Saint template in Eberron

[Clistenes]

In the sourcebook Sharn, City of Towers, there is a female gnome expert devoted to Boldrei who has become a Saint (http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/daca).

Daca certainly IS devoted, and has taken a bunch of Exalted Feats Vows, but she is no priest, and it doesn't seem she has done anything to help others besides offering advice.

I think her vows and her time on the pedestal count as the "great sacrifice" required to take the Saint template, though I don't think any of that helps others much; there must be hundreds of people in Sharn who have done more to help others, doing charity or healing them...

So, what do you think is the source of her Saint template? Is a product of her own faith? A product of the faith people has in her
Sainthood? A reward of Boldrei? A mix of faith and the influence of the Syrania manifest zone?

[Sagetim]

It could simply be that her advice has helped people better than any of the more direct methods that others are using. Sure, cure wounds will stop someone from bleeding out, but listening to someone who is in emotional turmoil and offering them advice can change the course of their life. It seems to me that most players, at least, take cure wounds for granted and think little to nothing of it (and the system is built to encourage that), so I think you might be discounting the long term impact that advice can have on people's lives.

You can cast cure wounds on people, day in, day out, and never change anyone's life (as in, they will simply continue being the same person after the curing of the wound as they were before), while advice from a trusted source tends to be taken to heart and carried along with a person all throughout their life.

So I think her advice is, in fact, the reason she has the Saint template. You don't have to be a Big Damn Hero to be a hero to people, to change their lives, or to be considered saintly (which generally doesn't get associated with violence, at least in the real world).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Sagetim gives a good motivation, for Boldrei or the people, whichever grants sainthood. It's sentimental, which is an important facet of heroic storytelling. For a cynical world, motivate Boldrei cosmopolitically (that's the politics of the cosmos, not the drink or the magazine). He needed a saint in or near Sharn, so the next likely canditate to come along got the job. Or maybe the council of [good] deities had to throw Boldrei a bone, because he hadn't had a saint in a while. You have to decide what influence a saint grants to a deity, and what it means, politically, to (a) be made a saint, and (b) be worshiped by a saint.

[Cruiser1]

So, what do you think is the source of her Saint template?
Daca had a life before climbing the pillar. She could have earned the Saint template by a more traditional sacrifice beforehand.

[Clistenes]

Daca had a life before climbing the pillar. She could have earned the Saint template by a more traditional sacrifice beforehand.

Yes, but, what do you think is the source of the template? In Eberron, faith alone can grant clerical powers and make you into a paladin, even if you worship the Lord of Blades or your own blood... do you think it's the same for Saints, or do they require some real celestial or divine power to make them?

And, if it is just faith, do you think it is their own faith that empowers them (like clerics), or it is the faith other people have in their sanctity?

[White Blade]

Yes, but, what do you think is the source of the template? In Eberron, faith alone can grant clerical powers and make you into a paladin, even if you worship the Lord of Blades or your own blood... do you think it's the same for Saints, or do they require some real celestial or divine power to make them?

And, if it is just faith, do you think it is their own faith that empowers them (like clerics), or it is the faith other people have in their sanctity?

It depends on the campaign. I can imagine a half dozen explanations. The Sovereigns did it themselves (Vassal answer), the Silver Flame reacted to an equally holy soul (Purified answer), Daca has awakened the divinity within (Seeker), positive energy flowing from devout souls has rendered Daca a saint (Elven sects answer), or Daca herself might simply be touched by Siberys' power (secularist answer.)

I'd only answer the question if it mattered and wouldn't ruin things. If, for example, a player was themself seeking sainthood. And then I would decide how it was decided and point them in the right direction. That way, a Seeker or a Vassal or a Purified would be equally valid player choices.

[Nifft]

In Eberron, I like the gods to be ineffable, and therefore any Divine acts are only circumstantially likely to be Divine -- there's no proof, ever.

So, I'd want to have at least 3 different possible explanations for the Saint template.

The three default divine suspects would be:
- A god.
- A dragon.
- An outsider.

[Cruiser1]

Yes, but, what do you think is the source of the template? In Eberron, faith alone can grant clerical powers and make you into a paladin, even if you worship the Lord of Blades or your own blood... do you think it's the same for Saints, or do they require some real celestial or divine power to make them?

The requirements for Clerical powers are indeed relaxed in the Eberron setting. However, being a Saint has a RAW explanation. Of course, that source doesn't say whether giving advice from a pillar counts as meeting the RAW requirement of making an extraordinary sacrifice for the good of another.

"Sainthood is a gift bestowed by the deities of good and the mightiest celestials to those exalted heroes who deserve it."
"Must make an extraordinary sacrifice (not necessarily his or her life) for the good of another."

[RedWarlock]

There's a good fantasy book/series that applies here. The Curse of Chalion, by Lois McMaster Bujold, and its sequel, Paladin of Souls. In that series, saints are not just the virtuous, a god's chosen faithful, they are the god's tools, to be used to accomplish a greater good, a true miracle, at the right time and the right place, and discarded when worn out. It's vicious, they are willing to sacrifice one willing tool to save a thousand other souls. They are benevolent, loving gods, but they can only empower others, they cannot physically intercede themselves, except through their willing saints.

This saint is likely waiting for her right moment, her chosen purpose.