Damage to dexterity?

[Kaleph]

Actually, the question is: how do I bring the dexterity of a dragon to 0, when necromancy isn't available?

Ray of clumsiness may bring it to 1, but that's a penalty so it won't stack with "entangled" or other similar conditions.
EDIT: actually it should stack since they are from different sources. I haven't the manuals at hand, can someone confirm?

Poisons won't probably work, because of the DC. Also, they're considered evil and they won't fit our party style.

Any suggestions?

[Zsaber0]

Shivering Touch.

Then duck to dodge flying books.

[Bavarian itP]

Shivering Touch.


when necromancy isn't available?

character limit

[Crake]

entangle plus exhaustion would stack together for a total of -10, however the main problem is that most of the sources of exhaustion are from necromancy sources, but if you could manage to get the dragon exhausted, then a tanglefoot bag can cover the entangle.

[Kaleph]

Necromancy is basically banned in this setting.

Anyhow maximized ray of clumsiness + entangling ectoplasm should work, right? It's also a bit more realistic, from the visual perspective, than using a bag of calthrops.

[Gruftzwerg]

Touch of Golden Ice (exalted feat) could work for evil enemies.
While it has a low DC of 14, you could spam it a lot with unarmed + flurry + twf

[Altair_the_Vexed]

entangle plus exhaustion would stack together for a total of -10, however the main problem is that most of the sources of exhaustion are from necromancy sources, but if you could manage to get the dragon exhausted, then a tanglefoot bag can cover the entangle.
Tanglefoot bag will be trivially easy for a dragon* to break out of. Also, they have no effect on Huge or larger creatures.

*Any dragon tough enough that you need to consider attacking DEX instead of just straight up attacking will have a massive STR.

[Zsaber0]

what level spells do you have access too?

[Crake]

Tanglefoot bag will be trivially easy for a dragon* to break out of. Also, they have no effect on Huge or larger creatures.

*Any dragon tough enough that you need to consider attacking DEX instead of just straight up attacking will have a massive STR.

Well, first off, if the dragon is unable to act due to 0 dex, it can't exactly attempt a strength check to break free. Secondly, even if the DM ruled that it could, that's irrelevant, because the strength check is to unglue yourself from the floor, not to scrape the goo off yourself, so even if you managed to unglue yourself from the floor, you're still entangled by the tanglefoot bag's goo that's on you. But again, if you have 0 dex, you can't exactly act, can you.

As for being unable to affect huge or larger creatures, well, nobody specified how big the dragon was.

[Kaleph]

Druid, level 5 spells
Cleric, level 5 spells
Wizard, level 5 spells (but the PC is a shadowcraft mage, and through earth spell + metamagic school focus he can emulate up to level 6)
Psion, level 4 powers (but ther're already chosen)
Psychic warrior, level 3 powers (but they won't help here).

The enemy is a CR 20 old red dragon. We don't need to face him now, but you never know. Also, the DM will for sure lay down some routes we may follow, to defeat the dragon outside of a fair combat, i.e. through help of powerful NPC's. Anyhow I want a plan B, in order to be sure we can defeat him even if we are alone. Consider that we should take him alive, if possible.

Ray of clumsiness + entangling ectoplasm is the first strategy I could think of, and it should work after all.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Ray of clumsiness cannot reduce dexterity below 1. Most/all penalties work like that.

Psionic minor creation can create a lot of organic plant-based poison for only 1 pp.

Colossal centipede poison deals 2d6/2d6 dexterity damage, for 900 gp per dose. However, the save DC is only 23. You would need to curse the dragon first. The BoVD version has a save DC of 36 but costs 2900 gp per dose.

In the same vein, luhix-tipped arrows are incredibly effective, but extremely cheesy as well.

[SirNibbles]

Ray of clumsiness cannot reduce dexterity below 1. Most/all penalties work like that.

That is a rule derived from examples. No such actual rule of penalties not reducing below 1 exists.

____

Penalties from different sources (Ray of Clumsiness and Entangle) do stack due to the rules of effect stacking, though Ray of Clumsiness still can't drop an enemy below 1, unless other sources would do so already without Ray of Clumsiness (in which case it wouldn't actually be doing anything).

____

The 4th level Druid spell Starvation (Spell Compendium, page 206) inflicts (nonlethal) damage and causes fatigue/exhaustion.

[Kaleph]

Ray of clumsiness cannot reduce dexterity below 1. Most/all penalties work like that.
Ok, I know some discussion on this topic took place, so I need your help. I understand that the penalty coming from ray of clumsiness is limited to -9; afterwards the entanglement comes, with an additional -4 penalty. Entanglement hasn't this limitation, so the dragon's dexterity drops temporarily to 0 (or less, for what it matters).



Psionic minor creation can create a lot of organic plant-based poison for only 1 pp.

Colossal centipede poison deals 2d6/2d6 dexterity damage, for 900 gp per dose. However, the save DC is only 23. You would need to curse the dragon first. The BoVD version has a save DC of 36 but costs 2900 gp per dose.

In the same vein, luhix-tipped arrows are incredibly effective, but extremely cheesy as well.
As I said, poisons aren't on the table. The quest-giver has access to ALL poisons and drugs in existance, but the druid is exalted. Also, we use minor/major creation, but we try to be not to cheesy with it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

That is a rule derived from examples. No such actual rule of penalties not reducing below 1 exists.
Well, yes, but most penalties still work like that, and it's relevant in this case.


Ok, I know some discussion on this topic took place, so I need your help. I understand that the penalty coming from ray of clumsiness is limited to -9; afterwards the entanglement comes, with an additional -4 penalty. Entanglement hasn't this limitation, so the dragon's dexterity drops temporarily to 0 (or less, for what it matters).


As I said, poisons aren't on the table. The quest-giver has access to ALL poisons and drugs in existance, but the druid is exalted. Also, we use minor/major creation, but we try to be not to cheesy with it.
Ah, sorry about that, I didn't read your post carefully enough. Exalted is tricky. In that case, Touch of Golden Ice is your best bet.

As far as I know, the dragon gets to apply penalties in whatever way they want, so they will apply the entanglement first, then the ray penalty. Same as with buff spells.

There is a moderately cheesy way of obtaining shivering touch as non-necromancy: get an Unearthed Arcana variant transmuter to pick it up as versatile spell.

[Kaleph]

Well, yes, but most penalties still work like that, and it's relevant in this case.


Ah, sorry about that, I didn't read your post carefully enough. Exalted is tricky. In that case, Touch of Golden Ice is your best bet.

As far as I know, the dragon gets to apply penalties in whatever way they want, so they will apply the entanglement first, then the ray penalty. Same as with buff spells.

There is a moderately cheesy way of obtaining shivering touch as non-necromancy: get an Unearthed Arcana variant transmuter to pick it up as versatile spell.

Yes, touch of golden ice is on the table, the druid has it. No idea how often he can hit, though - probably a self-buff before combat, such as bite of the were [x] could help.

[tyckspoon]

Other sources of Dex damage (just trolling Spell Compendium here, since you have a large selection of casters to work with):
Contagious Fog, Wiz 3 Conjuration: Inflicts victim with a disease that deals 1d8 Dex damage upon contraction, and then you don't care because they're going to make the followup saves on the later days/be dead before it matters. May count as evil like using poisons.
Dirge: Bard 6 Evocation (sadly Bard-exclusive, so not normally Shadowcraftable) - 2 pts Dex and Str damage per round, Fort Negate, but only the one round - unlike a lot of similar spells, it's not Fort Negate for the whole thing (this is actually a pretty cool spell I'm going to try to remember for other applications.)
Ice Knife: Wizard 2 Conjuration: Normal ranged attack to hit, but you get a pretty decent bonus for your caster levels. Deals negligible HP damage and 2 points Dex, Fort negate. Might make a decent Quickened followup to something else to try and tag on those last couple points of Dex.
Phantasmal Assailants: Wiz 2 Illusion: Ok, there are *so* many ways this can fail (Fear/Mind Affecting tags, Illusion, double-saves to save against) but if it succeeds, it's quite tasty - a whopping 8 points of both Wisdom and Dex damage. Will to negate and then Fort for half. If you can reliably beat the dragon's Will save, spamming this could get it down quite quickly.
Jungle's Rapture: Druid 5 Transmutation - attempts to curse the subject into turning into a plant. It does this by inflicting 1d6 Dex drain on casting and then another 1d6 per day. Will negate.
Kelpstrand: Druid 2 - Entangles and Grapples the target(s) with a bonus based on your caster level.

I find it kind of weird that the entire school of Necromancy is apparently barred, and not just the acts of creating undead or casting evil spells that happen to be of the Necromancy school - among other things, that means you can't use Death Ward and a number of other anti-Undead/anti-negative energy spells, and more immediately relevant to this subject most of the better means of inflicting Shaken/Sickened (they're often partial save effects against nastier fear or Nauseated, which is useful for save-debuffing in preparation for bigger effects) are Necromancy effects.

[Kaleph]

Regarding contagiuos fog, we have to read carefully the spell and discuss it with the dryid and the master. That's pretty nasty, though.

Phantasmal assailants could be useful if we catch the big guy sleeping. That's easier that it looks like, with a certain amount of preparation, due to the habit of the dragon to sleep from time to time outside its lair, because of a certain love affair he's involved with.

Regarding the ban of the necromancy school, it was decided quickly by the master without thinking too much about the consequences, but the ban can be slightly modified on a case-by-case basis; so I have no doubt that death ward would be allowed, but waves of exhaustion...mmm probably not.
To be more precise necromancy is not banned but gives taint to any user but undeads and black dragons.

[RoboEmperor]

Scroll of Limited Wish replicating Shivering Touch?

[tyckspoon]

If you expect your target to be vulnerable to cold (or that you can remove whatever effect is providing its protection) Frostburn offers a couple of less-cheesy alternatives to Shivering Touch; check out Frostbite and Numbing Sphere. Frostbite is probably most notable for being a Cleric spell. Deals 2d6 Dex, Fort half, and a fairly trivial amount of regular HP damage. Numbing Sphere is basically Flaming Sphere, only cold.. but it also deals 1d4 Dex damage, Reflex Negate. And it's only a move action to direct once cast, so your wizard can potentially set it up and then use it as an ongoing threat/area-control device/sacrificial speedbump while still casting other spells.


On the protective side, Sandstorm offers Antifire Sphere, which is like Antilife or Antiplant sphere but for Fire subtype creatures. It also renders everybody inside it immune to Fire damage, which mitigates the risk of having everybody clumped up for a breath attack, and the effect of keeping [Fire] creatures out of physical contact provides some protection against the risk of the dragon just mauling somebody with melee attacks. Useful thing to keep on hand if you think you're going to have to take on the dragon in a straight fight.

[ATHATH]

Is Lahm's Finger Darts a Necromancy spell? I forget.

Why aren't Necromancy spells available to you in your DM's campaign setting?

[Crake]

Is Lahm's Finger Darts a Necromancy spell? I forget.

Why aren't Necromancy spells available to you in your DM's campaign setting?

I suspect the wizard banned necromancy. Finger darts are transmutation, but they're also a corrupt spell, which, according to the OP, using evil stuff goes against the groups ethics.

[ATHATH]

I suspect the wizard banned necromancy. Finger darts are transmutation, but they're also a corrupt spell, which, according to the OP, using evil stuff goes against the groups ethics.
Hey, Corrupt spells aren't actually that Evil. Wasn't the fluff about them that they were how magic used to be done in the "good old days", before our fancy-pants "refined" spells that didn't drain their casters came around/became widespread?

Regardless, keep in mind that Corrupt spells CAN be cast by Neutral (and Evil) characters... just not Good ones.