To Serve Two Masters. AL Paladin/Warlock Multiclass: How to shove in that synergy.

[prototype00]

No man can serve two masters: for either he
will hate the one, and love the other; or else
he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

King James Bible, Matthew 6:24

So as I tend to do when I fixate upon a particular build, I like to buff and polish until I've squeezed in as much synergy as I possibly can. So this thread is just to describe what conclusions I've come to, and to crowdsource better ideas as and when they arise (thanks everyone!)

So lets start with the Chassis, shall we:

A Paladin Warlock Multiclass:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m9fn159gip7t0d0/5caa172e75d7fcc0369b431ab53c224a.png?raw=1

Gets:

1. Cha Synergy

2. Heavy Armor proficiency (allows you to skip the Dex)

3. Short Rest Spell Slots (from Warlock that can be used to power Paladin Smite)

But where to make the cutoff in classes? Well, on the Warlock side, lvl 8 gets you the maximum spell level that can be used to power Smites RAW (4th level casting for 5d8), so you can put the rest into Paladin.

12th level Paladin gets you a whole raft of nice things, loads of spells up to 3rd level, Auras of Protection and Courage, good Oath abilities and spellcasting and the very nice damage bonus of Improved Divine Smite.

But there is also the issue that with one hand taken up with a shield and the other with a weapon, you can't perform either Paladin or Warlock spellcasting, which is a bummer. Well, to solve that you will need:

1. Arcane/Divine Foci to sub for the Material Components.

- For the Paladin, that's easy enough, just stick a big ol' holy symbol on your shield, problem solved.

- For Warlock, more tricky. Most of these aren't weapon like except for the staff, which can be a Quarterstaff, as per Sage Advice (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/03/20/can-i-use-arcane-focus-staff-as-a-quarterstaff-in-melee/).

2. The Warcaster Feat to sub for Somatic Components. (No choice here, just pick it up). But hmm, since you have to use a Quarterstaff anyway...

3. Polearm Master - You knew it was coming, extra attacks with the one handed quarterstaff ho! Synergizes for big damage with the Paladin's Fighting Style: Dueling which adds +2 to all your attacks.

... and since you get that reaction action Opportunity attack from Polearm Master whenever enemies step in to melee with you (5ft), you get to hit them in the face with your big ol' billy club. But there is a way to make this even better. With the Warcaster Feat, you can even use spells to strike back with that Opportunity Attack, but it needs to include a strike with your Staff and only hit one enemy, hmmm, what would work?

- Booming Blade is a nice one, a cantrip you can use over and over again, only targets one foe with extra damage eventually and punishes them if they move. But they have no reason to move once they make it next to you, do they?

Well, if you are a 7th level Oath of Vengeance Paladin, then you can use the Relentless Avenger ability to move 1/2 your speed (15ft) away, which either forces them to stop moving right away, or eat the damage. Nice combo there, and it neatly decides what Oath our Paladin is going to take (its a good one too, Vengeance Paladin is the straight up murder Oath).

So far we have Paladin 12 (Vengeance) / Warlock 8 (?), so what to take for the Warlock?

Well, as far as Pacts, that is, from what I can see, a matter of taste. I favor the Fiend Pact (using the powers of darkness to strike down even great evils is a good hook, also great abilities for a Gish). But as for boon, I think the Tome is best for one simple Cantrip: Shillelagh. Lets you cut through Resistance and increases your damage dice to a d8. Also lets you put all your ASI's (you'll have 4 of them after taking 2 feats as a vHuman) into Charisma and Constitution.

But by all means, lets not ignore our bread and butter ranged attack - Eldritch Blast, which also makes you a ranged powerhouse as you level, something that Paladins otherwise sorely lack. So...

So for Cantrips (you'll get 6, 3 of which can be from any classes' spellbook):

Warlock:
Booming Blade (You'll have to go SCAG for this)
Eldritch Blast
Either Prestidigitation or Mage Hand to Taste

Others:
Guidance will probably be useful throughout your entire adventuring life.
Shillelagh as mentioned is a good pick for this build
Spare the Dying is not bad or you could pick up something else to taste.

And now for the long term stuff, Warlock Invocations (By 8th level you'll have 4 so here are 4):

Devil's Sight - Not only good for general utility, also sets up eternal advantage for you and disadvantage for enemies (and unlucky allies close by) after you start casting Darkness on your Quarterstaff.
Book of Ancient Secrets - Useful for picking up Find Familiar, which can net you an Owl, which is a good way of getting Advantage on your first attack every turn.
Fiendish Vigor - Start every combat with 8 temporary Hit Points, I like it!
Agonizing Blast - Lets make sure our ranged attack really hurts.

Hmm, did I miss anything...? Obviously this is all AL legal stuff, if you go UA, you can change things around.

[mer.c]

Yup, that's pretty much the Paladin/Lock build. PAM + IDS + Duelist + Vengeance + Shillelagh + Pact Magic + Cha synergy is damn powerful.

Depending on stat distribution and importance of maintaining concentration, you may want to get Resilient: Constitution. Even with advantage on Concentration from War Caster, the proficiency in all Con saves is really good.

Thorn Whip is also a good Druid cantrip to pick up. And consider the Misty Visions (I think that's what it's called) invocation. At-will illusions of that size is a powerful ability.

[Unoriginal]

You forgot that Paladins didn't have to serve a god in this edition. They can if they want to, but their powers come from their intense belief in their Oath and their cause.

May be pedantic of me to point this out, but it's just to avoid confusion with the "two masters" thing.

[prototype00]

Yup, that's pretty much the Paladin/Lock build. PAM + IDS + Duelist + Vengeance + Shillelagh + Pact Magic + Cha synergy is damn powerful.

I also like how many ways it has to give yourself advantage on attacks: Familiar shennanigans, Devils Sight + Darkness, and Oath of Vengeance. If you aren't getting advantage on at least every other attack, then something has gone wrong.


Depending on stat distribution and importance of maintaining concentration, you may want to get Resilient: Constitution. Even with advantage on Concentration from War Caster, the proficiency in all Con saves is really good.

Also a good possibility, I wonder how much you will need it when combined with Aura of Protection?


Thorn Whip is also a good Druid cantrip to pick up. And consider the Misty Visions (I think that's what it's called) invocation. At-will illusions of that size is a powerful ability.

Misty Visions is definitely a good utility pick, hard to think what I'd want to give up Invocation-wise to pick it up. But Thorn Whip, wouldn't I be better off just Eldritch Blasting them if they are in range?


You forgot that Paladins didn't have to serve a god in this edition. They can if they want to, but their powers come from their intense belief in their Oath and their cause.

May be pedantic of me to point this out, but it's just to avoid confusion with the "two masters" thing.

True, I was playing off preconceptions there, but there is nothing in the lore that prevents this.

[Sirdar]

I think you should add the class-progression to your initial post. How many levels are 'weak' compared to a single classed Warlock or Paladin? You don't get all the goodies at once and it is a delicate matter to take levels in the 'right order' for your build. :-)

Edit: Also, level 4 spell slots are available at Warlock 7 (so you don't have to go to level 8 for that).

[prototype00]

I think you should add the class-progression to your initial post. How many levels are 'weak' compared to a single classed Warlock or Paladin? You don't get all the goodies at once and it is a delicate matter to take levels in the 'right order' for your build. :-)

Good idea, I hadn't actually worked out the progression. Since you are starting as a Paladin, I don't think you'll have "weak" levels, but most of your early adventuring life should be as a vanilla Paladin...

[Sirdar]

Good idea, I hadn't actually worked out the progression. Since you are starting as a Paladin, I don't think you'll have "weak" levels, but most of your early adventuring life should be as a vanilla Paladin...

At what (total) level do get get Extra Attack and when do you take PAM? At what level do you take Shillelagh? Trust me, you need to plan it carefully to avoid weak levels.

[Millstone85]

You forgot that Paladins didn't have to serve a god in this edition. They can if they want to, but their powers come from their intense belief in their Oath and their cause.

May be pedantic of me to point this out, but it's just to avoid confusion with the "two masters" thing.
using the powers of darkness to strike down even great evils is a good hookNormally I would agree, and the Vengeance/Fiend palalock is indeed a great application of the character being "willing to sacrifice even their own righteousness to mete out justice".

But if this is AL then it is FR and in that setting divine magic belongs to the gods. The classic expectation of a lawful good paladin also seems to be in full effect, or at least more difficult to escape.

[Arkhios]

Didn't read the posts above, just wanted to reflect my own view.

Oath of the Ancients (7 lvls or more) couples really well with Archfey Patron, as the Fey are not exclusively evil creatures. For example, Queen Titania, Lady of the Summer Court is characterized as Good aligned. As is Oberon, her Husband (though the latter has a little whimsical nature and leans towards neutrality in D&D terms).

Also, looking at Oath of the Ancients' theme, it's all about light over darkness, life over death, and hope over despair. Summer and sunlight go well hand in hand.

Note: even though the above combination suggests good aligned, good doesn't necessarily equal to being nice, per se.

On hindsight, Archfey would work really well as a Patron regardless of your alignment or Oath.

[prototype00]

At what (total) level do get get Extra Attack and when do you take PAM? At what level do you take Shillelagh? Trust me, you need to plan it carefully to avoid weak levels.

Hmm, so the progression I have, off the top of my head is as follows:

vHuman

Str 16
Dex 8
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 16

To start off with (you'll want 15 str for Plate at least, so 16 is not a big leap, especially for early game effectiveness.

Paladin 1 - vHuman Feat (Pole Arm Master), Divine Sense, Lay on Hands - Good start, Paladins might lack a bit of the Oomph that fighters get a lvl 1, but Pole Arm Master as a 1st level character forgives a lot of sins. Rock out in your chainmail, shield and Quarterstaff with probably one of the best starting damages.

Paladin 2 - Fighting Style (Dueling), Spellcasting, Divine Smite - At this level, I would only smite when I crit, just to conserve the spells. Bless is really good, for example, especially at low level. Fighting Style (Dueling) means that you are putting out the damage as well as a Fighter of this level using PAM tricks.

Paladin 3 - Divine Health, Sacred Oath - Sacred Oath of Vengeance is really strong at lvl 3, you get spells (Hunter's Mark is even more damage if you can concentrate) and the Vow of Enmity is going to have you with advantage for really important fights. (Hunter's mark only has a verbal component, so no need for Warcaster just yet).

Paladin 4 - Feat (Warcaster) - Might be considered a not so awesome level, but still good. Warcaster will let you cut loose with all the spells you want to cast, without care.

Paladin 5 - Extra attack and 2nd level spells, nothing to be sneezed at. You also get Hold Person once per day. I would use this to smite mightily if I get the chance.

Paladin 6 - Aura of Protection! Woohoo! We got there! Your party probably likes bunching up around you too for the +3 to all saves.

Paladin 6 / Warlock 1 - All right, Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast good to go! Also 4 temporary HP when you kill something is a nice bonus.

Paladin 7 / Warlock 1 - Since we aren't going to get an ASI for a while, I thought it would be nice to get the Sacred Oath/ Booming Blade/ Relentless Avenger Ability online.

Paladin 7 / Warlock 2 - Invocations! I'd go with Devil's Sight and either Fiendish Vigor (if you feel the need to be even more tanky) or Agonizing Blast (if you'd like to make ranged foes regret life)

Paladin 7 / Warlock 3 - Pact of the Tome! Here is where you can pick up Shillelagh, which is a minor benefit and I would switch out an Invocation for Book of Ancient Secrets for Find Familiar and whatever other 1st level ritual you want.

From that point on, most of the build is in place, so take Warlock or Paladin levels (actually next level would be Paladin probably for the 8th lvl ASI, put it into Cha for that sweet boost to Shillelagh) as you will.

Howsit look? I don't think any levels were particularly... unfortunate. But if you want Paladin goodies first, you do have to wait a bit for synergies to come in.

prototype00

Edit: TL:DR

- PAM online by level 1, full potential reached with Dueling Style level 2.

- Extra Attack by level 5 and Aura of Protection level 6.

- Relentless Avenger Trick/Booming Blade online level 8.

- Pact of Tome with Familiar providing Advantage and Devil Eyes + Darkness online level 10.

- Oh yeah! The 8th Warlock level is for the ASI, but it isn't .... strictly required.

[prototype00]

Normally I would agree, and the Vengeance/Fiend palalock is indeed a great application of the character being "willing to sacrifice even their own righteousness to mete out justice".

But if this is AL then it is FR and in that setting divine magic belongs to the gods. The classic expectation of a lawful good paladin also seems to be in full effect, or at least more difficult to escape.

Really depends on what you are seeking Vengeance on, if Undead, Kelemvor probably doesn't mind sponsoring you. If Fiends, then Red Knight probably has no problem of using the enemy's strength against them. If a repressive empire killed your family, then Hoar probably wants you to take the power of fiends and burn them forever, Mua Ha ha!


Didn't read the posts above, just wanted to reflect my own view.

Oath of the Ancients (7 lvls or more) couples really well with Archfey Patron, as the Fey are not exclusively evil creatures. For example, Queen Titania, Lady of the Summer Court is characterized as Good aligned. As is Oberon, her Husband (though the latter has a little whimsical nature and leans towards neutrality in D&D terms).

Also, looking at Oath of the Ancients' theme, it's all about light over darkness, life over death, and hope over despair. Summer and sunlight go well hand in hand.

Note: even though the above combination suggests good aligned, good doesn't necessarily equal to being nice, per se.

On hindsight, Archfey would work really well as a Patron regardless of your alignment or Oath.

Sure, Archfey is a step down for a gish, but not bad.

[Talionis]

This thread seems to be almost a guide almost a build. I think you need to decide which you are doing.

In this vein. You basically say 8/12 split is the only choice. I'd say you have many break points that make sense in this combo. 2 Paladin/18 Warlock, 6 Paladin/14 Warlock, 7 Paladin/13 Warlock, 9 Paladin/11 Warlock, 11Paladin/9 Warlock all are very reasoned break points for this combination.

I personally like Paladin 9/11 Warlock. You get access to 3rd level Paladin Spells and you get access to a 3rd Warlock 5th level spell each short rest.

Paladin 11/9 Warlock grants Improved Smite, that with say the Haste spell is very strong.

But going for one extra AS I on the 8/12 split is over rated.

I also think you should drill down more on the spells that Warlock add to your list. Armor of Agathys is viable. Fiend adds Fireball which is good AoE damage for a Paladin. But Fiend isn't the onlky good choice.

Thematically Fey and Oath of Nature work very well together.

[prototype00]

This thread seems to be almost a guide almost a build. I think you need to decide which you are doing.

Not really a guide, I've only been playing for a month or so. I just like to crowdsource opinion, theres always something that you might miss while planning out a character.


In this vein. You basically say 8/12 split is the only choice. I'd say you have many break points that make sense in this combo. 2 Paladin/18 Warlock, 6 Paladin/14 Warlock, 7 Paladin/13 Warlock, 9 Paladin/11 Warlock, 11Paladin/9 Warlock all are very reasoned break points for this combination.

Depends what you want. I suggested the optimal combo to get the most Smite Damage as well as optimal inclusion of the combos I mentioned. Not subscribing to one true-wayism (isn't a guide, don't recall calling it one), but I think its a reasonably optimized chassis for the build - though, please suggest otherwise, thats what the thread is for (though I do humbly request that you also provide the reasoning, otherwise all we have are numbers. :smallbiggrin:)


I personally like Paladin 9/11 Warlock. You get access to 3rd level Paladin Spells and you get access to a 3rd Warlock 5th level spell each short rest.

The only thing I don't like here is willfully giving up ASI and Improved Divine Smite, but that works reasonably well too.


Paladin 11/9 Warlock grants Improved Smite, that with say the Haste spell is very strong.

Don't disagree, and the extra level of Warlock Casting + Invocation is nice. Whats the over/under on ASI vs spellcasting level anyway? (You an probably give up an ASI for what you accomplish in the build, after all the most important thing is to get Cha to 20 by a reasonable time).


But going for one extra AS I on the 8/12 split is over rated.

Good to know, looking it over, its a bit of a hard decision though as Warlock 5th level Spells are a bit lackluster. Ah well, its a decision that can be made later in the build progression.


I also think you should drill down more on the spells that Warlock add to your list. Armor of Agathys is viable. Fiend adds Fireball which is good AoE damage for a Paladin. But Fiend isn't the onlky good choice.

Thematically Fey and Oath of Nature work very well together.

Like I said, Fiend is a good choice, but it's only one that I favor, not absolutely required for the build, I not only look at the spells but also at the abilities, and Fiend abilities just happened to fit a Gish better (Hexblade from UA would probably be the best fit, really).

[Justin Sane]

Hexblade is a must-have patron here - if you're going Dueling, it allows you to use Cha for it, so Str can stay at 15 after racials.

[WorldAdventurer]

You forgot that Paladins didn't have to serve a god in this edition. They can if they want to, but their powers come from their intense belief in their Oath and their cause.

May be pedantic of me to point this out, but it's just to avoid confusion with the "two masters" thing.

What edition did they?

I know in 3.5, Pathfinder, 4e, and 5e they didn't though I admittedly do not know much of 3.0 and earlier.

[Millstone85]

What edition did they?

I know in 3.5, Pathfinder, 4e, and 5e they didn't though I admittedly do not know much of 3.0 and earlier.Yes and no for 4e paladins.

Becoming a paladin involved rites performed in the name of a specific deity, with the requirement of matching the alignment of your deity. Falling was not a thing power-wise, but the church would go after renegades.

[Arkhios]

What edition did they?

I know in 3.5, Pathfinder, 4e, and 5e they didn't though I admittedly do not know much of 3.0 and earlier.


Yes and no for 4e paladins.

Becoming a paladin involved rites performed in the name of a specific deity, with the requirement of matching the alignment of your deity. Falling was not a thing power-wise, but the church would go after renegades.

In fact it would seem that from setting neutral perspective, only 4th edition enforced the worship of a deity upon paladins. From the very first edition when Paladins were introduced to the game their only restrictions (up to 3.5) were that they had to maintain Lawful Good Alignment and adhere their code of conduct. But never before 4th edition and never after that have they been required to have a patron deity at all. Paladin's divine powers have always (excluding 4th edition) stemmed from their devotion to Good. In other words they don't pray for a deity to grant them spells.

Forgotten Realms is another beast though, since in that setting regardless of your class you are expected to follow a deity, or else when you die, your soul ends up in oblivion.

[greenstone]

Warlocks are not Clerics. Nothing says they have to serve their patron or follow their Patron's agenda.

[VinceAL83]

I have a lvl 8 paladin tank (15str, 10dex, 18con, 6int, 12wis, 18cha) that used to be crown but have been curse (so he's now LE with oathbreaker). I ll get some warlock levels with the hexblade patron and the pact of the chain. Basically, i'm taking it for 3 reasons: it adds shield to my spell list, i ll make my attacks with my charisma instead of str and i can take the invocation that max all the healing while my familiar is near. Also I ll get eldritch blast as a range option. Since i have a +2 weapon, when i ll do my warlock curse, i'll be hitting 1d8+14 as soon i take my warlock lvl (as he party tank, i also do a lot of damage). The party cleric won t have to take plenty spells to heal me with the chain invocation (i had pretty good hd as i leveled with my 91 hp at lvl8). As a paladin tank, i prefer hexblade over undying because of my low str and high cha.

[Spiritchaser]

Hexblade is a must-have patron here - if you're going Dueling, it allows you to use Cha for it, so Str can stay at 15 after racials.

While a hexblade is definitely a great fit mechanically, any tomelock can select shillelagh and (mostly) do the same thing.

[Angelalex242]

It all depends on your Oath.

If you go Ancients (or Conquest), you want level 7 Paladin. If you went Devotion, you can get by on 6 (unless you really like being Charm Proof.)

[Arkhios]

Guys, this thread has been dead for over a year. Let it rest in peace.