PDA

View Full Version : Boosting Half-Elves



arkol
2007-08-12, 06:13 PM
I think it's generally accepted that half-elves are one of the poorest races out there. Probably the worse one from the basic ones. I've seen several DM's who grant'em small bonus like a free skill focus at chocie or similar.

Any other sugestions on how to give the half-elves a boost?

Matthew
2007-08-12, 06:20 PM
Give them a free Feat?

Orzel
2007-08-12, 06:29 PM
Free Skill Focus or Weapon Proficiency Feat

JackMage666
2007-08-12, 06:37 PM
I always liked giving them 4 extra skills at first level, and an extra one at every level after that, just like a Human's skill thing.
A straight bonus feat is too strong, though.

Amiria
2007-08-12, 06:40 PM
Either a bonus feat (like humans) or that extra skill point (like humans).

arkol
2007-08-12, 06:42 PM
I agree that giving them a choice of ANY free feat is too strong. Would make them way better then humans.

I like the idea of extra skills. Or average* feats. Or the choice of either.



*like:
Proficiency (martial only)
Skill focus
Any +2+2 feat (stealthy, alertness and such).

EDIT: How did you got into my brain?! Get out! :smalltongue:

Diggorian
2007-08-12, 06:44 PM
I got no real problem with half elves, but if I wanted to change'em I'd consider these:


The free feat showing the inherent versatility of humans is good. I'd favor this to an added weapon profieciency cause that shows cultural training that may not be relevant.

Four more skill points at level one or one more per level, the human trait as above.

Full elven senses: +2 to listen, spot, and search. Maybe the secret door deal. Not a stretch since they've already got low light vision.

I really dislike the bonus to Diplomacy and Gather Info the often scorned half breeds get that their parent races do not. I'd replace it with a +1 to Reflex, Move silent and Hide (or two other Dex skills). My reasoning is that it's like a partial Dex bump, the effective bonus of a +2 to Dex to only a few of Dexterity's benefactors.


Hope this helps.

my_evil_twin
2007-08-12, 07:44 PM
Like JackMage, I give half-elves extra skill points as humans.

In the same vein, I give half-orcs a bonus feat from the fighter list.

MrNexx
2007-08-12, 09:59 PM
http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/3431.html

JackMage666
2007-08-12, 10:17 PM
http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/3431.html

But that's a +1 LA, just for the fact that there is no balancing attribute penalty.

NullAshton
2007-08-12, 10:28 PM
More social encounters?

Logic
2007-08-12, 10:28 PM
Like JackMage, I give half-elves extra skill points as humans.

In the same vein, I give half-orcs a bonus feat from the fighter list.

I do the same, except the feat that half-orcs get is pretty much any core feat.

Josh the Aspie
2007-08-12, 10:49 PM
Half elves being outcasts was something that is no longer 'core' to the fluff on the half elf, as it is from an older edition. There are campaign settings, such as Dragonlance that keep this, but I don't think Wizards wanted to introduce children to the idea of half elves and half orcs often being the result of rape, enough so that even children of love remind people of rape just by existing.

Generally speaking, the reasons that half elves wander is because their life span is so different from either human or elven. By the time they get close to being an adult in a human community, their friends likely all have kids of their own, and their human parent is likely long dead. If they grew up in an Elven community, then as they mature their friends seem less and less mature. At the same time, they are held back and viewed as children by the elven adults.

In either case, they feel entierly out of place, and so are highly likely to travel. Most will have experience with both human and elven communities, as well as being exposed to many races and many ways of life in their travels. They're also likely to have to find things like the local bar, or the local armory each time they get to a new town, and so are probably more used to asking around.

That's why I think the diplomacy bonus and gather information bonus are appropriate for a generic world half elves. In most settings where it isn't appropriate, the campaign documentation alters their stats.

MrNexx
2007-08-13, 12:15 AM
But that's a +1 LA, just for the fact that there is no balancing attribute penalty.

Not necessarily. Water Halflings, for example, have unbalanced attribute bonuses. Unbalanced bonuses, without much else, can make a +0 LA race.

Zincorium
2007-08-13, 12:19 AM
More to the point, slightly unbalanced ability scores are nowhere near enough to make up for the loss of an entire level. If the ability score difference isn't above +4, or no bonus is +6 or above, it's generally not going to be more powerful than a human with a bonus feat, because feats have a cumulative effect in terms of feat chains.

Kaelaroth
2007-08-13, 04:40 AM
In a campaign I was planning I was going to use "hybrids", which contained all the bonuses of both humans and elves, had extra arms, and were bloodthirsty war machines bred by evil liches.

If that helps.

Tengu
2007-08-13, 04:49 AM
MrNexx's boost is a bit too strong in my opinion. How about using them as RAW, but drop the bonus to diplomacy and gather information, and instead give them +2 charisma?

lord_khaine
2007-08-13, 04:56 AM
thats really not balanced either, Cha is a very good stat for both sorceres and paladins, so it should be balanced out by a penalty to another stat.

JackMage666
2007-08-13, 05:28 AM
I didn't say it wouldn't be a crappy +1 LA, but it's too strong for a +0 LA.
+2 Dex without any negative side effects is too strong for the basic races, especially since Dex is arguably the best stat - All characters need at least 12 Dex for any real effectiveness (That's refering to Fighters and Clerics in plain Full Plate, which still allows +1 Dex to AC). So, basically, Half-Elves with that variant get a +1 to AC, +1 to a load of skills, +1 to ranged (and some melee, with Weapon Focus) attack rolls, easier qualification for some feats, and so on. They're almost treated as small, without the penalties (almost, I say).

Serpentine
2007-08-13, 05:40 AM
In our campaign world, what bonus they get depends on how they're raised: an extra feat if by humans, and elven weapon proficiencies if by elves. 'Course, we've also given the half-orcs a boost, fixed the different races of elves to make the differences more flavour-based (and thus removing the +1LA of Drow), and tweaked here an there with the others (Goff's been doing the majority of this, and I think he didn't get around to dealing with the dwarves cuz he didn't quite know what to do with them).

Dant
2007-08-13, 10:03 AM
I saw an interesting idea on these boards once that made all skills class skills for a half-elf. I liked it. Possibly add in the extra human skill points on top.

MrNexx
2007-08-13, 11:26 AM
I didn't say it wouldn't be a crappy +1 LA, but it's too strong for a +0 LA.
+2 Dex without any negative side effects is too strong for the basic races, especially since Dex is arguably the best stat - All characters need at least 12 Dex for any real effectiveness (That's refering to Fighters and Clerics in plain Full Plate, which still allows +1 Dex to AC). So, basically, Half-Elves with that variant get a +1 to AC, +1 to a load of skills, +1 to ranged (and some melee, with Weapon Focus) attack rolls, easier qualification for some feats, and so on. They're almost treated as small, without the penalties (almost, I say).

I'd argue that Dex is the best stat; intelligence gives you bonuses to the number of skills you know, a wide variety of skills, and makes wizard spells more powerful. Wisdom improves a good number of skills, improves will saves, and improves cleric casting.

Important to me, however, is that the +2 Dex bonus matches the fluff usually associated with D&D half-elves... as graceful as elves, but solidly built, like humans. Aside from that, this half-elf has less bonuses than the PH version... a version which most agree is underpowered.

bugsysservant
2007-08-13, 12:39 PM
Yeah, MrNexx's changes are a bit strong for LA +0, but so are the Lesser Planetouched from FR. Although I do agree that charisma is better than dexterity. Charisma is supposed to represent force of will, and any half elf that reaches the minimum adventuring age will be very forcefull, as they have had to cope with being an outcast from both their societies for all their lives.

Sleet
2007-08-13, 01:45 PM
Either a bonus feat (like humans) or that extra skill point (like humans).

That's what I do.

Draz74
2007-08-13, 01:56 PM
http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/3431.html

Hmmm. OK, so, here's another way of looking at how this is overpowered.

First, assume that any gamer in his right mind will select the "Bonus Feat" option from the list of optional features.

Now, compare this Half-Elf to the standard Human (which is considered pretty good for a LA +0 race, slightly better than the elf/gnome/halfling options overall).

Your half-elf loses 1 extra skill point per level, and gains +2 Dex. I'd say that's an even tradeoff.

Then he gets (for free icing on the cake) Low-Light Vision, Elven Blood, and one other minor ability selectable from a list.

Except for builds that really need that extra skill point per level, this half-elf is strictly better than a human. Bad sign for game balance.

Chris_Chandler
2007-08-13, 02:13 PM
I give half-elves specific bonus feats, all from the "alertness" +2 to two skills range of feats, depending on the heritage of the 1/2 elf in question. There are 4 human subraces and 3 elven subraces in my homebrew, creating 7 different types of 1/2 elf (based on the mother's lineage, making it a bit easier). One subrace of human gains a +2 to DX but a -2 to ST, which, becuase of the ability overlap between the two races transfers to the 1/2 elf, in this case. It works pretty well. They aren't oozing with power, but gives a bit of flavor and a "free" mechanical edge in a few skills. I see no reason for limiting this to a single feat choice, but I'd leave that to the DM in question for a ruling.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-13, 03:06 PM
My "balanced" half-elf:
-Immunity to sleep, +2 vs. enchantment.
-Low light vision (half-elves have keener sight than humans)
-Elven and human blood (half-elves count as human and elven)

-Dodge as a bonus feat (while half-elves are not at graceful as their elven ancestors, they are still more so than their human counterparts)

OR Weapon Focus (longsword, long bow, short bow, or rapier) as a bonus feat (half-elves try to pay homage to their ancestry by mastering a traditional weapon)

-4 extra skill points at first level, one at every level therafter (half-elves are as versitile and capable as their human ancestors if raised amongst them).

OR Proficiency with Longswords, Long Bows, Short Bows, and Rapiers (half-elves learn amongst their elven peers how to handle their traditional weapons).

MrNexx
2007-08-13, 03:33 PM
My "balanced" half-elf:
-Immunity to sleep, +2 vs. enchantment.
-Low light vision (half-elves have keener sight than humans)
-Elven blood

-Dodge as a bonus feat (while half-elves are not at graceful as their elven ancestors, they are still more so than their human counterparts)

OR Weapon Focus (longsword, long bow, short bow, rapier) as a bonus feat (half-elves try to pay homage to their ancestry by mastering a traditional weapon)

-4 extra skill points at first level, one at every level therafter (half-elves are as versitile and capable as their human ancestors if raised amongst them).

OR Proficiency with Longswords, Long Bows, Short Bows, and Rapiers (half-elves learn amongst their elven peers how to handle their traditional weapons).

I like this one; I like it better than mine. Just a question about the Weapon Focus... is that for all the weapons, or pick one?

And can I talk you into posting it to the Cranky Gamer, either under your name, or I post it with credit to you?

BardicDuelist
2007-08-13, 04:31 PM
Thank you for the compliment MrNexx. I meant it to be with one weapon, will change that. You can post it on there and credit me if you like.

MrNexx
2007-08-13, 04:44 PM
Thank you for the compliment MrNexx. I meant it to be with one weapon, will change that. You can post it on there and credit me if you like.

http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/3431.html?thread=22119#t22119

X15lm204
2007-08-13, 05:58 PM
Whenever I've seen a half-elf played really well, they tend to have personalities along the lines of either Captain Carrot Ironfoundersson of the Discworld series or Devis as presented in the D&D series by 'T. H. Lain.' In part because of this, in my games half-elves have the following racial traits:


+2 Charisma, -2 Wisdom: Half-elves are experts at dealing with the people around them, but have trouble focusing and are often lacking in common sense.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting effects: Half-elves know how to seperate what is going on in their heads from what is happening in the real world.
+2 racial bonus on Listen, Spot, and Search checks, and Low Light Vision: Half-elves inherit their elven parent's keen senses.
Gain Gather Information and Knowledge (Local) as permanent class skills; if both already would be class skills at 1st level, +1 racial bonus on these skills: Half-elves make it their business to know as much as possible about their homes and the places they visit.
Elven Blood
Favored Class: Bard


To avoid overlap (and because I think it makes more sense anyway) Gnomes in my games have a Favored Class of Sorceror.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-13, 10:05 PM
I understand fav. class bard (since I think 80% if the half-elven characters that I've played with are bards), and most of your things, except the ability modifiers. Humans and elves are neither charismatic nor unwise, so why would a half-elf be these things? That means that druid (which is a class that half-elves are said to be good for, though it is mostly for fluff reasons) would be a very poor choice, and that half-elves have a weak will (which doesn't make sense for a race that is known for being independant in most settings).

X15lm204
2007-08-13, 11:52 PM
I figured the ability modifiers would be the biggest problem people had with this, not only because it requires some explaination but also because it makes them the only main race with a bonus to a mental score. I chose to give half-elves a bonus to charisma because of the sort of lives they would be forced to lead: in order to make it in a society where everyone ages either faster or slower than them, where people would expect them to act in a way that doesn't come naturally to them, and nobody knows what to do with them, they would have to exert strong personalities and be experts at dealing with people. Also, a great deal of the fluff I've read about them makes them out as natural diplomats and ambassadors between humans and elves. As for the wisdom penalty, I don't have quite as concrete a reason, but the people I've met who are really good at dealing with people tend to be out of touch with themselves and the impersonal world. I settled on that because I couldn't find a reason to penalize any other ability score: humans have no penalties, and half-elves are specifically described as being tougher than their elven parents. Their racial bonus against mind-affecting effects was included to keep them from being 'weak willed' - a half-elf character might take a while to notice that the demon the illusionist he's fighting summoned isn't entirely there, but can easily shake off an attack on his mind with a phantasmal killer spell, for instance. As for half-elves making good druids, I must have missed that bit of fluff. In fact, the only half-elven divine caster I can remember ever hearing of was a cleric who focussed more on tanking than casting (Edit: Oh, and a Favored Soul as well. But that's a Cha based class.)

Matthew
2007-08-14, 02:09 AM
Here are a few links to Homebrew Board proposed fixes:

Ocato’s Half Orc and Half Elf Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43887)
Iames Osari’s Half Orc and Half Elf Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44079)
Smiley X’s Half Orc and Half Elf Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49588)

BardicDuelist
2007-08-14, 02:15 AM
The only thing from those that I like is making a half-elf count as elven and human (I always used it that way, just never realized that it wasn't intended by RAW). Made that change to mine.

Matthew
2007-08-14, 02:23 AM
Personally, I would be inclined to do it like this:


Half Elf

Size: Medium
Speed: 30 Feet
Vision: Lowlight Vision
Skills: +2 Racial Bonus on Hide, Listen, Search, Sneak and Spot Checks
Feats: One Bonus Feat at Level 1.
Traits: Mixed Blood: For all effects related to race, a Half-Elf is considered an both an Elf and a Human.
Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass Half-Elf takes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count.

MrNexx
2007-08-14, 02:48 AM
Why those skills?

And why are so many of us up so late (for me, it's just shy of 3am)

X15lm204
2007-08-14, 02:50 AM
Bah.

Sleep is for the wenhjnnmju

Ow. Now I have keyboard marks on my forehead.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-14, 02:50 AM
And why are so many of us up so late (for me, it's just shy of 3am)

It's almost 4 here...

Matthew
2007-08-14, 02:54 AM
Why those skills?

Cause I'm a holdover from the 2e Elves :smallwink:. They just strike me as appropriate. The idea is that over ten levels Humans get +23 Skill Points, so +10 Racial Bonus is probably not out of line. Honestly, any Skills would do, so long as you could justify them as a Player Character.


And why are so many of us up so late (for me, it's just shy of 3am)

Hey it's 9am here and GitP is just about ready to go offline for its usual 9-10am downtime.

† Dran †
2007-08-14, 03:01 AM
personally this is what id like to see

1) +1 to dex -1 to con, represents their elven side nicely imo.
2) +2 skill points at lvl1 and +1 skill point every 2 lvls after that (aka 1,3,5,7,9 ext) Human side of things
3) drop the social stuff and give them the full elven bonus to spot search ext

just my idea for them *shrugs* Dont think its really all that unbalanced.

Freshmeat
2007-08-14, 03:44 AM
Half Elf

Size: Medium
Speed: 30 Feet
Vision: Lowlight Vision
Skills: +2 Racial Bonus on Hide, Listen, Search, Sneak and Spot Checks
Feats: One Bonus Feat at Level 1.
Traits: Mixed Blood: For all effects related to race, a Half-Elf is considered an both an Elf and a Human.
Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass Half-Elf takes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count

I strongly dislike this. First of all, it's too similar to human. Secondly, while only slightly, it's better than human. Could be argued, but this is how I see it:

- Both get a bonus feat, so no point in discussing who comes out 'ahead' here
- Humans get +4 skill points at first level; half-elves get +2 to hide, listen, search, sneak and spot, for a grand total of 10 extra skill points. Granted, unlike the 4 skill points you can't choose where you want to place them, but I'd still give this one to the half-elves.
- Humans get an extra skill point each subsequent level. Nice, but does this hold up to the half-elves' mixed blood, bonus language and lowlight vision? More often than not (barring high-levels) it doesn't.

I wouldn't remove the elves resistance to enchantments either. If elves get it, it stands to reason that half-elves should too (limited, perhaps, but at least something).

Saithis Bladewing
2007-08-14, 04:03 AM
I just give them a flat +1 skill points/level (x4 at first) if I decide to use base races and not my own.

Matthew
2007-08-14, 04:04 AM
Heh, well you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Anywho, no, the Racial Bonuses to Skills are meant to equate to the 23 Skill Points gained over time for Humans, not just the 4 they get at Level 1.

There are advantages and disadvantages to having any Bloodline, as you are also susceptable to effects that target that Race, as well as able to do things that only that Race can. As I understand it, there are very few actual occasions where Bloodlines come into play.

I always hated the Elf resistance to Enchantments, but there's no accounting for taste. :smallwink:

Orzel
2007-08-14, 04:24 AM
Half Elf


Medium: As Medium creatures, half-elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Half-elf base land speed is 30 feet.
Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.
Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
+1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
Skill Focus: Half Elves receive the Skill Focus feat for any two skills of their choice.
Weapon Proficiency: Half Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat for any weapon of their choice.
Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf.
Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-elf takes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count.


Lose the +2/+2 skill bonus for 3 free weak feats.