Alchemists’ Bombs & Incorporeal Targets

[Palanan]

Does an alchemist’s bomb count as a magical weapon, and can it be used against an incorporeal target?

The APG describes the alchemist as infusing the bomb with “magical reserves,” but it doesn’t specify whether the bomb counts as a magical weapon. Is this clarified elsewhere in the rules?

[Psyren]

Does an alchemist’s bomb count as a magical weapon, and can it be used against an incorporeal target?

The APG describes the alchemist as infusing the bomb with “magical reserves,” but it doesn’t specify whether the bomb counts as a magical weapon. Is this clarified elsewhere in the rules?

It sure is:


Bomb (Su)

[Palanan]

Can you elaborate?

All I’m seeing in the CRB is a brief note on p. 221 that Su abilities aren’t subject to spell resistance and don’t function in antimagic areas. Another note on p. 554 states that Su abilities are “magical but not spell-like.” Neither of these is enough for me to resolve the question.

[Psyren]

"An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities."

Bomb is a supernatural ability.

[Palanan]

Aha, thank you. Much appreciated.

[Eox]

I know the flavour text gives a magical reason for it, but I'll never get tired of "Has a grenade" being a superpower.

[Necroticplague]

Bomb is a supernatural ability.

Yes, but 'Bomb (SU)' is the ability to make the thing, not the thing itself. Bomb is the supernatural ability to make the bomb. The bomb itself is not supernatural. It's just a splash weapon.

[Palanan]

The APG specifies that the bomb deals fire damage, and I'm pretty sure that fire damage by itself won't harm incorporeals. If the bombs dealt some sort of magical fire damage, I would expect that to be specified as well.

So, as much as I would like the bombs to be useful against incorporeals, it doesn't look like they would be.

[Eox]

I think that's a little nitpick-y. If an attack would be turned off by an Antimagic Field, it's safe to assume that it can harm an incorporeal creature.

[Yanisa]

The APG specifies that the bomb deals fire damage, and I'm pretty sure that fire damage by itself won't harm incorporeals. If the bombs dealt some sort of magical fire damage, I would expect that to be specified as well.

So, as much as I would like the bombs to be useful against incorporeals, it doesn't look like they would be.

In this case, it's the source that matters, not the type of damage. It's fire damage from a supernatural (i.e. magical) source, thus the fire is considered magical. If the type mattered, things like fireballs couldn't hurt ghosts either. Or how about the many sorcerer and wizard class ability that deal static elemental damage from bloodlines or arcane schools. For example Firejet (SU) (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/SchoolDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Fire).

Things like fire resistance is when the type matters and not the source. A demon doesn't care if its magical or mundane fire, he doesn't get hurt by it.

Also, the bombs are infused with magic. That what's hurting the ghosts.

Bomb (Su)

In addition to magical extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies [...]
Emphasis mine.

[Psyren]

Yes, but 'Bomb (SU)' is the ability to make the thing, not the thing itself. Bomb is the supernatural ability to make the bomb. The bomb itself is not supernatural. It's just a splash weapon.

No. The whole ability is Supernatural. If you want to try and carve out some of it like this, you have to show where it is a separate ability.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Necroticplague
…’Bomb (SU)' is the ability to make the thing, not the thing itself. Bomb is the supernatural ability to make the bomb. The bomb itself is not supernatural. It's just a splash weapon.


Originally Posted by Psyren
No. The whole ability is Supernatural. If you want to try and carve out some of it like this, you have to show where it is a separate ability.


Originally Posted by Yanisa
…the bombs are infused with magic. That[’s] what's hurting the ghosts.

So, there’s two different schools of thought here. One perspective claims the supernatural aspect lies only in making the bombs, after which they become ordinary, nonmagical splash weapons. The other perspective claims that the bombs are created by magic and remain magical until they’re used.

On the face of it, both of these seem reasonable readings, but for my purposes I need some textual basis to decide on one or the other. Is there anything in the rules that could help resolve this issue?

[Psyren]

Is there anything in the rules that could help resolve this issue?

The supernatural tag, and the fact that bombs are magical as Yanisa quoted.

I'm sorry if I sound facetious, but the answer to your question(s) are just very obvious from where I'm sitting. I honestly cannot see how it could be read any other way.

[zergling.exe]

The supernatural tag, and the fact that bombs are magical as Yanisa quoted.

I'm sorry if I sound facetious, but the answer to your question(s) are just very obvious from where I'm sitting. I honestly cannot see how it could be read any other way.

This argument does open up spells being natural abilities when granted by a class, because they aren't listed as Su, Sp, or even Ex. Since the base ability is a natural ability, everything produced by it must be a natural ability. It's a slippery slope that needs more than just the abilities general type tag to determine what type the abilities subfunctions are.

[Psyren]

Since the base ability is a natural ability, everything produced by it must be a natural ability.

Nah, specific trumps general and spells are magical.

"A spell is a one-time magical effect."

If you have something that specifically says alchemist bombs are not magical, I'd be glad to read it, otherwise the general rule does stand.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
I'm sorry if I sound facetious, but the answer to your question(s) are just very obvious from where I'm sitting.

Please keep in mind that not everyone has your depth of experience with the Pathfinder ruleset. These things may be obvious to you, but they certainly aren’t to me.


Originally Posted by Psyren
I honestly cannot see how it could be read any other way.

I have a feeling Necroticplague would say the same about his reading. From my perspective, I see two equally plausible readings, depending on which assumptions are made. I’m trying to make a judgement on which one is more solidly supported by the rules.

[Psyren]

Please keep in mind that not everyone has your depth of experience with the Pathfinder ruleset. These things may be obvious to you, but they certainly aren’t to me.

The rules I'm citing are in 3.5 as well though. Supernatural effects are magical: it's nothing to do with my PF experience.


I have a feeling Necroticplague would say the same about his reading. From my perspective, I see two equally plausible readings, depending on which assumptions are made. I’m trying to make a judgement on which one is more solidly supported by the rules.

Then I would ask them, and you, this question: what precedent is there for carving out part of a supernatural ability and saying "this part of it is not supernatural?" Since it's equally plausible, something in the ability itself must be leading you to say that.

[Wartex1]

This sounds like a good question to ask on Paizo's forums.

[Necroticplague]

If you have something that specifically says alchemist bombs are not magical, I'd be glad to read it, otherwise the general rule does stand.
Happy to provide.

Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack. Bombs are considered weapons...
The throw splash weapon is what's used to hurl bombs, as per the quoted text. That ability is not a supernatural one. Similarly, it's said to be considered a weapon. It is not, however, stated to be considered to be a magic weapon.

[Psyren]

The throw splash weapon is what's used to hurl bombs, as per the quoted text. That ability is not a supernatural one.

This is a non sequitur. It's like saying Black Tentacles isn't a spell because it uses the "Grapple" special attack.


Similarly, it's said to be considered a weapon. It is not, however, stated to be considered to be a magic weapon.

APG 27: "An alchemist can create three special types of magical items—extracts, bombs, and mutagens."


EDIT: I dialed down the snark a bit. I stand by what I initially said though, I don't see how it's possible to read any other way.

[Necroticplague]

This is a non sequitur. It's like saying Black Tentacles isn't a spell because it uses the "Grapple" special attack. No, it's like saying the grapple from Black Tentacles isn't magical, just because it's source is, a statement I would heartily agree with.

[Psyren]

No, it's like saying the grapple from Black Tentacles isn't magical, just because it's source is, a statement I would heartily agree with.

Grappling isn't magical, but the thing doing the grapple is. Throwing isn't magical, but the thing you're throwing is.

I notice you didn't respond to my other statement.

[Necroticplague]

I notice you didn't respond to my other statement.
Because I only know PF from the PFSRD, so I lack the actual book, thus can't check your quoted section for context, something I would prefer to do before making further argument on the subject. I believe you refer to the part under Alchemy (su) (which, I might add is a mess), but I was unsure.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
APG 27: "An alchemist can create three special types of magical items—extracts, bombs, and mutagens."

This nails it for me, since it explicitly describes the bomb itself as a magical item. I’d been looking under the Bomb feature and didn’t see this on the previous page.


Originally Posted by Wartex1
This sounds like a good question to ask on Paizo's forums.

I did indeed (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ulj3?Can-Ghosts-Be-Harmed-By-Alchemists-Bombs), and the weight of opinion is on the side of the bombs being inherently magical.

Not as much citation of rules as I would’ve liked, but the point was made that the bombs would only do half damage, since they’re a corporeal source. I can work with that.

[Psyren]

Because I only know PF from the PFSRD, so I lack the actual book, thus can't check your quoted section for context, something I would prefer to do before making further argument on the subject. I believe you refer to the part under Alchemy (su) (which, I might add is a mess), but I was unsure.

I was also nice enough to provide the page reference, but you can search the quote in the PRD (which has the exact book text) if you like too.


This nails it for me

Happy to win help once more.



Not as much citation of rules as I would’ve liked, but the point was made that the bombs would only do half damage, since they’re a corporeal source. I can work with that.

The Force Bombs discovery will let them do full damage. The bomb die itself takes a small hit, but since you get your full Int bonus plus any other riders (e.g. FCB) you'll easily come out ahead.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
I was also nice enough to provide the page reference….

The page reference was the clincher, so much appreciated.


Originally Posted by Psyren
I dialed down the snark a bit.

Always a good policy.

:smallsmile:

[Eox]

The Ectoplasmic Bomb (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo-alchemist-discoveries/ectoplasmic-bomb) discovery also explicitly deals full damage to incorporeal targets, despite coming from a corporeal source.