War Magic on Bladesinger instead of Extra Attack

[BladedWizard]

Hi everyone,

I wonder if changing the level 6 Bladesinger ability of an Extra Attack to War Magic from the Eldritch Knight would be too OP for the BS? I personally think it would fit really well with the BS, however, I understand that he would get it one level earlier than the EK.

What do you think? As a DM would you allow it?

[Maxilian]

As long as its only cantrip, then maybe its ok...

But not at lvl 6, add more lvls (Though, in general, you are giving, an already powerful subclass -that is already part of a powerful class-, more power, so that's something i'm not fan of)

[Lombra]

I don't think that it will significantly empower the class, it should be fine, really.

It's safe to guess that you'll use a scag melee cantrip, so it's just extra attack with a bit more damage, for it you trade the two-weapon fighting option though, which outputs roughly the same damage.

[Catullus64]

War Magic is actually a stronger feature on a wizard than on a fighter, simply because of opportunity cost: a fighter has to give up a second attack and his bonus action to still get an attack in with his cantrip. Without a multi-attack, the wizard is gaining this attack for nothing but his bonus action, since he was more likely to be casting a cantrip anyway, and his cantrips are more effective due to likely having a higher intelligence modifier than the Eldritch Knight. Doesn't seem overpowered, exactly, but it seems to circumvent the intended design principle of the trade-off between magic and attacks.

[CaptAl]

I wouldn't allow it. The point of extra attack on a bladesinger is to force a meaningful choice. Changing it to warmagic will make it the default. The choice becomes booming blade plus weapon strike, or GFB plus weapon strike.

[nickl_2000]

I'm against it as well more for flavor reasons, I feel like EK has lost of lot of it's uniqueness already with Bladelock and Bladesingers. Warmagic is something that makes them unique still.

[bid]

I wouldn't allow it. The point of extra attack on a bladesinger is to force a meaningful choice. Changing it to warmagic will make it the default. The choice becomes booming blade plus weapon strike, or GFB plus weapon strike.
Basically this.

It's a shame it looks so flavorful, but it's the opposite.


If it was a high-powered campaign, I'd allow it for level 1+ spells only (aka no cantrip).

[djreynolds]

Now imagine song of victory added to war magic, basically two attacks with intelligence and dexterity bonus added to the damage but coupled with the cantrip damage.

Say BB for a 14th level bladesinger with war magic/booming blade is 2d8 thunder, 1d8 rapier +5+5 and then BA rapier 1d8 +5+5........ it ends up being the difference of the cantrip damage basically... up to 3d8 thunder (but this does not require TWF style or the dual wielder feat) and you could add in 1 more level of fighter for dueling style.

14BS/1fighter with war magic is making it 2d8 thunder, 1d8+10+2 and BA for 1d8+10+2 so that's around 4x4.5+24= 42 average DPR

But you do lose the ability to have 3 attacks with TWF 14bladesinger/1fighter at 15th level 1d8+5+5, 1d8+5+5, and off hand 1d8+5+5 (but this requires a style and feat, TWF from fighter and dual wielder)
14BS/1fighter is doing about 3x4.5+30= 43.5 average DPR

Its really not much of a difference until 17th level when the cantrip like BB is 3d8 thunder

[bid]

Its really not much of a difference until 17th level when the cantrip like BB is 3d8 thunder
Except you used warcaster to get that DPR.

I see that song of victory has a similar impact as the 3rd attack from EK 11, but it has no flavor.

[Sicarius Victis]

Except you used warcaster to get that DPR.

No, they used Dual Wielder, and even if they hadn't that's only an average decrease of three damage each turn. Not that big of a deal.

[bid]

No, they used Dual Wielder, and even if they hadn't that's only an average decrease of three damage each turn. Not that big of a deal.
DW gives you a free hand to cast spells?

[DracoKnight]

DW gives you a free hand to cast spells?

You don't need a free hand for GFB/BB.

[Sicarius Victis]

DW gives you a free hand to cast spells?

Actally, it does.


You don't need a free hand for GFB/BB.

Wait, now I'm confused. I thought we were talking about the DW example, not the BB example. Did I guess wrong?

Also, side note: while you don't need a free hand for GFB/BB, as a Bladesinger the only time someone's not going to have that free hand is when they're dual-wielding, and if they're planning to use spells most of the time they're probably not going to be dual-wielding anyways.

[DracoKnight]

Wait, now I'm confused. I thought we were talking about the DW example, not the BB example. Did I guess wrong?

Oops - I was confused too...my confusion caused more confusion.


Also, side note: while you don't need a free hand for GFB/BB, as a Bladesinger the only time someone's not going to have that free hand is when they're dual-wielding, and if they're planning to use spells most of the time they're probably not going to be dual-wielding anyways.

The best route, IMO, is not TWFing, but instead casting haste for the AC, buffed move, and extra attack. Now you effectively have TWF with a free hand, no multiclassing required for stat to that 3rd attack. 'Course you could still TWF and get 4 attacks.

[bid]

Also, side note: while you don't need a free hand for GFB/BB, as a Bladesinger the only time someone's not going to have that free hand is when they're dual-wielding, and if they're planning to use spells most of the time they're probably not going to be dual-wielding anyways.
That was my point. And why in a high-powered campaign I'd only allow non-cantrip with BS-war magic.

[djreynolds]

War Magic is an Eldritch Knight class feature and I personally would leave it as that.

I mean if your bladesinger, who is a full caster with access to every spell, running around using cantrips... your party has problems

For the OP... just make a dex based Eldritch Knight and grab 2-4 levels of bladesinger. Its an effective build

I agree BiD, its just cheesy. Why not just ask to smite also?

And with that said, paladin/bladesinger, you have the stats

[ObiHan]

War Magic is an Eldritch Knight class feature and I personally would leave it as that.

I mean if your bladesinger, who is a full caster with access to every spell, running around using cantrips... your party has problems

For the OP... just make a dex based Eldritch Knight and grab 2-4 levels of bladesinger. Its an effective build

I agree BiD, its just cheesy. Why not just ask to smite also?

And with that said, paladin/bladesinger, you have the stats

Warlock 2/Sorcerer 3/Bladesinger X

Four times per short rest you can twin those cantrips. It likely delays access to extra attack and a few Bladesinger features, but it's a fun little trick.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I HIGHLY support it-- my own houserules do the same. You might add the Valor Bard ability on later in place of Song of Victory, too.

The Bladesinger's biggest problem by far is that it fails HARD at mixing magic and combat. Instead, it's just a normal Wizard with a crazy strong defensive boost. It really needs features like War Magic to help you feel like you're a "proper" gish.