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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Enforcer: A Strength Rogue Archetype



AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-09-08, 10:12 AM
https://docs.google.com/document/d/15ro63kTDLCBjCI3uIkcBttmnduuIb_snNYfvvA45eks

A friend of mine asked for me to make a Strength based Rogue (I might as well be doing commissions and requests at this point lol), so the Enforcer was my best try. If you have any suggestions or criticisms, feel free to reply.

Nu
2017-09-09, 01:13 PM
The features as written seem helpful for the rogue, but it feels as though it's perhaps lacking something. The problem I see with the first two features you get at level 3 is you're essentially just bringing up a rogue that wears medium armor/wields martial weapons up to "baseline" for a default rogue. You don't really seem to grow more powerful from these features. You can use martial weapons, but nothing better than the rapier, since anything above a d8 is heavy (ranged weapons like the longbow included). Possibly excepting the lance, but that has its own special conditions. I'd definitely try to work Intimidation in there, as it has a strong tie to the "muscle" portion of a thieves' guild thematically.

AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-09-09, 01:57 PM
The features as written seem helpful for the rogue, but it feels as though it's perhaps lacking something. The problem I see with the first two features you get at level 3 is you're essentially just bringing up a rogue that wears medium armor/wields martial weapons up to "baseline" for a default rogue. You don't really seem to grow more powerful from these features. You can use martial weapons, but nothing better than the rapier, since anything above a d8 is heavy (ranged weapons like the longbow included). Possibly excepting the lance, but that has its own special conditions. I'd definitely try to work Intimidation in there, as it has a strong tie to the "muscle" portion of a thieves' guild thematically.

Actually, certain weapons with the versatile (like longswords) could allow for 2 handed sneak attacks with more damage. Rogues don't gave proficiency in medium armor otherwise. I was tempted to do some intimidation but it doesn't really scale well with other archetypes' abilities.

Nu
2017-09-09, 02:09 PM
Actually, certain weapons with the versatile (like longswords) could allow for 2 handed sneak attacks with more damage. Rogues don't gave proficiency in medium armor otherwise. I was tempted to do some intimidation but it doesn't really scale well with other archetypes' abilities.

The versatile thing did occur to me, but seems of dubious value. You change the basic weapon die from a d8 to a d10, for a whopping average increase of 1 damage in exchange for giving up the ability to TWF for an extra shot at Sneak Attack. I'll give you that it's something, but it has its own cost (aside from the cost of the class feature itself), which is why it doesn't really count as a net plus in my mind, especially since the rogue only really gets to use that slightly bigger weapon die once per round.

You get to use Medium Armor, but that's not really an increase in power, just options. Even half-plate +2 Dex is only equal to Studded Leather +5 Dex, with disadvantage on Stealth besides. If the game allows feats, you can use Medium Armor Mastery to make it better, but again, that's an additional cost on top of the feature.

Saiga
2017-09-10, 01:15 AM
Easiest way to push this archetype more into strength: make the level 3 ability have something to do with grappling or shoving. Rogues can easily expertise in Athletics, and that is one of the combat niches strength builds have. The 'enforcer' wrestling and shoving people around has a lot of flavour.

And muscle control... just seems awkward, flavour-wise. If you're going to be a Strength based Rogue, you are going to be leaving stealth behind. Especially if you're in Medium Armor.

Lalliman
2017-09-10, 04:34 AM
The idea behind it is great, but the problem is that this doesn't reward being Strength-based in any way until 17th level, at which point it doesn't matter.

Going Str-based with medium armour is actually a downgrade from going Dex-based, because you need greater investment (a 14 in Dex, which is not your attack stat) to hit the same AC.

Brute Attack is basically a side-grade. Instead of short-swords you can wield hand axes and instead of a rapier you can wield a longsword. There are some marginal niche benefits, namely that hand axes can be thrown and a long-sword can be two-handed, but it's not worth spending a class feature on, nor building Str instead of Dex when you don't have heavy armour proficiency.

Savage Precision and Vigorous Defense function regardless of your Str score.

Muscle Control, if you ever get there, finally rewards you for using Str. But it enhances your Stealth, an ability that you're not likely to use for both thematic and mechanical reasons. Thematically, someone who chooses this archetype may not be interested in taking Stealth proficiency at all, which makes this feature a waste. Even if you do want to use Stealth, you're discouraged from doing it because your Dex will be 14 at most and half plate causes disadvantage on Stealth checks.

End result:
- This archetype is weak early on because it gets no actual benefit until 9th level.
- Someone who chooses this archetype is still better off building Dexterity.

Possible fixes:
- Provide a significant benefit early on that actually requires you to use Str. A simple one might be: When you make a sneak attack with an attack using Strength, you use d8s for your sneak attack damage instead of d6s.
- If you want Stealth to be a viable option, give the ability to ignore disadvantage on Stealth checks caused by medium armour.
- Even with the above feature, I wouldn't rely on the character using Stealth. This archetype isn't a thief or assassin. This is the guy who knocks on the doors of people who anger the thieves' guild and beats the crap out of them. He fights dirty, but that doesn't mean he's likely to be stealthy. As such, Muscle Control is best replaced with something that benefits fighting, grappling or intimidation.

GalacticAxekick
2017-09-10, 12:52 PM
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies
Starting at level 3, you gain proficiency with martial weapons and medium armor.

Brute Attack
Upon selecting this archetype at level 3, your training with varied weapon types grants your Sneak Attacks greater versatility. You may perform Sneak Attack with any weapon as long as it does not have the Heavy property.These features are thematically and mechanically consistent with a Strength-based Rogue, but they neither increase the Rogue's power nor off it new tools. Wizards of the Coast specifically noted in their guide to modifying classes (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/modifying-classes) that "the class features granted by the roguish archetypes at 3rd level should fundamentally alter the way the class plays, just as the cleric’s Divine Domain features do." Think about how strong the Assassin's Assassinate is, and how it encourages aggressive ambush tactics. Think about all the things you can do with a Thief's Fast Hands and Second Story Work.

Being able to use martial weapons proficiently and with Sneak Attack is fine, but excluding heavy weapons means no damage dice above 1d10 (greatsword, greataxe, maul, etc) and no reach (pike, halberd, glaive). Some stronger ranged weapons come to the table, like the longbow, but for the most part the Rogue is unchanged.

Similarly, medium armour means the Enforcer will need to invest a little in Dex on top of Strength, instead of pure Dex like a conventional Rogue or pure Strength like a heavy-armoured character. It costs fewer Ability Score Increases than leaving them in light armour, but more than any other Rogue has to put up with, which almost makes this a downgrade.

I see two ways to make the Enforcer's 3rd level to be worthwhile:
Open the doors to some unroguelike tools (heavy weapons, heavy armour, shields) for increased defense, power or reach.
Carve out a niche no other Rogue touches.
Thieves have the best stealth, mobility and interaction with the environment. Assassins have free, enhanced Sneak Attacks against foes they ambush and disguise tools to assist those ambushes. Neither of these archetypes can fight face to face effectively (since they rely on stealth and surprise respectively). Why not make the Enforcer and dirty front-line brawler?

Maybe offer an enhanced Grapple that also blinds, deafens, silences or restrains the target (offering advantage, and thus Sneak Attacks!) Maybe offer a Shove that launches the foe an extra distance as high or far as your running jump. Maybe grappled foes can be used as living shields. Maybe shoved foes can be (Sneak!) attacked as a bonus action (similar to the "trampling charge" some creatures have. All of this rides on your Athletics, which makes it perfect for a Strength Rogue.


Savage Precision
Beginning at level 9, whenever rolling damage for your Sneak Attack, you may reroll all 1s. You may reroll 2s at level 17. A Rogue's 9th level feature is usually a utility, not a combat tool like this. Also, this feature is a numerical upgrade that doesn't effect how the Rogue plays, which makes it a bit boring.

The Thief gets enhanced Stealth provided they move slowly. The Assassin can create false identities including costumes, documents and histories. What kind of social and exploration features would only an Enforcer have?

If the Thief is a quiet skulker, the Enforcer might be a lighting-fast raider. Features to crash through doors and windows, reduce falling damage and such might be appropriate.

And if the Assassin is a wolf in sheep's clothing, the Enforcer might just be a wolf. Torture, threats of violence, or even some kind of "calling card" to mark your territory, future victims or past exploits might be appropriate.


Vigorous Defense
Upon reaching level 13, your body’s natural durability furthers your reflexes. Whenever using Uncanny Dodge, you may further reduce damage by your Constitution modifier.Once again, the Rogue's 13th level feature is usually a utility, and as far as combat features go, this is a numerical upgrade rather than a new tool.


Muscle Control
Upon reaching level 17, your control over you body allows you to better stealth. Whenever you roll stealth and the result is less than your Strength score, you may use your Strength score instead.A creative feature, thematically! A bit of a stretch, but that's no biggie.

The problem is is that Rogues got Reliable Talent at 11th level. "Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10." Muscle Control does almost the same thing.

A Rogue with Dex and proficiency in Stealth is already rolling a minimum 10 + 5 + 6 = 21.
A Rogue with no Dex but expertise in Stealth is already rolling a minimum 10 + 6 + 6 = 22.
Dex and Expertise is 10 + 5 + 6 + 6 = 27

So what are you really gaining even if your Strength is capped at 20 and that becomes the minimum Stealth roll? The right to forgo proficiency/expertise in Stealth, 16 levels after you chose your proficiencies?


If the Thief's first and last feature make them more mobile and active, and if the Assassin's first and last features make them powerful ambushers, the Enforcer's first and last features should reinforce the same theme too. And in my opinion, that theme is fighting dirty.

Maybe this meshes with one of the utilities. Maybe you gain advantage on attacks against frightened foes, meaning torture, threats and calling cards can initiate Sneak Attacks.

Or maybe it enhances an old combat feature, so you can throw enemies into one another or constrict a grappled enemy for damage.

Maybe it's completely fresh, so it lets you leave lingering injuries with your Sneak Attacks. A useless eye, ear, arm or leg is a great source of advantage and a great tool to intimidate foes.

Kane0
2017-09-10, 08:19 PM
No relation to this Enforcer, STRogue (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2016/08/enforcer.html)?

GalacticAxekick
2017-09-10, 08:56 PM
Huh! I like the direction they went with the 9th and 13th level features relative to OP's features. I thought fighting dirty and intimidation would be the best way to build the archetype and I like that someone else agrees.

AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-09-10, 09:56 PM
No relation to this Enforcer, STRogue (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2016/08/enforcer.html)?

Surprisingly, not at all. They did it way the hell better than me though. Like, the proficiencies and brute attack/brutal attack ar the exact same. I don't think I saw this before, but maybe I did and subconsciously based it off Middle Finger's?

Kane0
2017-09-10, 11:46 PM
Surprisingly, not at all. They did it way the hell better than me though. Like, the proficiencies and brute attack/brutal attack ar the exact same. I don't think I saw this before, but maybe I did and subconsciously based it off Middle Finger's?

Hah, thanks. I sent them the initial version of this one :smallwink:

AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-09-11, 07:51 AM
Hah, thanks. I sent them the initial version of this one :smallwink:

Thanks! I'd recommend using that one. It's basically everything I wanted this to be, just way better.

Submortimer
2017-09-17, 06:27 PM
Surprisingly, not at all. They did it way the hell better than me though. Like, the proficiencies and brute attack/brutal attack ar the exact same. I don't think I saw this before, but maybe I did and subconsciously based it off Middle Finger's?


Honestly, probably not. The Thug/Strength Rogue archetype has been around since 3.5, and most versions made for 5E read pretty similarly since there's a few specific things that makes this style of rogue work.

Ours kinda tries to evoke the Bouncer/Thug idea, with Massive Shove allowing you to throw people out the door and having bonuses to intimidation.

Plus, you can sneak attack with your fists, which is fun. Strength open hand monk / Enforcer rogue FTW.

AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-09-17, 09:15 PM
Honestly, probably not. The Thug/Strength Rogue archetype has been around since 3.5, and most versions made for 5E read pretty similarly since there's a few specific things that makes this style of rogue work.

Ours kinda tries to evoke the Bouncer/Thug idea, with Massive Shove allowing you to throw people out the door and having bonuses to intimidation.

Plus, you can sneak attack with your fists, which is fun. Strength open hand monk / Enforcer rogue FTW.

Actually, I've never really messed around with Pathfinder, weirdly enough. That said, I do think yours is a lot more properly balanced than mine.