. Picard's "Defend individuality or take a hardline pro-Prime Directive stance" coin landed Prime Directive side up that episode.

I remember it. So far as I know, the J'naii weren't members of the Federation. And the Prime Directive shouldn't have applied either way, since the Directive is to not interfere with pre-Warp drive societies, which the J'naii apparently were not. (If they were they were already breaking the Prime Directive every day and twice on Sundays just having some on the ship.)

[Starbuck_II]

There actually was an episode of TNG (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/The_Outcast_(episode)) about encountering a race of humanoids with a culture aggressively dedicated to preserving their androgyny. Picard's "Defend individuality or take a hardline pro-Prime Directive stance" coin landed Prime Directive side up that episode.

I prefer Purple/Green argument on Babylon 5 if we are going withculture aggressively dedicated to preserving their beliefs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcBTOU7RvbU

[SuperPanda]

I found the issue strange in that both sides were so totally hamfisted that the whole thing turned out muddled.

So the not-klingons think being female is a birth defect which they correct at birth. Their correction somehow so completely cured the innate genetic weaknesses of the defect to the point where those who have undergone it never know. They still discriminate against people if they know they had the procedure despite being shown no differences at all. These views are so engrained that the race will risk war with a major ally to avoid chsllengeign them, unless they watch a catchy children's movie - then they were clearly wrong.

To make it worse, the species is set up to have no need of multiple genders - making the whole thing even weirder.

The other side is no better - unable to see past their own hangups, they never offer any real justification for why they are so opposed to it. The only character to grapple with the issue is Bortas who once again feels like a character from a much better show who would up here l by accident (complaint about Rudolph not withstanding).

The show is frustrating in that there is great promise but instead of actually dealing with genuine emotional conflicts that they bring up - they play those moments for laughs and then ignore the implications of it.


As such this doesn't feel like Star Trek where everyone takes themselves less seriously. To me it feels like Star Trek but everyone is immature, incompetent, and jerk, and idiot, or all of the above. It breaks my immersion to have the plot turn completely on the idea that Bortas got that engrossed in the story of Rudolph. Epsiode 2 did the same thing with "your a Jerk sir" okay I'll change my mind to make you like me "now you are smart and we will reward you" ...

[Olinser]

I found the issue strange in that both sides were so totally hamfisted that the whole thing turned out muddled.

So the not-klingons think being female is a birth defect which they correct at birth. Their correction somehow so completely cured the innate genetic weaknesses of the defect to the point where those who have undergone it never know. They still discriminate against people if they know they had the procedure despite being shown no differences at all. These views are so engrained that the race will risk war with a major ally to avoid chsllengeign them, unless they watch a catchy children's movie - then they were clearly wrong.

To make it worse, the species is set up to have no need of multiple genders - making the whole thing even weirder.

The other side is no better - unable to see past their own hangups, they never offer any real justification for why they are so opposed to it. The only character to grapple with the issue is Bortas who once again feels like a character from a much better show who would up here l by accident (complaint about Rudolph not withstanding).

The show is frustrating in that there is great promise but instead of actually dealing with genuine emotional conflicts that they bring up - they play those moments for laughs and then ignore the implications of it.


As such this doesn't feel like Star Trek where everyone takes themselves less seriously. To me it feels like Star Trek but everyone is immature, incompetent, and jerk, and idiot, or all of the above. It breaks my immersion to have the plot turn completely on the idea that Bortas got that engrossed in the story of Rudolph. Epsiode 2 did the same thing with "your a Jerk sir" okay I'll change my mind to make you like me "now you are smart and we will reward you" ...

Yes its a ludicrously ham-handed 'message' about transgenderism that doesn't even make sense in context, much less as a moral message. Pretty typical for McFarlane.

I mean Seth McFarlane is generally funny and entertaining but Family Guy has always been at its worst when its trying to preach.

[Renegade Paladin]

The other side is no better - unable to see past their own hangups, they never offer any real justification for why they are so opposed to it.
... How about basic, self-evident sapient rights? The Moclan argument falls apart at denying it should be the decision of the child.

[Chen]

... How about basic, self-evident sapient rights? The Moclan argument falls apart at denying it should be the decision of the child.

Considering how rare it is, I don't even know why they would refer to it as two separate sexes rather than some other named condition. One born every 75 years over a whole spacefaring races' population is INSANELY low. Unless theres some explanation of them originally having two sexes and it somehow changed to one after all the sex selection that went on, something that rare would just be treated exactly as a birth defect to be corrected.

[BannedInSchool]

Considering how rare it is, I don't even know why they would refer to it as two separate sexes rather than some other named condition. One born every 75 years over a whole spacefaring races' population is INSANELY low. Unless theres some explanation of them originally having two sexes and it somehow changed to one after all the sex selection that went on, something that rare would just be treated exactly as a birth defect to be corrected.

I was assuming that the one every 75 years was a lie to support the practice. Families might be suspicious if half their children were female, but they would be too ashamed to say anything to anyone about it. Doctors would know the real rate. It is a weak link that no doctors would say anything about it and it would remain a secret, but given the society, eh, I'll allow that as a great medical secret. And I'm not going to concern myself with that much because I don't think the show did. However, they maybe could go there in the future.

Thinking of the mentioned TNG episode, though, maybe the mixing of the metaphors in the Orville episode is a little bit of a feature rather than a bug. The TNG episode doing basically a reversal of what was "normal" with regards to sexuality had a cringey implication in the conclusion of "what a tragedy it is for her to not be allowed to be binary heterosexual like us and enjoy Riker's penis" haunting the message. The Orville taking some from column A and some from column B avoids falling into that trap exactly.

[SuperPanda]

Apart from the Doctor they don't really make that case. Also the show goes out of its way to show that the operation is so safe and successful that a person can go their whole life without knowing they had it.

Without going too far into real world, the show brings up circumcision and actually lets that be a smart comparison. Negligible benefit, measurable harm that many are unaware of, outside of specific religions exists as a norm only because it is currently a norm, and the one who undergoes it almost never has a choice in the matter.

The show goes out of its way to establish the procedure having 0 physical side effects. We get a sample of 2 - one who had it as is emphatic that this was good and one who did not and is emphatic that this is good. We are shown no downsides to having it in the stupidly arbitrary society of the Moklans. We are shown serious downsides to not having it in the stupidly arbitrary society. The reason for it existing is naked sexism and the Orville crew is unable to address that issue in anything like a smart way. They exclusively rely on anecdotes from obvious outliers - which actually reinforces the Moklan argument because it suggests that there is no good data which shows them wrong about the differences "on average."

I don't disagree that there are good reasons the Moklans are in the wrong here - it's just that the show went out of its way to discredit them for this hypothetical. It felt more like a deconstruction of Federation moralism in TNG while also feeling like a justification for it.

In the end we are left with "Moklans are wrong because they're culture is icky and Union is right because they are the heroes." There are smart things to say but the show carefully avoided saying them.

[Renegade Paladin]

Considering how rare it is, I don't even know why they would refer to it as two separate sexes rather than some other named condition. One born every 75 years over a whole spacefaring races' population is INSANELY low. Unless theres some explanation of them originally having two sexes and it somehow changed to one after all the sex selection that went on, something that rare would just be treated exactly as a birth defect to be corrected.
I put this in spoiler tags a couple of days ago, but I seriously doubt it's actually that rare. The show tells us that's what the Moclans say, but it shows us that the wider Planetary Union doesn't actually know that much about Moclan society or biology (one can only assume intentionally on the part of the Moclans), and also shows us about half the named/speaking Moclan characters on the show that we know anything about to have been born female. It isn't that difficult to infer that the Moclans are in fact naturally sexually dimorphic and simply hide the fact for ingrained cultural reasons.

[Chen]

I put this in spoiler tags a couple of days ago, but I seriously doubt it's actually that rare. The show tells us that's what the Moclans say, but it shows us that the wider Planetary Union doesn't actually know that much about Moclan society or biology (one can only assume intentionally on the part of the Moclans), and also shows us about half the named/speaking Moclan characters on the show that we know anything about to have been born female. It isn't that difficult to infer that the Moclans are in fact naturally sexually dimorphic and simply hide the fact for ingrained cultural reasons.

I mean that's possible but you'd think this would have been a good episode to dig at that with. Realistically I'm pretty sure the writers just didn't think through the logical consequences of the number they spouted out.

I also found the court scene absolutely ridiculous. How is showing that a different race's males/females had different aptitudes or lack thereof, provide ANY proof to the Moclans? She should have been laughed out of the court. I mean in the end if kinda worked since Moclan females were clearly not completely different and inferior to Moclan males, but there's no inherent reason that was the case.

[Tyndmyr]

... How about basic, self-evident sapient rights? The Moclan argument falls apart at denying it should be the decision of the child.

They answer that by saying that waiting until the child is able to decide for themselves makes it too late. In short, regardless of decision, you are deciding for the child via action or inaction.


Considering how rare it is, I don't even know why they would refer to it as two separate sexes rather than some other named condition. One born every 75 years over a whole spacefaring races' population is INSANELY low. Unless theres some explanation of them originally having two sexes and it somehow changed to one after all the sex selection that went on, something that rare would just be treated exactly as a birth defect to be corrected.

As shown, it does not actually seem to be that low. We have three confirmed instances, and at least two are by happenstance(parent and child). They *believe* it to be that low, but they clearly believe a long of gender related stuff that is...inaccurate. This may be another such case.

I do agree that some of the arguments made were seriously weak. Extrapolating from another species entirely? Ehhhh. I viewed that as mostly a deconstruction of the "heroic speech changes everything" trope. The heroes *are* working mostly from the standpoint of a gut level reaction, and everyone has a remarkable amount of difficulty in getting the other entrenched side to swap over to their view which is....honestly pretty realistic. People make dumb arguments in real life, and make emotional reactions, and generally very few people are swept up en masse by a singular speech from the opposition.

[Chen]

As shown, it does not actually seem to be that low. We have three confirmed instances, and at least two are by happenstance(parent and child). They *believe* it to be that low, but they clearly believe a long of gender related stuff that is...inaccurate. This may be another such case.

Now that I think of it its necessarily untrue, unless Moclans have incredibly long lifespans. If the one in 75 years was correct, the father here would need to be at least 75 and the writer at least 150.


I do agree that some of the arguments made were seriously weak. Extrapolating from another species entirely? Ehhhh. I viewed that as mostly a deconstruction of the "heroic speech changes everything" trope. The heroes *are* working mostly from the standpoint of a gut level reaction, and everyone has a remarkable amount of difficulty in getting the other entrenched side to swap over to their view which is....honestly pretty realistic. People make dumb arguments in real life, and make emotional reactions, and generally very few people are swept up en masse by a singular speech from the opposition.

I'm at least glad they didn't change their minds after the ridiculous "trial". It would have felt much worse if those arguments actually convinced them. I wonder if it was just a throwaway episode or if they'll delve deeper into things here. Presumably it'll be something if they manage to get more than one season of the show.

[thorgrim29]

The whole trial felt like they were doing a parody of bad feminist arguments, which is kind of a shame because there was a potentially interesting thing here. For starters they are clearly not a single sex species, or at least they haven't always been. Did that happen naturally or was there a great big purge of female moklans centuries ago? Because sometimes people are born with monkey tails or things like that as a evolutionary throwback, it's called atavism. If we're talking about something like that the discovery of one or two people who didn't have the tails removed at birth who ended up having a meaningful life and even use them to their advantage would not make the tails anything else than a birth defect and the crew is wrong and applying the standards of their species to a different one. On the other hand if the whole race had a deep dark secret of discovering they could reproduce without females (also, by which definition is a creature that lays an egg not a female?) and killing all of them that's something else entirely.

[Chen]

It could have been an interesting discussion of genetic engineering if they had revealed that was the way this was done. We have a lot of series which show the hazards of genetic engineering but its rare that we have ones that show the benefits. The only sci fi like that I can think of is the Culture novels where even very invasive genetic engineering is commonplace. The Eugenics wars of Star Trek only occurred because they dictated that the Augments also became aggressive and egotistical. Those aren't inherent characteristics that necessarily follow from genetic engineering.

[BannedInSchool]

The show may have cut it, or may have not thought of it (don't want to give them too much credit), but the different species problem isn't one in a way. If you want to find an individual contemptible for the genetic accident of their birth, does it make a difference if it's sex or species? What are they going to argue? "That doesn't count. She's only stronger because she was born that way. That means nothing!". :smalltongue:

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, what argument was Commander Grayson supposed to make apart from the one she did? The Moclans were clearly not going to accept the basic sapient rights argument; it had already been summarily dismissed. Challenging their conceptions was the only route to take at that point.

[Pex]

Finally got to see it. I like the informal speaking of the crew, a nice change from Star Trek/Babylon 5, but Lieutenant Malloy is starting to get on my nerves the informality can become a nuisance. I don't mind the humor, but sometimes I feel like they're trying too hard. When I feel that it's Malloy who's doing the talking. I'm wanting him off the screen as soon as he appears. Mr. Slime (Yaphit?) is the same way, but at least he's one a one joke shtick then he's gone for the rest of the show.

Obligatory: Took the third episode for a male and female crewmember to spar with each other and of course the female won to prove a point. :smallwink:

[Saph]

Haven't watched the show yet, but I found this kind of interesting:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKlOu8bXkAYXEEY.jpg
That's quite a gap, for both of them.

[Starbuck_II]

Weird, those critic ratings.

I haven't seen second Enterprise episode because it is behind a pay screen/online, but Orville was much better overall so far.

Maybe that hidden episode is very very amazing, but I can't see how.

I mean, they (well, the number 1) are so unprofessional in Discovery:

She knocks out one, she punches another, she backtalks her commander, etc. Number 1 is not cut out for it. Her behavior towards the captain—lying, physical assault and usurpation of command is a way not allowed usually.

[Rogar Demonblud]

As I understand it, the second episode, among other things, involves the Feds desecrating the dead, the XO coming up with a plan to capture the head Klingon, then just murderizing him (but deliberately waiting until he kills Michelle Yeoh first).

The real kicker? The first two episodes have nothing to do with the series. They're just a TV movie in the same setting.

[Olinser]

Weird, those critic ratings.

I haven't seen second Enterprise episode because it is behind a pay screen/online, but Orville was much better overall so far.

Maybe that hidden episode is very very amazing, but I can't see how.

I mean, they (well, the number 1) are so unprofessional in Discovery:

She knocks out one, she punches another, she backtalks her commander, etc. Number 1 is not cut out for it. Her behavior towards the captain—lying, physical assault and usurpation of command is a way not allowed usually.


Not just 'unprofessional' and 'not allowed'. In any world that made sense she would have been court martialed and thrown in the brig, probably for years. She DEFINITELY wouldn't have been allowed to just quietly transfer to another ship. But no. No consequences exist for the Chosen Ones!!! I guarantee they'll still make her a captain in a year or so.

Remember this is the same Star Trek that included a Deep Space Nine episode where Worf chose to safe his wife's life over completing the mission and Sisko told him it would mean he would never be offered starship command because of it.

Discovery's little golden girl effectively tries to stage a mutiny for far, FAR more petty reasons and by the end of the episode has zero consequences she has to worry about.

[Chen]

Not just 'unprofessional' and 'not allowed'. In any world that made sense she would have been court martialed and thrown in the brig, probably for years. She DEFINITELY wouldn't have been allowed to just quietly transfer to another ship. But no. No consequences exist for the Chosen Ones!!! I guarantee they'll still make her a captain in a year or so.

Remember this is the same Star Trek that included a Deep Space Nine episode where Worf chose to safe his wife's life over completing the mission and Sisko told him it would mean he would never be offered starship command because of it.

Discovery's little golden girl effectively tries to stage a mutiny for far, FAR more petty reasons and by the end of the episode has zero consequences she has to worry about.

No consequences? Did you see the end of episode 2? The punishment actually seems MORE severe than I'd expect for the Federation.

[Maelstrom]

Discovery's little golden girl effectively tries to stage a mutiny for far, FAR more petty reasons and by the end of the episode has zero consequences she has to worry about.

Say Waaa???

Life imprisonment is *zero* consequences?? That's basically *the worst punishment* the federation would hand out!

[Rogar Demonblud]

Say Waaa???

Life imprisonment is *zero* consequences?? That's basically *the worst punishment* the federation would hand out!

Since we know her punishment is waived immediately so she can be assigned to the Discovery as its XO, yes, she has no consequences.

[Renegade Paladin]

Since we know her punishment is waived immediately so she can be assigned to the Discovery as its XO, yes, she has no consequences.
... That's ridiculous. And people have been saying Mercer's conduct breaks suspension of disbelief on The Orville (to bring this back around to topic). :smallsigh:

[Olinser]

Say Waaa???

Life imprisonment is *zero* consequences?? That's basically *the worst punishment* the federation would hand out!

You must be joking.

Yeah. Life imprisonment! Never mind, no need to actually do that. Now go be the 2nd in command of a starship and we'll just forget about it.

Seriously i wouldn't trust her peeling potatoes in the kitchen, much less as an XO.

[JadedDM]

I have to assume that Olinser was equally outraged when Kirk stole the Enterprise and then blew it up, and instead of a court martial, he was made captain of a new, better ship. :smallcool:

[Olinser]

I have to assume that Olinser was equally outraged when Kirk stole the Enterprise and then blew it up, and instead of a court martial, he was made captain of a new, better ship. :smallcool:

Not as much, but it was also pretty stupid then, as well.

First, the ship they stole was actually going to be decommissioned (i.e. scrapped), and they explicitly said they were going to be court-martialed for stealing the ship. They only got out of it because of the next stupid Save The Whales movie and them saving Earth. Kirk faced 'consequences', in that he was demoted back to Captain and given command of a ship, which is what he wanted anyway. And apparently the ship they gave him was a piece of crap, as we found out in the next movie.

And I said it was a stupid resolution to the plot when it happened, almost all of movie Trek after Wrath of Khan is REALLY bad.

At least with Kirk, not once does he attempt to tell Starfleet that he shouldn't be punished for what he did, he knew the consequences and was 100% prepared to face them because he thought it was worth it to save his friend (YMMV on whether he was right). But of course the crew wanted more movies so they DXMed their way out of it so they could make more movies.

Discovery, on the other hand, she has NO justifiable reason for her actions that passes even a basic logic test (if she is incapable of dealing rationally with Klingons that's even a further mark against her being anywhere near command), and I don't think even once actually admits it was wrong.

At the end of the day, Kirk stole a scrapheap ship so he could rescue his friend, knew what he was doing was wrong, and was prepared to face the consequences. Burnham staged a mutiny and attempted to fire on the ship of a foreign power - somehow ludicrously believing that firing first on Klingons was going to STOP a war?!?!? If she'd actually succeeded in firing first T'Kuvma would have instantly destroyed them and used their attack on him as legitimate justification to start attacking the Federation. When Burnham was being sentenced she gave no indication that she ever thought what she did was wrong, and in fact makes a speech about how she still thought what she did was right.

[JadedDM]

First, the ship they stole was actually going to be decommissioned (i.e. scrapped)
So Kirk stealing Federation property and then destroying it isn't as big a deal, because it was going to be destroyed anyway?

In that case, Burnham's actions aren't that big a deal, because the Klingons wanted to start a war anyway. A war was going to happen regardless of whether they fired first or not.

I don't see any difference here. It's the exact same logic.


When Burnham was being sentenced she gave no indication that she ever thought what she did was wrong,
So why did she plead guilty on all counts?

[Olinser]

So Kirk stealing Federation property and then destroying it isn't as big a deal, because it was going to be destroyed anyway?

In that case, Burnham's actions aren't that big a deal, because the Klingons wanted to start a war anyway. A war was going to happen regardless of whether they fired first or not.

I don't see any difference here. It's the exact same logic.


So why did she plead guilty on all counts?

No, its still a big deal, but Kirk at least had somewhat logical reasons. The movie SHOULD have ended with him being offered the option of court-martial or 'retiring' to spare Starfleet from having to publicly court-martial one of their most famous officers. Then DS9 should have done a time travel episode that established that in retirement Kirk and Spock used a pen name and secretly co-wrote Vulcan Love Slave.

But as I said, they had basically written themselves into a corner and wanted to do more TOS movies, so they had to get Kirk back as the Captain somehow. Stupid reason, but they did it.

And seriously? Not a big deal?

You don't see a difference between firing first on a fanatic that is TRYING to provoke a war, and being attacked and defending yourselves? Because that's a HUGE difference, especially when we're talking about encounters between large states.

Burnham's logic is ludicrous. She wants to prevent a war with the Klingons.... by firing on a Klingon ship explicitly trying to provoke a war. The Federation firing first was EXACTLY what T'Kuvma was hoping for, and the reason he waited so long before attacking them. With T'Kuvma firing first the Federation was defending themselves against an aggressive fanatic that didn't have the backing of the Klingon Council. If the Federation had opened fire first and killed him the Klingons would have invaded the next day.

And the way she did it was even worse. She physically assaulted her captain and outright lied to the crew about what they were doing. Kirk was totally upfront with the crew about what he was doing and the expected consequences of their actions.

And yeah. She pled guilty because there was overwhelming, unambiguous evidence that she did exactly what they said she did, and there is no legal defense she can mount against the charges. So a trial was pointless, she was guilty of the charges and everybody knew it.

The idea that any other captain would accept her serving under them as an officer at all, much less as their 2nd in command, is ridiculous.

[Maelstrom]

Since we know her punishment is waived immediately so she can be assigned to the Discovery as its XO, yes, she has no consequences.


You must be joking.

Yeah. Life imprisonment! Never mind, no need to actually do that. Now go be the 2nd in command of a starship and we'll just forget about it.

Seriously i wouldn't trust her peeling potatoes in the kitchen, much less as an XO.

1. We do not know the time period between her trial and the events in the teaser trailer. != Immediately waived punishment
2. We do not know the events leading up to her being transferred to the Discovery. There may be a valid reason to commute/alter the sentence.
3. Watching the teaser trailer, She is never made out to be the XO, quite the opposite, in every scene she is out of official uniform, save one where she is wearing silver,
rather than gold (not command staff). NOTE: As there is no timeline, we still do not know what order the events are in, this scene, where she is in silver, could very well be a flashback.
4. I do agree, she is definitely not XO material as her decisions show in the "2-part TV movie prologue". As shown, there is no reasonable justification for her to lose her shizbit as portrayed and she comes off as a loose canon, quite possibly valuable to a mission, but no the rock steady counterpart needed as an executive officer (one that she was made out to be in the first 10 minutes of the show);



I've not seen the script, and I doubt any of us have, limiting our ability to judge the series in it's entirety. In my opinion, it's still entertaining TV (ST: DSC), despite several issues I may have with it. Time will tell and it's certainly paid off for other series where the pilot episode was less than stellar.

EDIT: On topic. Watched the first two episodes of Orville and am not yet convinced. It's interesting, but not? I cannot quite put my finger on it quite yet. I can say that I have a *really* hard time taking Seth McFarland serious, that may be part of the issue. On to episode 3 to see if I can firm up my opinions...

[Rogar Demonblud]

The studio has explicitly stated that Burnham will be the XO of the Discovery. So the only question now is 'do you trust the studio to know what they're talking about?'. Since they seem to think they have the first black lead in Star Trek history here, I don't trust these people with the concept of 'fire is hot'.

What consequences will we see? She pleads guilty in episode 2, reports to new ship next week. Yes, they can say she went to prison. They also said she's a professional, well-trained officer. But they keep showing us the opposite.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

And I said it was a stupid resolution to the plot when it happened, almost all of movie Trek after Wrath of Khan is REALLY bad.

To be fair though, absolutely all of movie Trek before Wrath of Khan is really bad as well.

Plus the best movie is of course First Contact. I will fight anyone over that, just not with holographic bullets set to deadly.

[Maelstrom]

The studio has explicitly stated that Burnham will be the XO of the Discovery. So the only question now is 'do you trust the studio to know what they're talking about?'. Since they seem to think they have the first black lead in Star Trek history here, I don't trust these people with the concept of 'fire is hot'.

What consequences will we see? She pleads guilty in episode 2, reports to new ship next week. Yes, they can say she went to prison. They also said she's a professional, well-trained officer. But they keep showing us the opposite.


Looking around, I can find no direct reference to her as XO of the USS Discovery. Plenty of references to her as the XO of the Shenzhou, to her being cast as the XO on Star Trek: Discovery (not of THE Discovery), etc etc, but none explicitly as the XO beyond the first two episodes. IF that does happen, I'll be right there with you; I can see no reason she'd be put back in that position (OK, Kirk got plenty of leeway, Paris, etc -- hated that they did that too!).

I'll keep looking around a bit, but just in case, do you have a link directly from the studio?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I've watched the first two episodes of The Orville, I hereby accept is as part of the Star trek lineup, similar in status to Galaxy Quest.

[Palanan]

I just watched the third episode of Orville, and loved it.

This is somewhat qualified, because I don't like the blue-collar crudity that seems to be an undercurrent in this show; I especially didn't appreciate the scene with the giant amoeba and the doctor. That's not my style of humor, and it's the main thing I don't like so far.

But fortunately, there's plenty else to laugh at--from the perfectly timed tumbleweed to the dancing bandito, as well as the near-constant back-and-forth between Mercer and his XO. (Ex-wife XO? XWFO?) The show is goofy and I love it.

And yet, the third episode goes out on a limb, and does something that previous incarnations of Trek often tried: to make a meaningful, relevant story about a comtemporary topic, packaged in science fiction format. Not only did Orville do a decent job of it (within their rather goofy parameters) but they pulled it off better than some episodes of actual Trek.

That said, it was obvious as soon as the Great Author was mentioned that he would turn out to be female. But the actual reveal was very nicely done.

As for Seth McFarlane, I had barely heard of him before this show, and I still don't have much sense of what else he's done. But he clicks for me as Ed Mercer. Like the admiral said in the pilot, he isn't anyone's first choice, but he putters through as best as he can.

Is this grand, soaring science fiction? Hardly; but it's not meant to be. It's meant to be fun, and so far I'm enjoying it.

[Chen]

I might have missed something but how did they actually find the author? The captain sent out parameters to scan for, so were those just parameters for female Moclans? And it just happened that the only one on the planet was their most famous author?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Chen
I might have missed something but how did they actually find the author? The captain sent out parameters to scan for, so were those just parameters for female Moclans? And it just happened that the only one on the planet was their most famous author?

I don’t think they were scanning for the author per se, just female Moclans. The fact that the female they found happened to be the author was just icing.

And my impression was that they found a number of females. Not sure why they chose the one who turned out to be the author; my only guess is that she was the nearest to the trial.




Originally Posted by Palanan, p. 6 of Discovery thread
…lying, physical assault and usurpation of command….


Originally Posted by Starbuck_II, p. 4 of Orville thread
…lying, physical assault and usurpation of command….

I suppose I’m flattered.

:smallamused:

[Mando Knight]

As for Seth McFarlane, I had barely heard of him before this show, and I still don't have much sense of what else he's done. But he clicks for me as Ed Mercer. Like the admiral said in the pilot, he isn't anyone's first choice, but he putters through as best as he can.

He's most famous for being the creator of Family Guy and American Dad!, as well as one of the recurring voice actors on Robot Chicken (such as Palpatine in the Robot Chicken Star Wars specials).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Mando Knight
He's most famous for being the creator of Family Guy and American Dad….

I’ve seen commercials for the first one, and the DVDs from when Sam’s Club used to carry those.

Wasn’t there a Family Guy Star Wars special or something?


Originally Posted by Mando Knight
…Palpatine in the Robot Chicken Star Wars specials….

Now there’s a credit I can respect. :smalltongue:

[Tyndmyr]

I might have missed something but how did they actually find the author? The captain sent out parameters to scan for, so were those just parameters for female Moclans? And it just happened that the only one on the planet was their most famous author?

Seemed to be female, yes. It was a very convenient revelation for our protaganists, but...I think it was interesting that ultimately, the stroke of luck didn't win the day. So, it doesn't really end up being a deus ex machina, despite being very coincidental.

[Chen]

Seemed to be female, yes. It was a very convenient revelation for our protaganists, but...I think it was interesting that ultimately, the stroke of luck didn't win the day. So, it doesn't really end up being a deus ex machina, despite being very coincidental.

It's just that the coincidence was the ONLY part of bringing in a female Moclan that even could have convinced any of them. I do agree in the end it made no difference, but it feels shoddy to begin with.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
I think it was interesting that ultimately, the stroke of luck didn't win the day. So, it doesn't really end up being a deus ex machina, despite being very coincidental.


Originally Posted by Chen
It's just that the coincidence was the ONLY part of bringing in a female Moclan that even could have convinced any of them. I do agree in the end it made no difference, but it feels shoddy to begin with.

I think they wanted to show just how deeply rooted the conviction was in Moclan society. Remember, every individual on the jury was male, and not everyone puts a high value on literary figures.

The coincidence was very dramatic (and a little predictable) but I doubt if it was the only coincidence that would have convinced the jury. The Moclans are apparently hardcore industrialists and arms merchants, so if their top weapons designer was revealed as secretly being female, that might have had a little more of an impact. But that's pure speculation.

Also, as far as some of the discussions of Moclan biology earlier in this thread—if there are natural females, it makes no sense for the males to be effectively androgynous, since there would be no reason for natural males to have all of the extremely complex structures and hormonal pathways required to gestate an egg.

I’m thinking the only reason that makes sense is some hardcore genetic engineering in their past—probably from males who wanted to improve the species by cutting out the weak females altogether. Since they’ve run roughshod over their planet in the service of the military-industrial complex, it would follow that they’d be just as willing to steamroll their own genome in the service of some uber-masculine ideal.

[Pex]

Seemed to be female, yes. It was a very convenient revelation for our protaganists, but...I think it was interesting that ultimately, the stroke of luck didn't win the day. So, it doesn't really end up being a deus ex machina, despite being very coincidental.

Yeah, it would have been easy to keep the baby female. I was half-expecting at the end of the show they would reveal that the child remained female, fooling the planet, and have her pretend to be male when necessary in the future until an opportune time to reveal the truth. I'm almost glad they didn't go through with it out of spite. I was getting a bit annoyed with everyone trying to convince Bortus not to do it.

I'll be interested in how the crew reacts when they inevitably encounter a female-dominated planet where males are enslaved, killed after procreation, and/or eaten. How accepting will they be of that planet's culture?

[Chen]

I'll be interested in how the crew reacts when they inevitably encounter a female-dominated planet where males are enslaved, killed after procreation, and/or eaten. How accepting will they be of that planet's culture?

Probably the same as in this episode? That is, not accepting at all.

[Rogar Demonblud]

A planet of preying mantises? Definitely interesting, in a 'watch from the next planet over' way.

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, it would have been easy to keep the baby female. I was half-expecting at the end of the show they would reveal that the child remained female, fooling the planet, and have her pretend to be male when necessary in the future until an opportune time to reveal the truth. I'm almost glad they didn't go through with it out of spite. I was getting a bit annoyed with everyone trying to convince Bortus not to do it.

I'll be interested in how the crew reacts when they inevitably encounter a female-dominated planet where males are enslaved, killed after procreation, and/or eaten. How accepting will they be of that planet's culture?

You were getting annoyed with advocating basic sapient rights? :smallconfused:

[Pex]

You were getting annoyed with advocating basic sapient rights? :smallconfused:

Annoyed with their righteousness. I was ok with the Captain and the Doctor declining the request. It was the insistence of the crew's manipulation that was a little grating. I felt Bortus convinced to change his mind by Rudolph was script writer arbitrariness rather than character development. I needed someone in the crew to defend the planet's culture for the operation even if he/she disagreed, and either Bortus or his mate to have been against the procedure from the beginning.

[Renegade Paladin]

The point is that Moclan culture, at least in this regard, is objectively bad. The show's been rubbing our faces in the fact that the wider Union knows little to nothing about Moclan society and biology. This is what's probably only the first instance of that coming around to bite them. A non-Moclan crewmember offering a defense of forcing the procedure on an infant would say more about that member of the crew than about the defensibility of the Moclan practice.

[Kislath]

Okay, tonight's episode was pretty good, although a near-direct ripoff of the classic Trek episode "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky." It was better than the original, so I'm happy to forgive it.

So, giant spaceship, adrift for thousands of years, populated by people who have forgotten they're on a ship. So far so good.

( I myself once tried to run a PbP D&D game here in the Playground using the same premise, with the characters living on a giant bio-ship and gradually noticing as they leveled up that things were somehow off a bit. I haven't given up on that. )

The religious theocracy part was a bit irksome, but it worked.

It's plain to see now that the Union doesn't have a Prime Directive. LOL! I wonder how many, er, Doranians? went crazy when they opened up the moon-roof.

[SuperPanda]

Got a chance to see episode 4 and even as someone who has had a hard time getting behind the pevious episodes this one felt solidly good. The moments which are suppose to be jokes still feel stupid and tacked on - they also seem to be happening less. The Awkward character humor works very well (even if it feels like retreading Data and Word jokes - they still work well in the show).

This was a solid episode. pretty much the only character who still seems to have no redeeming element for me is the best-friend helmsman. Everyone else has times where they annoy (the Captain more than not), times when they are amusing (the robot more than not) and times when they are convincingly real (the Doctor more than not).

This is the first episode that felt like a real Trek episode rather than a LARP using a Trek-like setting. I legitimately liked this one.

[Bowerbird]

I wonder how many, er, Doranians? went crazy when they opened up the moon-roof.

I'll admit, a part of me wanted the immediate reaction of the ship-people, beyond sheer surprise, to be terror and violent riots, and just have it ruin the moment. Also evidently Liam Neeson owed McFarlane a favour? How long do you think before we get Patrick Stewart in a cameo?

[Renegade Paladin]

This episode was intense. The subplot with Bortus and Klyden is still on, but the main plot of the episode... wow.

Alara just getting shot out of hand. And the execution by crowd of that poor guy was BRUTAL. I'm honestly surprised they did it.

[BannedInSchool]

Huh, surprisingly good old school SF in the latest episode. Abbreviated at the end and missing developing the guest aliens' reaction to events, but overall acceptable. Most of the story was just wondering what was going to happen next as there wasn't a lot of tension between known possible outcomes, but in the moment it was engaging enough.

[The New Bruceski]

Looking at the episode numbers, this one was second. I assume they shifted them around because they wanted to show reviewers the one from last week with the kid's trial and were only releasing the "first three". That explains some of the clunkiness like how their marital relations are strained but that isn't addressed at all later (patched in from a later episode) and the doctor's relationship with the blob; the two scenes we saw of it were in reverse order so it feels odd that he was explicit and then just asking her out.

[Renegade Paladin]

Looking at the episode numbers, this one was second. I assume they shifted them around because they wanted to show reviewers the one from last week with the kid's trial and were only releasing the "first three". That explains some of the clunkiness like how their marital relations are strained but that isn't addressed at all later (patched in from a later episode) and the doctor's relationship with the blob; the two scenes we saw of it were in reverse order so it feels odd that he was explicit and then just asking her out.

This one HAS to be the fourth one, because the baby is in a bassinet at the foot of their bed in the opening scene, so it has to be post-baby. The baby was hatched at the very end of the second episode, and the third opens with the rest of the crew going gaga over her immediately post-birth. This one was most definitely the fourth; the existence of the kid solidifies the chronology.

[SuperPanda]

Not only that but the Jello's conversation has a lot more heart in it this time - before it was immature bravado. Here it was an immature request for companionship and a mature awareness of depression resulting from a feeling of isolation and loneliness.

If the show goes the next step to having the Jello give up on pursing the physical side of things and actually seeking a meaningful emotional connection Inwill be pleasantly surprised.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Episode 3 and 4 were both a little on the heavy handed side for me. WARNING: SPOILERS!

The ending episode 3 eventually got to was fine, but for a while I was actually hoping for a joke ending like scanners determining that half of those guys had been born as females, leading to them completely abandoning the single gendered species thing. That's because for most of the episode there really wasn't much of a dialogue, just people stating their position, and then giving arguments that didn't help much. "Look, some aliens are stronger then you." So? Could I have done better with a topic like that? Probably not by a long shot, but it was a little cringeworthy to me for the duration.

Episode 4 was better, but still similarly unsubtle in places, with people just outright stating "you know fully well what is going on but you pretend something else to your people because that is how this power structure has been build up I'm totally not saying this so any viewers who didn't get that yet can catch up", basically. Nobody changed position during the story (in contrast to episode 3, where at least one person changed theirs, but for weird reasons I could hardly relate to), the bad guys just got scared to enforce their position any further because they could see stars now. But the setting and the basic idea and stuff were solid for a show like this.

I guess my beef is that the show looks and feels like a bit of a loose and humorous take on Star Trek but then puts up an even straighter face than Trek itself when handling situations too complex to handle with the full delicacy they deserve in a 45 minute television show. And that clashes. Keeping it a little bit sillier would probably have made me like these episodes a lot more, while losing nothing of the arguments presented.

[Palanan]

So, tonight’s episode was another romp through familiar Trek territory, with a crucial test of Captain Mercer’s seasoned judgement:



Charlize Theron vs. Adrienne Palicki. Definitely a tough one.

Obviously Charlize did the best acting on the show tonight—so much that she almost seemed out of place. But I’m not complaining.

I admit, the time-traveling angle was a surprise, and a fun one. Ahh, the old criminal-from-the-future trick. TNG did that at least twice (Rasmussen and the Vorgabogs, or whatever they were) if not more.

They really are having fun working their way through all the classic TNG tropes. Right now the show seems to be sliding into the niche of Star Trek Extra Lite, in which they try to do more than slapstick parody, but don’t reach quite far enough for original stories.

It’s shameless brain candy, and I’m okay with that.

Cool effect with the dark-matter globules, much nicer than expected.

But they must have spent all their budget on that sequence (and Charlize Theron) because the wormhole looked like it was done with bits of crepe paper. Not sure if that was intentional or not.

Between Seinfeld and the New Jersey housewives, I’m getting a definite sense of Seth McFarlane’s happy place.

I predict we’ll be seeing Highlander sometime soon.

[SuperPanda]

I pretty much agree with everything Palanan said. The humor is still (and I'm assuming will always remain) off to me. The Character of Gordon is still annoying and seems to suck talent out of almost any scene he's in. It works for what it is.

I'm pretty happy having both this and Discovery on the air right now. I've got my shameless brain-candy here and Shiney VFX over there. I'm seeing the Orville or Discovery thing going around the internet as Star Wars vs Star Trek round 2. The obvious answer for me now, as then, is "both please."

[lunaticfringe]

Something I've noticed which may just be my own insanity. So i've heard background music helps audience immersion in dramatic scenes. It isn't really desired/utilized in comedy because viewing things from the outside or from a step back is beneficial for grasping certain styles of comedy.

I think Orville could benefit from more background music. Especially the most recent episode.

I'm glad a show like the Orville is on the air because I like Humorous Sci-Fi/Fantasy and want more of it. I just wish it were better.

[Renegade Paladin]

Huh. MASSIVE causality problems aside, one thing is bothering me. Mercer talked about his marriage and divorce. Unless I missed something, he did NOT identify Grayson as his ex-wife to Pria.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by SuperPanda
I'm pretty happy having both this and Discovery on the air right now. I've got my shameless brain-candy here and Shiney VFX over there.... The obvious answer for me now, as then, is "both please."

Yup, this in spades.

If Discovery was on regular broadcast the way Orville is, I’d be right there with you, enjoying the VFX and the brain-candy alike. Sadly, CBS chose differently, so it’s Silly Trek for me.

Oddly enough, Orville seems to be the show that’s bringing in the high-powered guest stars. My guess is that there are a lot of actors who dreamed of a guest spot on Star Trek when they were just starting out, and this is the next best thing.

As to why they’re not on Discovery—I have a feeling that the producers of Discovery would see that as a distraction from the show’s characters and storyline, whereas Orville is cheerfully lightweight with both. It’s basically an hour-long sitcom in space.

At some point I would like a thoughtful, in-depth show about the rigors of interstellar exploration, combined with the wonders of the unknown and a broadening awareness of humanity’s place in the galaxy; but until then, Orville will do. Apart from the entertainment value, it’s also a nice reminder of all the go-to tropes in science fiction writing.

If Orville visits a planet with four-armed green aliens and barely-clad women, I may swoon.


Originally Posted by SuperPanda
I'm seeing the Orville or Discovery thing going around the internet as Star Wars vs Star Trek round 2.

Ahh, the clannish nature of internet fandom. Comparing Star Trek to Star Wars was always apples to oranges, but comparing Orville to Discovery is more like kumquats to jellyfish.


Originally Posted by lunaticfringe
I'm glad a show like the Orville is on the air because I like Humorous Sci-Fi/Fantasy and want more of it. I just wish it were better.

Well, it’s just a few episodes into the first season. I’m expecting it’ll get better, and in the meantime I’m having fun.


Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin
Mercer talked about his marriage and divorce. Unless I missed something, he did NOT identify Grayson as his ex-wife to Pria.

I didn't pick up on that, but presumably that would have come out in conversation at some point. They probably spent a while in the holodeck, if nothing else.

[Renegade Paladin]

Oddly enough, Orville seems to be the show that’s bringing in the high-powered guest stars. My guess is that there are a lot of actors who dreamed of a guest spot on Star Trek when they were just starting out, and this is the next best thing.

As to why they’re not on Discovery—I have a feeling that the producers of Discovery would see that as a distraction from the show’s characters and storyline, whereas Orville is cheerfully lightweight with both. It’s basically an hour-long sitcom in space.

A lot of that is Seth MacFarlane knowing a lot of people in Hollywood, getting lots of them to do cameos in Family Guy, and being willing to make phone calls.

[The New Bruceski]

Also famous people like a paycheck as much as the next guy.

[Renegade Paladin]

Also famous people like a paycheck as much as the next guy.

Doesn't hurt, but broadcast TV shows almost never have the budget to pay the asking salary of an A list film star. That's what makes it remarkable. :smallsmile:

[The Patterner]

Doesn't hurt, but broadcast TV shows almost never have the budget to pay the asking salary of an A list film star. That's what makes it remarkable. :smallsmile:

I might be wrong, bit I always assumed Charlize Theron and Seth Macfarlane were actuall friends.

[Tyndmyr]

Huh. MASSIVE causality problems aside, one thing is bothering me. Mercer talked about his marriage and divorce. Unless I missed something, he did NOT identify Grayson as his ex-wife to Pria.

That is correct.

And it's a clue that the reason she knows about them is not from their conversation.

[Renegade Paladin]

I might be wrong, bit I always assumed Charlize Theron and Seth Macfarlane were actuall friends.
That is where I was going, yes.

[rooster707]

My thoughts on the new episode:

I thought this one was pretty good, although I wasn't sure until the very end. I'm glad they got called out on killing an entire ship full of people, if it had just been "okay, you killed the bad guys, great job" I don't think I would have liked it.

[Renegade Paladin]

My thoughts on the new episode:

I thought this one was pretty good, although I wasn't sure until the very end. I'm glad they got called out on killing an entire ship full of people, if it had just been "okay, you killed the bad guys, great job" I don't think I would have liked it.

I'm with Mercer on this one. What the hell else were they supposed to do? Saving the children was downright heroic under the circumstances.

[thompur]

I'm liking this show more with each episode. This latest especially had a better balance of humor and pathos, and the humor was more character driven.

[Pex]

I'm with Mercer on this one. What the hell else were they supposed to do? Saving the children was downright heroic under the circumstances.

He wasn't wrong. It just is. This was classic paladin fights the orcs but then has to deal with orc children.

The Krill children will hate humans. The cycle continues.

[Renegade Paladin]

Anyway: Holy hell, Malloy should have gotten them caught LONG before he did. Who thought it was a good idea to send an undisciplined jackass who can't keep his mouth shut on an infiltration mission?

[SuperPanda]

Anyway: Holy hell, Malloy should have gotten them caught LONG before he did. Who thought it was a good idea to send an undisciplined jackass who can't keep his mouth shut on an infiltration mission?

I think that's pretty much the premise of the entire series. Neither Malloy or Mercer should be anywhere near any job which requires good judgment or responsible behavior (most of the other characters manage to believably sell their "more normal" side and their professional sides).

McFarlane said in an interview he basically wanted to take Sci-Fi stories and make them feel "mundane" by making the characters feel like normal people. Honestly the "eat a cactus" scene sold this idea for me, it was cute and funny and I'm okay with it. The aim of the show is "blue collar starfleet" while still having everyone be super amazing elite within their profession. I find that element to be hit or miss for me, others seem to love it.

That said
I really, really wanted a scene where the Krill Captain and Priest debated our hero's being spies and the Captain disregarded it because they were too stupid to be spies. That would have been the comedic pay off which turned the whole thing to gold for me instead of just being awkward and annoying. On the whole I liked the episode and resolution - but the humor continues to completely miss the mark for me.

[Renegade Paladin]

Mercer isn't wholly incompetent. He did manage to command his ship in such a way that they defeated a vastly superior enemy combatant at the start of the episode, after all. But all Malloy is good for is flying the ship.

[SuperPanda]

Mercer is far better than Malloy. I agree with that completely. He grates on my personally in the same way Malloy does but just to a lesser extent.

Both actors seems to be trying to hard to be funny while everything else manages to be funny through being in character.

[Pex]

Anyway: Holy hell, Malloy should have gotten them caught LONG before he did. Who thought it was a good idea to send an undisciplined jackass who can't keep his mouth shut on an infiltration mission?

Agreed, but what also bothered me is that his antics only got to the level of suspicion from the Krill cleric. His behavior was atrocious yet the Krill treated it as normal. Even when it's the Krill speaking with themselves it's in the same informal vein as the show without the wisecracks. I can appreciate the Captain and Malloy wouldn't know how to behave on a Krill ship and making issue about their names was spot on, but the ignorance was not followed through beyond that. They're trying too hard to be a non-parody parody the show is failing at being a parody and being taken seriously. The potential is there. They can't keep it.

First step is get rid of Malloy.

[Renegade Paladin]

I mean, the only possible answer I can think of is that the Krill, in their arrogant superiority complex, didn't consider the possibility that humans could effectively disguise themselves as Krill and so didn't think to be suspicious except for the priest Commissar.

[Reddish Mage]

Have people stopped talking about Orville? Or is the only reason why the thread is so far down because there is

The comments regarding the last episodes didn't really play out. Of course the Krill lack of suspicion regarding incredibly naive human spies is beyond belief.

The Krill failing to recognize obvious human spies acting absurdly seemed to me like a play for humor. Its not supposed to be believable that the ship accept two unbelievably naive and odd acting Krill with a fantastic survival story. Like much of the humor of the show however, its a bit problematic because the absurdity blends into a serious plot onboard the Krill ship.

Its part of the split identity of the show that there's even a possibility of taking it seriously. The Orville definitely has a very weird sense of humor mixed into its serious dumbed-down Star Trek-style plots.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I liked the Krill episode, I just don't have much to add to it. Nobody got overly preachy, no real atrocities were committed, there was enough humor. Yes, the Krill were stupidly non suspicious, but that was kind of needed for the plot. That also brings in the question of whether it was good to release the children with the knowledge of these devices, since it turned out how potent a weapon they make. Two guys equipped with them can take out any Krill ship, let's win this war now! But that feels like nitpicking, because this episode hits the tone of a comedy show. I wouldn't ask those questions if Red Dwarf had an episode like this.

So yeah, quality episode, well done. Gimme the next one please.

[Rogar Demonblud]

There wasn't a new episode last week, so not much to say until the next one on Thursday.

[Reddish Mage]

Mercer is far better than Malloy. I agree with that completely. He grates on my personally in the same way Malloy does but just to a lesser extent.

Both actors seems to be trying to hard to be funny while everything else manages to be funny through being in character.

Its not the actors that are trying hard to be funny. Mercer and Malloy are both characters that try to be funny. Mercer makes jokes, he makes flat jokes, he makes inappropriate jokes to Bortus who can't get jokes (while inspecting his crew in the shuttle bay).

Malloy does the same thing, but unlike Mercer, who has to actually captain during the episode, Malloy plays a clown without reservation. He gets to do extremely stupid things like trying to get Isaac to learn practical jokes (What could go wrong! Remember Data in Generations?).



I liked the Krill episode, I just don't have much to add to it. Nobody got overly preachy, no real atrocities were committed, there was enough humor. Yes, the Krill were stupidly non suspicious, but that was kind of needed for the plot. That also brings in the question of whether it was good to release the children with the knowledge of these devices, since it turned out how potent a weapon they make. Two guys equipped with them can take out any Krill ship, let's win this war now!

Actually, that's the thing about the Krill episode and this show in general: the Krill didn't need to be stupidly non-suspicious if Mercer and Malloy weren't so stupid obviously suspicious. Together it made for the basic humor of the episode: two absurdly non-qualified spies successfully infiltrate a Krill ship.

Releasing the children, with the knowledge of how the Union infiltrated a Krill ship, wasn't tactically smart. However, this and the fact that Mercer was taken to task for killing an enemy vessel mid-attack, was consistent with the naivety of the mission in the first place.


My thoughts on the new episode:

I thought this one was pretty good, although I wasn't sure until the very end. I'm glad they got called out on killing an entire ship full of people, if it had just been "okay, you killed the bad guys, great job" I don't think I would have liked it.

Getting called to task for killing to stop an attack by the enemy would be unthinkable in Discovery. A different Star Trek episode would have likely handled it as more of an internal reflection on the part of the captain. Enemy ships get blown up in Star Trek (with everyone presumably dying), it happens. Its actually odd that it was called out, but it shows how peaceful (to the point of naivety) the Union is when bringing home an intact enemy battlecruiser (when previously they haven't gotten as much as an intact shuttle) isn't celebrated.

[MikelaC1]

Orville completely outclasses Discovery, and its not even close. I just cannot stand the way Discovery totally thumbs its nose at the Star Trek (original) level of technology (whom they should be trailing) and sets themselves up as miles ahead, simply because their producers have shiny new CGI toys that ST never even dreamed of having. Holographic computer projections, a warp drive enabled shuttle craft, a warp drive main vessel that can cross the universe in an instant...even the Klingons are given cloaking technology that they should only have gotten after the alliance with the Romulans, which was previewed in ST original. Not to mention the reverse evolutionary process the Klingons have undergone.

[Renegade Paladin]

However, this and the fact that Mercer was taken to task for killing an enemy vessel mid-attack, was consistent with the naivety of the mission in the first place.

...

Getting called to task for killing to stop an attack by the enemy would be unthinkable in Discovery.

This here makes me question whether you actually watched the episode rather than just winging it on what was spoiled in this thread. Because while Mercer was taken to task, after a fashion, it wasn't by his superiors. It was by the single Krill adult they captured alive, by virtue of her being the schoolteacher and being in the room they left dark to preserve the children. Of course she was mad at him. Why wouldn't she be?

[Olinser]

Orville completely outclasses Discovery, and its not even close. I just cannot stand the way Discovery totally thumbs its nose at the Star Trek (original) level of technology (whom they should be trailing) and sets themselves up as miles ahead, simply because their producers have shiny new CGI toys that ST never even dreamed of having. Holographic computer projections, a warp drive enabled shuttle craft, a warp drive main vessel that can cross the universe in an instant...even the Klingons are given cloaking technology that they should only have gotten after the alliance with the Romulans, which was previewed in ST original. Not to mention the reverse evolutionary process the Klingons have undergone.

That's been my biggest problem with more than just the tech. They want to have it both ways.

They want to have PREQUEL TREK and yet do whatever they want with the canon and technology. If that's what they wanted they should have done it post-Voyager and they could have done whatever struck their fancy.

[Reddish Mage]

This here makes me question whether you actually watched the episode rather than just winging it on what was spoiled in this thread. Because while Mercer was taken to task, after a fashion, it wasn't by his superiors. It was by the single Krill adult they captured alive, by virtue of her being the schoolteacher and being in the room they left dark to preserve the children. Of course she was mad at him. Why wouldn't she be?

I did see the episode, I didn't remember the Union admiral saying anything about it except for schoolteacher-sweet-on-Mercer but I read someone else's post as meaning Mercer got balled out by the Union (I think the post said literally that the "show" ended with it though).

Given the Union wanted to launch a crazy-dangerous mission with their only-ever intact Krill shuttle for the scripture because they thought if they only understood the Krill a bit better they would have peace. I figure the Admiral who launched the mission would be fairly upset to learn Mercer ended up slaughtering the entire crew and taking back the warship.

That and the whole episode (or the show for that matter) suggests a great deal of moral & intellectual naivety on the part of ... really everyone.

However, Miss Krill's moment at the end was a high point of the episode, and what she said was not naive. What she says is from a mature perspective, it was sharp and bitter, and it confronts Mercer that his naive moral perspective is not going to be universally applauded.

She not only bitterly lambasts Mercer for killing her people but also she doesn't understand (or recognize) the compassion in Mercer. She actually criticizes him for his mercy. She tells him: those kids you saved, are going to become your enemies.

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, pretty much. There was no indication in the episode that the Union admiralty was upset at Mercer and Malloy for doing what they did considering the alternative was the total destruction of a colony.

And it's almost doubtless that she doesn't recognize the compassion in what the Union officers did. Recall, she was patiently explaining to her students that humans are analogous to machines and don't have souls or rational thought earlier in the episode. In her worldview, nothing a non-Krill does can be right or compassionate.

[SuperPanda]

I genuinely enjoy Orville. I genuinely like Discovery. I find that one rewards repeat viewing and thinking about what the episodes have to say while the other does not.

I don't want to attack Orville for not being what I want it to be. I understand but am saddened by the need some have to do that to Discovery.

I feel like I need to try to defend my preferences and feelings when this happens - but I don't want to attack other people's. instead I'll just try to explain my own. To me there is really nothing "Trek" about Orville. If feels more like Stargate Atlantis to me (I love Stargate too). Stargate was always a big fun adventure. It was fun first, and sometimes smart too. It used sci-fi concepts to explore fun or make adventure. Trek was always more introspective to me. The adventure was front and center - but it grappled with what it means to be human, our duty to protect whales, how we see other cultures. The best Trek asked me to think about my life and choices. The best Stargate made me smile, laugh, and pump my fist as the heroes triumph.

I like Orville. The episodes are fun and gripping. They really don't reward thinking too much about them or repeat viewing so far (this could change).

Let's look at Krill: that nice trope subversion at the end ... what is it suppose to say to us, the viewer, about reality? (I know the answer is that is isn't - it's just escapist fun and that's okay).

We start with a conflict (us vs them, union v Krill). We are given a perspective that the Krill are just plain evil. We're told that they are very religious - get a heavy handed "religion makes people bad/stupid" comment - we're introduced to the hope of peace through understanding the other. We get some, not very funny situation comedy (which follows the actually funny "eat this" comedy). We get the sort-of friendship with the teacher and the very interesting and promising interactions with the one nice Krill kid. We get the ritualistic violence and WMD plot which hammers home that the Krill really are monsters. We get the "Heroes don't kill kids" plot to remind us that "we" aren't evil (even though the heroes have blown up two other ships which apparently had kids on them too). We end by pointing out that the compassion of saving the kids only produces more animosity because the kids grow up knowing we killed their faimly...

So what was Mercer suppose to do?

Kill the kids? The Krill wouldn't know the details (and we know from the start that they don't value non-Krill life). The way they ended the episode really suggests that this was he smarter action - and that leaves me very uncomfortable when I take that idea and look to the real world. He didn't know about the kids before - but he also learns about them after he gets a vivid demonstration of just how "evil" the adults are. So, with the exception of the one good kid who was curious about the world we are left with a situation where the smart thing would have been to kill the kids.

That is a very bleak perspective. There is no hope in that message of "Compassion is a weakness". It is dressed up with bright lights, happy colors, and smiling faces; but that message is a very dark one.

Alternately they could be trying to tell a story about how even good people can get messed up by the things they do in war. Good people who go off to war thinking they are going to be the hero often wind up haunted by things that happened in the war when they come home and are being told that they are the good guy. It can be hard to reconcile the action you needed to take, i.e. killing ships full of people, with the ideals you are suppose to represent. There are not yet any signs Mercer is going to suffer any lasting psychological issues from his time on the Krill ship. It is unlikely that a show like Orville would take time to give a decent portrayal of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and try to show a person who feels that they need to do evil things to protect good people and desperately wants to be a hero. I have a different show for that, so I don't mind Orville not approaching it.

About A Girl is similar - "we" know that the Moclan way is wrong the same way "we" know that killing kids is wrong. "We" agree that forcing an operation like that on an infant is unethical - but given their level of medical technology ... is it still? Within the context of the medical tech the Moclan argument is logically valid (I mean - amputating someone as a joke is a minor inconvinence in this universe). The operation has almost no lasting side effects physically or psychologically that are known.

If there was a medical procedure that let parents choose a child's eye color - would it be unethical to do so? What if brown eyes dominant in the culture and people with different colors faced very real discrimination. How many of us would side with the parent who wants to leave the kid's natural blue eyes over the one who wants them to be brown. We'd all dislike that society and think it's rules we're backward and stupid - but that choice within that context isn't backward or stupid. Within the episode, the Unions's cries of, "Be tolerant and don't be jerks" wasn't a compelling argument. Okay, that is smart place to start a discussion. Only Orville ended the discussion with that. In reaction to that argument not working they gave up. We are left with a group which is more of an "other" than before because we disagree with them. We're then asked to move on without introspection - just like all members of the crew do.

The Union members learn nothing form the Moclans, the Moclans learn nothing from the Union. The heroes loose. Within the hypothetical of the Moclan society they are presented as right. Moclan society is also presented as pretty darn awful. The seeds of a start of the conversation are there - The Union's tolerance has made a better society than the Moclan's close-minded-ness. This is undercut by the Union's inability to tolerate the Moclan's intolerance which Mercer lamp shades so that the show can hammer home that tolerating that kind of behavior is bad... The episode is thematically a hot mess that leaves me wondering if they weren't trying to say "Tolerance itself is dumb, the Union is superior because it is." Nothing in the episode really shows us that the Union actually is tolerant, it mearly shows us that the Union says it is tolerant (Crew-members joke about Moclan reproduction in derogatory ways the episode before, no one knows anything about Moclan society, the planet is called out as a horrible place to live, the reaction to hearing about Moclan society is to instantly try to change it - initially against the wishes of the friend they want to change it for).

I don't think Orville will run long enough for us to see the baby Moclan grow up and struggle with her identity as she tries to be what her parents want her to be instead of who she was born as. That's okay, I have a different show for that.

So kindness is a weakness and tolerance is dumb? Those feel like dreadful messages to me.

I want to stress again, I liked both episodes while watching them. The subversions made me want to think about the topic. Thinking about the topic left me deeply uncomfortable.

I'm left wondering which of the following is most true:
A) the writers didn't think about these things and neither should I.
B) the writers did think about this and it is suppose to deconstruct Star Trek rather than pay homage to it.
C) the writers are playing a long game and these plot lines will come back with clever, intelligent, and positive resolutions later.

Sadly both A and B leave me with a very pessimistic and cynical view of reality that is light years away from what is "Trek" to me. B would make me angry and I think is he least likely to be true (the show seems to honestly think it is a love letter to TNG). Nothing in the writing leave me thinking C will be true. I enjoy the show because it is A. I would freaking love the show if it was C.

TL:DR

I find Orville to have a Bright aesthetic (bright lights, crisp colors, upbeat music), a Cheerful presentation (Happy people, fun adventures, a mix of good and bad comedy at the forefront), and a deeply Cynical theme if I stop to think about them. So I try not to.

I personally find Orville much darker than the show its constantly (and unfairly to both shows) compared against. I find this to be true because I look less at the aesthetic and presentation and more at the theme of what is being presented.

I love the aesthetic and presentation of Orville. If I allow myself to get lost in the adventure and not read to carefully into it (if I ignore the theme) it is wonderful TV.

[Reddish Mage]

I genuinely enjoy Orville. I genuinely like Discovery. I find that one rewards repeat viewing and thinking about what the episodes have to say while the other does not.

I don't want to attack Orville for not being what I want it to be. I understand but am saddened by the need some have to do that to Discovery.

I feel like I need to try to defend my preferences and feelings when this happens - but I don't want to attack other people's. instead I'll just try to explain my own. To me there is really nothing "Trek" about Orville. If feels more like Stargate Atlantis to me (I love Stargate too). Stargate was always a big fun adventure. It was fun first, and sometimes smart too. It used sci-fi concepts to explore fun or make adventure. Trek was always more introspective to me. The adventure was front and center - but it grappled with what it means to be human, our duty to protect whales, how we see other cultures. The best Trek asked me to think about my life and choices. The best Stargate made me smile, laugh, and pump my fist as the heroes triumph.

Preferences are each their own. The fact that some people can't look past Discovery's basic premise and design to enjoy a deep sci-fi that breaks new ground saddens me. Not much can be said to defend the new aesthetic from purists.

I do feel you are doing more than just describing your appreciation of Orville and Discovery. You are giving a handle on the differences.

The Orville is more like Stargate in the sense that neither is especially deep.


I like Orville. The episodes are fun and gripping. They really don't reward thinking too much about them or repeat viewing so far (this could change).

This is where Orville differs from Stargate. We can hope for Star Trek levels of thoughtful sci-fi plots, and what we are getting is something...less.

For example compare this episode to its TNG analogues:

This reminds me of both the TNG episodes Justice or First Contact (more the former than the latter). Both TNG episodes elevate the members of the extreme civilizations and deal seriously with the notions. This episode deals with the notion of true democracy by extrapolating from social media, celebrity magazine, talk shows, and reality TV trends. "Government by American Idol." The crew get in trouble because the navigator decides to dry hump a statue.

The crew suggests the waitress might lead a movement against such strict democracy, but all we see of her post-close encounters life is that, rather than participate in the daily shamefest, she turns off the TV to that sort of vapid noise.

The basic problem with the episode is that Orville, is that it's own show doesn't rise very far above that sort of reality show nonsense.



Let's look at Krill: that nice trope subversion at the end ... what is it suppose to say to us, the viewer, about reality? (I know the answer is that is isn't - it's just escapist fun and that's okay).

We start with a conflict (us vs them, union v Krill). We are given a perspective that the Krill are just plain evil. We're told that they are very religious - get a heavy handed "religion makes people bad/stupid" comment - we're introduced to the hope of peace through understanding the other. We get some, not very funny situation comedy (which follows the actually funny "eat this" comedy). We get the sort-of friendship with the teacher and the very interesting and promising interactions with the one nice Krill kid. We get the ritualistic violence and WMD plot which hammers home that the Krill really are monsters. We get the "Heroes don't kill kids" plot to remind us that "we" aren't evil (even though the heroes have blown up two other ships which apparently had kids on them too). We end by pointing out that the compassion of saving the kids only produces more animosity because the kids grow up knowing we killed their faimly...

About A Girl is similar - "we" know that the Moclan way is wrong the same way "we" know that killing kids is wrong. "We" agree that forcing an operation like that on an infant is unethical - but given their level of medical technology ... is it still? Within the context of the medical tech the Moclan argument is logically valid (I mean - amputating someone as a joke is a minor inconvinence in this universe). The operation has almost no lasting side effects physically or psychologically that are known.

I'm left wondering which of the following is most true:
A) the writers didn't think about these things and neither should I.
B) the writers did think about this and it is suppose to deconstruct Star Trek rather than pay homage to it.
C) the writers are playing a long game and these plot lines will come back with clever, intelligent, and positive resolutions later.


Actually I think these two endings (if not the episodes themselves) are the best part of the series, and its percisely because it leaves you reaching to try to think about the point.

Most shows like to tell stories with clear morals and the moral is reinforced when the moral behavior or argument wins the day and the hereos are rewarded or applauded for their solution.

Not so with these two Orville episodes. Mercer saves the kids and is taken to task for it by the one Krill he spares (who paradoxically also attacks him for killing everyone else on the ship). This leaves one to think about "what should Mercer have done," without affirmatively saying that he should have killed the kids or spared them or have the Union keep them prisoner.

The Moclan baby gets the operation in the end. The Orville, Bortus, his spouse, everyone continues the status quo. That certainly isn't the ideal outcome, but the question becomes, was there anything anyone should (or could) have done differently?

These sorts of endings produce far more thought and contemplation than the standard endings. In real life, one should expect moral choices to always be rewarded or the moral outcome to prevail. I think they are great endings, but deserve weightier episodes to conclude.

[Legato Endless]

So what was Mercer suppose to do?

Kill the kids? The Krill wouldn't know the details (and we know from the start that they don't value non-Krill life). The way they ended the episode really suggests that this was he smarter action - and that leaves me very uncomfortable when I take that idea and look to the real world. He didn't know about the kids before - but he also learns about them after he gets a vivid demonstration of just how "evil" the adults are. So, with the exception of the one good kid who was curious about the world we are left with a situation where the smart thing would have been to kill the kids.

That honestly wasn't my reaction to the end. To me the question is, was returning the kids to their warmongering theocracy the right move? The smart thing is arguable, but it certainly isn't killing the children. That's just a horrifying waste. Either returning the kids back to the Krill is a good PR move to try to soften relations and give some credence to the idea the Union isn't a bunch of soulless automatons (Sorry Isaac), or if the Krill society is more resistant, then indoctrinating the kids into Union values is a better move.

Beyond hopefully avoiding having a bunch of soldiers gunning for you for obliterating their community, you get a better idea of Krill biology and psychology. And if Krill are amenable to other viewpoints (the episode seems to suggest their genocidal actions are more the result of a thin hodgepodge of religious propaganda) you gain a valuable tool for peacemaking later on. Having the same face as the enemy deliver your message is a big advantage in communication.

Now, whether or not that's what you should do is a different question, and probably more controversial than the Moclan dilemma. The final point to the episode to me was less killing potential enemies now is rational, and more, don't necessarily expect people to appreciate you for taking what you believed to be the best choice for them when it came at traumatic personal cost.

[Rogar Demonblud]

or if the Krill society is more resistant, then indoctrinating the kids into Union values is a better move.

Ah, yes. We can give them their own school. We'll call it the Carlisle Indian Krill Academy.

[Tyndmyr]

*shrug*

Real life morality isn't necessarily easy, and not everything gets tidly wrapped up in a bow after 30/60 minutes, minus commercials.

That sort of trope aversion actually makes the show a great deal better/more grounded IMO. A saccharine ending isn't necessary. Yeah, there's a theme there, but the show doesn't necessarily hand you answers, or even act as if a perfect answer exists. It doesn't, you do the best you can, you crack a few jokes, and life goes on.

Now, the show definitely has weaknesses sometimes, and yeah, the infiltration leaned on suspension of disbelief pretty hard in service to comedy. I definitely did some eyerolling once or twice as they bumbled though everything. That said, I think the modern viewer often regards a stereotypical happy ending as a waste of time, damaging to verisimilitude, or otherwise awful. Consider, old trek would likely have resolved the baby surgery plot with the heroes winning via heroic speech at the end there. It's not even just a Trek thing, a ton of old movies have the same thing. In real life, very few people utterly change their opinions because of a heartfelt speech, though, and the idea that finding the right couple of words fixes most anything kind of undercuts the stakes of conflict.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Boy, those disguise gadgets sure would have been handy in this episode. :smalleek:

But I like it. Don't look too far into it, don't try to find a perfect analogy to a real world thing they're making. I don't think they are.

And regarding the ending, I think it's kind of cool that they end up making only a small change. Somehow in moments like that The Orville manages to be more serious and more real than the stuff it imitates. You're not going to change the world with one maybe kind of cool speech.

[Reddish Mage]

Consider, old trek would likely have resolved the baby surgery plot with the heroes winning via heroic speech at the end there. It's not even just a Trek thing, a ton of old movies have the same thing. In real life, very few people utterly change their opinions because of a heartfelt speech, though, and the idea that finding the right couple of words fixes most anything kind of undercuts the stakes of conflict.

Its actually as old as Greek theater.

Also, we haven't actually got any sort of persuasive heartfelt speech to end a conflict yet. This is something that we got in Star Trek quite a bit. There's even a trope for the Patrick Stewart Speech (and the trope explanation notes he got good at it from being a Shakespearian actor).


Boy, those disguise gadgets sure would have been handy in this episode. :smalleek:

But I like it. Don't look too far into it, don't try to find a perfect analogy to a real world thing they're making. I don't think they are.

And regarding the ending, I think it's kind of cool that they end up making only a small change. Somehow in moments like that The Orville manages to be more serious and more real than the stuff it imitates. You're not going to change the world with one maybe kind of cool speech.

Actually, if this show ever tried to be contemporary social commentary (it is) this is where they are doing that.

They discover a planet that is a near-perfect analogue to 21st-century earth. The people are all watching television and using smartphones and tablets to take photos, share videos over the internet, and up vote and down vote people.

The only way the "aliens" are doing anything different is they are up voting and down voting people, and society is built around people's social media reputation to the extent that getting too many down-votes sends you to prison. This is just a dystopic extension of today's trendy social activity. Netflix's Black Mirror sci-fi has an episode based on a society that is similarly constructed (its the first one of the third season).

The angle they take makes it more political rather than just a critique of social media and reality TV. The crew equate the way society behaves with any form of true "direct democracy."

What's I find odd is that, in addition to explaining how a representative democracy works, the crew suggests the problem is that "everybody has a voice" and tells the alien waitress that "a voice must be earned not just given."

Essentially, they are saying that truly free speech harms the political process. This abstracts out the hysterical society obsessively based around how many "likes" you can earn (and moreover avoid the other thing), to make a broader point that suggests the problem with society today is that its, too easy to get a message out there.

I've already said the message of the end is to shut down all the noise of vapid social media and reality TV. Read in the context of this episode's political message, however, it is also suggesting a more tightly controlled social dialogue is superior.

Given the current climate, of course, I suppose the message might have been aimed narrowly, to suggest that certain politicians shouldn't be paying so much attention to TV and social media.

[Palanan]

I’ve just now caught up with the Planet Facebook episode, and while I didn’t love it as much as the gloriously goofy Krill episode, I still enjoyed the extrapolation of a society that runs on Like buttons.

There seems to be some lamenting about Orville being “dumbed down” or otherwise not holding to the standards of earlier Trek. I’m not perturbed by this supposed failing, because it never occurred to me for a moment that this would be anything other than Trek Lite. The previews were pretty clear on that.

For me, Orville hits the sweet spot between sincere Trek and affectionate parody. The details are fantastic; clearly the people doing this show loved TNG, and that comes out in unobtrusive ways. The sparkly-wondrous music as the shuttle brings the barista up to the ship was absolutely perfect—it sounded straight out of Star Trek II.

As for messages, I think the main message was what Isaac said, about confusing opinions with facts. Beyond that, there’s also some commentary about basing decisions on instant outrage, without context or time for reflection, plus a tip of the hat to hypersensitivity about so-called cultural appropriation. And they did a nice job poking fun at the prim, sanctimonious hosts of talk shows, as well as internet culture overall. (Dog videos save the day!)

Unlike others here, I can’t make direct comparisons between Orville and Discovery. But in this episode Orville went straight back to the grassroots of Trek, using improbable science fiction for some real-world social criticism. That sort of commentary was bread and butter for TOS, and Orville has managed to fuse that sensibility with the design ethos of TNG. It may not be Asimov-class science fiction, but it’s fun blend nonetheless.

[SuperPanda]

Preferences are each their own. The fact that some people can't look past Discovery's basic premise and design to enjoy a deep sci-fi that breaks new ground saddens me. Not much can be said to defend the new aesthetic from purists.

I do feel you are doing more than just describing your appreciation of Orville and Discovery. You are giving a handle on the differences.

I was trying to frame my perspective on both in part as a reaction to seeing both here and elsewhere the idea that liking Orville is mutually exclusive to liking Discovery; as well as the implication that enjoying the latter somehow invalidates my love of the franchise that it belongs to.

I really like both. Orville is its own thing and I like what it is. My greater explanation was more about how trying to fit Orville into my completely subjective idea of what Trek should be would prevent me from liking this show for what it is in the exact same way I see people complain about Discovery. I get how the complaints about Discovery are valid in that it actually is part of the Trek franchise while Orville is not - but since both rely on a "No True Scotsman" argument to begin with I was mostly just trying to vent my frustration at the new Star Wars vs Star Trek argument currently dividing the internet when I want to enjoy both and share that enjoyment with people who enjoy either one.



This is where Orville differs from Stargate. We can hope for Star Trek levels of thoughtful sci-fi plots, and what we are getting is something...less. I did not mean to rag on Stargate. SG-1 had some amazingly thoughtful episodes. I was more focused on the drive behind the shows. Star Trek was intended from the outset to challenge its viewers in both subtle and not so subtle ways. TOS was downright inflammatory in its original socio-political context. TNG, DS9, and VOY pushed boundaries (although increasingly more conservatively at the franchise went on).

Orville does hold a mirror to our society in interesting ways. It does provoke thought. As an exercise in literary analysis the show makes clear that it doesn't have answers for any of those questions - it is just presenting the question. For me (meaning entirely from my subjective position) this does not reward critical thinking about the show while it does serve as an interesting start for a conversation. I haven't had a chance to see Episode 7 yet but it sounds like a good one for this sort of thing. My problem with "About a Girl" and "Krill" as conversation starters is that the conversations they want to start are oooold.

"About a Girl" wasn't really about transsexual rights or situations. The sex-change operation which served as the conflict was drawing attention to the societies massive misogyny problem. The subtle (for Orville) commentary about what a society that has no traditional-female-roles in it would look like reminds me of Sliders - and to be clear I love Sliders. I've rewatched Sliders more than I have TNG - so this is a point in Orivlle's favor. Those details make me love Orville for what it is. The attempt at a morality play.

This is very similar to TNG's "The Outcast" (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/The_Outcast_(episode))

Single "gender" species. Demands hero's respect their culture. Hero's try to change their minds. One member seeks to oppose societal norm. Episode is resolved with a female loosing that gender identity.

Outcasts also has the heroes fail. It opens criticism about how society segregates gender. It includes a passionate plea about how two consenting adults love each other doesn't hurt people who aren't involved (which wasn't exactly a commonly accepted argument in 1992). The allegory works better for homosexuality than it does for trans-gendered individuals. Heck the J'naii's counterarguments were ones used against the acceptance of gay people in 1992.

We talked about the comparison in this thread and some here only remember the TNG episode ending being sad because Riker didn't get laid - and that's fine. On a surface level reading that's sort of what the story was. The episode put the pieces needed for a deeper reading about a topic which was controversial at the time. The same time of reading for "About a Girl" isn't



Actually I think these two endings (if not the episodes themselves) are the best part of the series, and its percisely because it leaves you reaching to try to think about the point.

Most shows like to tell stories with clear morals and the moral is reinforced when the moral behavior or argument wins the day and the hereos are rewarded or applauded for their solution.

Not so with these two Orville episodes. Mercer saves the kids and is taken to task for it by the one Krill he spares (who paradoxically also attacks him for killing everyone else on the ship). This leaves one to think about "what should Mercer have done," without affirmatively saying that he should have killed the kids or spared them or have the Union keep them prisoner.

The Moclan baby gets the operation in the end. The Orville, Bortus, his spouse, everyone continues the status quo. That certainly isn't the ideal outcome, but the question becomes, was there anything anyone should (or could) have done differently?

These sorts of endings produce far more thought and contemplation than the standard endings. In real life, one should expect moral choices to always be rewarded or the moral outcome to prevail. I think they are great endings, but deserve weightier episodes to conclude.

I pretty much 90% agree with you. I find Orville lacks any payoff for bringing up these questions.


*shrug*

Real life morality isn't necessarily easy, and not everything gets tidly wrapped up in a bow after 30/60 minutes, minus commercials.

That sort of trope aversion actually makes the show a great deal better/more grounded IMO. A saccharine ending isn't necessary. Yeah, there's a theme there, but the show doesn't necessarily hand you answers, or even act as if a perfect answer exists. It doesn't, you do the best you can, you crack a few jokes, and life goes on.

This is what I like Orville for. My complaints against it were specifically in the context of trying to fit Orville into the mental box of Trek. I don't find Orville a hopeful show but I do find it a very fun show. It is observant but ultimately cynical. It focuses on the world as it is, not the world as it could be. I like what the show is. I was just venting some frustration at what I felt were forced comparisons that had no need for existing.


Now, the show definitely has weaknesses sometimes, and yeah, the infiltration leaned on suspension of disbelief pretty hard in service to comedy. I definitely did some eyerolling once or twice as they bumbled though everything. That said, I think the modern viewer often regards a stereotypical happy ending as a waste of time, damaging to verisimilitude, or otherwise awful. Consider, old trek would likely have resolved the baby surgery plot with the heroes winning via heroic speech at the end there. It's not even just a Trek thing, a ton of old movies have the same thing. In real life, very few people utterly change their opinions because of a heartfelt speech, though, and the idea that finding the right couple of words fixes most anything kind of undercuts the stakes of conflict.

There is no show without weaknesses. When I gripe about Orville its out of that feeling of "this could be mind-blowingly good instead of just pretty fun." There is nothing wrong with it being pretty fun. Pretty fun is good place to be at.

On Old-Trek resolving baby surgery - see above. On heartfelt speech - they did that in the episode with Bortus completely abandoning his societal norms because he watched Rudolph. So Orville used that trope too. I eye-rolled hard at that. It would have been more interesting to me of Bortus's time with the Union had changed his world view and as a result he was no longer sure which path he'd take. I think that, tiny, change would have made the episode alot better.

Part of my point was that the joke supersedes the message in the episodes. I found Krill similar though I have a hard time putting my finger on the issue with that one. Again, I compare this with Sliders (the good seasons, before Rhys Davis left) where the situation of the week was normally all the commentary you'd get and if you were lucky the episode had a nice theme behind it too. This is wonderful Science Fiction - and in an interview McFarlane pretty much said that this is what he wanted to do - use Science Fiction stories to make people look at themselves again. Not with an moral message, but just to "Hold as it were, a mirror up to life." Orville does this brilliantly. I love it when it does this.


That honestly wasn't my reaction to the end. To me the question is, was returning the kids to their warmongering theocracy the right move? The smart thing is arguable, but it certainly isn't killing the children. That's just a horrifying waste. Either returning the kids back to the Krill is a good PR move to try to soften relations and give some credence to the idea the Union isn't a bunch of soulless automatons (Sorry Isaac), or if the Krill society is more resistant, then indoctrinating the kids into Union values is a better move.

Beyond hopefully avoiding having a bunch of soldiers gunning for you for obliterating their community, you get a better idea of Krill biology and psychology. And if Krill are amenable to other viewpoints (the episode seems to suggest their genocidal actions are more the result of a thin hodgepodge of religious propaganda) you gain a valuable tool for peacemaking later on. Having the same face as the enemy deliver your message is a big advantage in communication.

Now, whether or not that's what you should do is a different question, and probably more controversial than the Moclan dilemma. The final point to the episode to me was less killing potential enemies now is rational, and more, don't necessarily expect people to appreciate you for taking what you believed to be the best choice for them when it came at traumatic personal cost.

Fair enough - I honestly didn't even consider the Union taking the kids prisoner and indoctrinating them into the Union as a tool for fighting the war.

My complaint was more that A) the show has set no precedent of this event making a lasting impact on Malloy or Mercer, B) Neither appears to think they did anything wrong, C) Neither seems to have realized that they've killed two ships that certainly had kids on them before, and D) The ending seemed to be opening a the question of whether or not Mercer's Mercy would result in more death later on - which itself is an implicit suggestion that "Mercy is bad" because this is the last we hear on the subject.

If Mercer then went on to have trouble sleeping because he'd killed kids and didn't know, or because he himself is worried about how he'd do things differently I'd be much more satisfied with the story and arc. This is not intended as a knock against Orville. Sliders never really had the professor overcome his misogyny even after being on the receiving side of objectification, twice. Sliders wasn't trying to judge, only to create questions. Orville does the same. I always found Trek as trying to make judgements.

It sounds like I'm going to love Episode 7. I've skimmed comments and it sounds like the Sliders episode where they landed on an earth which handled all of its criminal justice choices by "TV-Court." Also like the part of nu-Doctor Who where the Daleks uses reality TV to control and cull humanity.

Going to watch when I can and I fully expect to love it.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Actually, if this show ever tried to be contemporary social commentary (it is) this is where they are doing that.

They discover a planet that is a near-perfect analogue to 21st-century earth. The people are all watching television and using smartphones and tablets to take photos, share videos over the internet, and up vote and down vote people.

The only way the "aliens" are doing anything different is they are up voting and down voting people, and society is built around people's social media reputation to the extent that getting too many down-votes sends you to prison. This is just a dystopic extension of today's trendy social activity. Netflix's Black Mirror sci-fi has an episode based on a society that is similarly constructed (its the first one of the third season).

The angle they take makes it more political rather than just a critique of social media and reality TV. The crew equate the way society behaves with any form of true "direct democracy."

What's I find odd is that, in addition to explaining how a representative democracy works, the crew suggests the problem is that "everybody has a voice" and tells the alien waitress that "a voice must be earned not just given."

Essentially, they are saying that truly free speech harms the political process. This abstracts out the hysterical society obsessively based around how many "likes" you can earn (and moreover avoid the other thing), to make a broader point that suggests the problem with society today is that its, too easy to get a message out there.

I've already said the message of the end is to shut down all the noise of vapid social media and reality TV. Read in the context of this episode's political message, however, it is also suggesting a more tightly controlled social dialogue is superior.

Given the current climate, of course, I suppose the message might have been aimed narrowly, to suggest that certain politicians shouldn't be paying so much attention to TV and social media.


Or it's actually a half serious overextrapolation that clearly has links to a dozen different phenomena, some of which named in the episode, including free speech, reality television, trial by media and referenda like the one on Brexit. But there's no single direct analogy being made.

Zootopia was clearly about racial relations, yet everyone who wanted it to be a direct analogy got stuck trying to determine who the black people were supposed to be. And that's one of the things that made it great, they got to play around with this stuff without having to end on a grand moral lesson that turns out to be full of holes if you examine it for five minutes.

This episode to me is the same way. In the end the girl doesn't "shut down all the noise", she merely refrains from joining in on the public lynching of a single man who's case she doesn't know enough about at this point. It's a small step, probably in some sort of right direction. But it specifically doesn't say "this is what should happen here because this is exactly what should happen in real life because the situation is exactly the same even though the one we made up is kind of silly". The episode with the generation ship did do it that way, but this one refrained from it, and to me it's the better episode of the two because of it.

[Reddish Mage]

Or it's actually a half serious overextrapolation that clearly has links to a dozen different phenomena, some of which named in the episode, including free speech, reality television, trial by media and referenda like the one on Brexit. But there's no single direct analogy being made.

There's no single analogy because there are multiple. As you mentioned, free speech, reality television, trial by media, are all explicitly mentioned. So is direct democracy. There's quite a few trends that can also be extrapolated, such as to social media presence (pretty easily) or referenda.

However, its pretty clear there is one single overall they made about this planet, and that is its a near-perfect parallel Earth.

The social trends they refer to are numerous, but the politics they critique are singular. They critique "direct democracy." (

[BannedInSchool]

This latest episode felt more like Twilight Zone to me: with the mob sentencing two guys to lobotomies for an offense they neither committed intentionally or knowingly and the indication that many in the mob didn't know or care about those details.

[Reddish Mage]

This latest episode felt more like Twilight Zone to me: with the mob sentencing two guys to lobotomies for an offense they neither committed intentionally or knowingly and the indication that many in the mob didn't know or care about those details.

By eerie coincidence, the other sci-fi show that ran a similar I referred to in my post, Netflix’s Black Mirror is a Twilight Zone copycat.

The Black Mirror episode focuses on status obsession in a society in which people’s lives are governed by a numerical rating based on how many likes and dislikes they give each other (and the status of the person doing rating). The Black Mirror episode is basically one woman’s awakening to the system and its played straight.

In Orville however we get more of outsider’s view of the social media-based status system, together with other contemporary media trends, through the Orville’s crew. The differences shows how clear Orville’s take on the trend is. The premise is of Orville puts everything in stark terms from the start is having our protagonists look at the society from the outside and recognize what’s going on.

The beginnings of each episode also shows how obvious Orville is being: “Nosedive” starts off showing the everyday life of the POV character. Orville starts off with watching the two scientists in prison, one gets killed the other brain-fried.

Orville may need some of the obviousness of the plot because Orville has its typical distractions from the plot. When the Orville gets there, they more or less immediately get into trouble because of silliness. In the end they get saved because Malloy is a 21st century reality TV (and apparently social media) aficionado. Basically, they are in a Twilight Zone-like world but they crash through it with, if anything, more than their usual amount of blundering and other comedic antics.

By now, this series seems to have to established its formula: doing more Star Trek parody amidst the backdrop of straight sci-fi circumstances with the guest crew playing straight-men.

In a sense, this is too bad, because the premise for this episode, perhaps more than any previous episode, is one that can make for truly great sci-fi. As it is, this was a better episode, its just never going to be a comfortable integration of comedy and sci-fi.

On the subject of mass rule and all important numbers determining status. Orville ratings are way up (http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/the-orville-ratings-fox-1202600964/).

[Lvl 2 Expert]

The social trends they refer to are numerous, but the politics they critique are singular. They critique "direct democracy." (

Direct democracy would be the people directly setting the rules. This is a society without much formal rules and popularity contests in place of a judiciary system. So no, I can't see this as a direct analogy about direct democracy and direct democracy alone.

[Reddish Mage]

Direct democracy would be the people directly setting the rules. This is a society without much formal rules and popularity contests in place of a judiciary system. So no, I can't see this as a direct analogy about direct democracy and direct democracy alone.

In-show the crew of the Orville make a explicit political characterization about the governing system that they say is so screwy and they call it "direct democracy."

True, this sort of direct democracy doesn't look anything like ancient Athens or any real life examples or direct democracy (or even anything that anyone would propose). Athens would have very big juries and decide the fate of the prosecuted by majority vote but direct democracy is usually defined by the people being the legislature.

Than again, Athens supposedly had an ostracism system where if enough people left anonymous pottery shards with someone's name inscribed on the street ("ostracon" means "pottery shard") that someone would be exiled. As a result, a lot of notables eventually got ostracized. Ostracism was an application of Athenian democratic tendencies, and that is pretty similar to the story being told in this episode.

So if you want to make an analogy to a contemporary political trend that isn't really direct democracy, I suppose it might be in there something. However, the show itself calls what's going on "direct democracy" so its pretty clear that's, at the very least, that's one political thing they mean to critique.

[SuperPanda]

To start off - That cold open was absolutely amazing. That reminded me the good Sliders episodes in such a good way.

The background on what the scientists did was a great set up for commentary. I really liked that background story in this episode.

I really, really, liked the straight faced Admiral chewing out Mercer. When they mentioned in the first episode that he had been an exemplary officer until his meltdown following the cheating I'd been hoping to see his continued lack of professional behavior be a source of conflict.
The pilot really gave me a Down Periscope vibe (love that movie) - of a traditionally incompetent crew being assigned to a smart but immature captain. I liked that Mercer was directly called out on that and hope it becomes part of a season long arc.

Its odd that the Union seems to have a Prime Directive like protocol which hasn't been used/referenced before. Mercer seems to either not know about it or not care about it given past episodes and actions in this one though. I hope to see more of him butting heads with HQ, ideally getting a recurring overbearing boss figure to provide comedic setups.

I felt this was the strongest episode yet. It had alot of things I liked in it and reminded me of films/shows I've liked in the past.

[DraPrime]

Its odd that the Union seems to have a Prime Directive like protocol which hasn't been used/referenced before. Mercer seems to either not know about it or not care about it given past episodes and actions in this one though. I hope to see more of him butting heads with HQ, ideally getting a recurring overbearing boss figure to provide comedic setups.

If there is anything resembling a Prime Directive on this show, it's clearly far less strict. In Star Trek violating the Prime Directive is supposed to be almost unthinkable. Yet here the Union freely has scientists interacting with a pre-warp civilization, and the moment one of their people gets into serious trouble the captain requests permission to go in and openly take him back. And when they bring someone from the planet up to the ship, there's no real discussion, implying that no one considers it to be a controversial move. At most, the Union's Prime Directive seems to be "Don't openly get involved without permission, or out of serious necessity." I suspect that if a situation like in the TNG episode "Pen Pals"
arose, where the captain is willing to abandon a pre-warp civilization to destruction in the name of non-intervention, simply wouldn't happen, and that the Union would readily step in to help. Really though, we need more episodes to fully flesh out this topic.

[Chen]

If there is anything resembling a Prime Directive on this show, it's clearly far less strict. In Star Trek violating the Prime Directive is supposed to be almost unthinkable. Yet here the Union freely has scientists interacting with a pre-warp civilization, and the moment one of their people gets into serious trouble the captain requests permission to go in and openly take him back. And when they bring someone from the planet up to the ship, there's no real discussion, implying that no one considers it to be a controversial move. At most, the Union's Prime Directive seems to be "Don't openly get involved without permission, or out of serious necessity." I suspect that if a situation like in the TNG episode "Pen Pals"
arose, where the captain is willing to abandon a pre-warp civilization to destruction in the name of non-intervention, simply wouldn't happen, and that the Union would readily step in to help. Really though, we need more episodes to fully flesh out this topic.

Uh the scenario with scientists and a pre-warp culture is almost identical to "Who Watches the Watchers" TNG episode. Troi and Riker specifically disguise themselves to go find the scientist who is observing the people. I mean hell they even beam someone aboard and show her the things to try and get her to understand that Picard isn't a god.

[DraPrime]

Uh the scenario with scientists and a pre-warp culture is almost identical to "Who Watches the Watchers" TNG episode. Troi and Riker specifically disguise themselves to go find the scientist who is observing the people. I mean hell they even beam someone aboard and show her the things to try and get her to understand that Picard isn't a god.

You're right, I'd forgotten about that episode and how they had Troi and Riker blend in with the locs. However, warping aboard one of the locals to show them that Picard wasn't a god was after there was already cultural contamination, and they'd accidentally shown the ship. At that point the cat was kinda out of the bag. In The Orville though, though one of the crew was in trouble there was no real cultural contamination going on.

[Chen]

You're right, I'd forgotten about that episode and how they had Troi and Riker blend in with the locs. However, warping aboard one of the locals to show them that Picard wasn't a god was after there was already cultural contamination, and they'd accidentally shown the ship. At that point the cat was kinda out of the bag. In The Orville though, though one of the crew was in trouble there was no real cultural contamination going on.

Well the woman they brought aboard had already seen the alien security officer too. Not as bad a violation I guess as in the TNG episode but still. Realistically they just shouldn't have brought her on the away team.

[Reddish Mage]

Uh the scenario with scientists and a pre-warp culture is almost identical to "Who Watches the Watchers" TNG episode. Troi and Riker specifically disguise themselves to go find the scientist who is observing the people. I mean hell they even beam someone aboard and show her the things to try and get her to understand that Picard isn't a god.

I think the relevant episode is TNG “First Contact.” Riker gets injured investigating a civilization on the cusp of developing warp travel, and Picard make first contact with the civilizations leader in a bid to save Riker, stepping up the timeline a little bit since the warp drive wasn’t actually finished yet.

Mercer makes a similar argument to the admiral, that this civilization was ready for first contact and that this was an opportunity. The Admiral seems to dismiss the suggestion, but it sounds like he did so mainly because he is so appalled at LaMarr’s behavior that lead to the situation in the first place.

Also here, like in “Who Watches the Watchers,” they only brought the individual aboard AFTER Alara accidentally revealed herself,.

Mercer and his crew are clearly a bunch of misfits to the Planetary Union. However, nothing we seen about Mercer’s decision making is actually over the line established in TNG, where the Prime Directive is taken very seriously.

Orville is (to the extent they are serious about things) much more serious about the rules than TOS, and I would go so far as to say that Orville’s Star Trek, the Star Trek they are basing the show on, is TNG.

[Pex]

Star Trek was serious about the rules. Kirk wasn't. :smallsmile:

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I would go so far as to say that Orville’s Star Trek, the Star Trek they are basing the show on, is TNG.

O, definitely, that's why it works.

Even the opening credits and the visuals of the first episode establish this (which is no mean feat and very well done). Everything is clean and shiny and humanity is striving to live up to its ideals. And then the main character gets cheated on by his wife. That's funny because even when you see that the setting has already been established. In Kirk's days the blue guy would have gotten a round of high fives. In Archer's time they would mostly have handled it like grownup people who have flaws. Even Sisko and Janeway could have expected this to come up far out on the frontier, and on Discovery they probably have some sort of don't ask don't tell policy about it because they have more important things to scowl about. But even just imagining the prize crew of Captain Jean-Luc Picard dealing with a plot like this is silly. If they met an alien race where people cheat they would handle it with nothing but tact and understanding, aaaaand one or two long speeches about how they should totally change their ways, but a Starfleet officer doing something like that? And from that shock, that total turn that works because of the established setting, they can then generate a very nice and honest story, because it resets your idea about how things should be.

So yes, agreed, this is Next Generation territory all the way through.

[Renegade Paladin]

If there is anything resembling a Prime Directive on this show, it's clearly far less strict. In Star Trek violating the Prime Directive is supposed to be almost unthinkable. Yet here the Union freely has scientists interacting with a pre-warp civilization, and the moment one of their people gets into serious trouble the captain requests permission to go in and openly take him back. And when they bring someone from the planet up to the ship, there's no real discussion, implying that no one considers it to be a controversial move. At most, the Union's Prime Directive seems to be "Don't openly get involved without permission, or out of serious necessity." I suspect that if a situation like in the TNG episode "Pen Pals"
arose, where the captain is willing to abandon a pre-warp civilization to destruction in the name of non-intervention, simply wouldn't happen, and that the Union would readily step in to help. Really though, we need more episodes to fully flesh out this topic.

If the Stars Should Appear already fleshed out this topic. They clearly will not abandon a pre-warp civilization to destruction, because they already refused to do that once.

[russdm]

From the reading of this show, it feels to me like the first seasons of TNG with Control Freak Roddenberry in charge, the holier than thou bits.

Or I am just reading that because it was made by Seth McFarlane. I could see somebody like Seth Green (the one in Austin Powers) making a show like this, but seriously Seth McFarlane? Master of Family Guy and SouthPark? (Did he do southpark?)

It all comes across as a cheesy version of a parody of Trek, but not really tongue in cheek like how Galaxy Quest was.

Although, I don't know. As soon as I heard, made by Seth McFarlane, I figured it wouldn't be worth watching. I never liked Family Guy or South Park.

[Olinser]

From the reading of this show, it feels to me like the first seasons of TNG with Control Freak Roddenberry in charge, the holier than thou bits.

Or I am just reading that because it was made by Seth McFarlane. I could see somebody like Seth Green (the one in Austin Powers) making a show like this, but seriously Seth McFarlane? Master of Family Guy and SouthPark? (Did he do southpark?)

It all comes across as a cheesy version of a parody of Trek, but not really tongue in cheek like how Galaxy Quest was.

Although, I don't know. As soon as I heard, made by Seth McFarlane, I figured it wouldn't be worth watching. I never liked Family Guy or South Park.

No, he had nothing to do with South Park, which is a show superior in basically every way to Family Guy.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Although, I don't know. As soon as I heard, made by Seth McFarlane, I figured it wouldn't be worth watching. I never liked Family Guy.

I had kind of the same reaction. "Seth McFarlane, that's one of those minor Hollywood celebrities who is supposed to be funny right, like Ben Stiller or Adam Sandler*?" Luckily by the time I saw that name I was already watching the opening credits. I don't know how they did it, but The Orville is a really clever show that genuinely finds unexplored corners in the Star Trek setting. Half the time it completely forgets to be a parody, and it works. Typically you'd expect comedians to stop making good shows ones they get a budget and the studio wants to get involved, but in this case the studio must have sent some amazing people because the humor gets nowhere near "and now a random reference lulz" Family Guy. Honestly I'm currently edging towards The Orville as the better Star Trek show between it and Discovery (and I like Discovery), although the long term arcs could make up for that.

I do like South Park though, but that's not very similar to The Orville either.

*He did have Little Nicky though, I guess that was a little bit like his Orville, as flawed as it still is.

[Renegade Paladin]

South Park is the work of Trey Parker and Matt Stone; MacFarlane has nothing to do with it.

In other news, the show has been renewed for a second season. :smallbiggrin:

[BannedInSchool]

Huh, this latest episode would have been a pretty standard character-building episode of TNG, but better, IMO. Little doubt they'd live happily ever after, but I was sucked-in to it being important to the characters.

[Reddish Mage]

Huh, this latest episode would have been a pretty standard character-building episode of TNG, but better, IMO. Little doubt they'd live happily ever after, but I was sucked-in to it being important to the characters.

Indeed, this episode manages to be Orville but at the same time the humor and incompetence doesn’t distract from the story but adds to it.


Honestly I'm currently edging towards The Orville as the better Star Trek show between it and Discovery (and I like Discovery), although the long term arcs could make up for that.

Isn’t that a bit like saying “I like Big Macs and filet mignon but I’m leaning towards Big Macs being the better of the two?”

Orville might be getting better but it is definitely lacking the nuance, attention to detail, emotional depth Discovery has.

[Daer]

Seems orville has got renewed for second season.
http://deadline.com/2017/11/the-orville-renewed-for-season-2-fox-seth-macfarlane-1202200369/
Great news have really enjoyed it this far.

[Spacewolf]

Quite liked the episode but I have to admit it was inspite of disliking the Doctor character more and more.

[SuperPanda]

I honestly never expected to get an episode focused on the Doctor - she seemed very much the odd duck out of everyone in the cast. In most episodes she seems like an actual professional on the cast and her role in the pilot suggesting that she is on the Orville specifically because she expect Mercer to melt down and need help. I fully expected her to be more of a obstacle than an ally in most episodes. I love that the actress seems to give the role 110% and the character has managed to be funny without ever feeling like she'd be out of place in an actual Trek show.

Issac on the other hand felt like a perfect comedic straight-man to the Orville's crew of misfits along with the added groan worthy moments of him thinking that they represent the best of humanity. He never felt like he didn't belong with the crew to me, but he was easily the best part of the "Real" crew in my mind. Issac is pretty much Spock/Data/The Doctor/7of9/Michael Burnam in that he's the "logical" and "advanced" crew-member who needs to learn to be more human to progress.

So with these two being pretty much my favorite characters on the show you can guess that I loved the episode. It nicely served up the same dish I've eaten many times before. There weren't any real surprise that I really liked it. Heck It even actually sold the Union/Federation was a good place.

Most of the humor worked "You better not get us lost" was funny because of the drama underpinning it. The "Soy sauce" into "We gotta get better people" was wonderful - and the exact humor I expected from the premise of the show. Issac's deadpan is the most reliably funny part of the show for me.

About the only thing which felt off was the kindnap/captor story ending with the captor's death. I would expect the other shows to end with that person stunned or knocked out rather than dead - or to have him become explicitly evil before being killed - or to have him reveal he'd been a good person that they misjudged. I was expecting that to have some sort of toll/cost/or twist. This only felt off for me because literally everything else felt like it belonged in an actual Trek show and even this wasn't completely out of place - just less developed than I'd have expected.



Isn’t that a bit like saying “I like Big Macs and filet mignon but I’m leaning towards Big Macs being the better of the two?”

Orville might be getting better but it is definitely lacking the nuance, attention to detail, emotional depth Discovery has.

I think a better way to say it would be:

If Sci-Fi is food containing beef and Star Trek in particular are types of beef sandwhich:

TNG was a 50's dinner cheeseburger. Juicy meat, cooked fresh. Crisp fresh veggies, a good balance of sauce. (served hot) (I'm not going to go through each Trek and assign it a type of sandwich to serve the metaphor but for easy purposes, TOS was not a burger, Voy and ENT were close enough to burgers that you wouldn't be upset by someone calling them a burger even if it was a mistake, and DS9 was something served cold - you know, because it had a darker tone/theme than the others).

Orville is a pretty good - for fast food - burger. (Served hot)

Discovery is a fancy foodie sub sandwich. Artisian bread, Kale, homemade pickles, special cheeses, thinly sliced Filet Mingon steak... you get the idea. (Served cold)

If you are really wanting a burger than that fancy sandwich won't satisfy that urge. I've also known people who feel that making a humble sandwich too fancy is the height of stupidity because it is a sandwich. Fancy food is wonderful but serves a different purpose than a sandwich does.

This specific episode? It could drop into almost any Trek series without much changing:
You could have dropped this episode into Voyager without much trouble: Seven of Nine is traveling with Captian Janeway to a planet to search for (Plot point A). On arriving on the surface they find two children with an injured/hurt parent. The promise to help before being seperated in a (Plot point B -event). Janeway is held captive. The ship can't interfere because (Plot point C). Seven of Nine is left helping the kids and rediscovering part of her humanity. Chakotay would be perfect for the role I gave Janeway - but his actor somehow came off more emotionless than Issac does.

It Could have been dropped into Enterprise without much trouble (Take above, replace Seven of Nine with T'pol and Janeway with Trip).

It could work in TOS with Spock replacing seven - but I really can't think of anyone in the TOS cast who'd be maternal/paternal to a group of alien kids like that. Kirk was heroic and protective, but not read them bedtime stories type. Bones had no bedside manner, its why we love him. Sulu, Uhura, Checkov?.

In DS9 its Kira and Garak transporting some lost Cardassian kids... (My first idea was Odo and Quark with Quark wanting to exploit/sell the kids and Odo making sure he doesn't - only to wind up playing babysitter while Quark is kidnapped and escapes by winning himself from his captor at cards... the result was nothing like this episode but damn to I want to watch that now).

It could have been dropped into TNG without much trouble: Season 2 - Data and Doctor Polauski are transporting some sick children to a space station for medical care when (Plot point) disaster strikes - nearly everything else plays out the same as in this episode...

Honestly I could have seen something like this happening before episode 6 of Discovery (if it was a bit more episodic) with Michael Burnam playing the 7 of Nine roll and Tilly the Janeway. It would be more fun to get this kind of episode in Discovery season 2 and have it roles reverse with the kids needing to help Saru grow up. I could see it happening there, but just not now.


VOY - Janeway, having been deprived of coffee, manages to wound her captor and escape. Later she returns with the cure and entrusts it to that person - so they won't be lonely anymore.

ENT - Trip charms/annoys the person into helping by promising to use the ship's medical lab to find a cure. The person likely gets dramatically killed during the rush at the end and he kicks himself for it. The idea that the captor wants physical companionship would be played up, possibly even a bit for comedy, because Trips a guy and this somehow makes it funny.

TOS - really depends on who goes with Spock, but assuming it's Kirk he seduces his captor who then gets killed by the real monsters because she's wearing red. The captor wanting Kirk for physical companionship would be overt and she'd also be good looking but have scary ugly goons too.

TNG - Polauski manages to knock out her captor and makes sure he's still okay. Episode happens normally until the end when they come back to take her prisoner again. Picard beams down to get them, interceding in the standoff between an armed Data and armed kidnapper and makes a rousing speech.

Discovery - There would be far more overt suggestions at the captor's darker motives with possibly an attempt to exert some of those against Burnam during the final escape. Burnam would show guilt over killing the person and be told that she did the right thing. The following week we'd learn the dead guy was actually a pretty good father and Lorca would roll his eyes at this every bit as hard as he did at having to deal with an endangered space whale.

What I'm saying is this episode by itself was full Trek. (Discovery episode 7 was too). I love having two different tasty sandwiches whenever I'm in the mood for one.

[BannedInSchool]

Regarding the situation with the natives on the planet: I'm not sure if they didn't develop it in the script because they had no ideas, it got cut in editing for the character stuff, or it was a choice to assume the setting and focus on the characters in a more sitcom-like manner from the start. And then I don't know if my uncertainty in that is from them just not doing a good job at communicating the last, or the expectations built-up from decades of Trek "planet of the week" episodes. But, yeah, I was thinking they'd resolve that with something more than *stab*stab*bang*.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Isn’t that a bit like saying “I like Big Macs and filet mignon but I’m leaning towards Big Macs being the better of the two?”

Orville might be getting better but it is definitely lacking the nuance, attention to detail, emotional depth Discovery has.

I disagree. Discovery yells about its emotions loudly, but they don't really play more of a role in the story than in The Orville. In the latest episode we got a look at parental feelings, captor-captive relationships, people in desperate situations (admittedly an extremely garden variety "humans are the real monsters" with only a bit of afterthought but the other two points stand). There's a lot sincerity in The Orville. They just get there through a more sitcommy setup, which throws people off the scent. And a lot of comedies lack the depth of most dramas, a lot of comedies in fact plain up suck partially because of this, and most of the exceptions are children's animated movies. Which is why I absolutely love so many of those. The Orville seems to want to be good comedy.

To me there's nothing low or bad or uncultured about comedy. The fact that Shakespeare is still the ultimate example of high culture despite a career build on your mom jokes and fart sketches serves to underline more people think like that. (That kind of comedy is easier on stage than on film though, I've co-created a few semi-decent plays myself, enough sillyness and a live audience that wants to laugh go a long way.) But comedy needs to be done well, especially if you want any depth. Drama seems a bit harder to mess up, horror is pretty easy and action basically can't go wrong. Which is how Steven Seagal can pump out decently entertaining stretches of 90 minutes of time to kill by varying a few minor plot points and side characters and just doing his thing some more, he could never do that in comedy. It's kind of weird how pretty much the most basic story type is so hard to get right.

[SuperPanda]

I disagree. Discovery yells about its emotions loudly, but they don't really play more of a role in the story than in The Orville.

First - 100% disagree. I don't think I could disagree more. Orville is not character driven in any meaningful sense. Discovery is far more character driven than plot driven (with the exception of epsiode 7).



To me there's nothing low or bad or uncultured about comedy. The fact that Shakespeare is still the ultimate example of high culture despite a career build on your mom jokes and fart sketches serves to underline more people think like that. (That kind of comedy is easier on stage than on film though, I've co-created a few semi-decent plays myself, enough sillyness and a live audience that wants to laugh go a long way.) But comedy needs to be done well, especially if you want any depth. Drama seems a bit harder to mess up, horror is pretty easy and action basically can't go wrong. Which is how Steven Seagal can pump out decently entertaining stretches of 90 minutes of time to kill by varying a few minor plot points and side characters and just doing his thing some more, he could never do that in comedy. It's kind of weird how pretty much the most basic story type is so hard to get right.

TL:DR: There is a huge variety of comedy. There is such a thing as "low, bad or uncultured" comedy - though the same is true for every genre. No one worth listening too lumps an entire genre like that.

Comedy, Drama, Horror, and Action all serve different purposes. The most common modern meanings of the terms are:
Comedy - a film which makes people laugh through jokes, sight gags, and similar techniques.
Drama - a film which relies on tension to tell a story - most often making the audience uncomfortable through its subject matter.
Horror - a film which aims to frighten people, providing an adrenaline rush. Most often using gore, jump scares, and dark lighting.
Action - a film for the audience to live out an escapist power fantasy through - most often a demonstration of impressive special effects and stunts.

These meanings aren't really useful because a good Comedy will make the audience cry (an uncomfortable feeling for most) and then later make them legitimately scared (use of tension). In other words - a good comedy must also be a good drama. Guardians of the Galaxy 2 is an action film, a comedy film, a Sci-Fi/Fantasy Film, and a drama all rolled into one.

So lets go back to these genres and look at their purpose.

Comedy has not, historically, been about making people laugh. It has been about reaffirming group identity. A great deal of humor comes from saying what other people are aware of but wouldn't expect anyone to actually say. Yogurt talking about merchandising is a classic example. The audience is included in the joke while the characters are confused. "We" reaffirm ourselves through this shared awareness.

Another type of humor comes from breaking our sense of norms in a way which "We" know to be inappropriate. Yapphit forming a suggestive shape to try to woo the doctor or the bridge discussion of where Bortus's egg came from. Its not that these things seem unrealistic to us - its that we know they aren't something "a good person" is suppose to say/do in that moment. The shock of the rules broken makes us briefly uncomfortable which results in a smile/blush/laugh. - This type of humor seldom actually works to subvert societal expectations - instead it gives people an outlet to vent frustrations while reinforcing the norm (because it would not be funny anymore if it stopped being abnormal).

Comedy can be very informative and very very smart. What it is not good at though is inciting change. Comedy isn't often used as a tool to provoke deep introspection or make you really challenge your preconceptions - if it succeeded in doing that it would stop being funny.

The best example I can think of is the master's own "A Modest Proposal." The three layered text is very amusing once you dive into it. From the absolutely absurd premise delivered in absolute deadpan to the soul-crushingly vivid descriptions of what Swift wanted to see changed. On first reading some will miss the "joke" and get angry at the essay instead of the problems which inspired it. Others will point and laugh at those "idiots" thinking the whole thing is a clever joke on its own. Others still will notice the factoids buried in it, connect them to the real world, notice that the "Failed proposals" the speaker bemoans as having been rejected were all real and discarded as being too inconvenient... and by the time you are reading at that level there is nothing funny about the essay anymore. Its a seething rant against naked evil delivered as a back-handed comedy sketch.


In the latest episode we got a look at parental feelings, captor-captive relationships, people in desperate situations (admittedly an extremely garden variety "humans are the real monsters" with only a bit of afterthought but the other two points stand). There's a lot sincerity in The Orville. They just get there through a more sitcommy setup, which throws people off the scent. And a lot of comedies lack the depth of most dramas, a lot of comedies in fact plain up suck partially because of this, and most of the exceptions are children's animated movies. Which is why I absolutely love so many of those. The Orville seems to want to be good comedy.

Parental Feelings - Both discovery and Orville have had episodes about this now. Orville's handled the cliches of "bickering kids" "stressed single mother" "last thing I said to (pronoun) was (bad word/phrase here)" - It was a tried and true story the whole way through. Well told, but nothing even slightly new. Discovery handled a arrogant father who sought to use his children to prove himself, failed his child, and then tried to convince the child they had failed him to hide his shame - and the fallout it did to her. Is it completely new? No - but it also hasn't been done to death.

Captor-Captive Relationship - Did we really? He rescues her, gives her (very hard to come by) food. Tries to tend to her wounds. Goes to get her medicine after she points out that he's lonely. She kills him. We saw her going from afraid of him to tricking him to killing him. We see him go from concerned for her, to concerned for her, to shocked and angry that she's trying to kill him.

Sincerity - I think what you mean here is that the characters in Orville feel real. McFarlane himself said that his goal was to take the fantastic dressings of Sci-Fi stories and adventures and make them feel like they were happening in the lives of people in the current day. To ground them in our current understanding of the world. That is why Mercer has to work with his ex-wife and why there are so many pop-culture references and cliches. I think he's doing exactly what he set out to do (which is a compliment in every sense).

He isn't trying to make Orville deep, he wants it to be wide enough to touch alot of topics and "grounded" enough in today that it is accessible to a very wide audience. This is why I think Reddish Mage likened it to fast food (and why I used the same metaphor but thought it was a high quality fast food). Its very good at what it does - but if I want to dig into the motivations of the characters, the themes of the story - all that stuff which people like me (a Literature teacher) think of as storytelling "art" ... Orville will leave me hungry more often than not. It isn't intended for that. This doesn't make it bad. Discovery gives me alot to chew on - heck I've started picking up on subtext in camera techniques there. I'd never expect Orville to use anything near that subtle because it is not that type of show. I grumble that Rudolph was a major plot point in Orville, it was funny but stupid. I would be bloody furious if Discovery did the same thing.

Orville gives me enough subversion of the cliches and norms to feel fresh. It is light hearted enough to never need to take itself seriously. It is serious enough that I can invest in the tension of the episodes. This is not an easy balance to keep (and Orville itself often stumbles trying to keep it). Its a wonderful little show.

That said, it is what it is and should be measured as such. Orville is not yet trying to be both high Drama and Low comedy (Shakespeare manages to be both without compromising either for the other - that's why he's considered the master). Its certainly better than alot of stuff out there.

[MikelaC1]

definitely lacking the nuance, attention to detail, emotional depth Discovery has.

Like the attention to detail they made in making their tech compatible with what level it should be...ie "behind" both TNG and original.

[Tyndmyr]

Quite liked the episode but I have to admit it was inspite of disliking the Doctor character more and more.

I actually really liked her character before this episode, but yeah, this kind of undercut her a fair bit. She's really effective/sane/competent in her professional life, seemed...kind of odd for her to be so out of touch with the kids, in that way? I mean, sure, being good in one area doesn't translate to being good in all other areas, but she is normally pretty insightful, it seems odd for her to not realize that she's not effectively managing her children? It just seems like an odd way in which to portray her as having a shortcoming.

I do think she was justified in her actions taken to free herself, though. Won't go further into it without spoiler tags, but it's pretty clear that it's her only remaining option as she can see it, and the show has repeatedly shown that good people sometimes end up in a situation in which all the options have problems.

[Chen]

I do think she was justified in her actions taken to free herself, though. Won't go further into it without spoiler tags, but it's pretty clear that it's her only remaining option as she can see it, and the show has repeatedly shown that good people sometimes end up in a situation in which all the options have problems.

Not sure it was intentional but the hypocrisy of her telling her son "We don't kill" after she just killed two people was something both me and my wife caught. She had no real choice (at least for the second one) but still. She probably could have worked a bit harder on the first one too, it felt rushed, but that might be because its only a 45 min show.

[Pex]

I have enough screaming whiny bratty kids on the train going to and from work. I refuse to watch an hour episode of it.

[BannedInSchool]

Hmm, don't think there was anything I really disliked in this episode. I think I anticipated most of the major plot developments, at least in broad stokes, but then I've watched Star Trek, heh. There were some laughs, and even right now I'm tickled just by the concept of an Issac reaction shot. 8

[BannedInSchool]

Oh, thought of some specifics to comment on:

1. Another anti-Trek resolution to a problem. Dosing your visiting delegations with mind-affecting drugs is a Federation no-no, I'd wager.

2. Blue Man could be criticized for his blase attitude about his effect on people, but if that's just how it works on his planet then it may be an understandable blind-spot for them. You meet, you bone,
then you either it works out or it doesn't. Such is life.

[thompur]

As far as I'm concerned, The Orville is 9 for 9.
Despite the utter predictability of the latest episode, and the "homage" to the classic Star Trek episodes "The Naked Time", and "This Side of Paradise", I found it funny and insightful. I can't wait for the next one.
Officially my favorite show right now!

[dps]

Consider, old trek would likely have resolved the baby surgery plot with the heroes winning via heroic speech at the end there.


Oddly, TNG was sometimes worse about doing that than TOS.

[Reddish Mage]

Oh, thought of some specifics to comment on:

1. Another anti-Trek resolution to a problem. Dosing your visiting delegations with mind-affecting drugs is a Federation no-no, I'd wager.

2. Blue Man could be criticized for his blase attitude about his effect on people, but if that's just how it works on his planet then it may be an understandable blind-spot for them. You meet, you bone,
then you either it works out or it doesn't. Such is life.


As far as I'm concerned, The Orville is 9 for 9.
Despite the utter predictability of the latest episode, and the "homage" to the classic Star Trek episodes "The Naked Time", and "This Side of Paradise", I found it funny and insightful. I can't wait for the next one.
Officially my favorite show right now!

Actually I think the relevant episode is TNG "Lonely Among Us (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonely_Among_Us)." Picard makes peace between reptiles and ape peoples, also stuff happens because crew-members get possessed.

I thought this show was getting better and more balanced, with the last two episodes managing to raise the overall level of the show. This episode however, I think is a turn in the wrong direction.

It was overall predictable, with the artifact showing the two very different looking aliens were actually one people. Not that this actually settled anything in the end, because that plot gets utterly derailed by the boy in blue and what he brought with him.

The love-pheromes in the air had the potential for a great deal of silliness (and it does get silly) but things were nowhere near as silly and random as episodes like "The Naked Time" and "This Side of Paradise." Meanwhile, the blue alien's bafflement at the notion he is doing something wrong is never contradicted by the crew and the episode.

Indeed, they whip up a love-drug concoction to end the conflict, after it had already spiraled into a fleet battle. This might work as juvenile comedy but the lesson of the day endings in Orville have previously carried a more serious-minded message.

The result implicitly confirms that blue guy's attitude towards sex is well-adjusted and there is nothing wrong that blue guy goes around drugging people to have sex with him. They even hand-wave away the potentially serious problem of what is going to happen when the pheromones wear off to the alien diplomats in a few days.

[Fairfieldfencer]

For me, this show is a step in the right direction. I always felt Star Trek characters, while interesting, never felt quite as human as a lot of other shows could pull off. Always maintained themselves too well. For the captain of a ship, this works well, but even then, you like to see flaws so you get the sense these guys can screw up. I can't see Tom Cruise ever getting shot by a random alien, but Seth MacFarlane? Definitely.

To me, this show is a 3 man team; a 14 year old Star Trek super fan and fanfiction writer, his 16 year old sister who is very into politics and got into Star Trek after he pointed out the social commentary to her, and his 18-21 old brother who knocks back 3 beers once he walks in the door, blurts out a few dirty jokes the 14 year old thinks are funny, and occasionally comes out with a good zinger.

[Tyndmyr]

Not sure it was intentional but the hypocrisy of her telling her son "We don't kill" after she just killed two people was something both me and my wife caught. She had no real choice (at least for the second one) but still. She probably could have worked a bit harder on the first one too, it felt rushed, but that might be because its only a 45 min show.

There is indeed some conflict there. I *think* the show is trying to tell us that she'd rather not kill, and had no other option against her captor, but the framing of it seemed just a shade off.

This last episode I was unfortunately quite unhappy with. They're relying very heavily on the "humor" of the captain/XO working with each other despite the sleeping around thing. It gets more and more cringey the more it takes center stage.

The resolution is ethically pretty shaky, I think, and I have my doubts that it'd end up being excused by the convenient scientific discovery(which wasn't really surprising at all). I see no reason why the involved parties wouldn't go back to hating each other, and both hating the Federation to boot.

I also feel as if the Federation apparently keeps really, really poor records regarding the races that make up, yknow, it. Bartok's culture not being known, okay, one off sure, that's explainable. Issac's culture not being well integrated....well, that's explained by him literally being put here to overcome that. Still okay. But the blue race(I forget the name, despite it being said on screen a few times) is pretty clearly decently known-ish, and not wholly new to the federation, yet somehow nobody knows about a fairly common thing they all do?

In actual plot, this episode ends up being super weak, and also very predictable, all in the service of adding more cringe humor.

[BannedInSchool]

2017-11-16:
Obviously from the lack of discussion not too much to discuss, but again I felt it was important to the characters in the bookends. Whether or not the pieces of the puzzle were too easy to put together I'll acknowledge that the episode did put them out there, which is nicer than a surprise solution to the mystery that just doesn't contradict anything.

(Gee, thanks, Dad. Just because I'm slow doesn't mean I can't get a degree. :smalltongue: )

[Mando Knight]

To me, this show is a 3 man team; a 14 year old Star Trek super fan and fanfiction writer, his 16 year old sister who is very into politics and got into Star Trek after he pointed out the social commentary to her, and his 18-21 old brother who knocks back 3 beers once he walks in the door, blurts out a few dirty jokes the 14 year old thinks are funny, and occasionally comes out with a good zinger.

Or in short, Seth MacFarlane.

[Renegade Paladin]

Man. This week's episode is just freaking me out, like to the degree where I'm in the last ten minutes and thinking I should stop and finish it in the morning. :smalleek:

[Pex]

Nicely done. They had me believing it was real until Malloy got eaten. As much I wished that was real metalogic told me he wouldn't be truly dead. The crew disappearing confirmed it. I did appreciate the Captain believing upfront the clown was real at the time I thought what was happening was.

[Tyndmyr]

Pretty decent episode. Caught on to what was happening about halfway through, because it was the only reasonable explanation, but seemed like a sound episode all the same.

If, like me, you greatly dislike spiders, you may wish to skip certain portions in roughly the middle of the episode.

[Renegade Paladin]

Pretty decent episode. Caught on to what was happening about halfway through, because it was the only reasonable explanation, but seemed like a sound episode all the same.

The missing link was the short term memory wipe. I was discarding that option until Lt. Malloy got eaten because surely she'd know she went into the holodeck.

[BannedInSchool]

Huh, thought they were on a break because last week was a rerun, but back with a new episode.

2017-11-30 S1E11 Mostly live reactions:

Opening: Either I'm acclimating to the humor or they're getting better at it. The bit in sickbay was uncomfortable and gross, but it was supposed to be. Poor Bortus. Worf would have insisted he slice open his own belly.

First Segment: Again looking like the real A plot is the one about the characters, not the anomaly of the week. It's also a little odd having the character bits being important to the characters and not just invented to move them around like game pieces or to fill time, as much as it's TNG-like otherwise.

Second Segment: Okay, laughing at the petting of the furry animal.
That's making the anomaly look like a weapon of some kind.

Third Segment: I am so with him on not wanting to go through the doorway. Look, man, I'd like to solve problems but don't put me in charge.

Fourth Segment: Guessing someone read Flatland. I'm also not happy with losing a dimension having so little effect on molecules that they stay together with only being a little roughed-up.

Fifth Segment: Did not see that complication coming, getting trapped there.

To the end: Not much to say. The character stories wrapped up and they all lived happily ever after. Seemed to be missing a line from Yaphit, though.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Only two episodes left for this season. I have to remember to look to see what's replacing this and Gifted for the spring.

[Chen]

Only two episodes left for this season. I have to remember to look to see what's replacing this and Gifted for the spring.

No word on The Gifted yet but The Orville is already renewed for a second season

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, but that's next year. And they didn't even consider a backhalf, either.

[Renegade Paladin]

There's only one episode left this season. They moved one of the planned thirteen to the second season after the show got renewed.

It was kind of strange that the Krill gave up so quickly, though maybe they just recovered their rifles and left without knowing the Union was ever there if their sensors aren't as good as the Orville's (which is possible, as it's an exploration vessel). Also, it'll cause all KINDS of professional difficulties if Captain Mercer and Commander Grayson get back together. Just sayin'. :smalltongue:

[Pex]

When I saw the bratty kids I had feelings of doom they'd be central the story. Hooray for at least they just had their scene and were never heard from again. They're more annoying than Malloy. Speaking of, while unfortunately he still exists on the show I have noticed he has not been central to the plot since the spy mission. My enjoyment of the show has not coincidentally increased. I hope this trend continues.

[Reddish Mage]

Also, it'll cause all KINDS of professional difficulties if Captain Mercer and Commander Grayson get back together. Just sayin'. :smalltongue:

Given the mood of the show, I’m sure they have no problems going there if they ever work out their differences (or the right pheromones manage to get aboard). I think this would be perfect for the show. Right now the rapport between the two is strained and I think they’ve exhausted what’s funny about the relationship. The show can’t just play it straight as exes that work together. This show is overdue for a badly-done take on workplace sex scandals.

[BannedInSchool]

Warning: The title of this latest episode (2017-12-07) is spoilery, so maybe avoiding reading it will add some surprise.

[Reddish Mage]

So they get together one night, change the destiny of an entire planet's civilization, and decide that they are better off apart so they can be professional. I am disappointed they didn't do more with the romance. Not to say I think the Mercer/Grayson dynamic is going to remain stable.

I also noticed a lack of too many jokes once the story picked up steam. Most of them occurred early on, with Captain Mercer showing us again and again how extremely awkward he can be.

As a serious show, the plots are just low-brow versions of classic Star Trek plots, executed in a very breezy manner. This one was also quite predictable. The show shines in episodes where the character's unique flaws determine the contours of the entire episode. Like the one on the Doctor Finn's kids ("into the fold"), or Alara ("Firestorm"), or even the last episode with LaMarr. Orveille is at its best when the unique dysfunctions and talents of the crew contribute to the story itself.

Getting hungover and blundering into becoming God doesn't count.

[MikelaC1]

If you reverse engineer this planets time line back, it rapidly becomes untenable.

[Pex]

Seth McFarlane's anti-religion bias shines through. I let the one liner crack in the Krill spy episode go. For this episode I saw where they were going, but it was ok. It combined the Picard as god episode of Star Trek The Next Generation with the accelerated planet of time of Voyager. I was enjoying the episode for the episode's sake. It was all fine and dandy. However, when they got to the "Catholic" Pope they crossed the line. It was no longer just a tv show. They broke the fourth wall in an insulting way. I stopped watching. This one incident won't make me stop watching The Orville, but it has its first strike.

Obligatory: I am not Catholic.

[Renegade Paladin]

Seth McFarlane's anti-religion bias shines through. I let the one liner crack in the Krill spy episode go. For this episode I saw where they were going, but it was ok. It combined the Picard as god episode of Star Trek The Next Generation with the accelerated planet of time of Voyager. I was enjoying the episode for the episode's sake. It was all fine and dandy. However, when they got to the "Catholic" Pope they crossed the line. It was no longer just a tv show. They broke the fourth wall in an insulting way. I stopped watching. This one incident won't make me stop watching The Orville, but it has its first strike.

Obligatory: I am not Catholic.

Well, for your edification: The "Pope" decided to repudiate the religion, but before he could, the "cardinal" assassinated him. The planet continued as before, and the world came out in the 21st century with religion in public school debates and coverage of sectarian strife in their Middle East analogue on their television signals. They decided to leave Isaac behind on the planet to try for a second fix because he doesn't age, and the episode ends with his return by a culture on technological par with or slightly ahead of the Union.

[Reddish Mage]

I can't help but notice that Christianity drawn on whenever a sci-fi, or even fantasy, show or book wants to show religion (with the exception of some very vaguely defined paganism). Whether its the aesthetics, the tenants of the religion, history, iconography, whatever. That includes such classics as Planet of the Apes. Even the Krill ceremony was set up in a space with a raised space in back, pews in front, and a big book on a dais to read. It goes back to at least Asimov's works and probably further. Your offense may be a valid expression of your feelings of the material, but I would like to point out Orville is hardly a novel offender of the genre.

[Renegade Paladin]

I suspect because it's what most of the target audience will readily be able to recognize as general religious trappings. After all, most sci-fi is written for an American audience.

[Pex]

I'm well aware The Orville is not the first to engage in anti-religion bigotry. Star Trek that's not The Original Series is a major offender. At least in Star Trek there was no contempt. (Ok, Janeway contempted.) Vedec/Kai Wynn was a Villain who used religion as her weapon. The religion itself was respected. Seth McFarlane wrote this episode. I blame him rather than the concept of The Orville.

I give beautiful contrast to Bayblon 5. There's a science fiction show that had great respect for religion, including Earth. How they showed Earth's dominant religion, namely a representative line of all of them, was brilliant. Ivanova sitting Shiva (Judaism) was also well done.

In another instance, I think it was in an episode of The Outer Limits reboot about an exploration vessel visiting a planet whose star had gone nova. There were remnants of a civilization that perished. A priest was among the crew, and he needed to be consoled. Based on calculations, the light of the nova had reached Earth at the time of the birth of Jesus. Namely, the light in the sky the Wise Men saw was the nova. The priest was upset that his faith started at the cost of this alien civilization. Faith won out at the thought of the Righteousness of the civilization to have played their important role.

[thompur]

I'm well aware The Orville is not the first to engage in anti-religion bigotry. Star Trek that's not The Original Series is a major offender. At least in Star Trek there was no contempt. (Ok, Janeway contempted.) Vedec/Kai Wynn was a Villain who used religion as her weapon. The religion itself was respected. Seth McFarlane wrote this episode. I blame him rather than the concept of The Orville.

I give beautiful contrast to Bayblon 5. There's a science fiction show that had great respect for religion, including Earth. How they showed Earth's dominant religion, namely a representative line of all of them, was brilliant. Ivanova sitting Shiva (Judaism) was also well done.

In another instance, I think it was in an episode of The Outer Limits reboot about an exploration vessel visiting a planet whose star had gone nova. There were remnants of a civilization that perished. A priest was among the crew, and he needed to be consoled. Based on calculations, the light of the nova had reached Earth at the time of the birth of Jesus. Namely, the light in the sky the Wise Men saw was the nova. The priest was upset that his faith started at the cost of this alien civilization. Faith won out at the thought of the Righteousness of the civilization to have played their important role.

That was based on a short story by Larry Niven entitled "The Star". I remember watching that episode. I later read the story and was impressed by how "faithful" the show was to the book.