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Abstruse
2007-08-12, 06:16 PM
Seriously, the things you're able to call up with the summon monster spells are so woefully underpowered for the level at which you're casting them as to be pitiful. "Ooooh, look, at level 5 I've summoned up two CR 2 scorpions... which the ogres just crushed with one blow apiece. Well, THAT was a wasted spell..."

Doesn't it seem as though they should be able to provide something closer to challenging to whatever it is you'd be facing at the levels you gain those spells?

Reinboom
2007-08-12, 06:28 PM
Well, I think that summoning spells should be a bit more powerful, but not enough to be worthy of what you are facing.
If they are a challenge to what you are facing, then one could conceivably just summon monster twice and destroy the encounter with minimal resources used.
Also, note, you are a spellcaster. You can summon monster and then use your mass buffs (such as haste for wizards) to give them that slight edge.

The current summoning line is really only useful for tactics. Distraction, provide flanking, provide a creature to be in the way while you escape, etc.

the_tick_rules
2007-08-12, 06:29 PM
cause your not using them right.

Orzel
2007-08-12, 06:37 PM
cause your not using them right.

What he said.

Abstruse
2007-08-12, 06:43 PM
cause your not using them right.

Which begs the question, how would you use them?

Amiria
2007-08-12, 06:47 PM
Without a good summoner build they are rather pitiful.

Be a specialist wizzzard (conjuration)
with the Rapid Summoning variant from Unearthed Arcana
with the Augment Summoning feat.
with the Master Specialist PrC (CMag)

Saph
2007-08-12, 06:50 PM
Druids are the summoning class, not wizards.

Summon Nature's Ally spells with Augment Summoning aren't pitiful, they're lethal. You can wipe out entire encounters with them once you get to level 5 or so.

- Saph

ArmorArmadillo
2007-08-12, 06:53 PM
Seriously, the things you're able to call up with the summon monster spells are so woefully underpowered for the level at which you're casting them as to be pitiful. "Ooooh, look, at level 5 I've summoned up two CR 2 scorpions... which the ogres just crushed with one blow apiece. Well, THAT was a wasted spell..."

Doesn't it seem as though they should be able to provide something closer to challenging to whatever it is you'd be facing at the levels you gain those spells?
And by the ogres using their blows to kill your two scorpions they didn't use those blows to kill you, and if they don't kill them your rogue gets free flanking.

The problem is that people expect these summon spells to have a significant effect on the fight as though they were a PC, they aren't. They're distractions, summoned in one turn. If they last 2 that's a long time.

Also, if they only use aid another actions they can easily give allies +2 bonuses to Attack or AC.

Finally, Summons can trip traps, scout areas, provide transportation, and test rickety bridges without worry.

Jacob Orlove
2007-08-12, 07:02 PM
Druids are the summoning class, not wizards.

Summon Nature's Ally spells with Augment Summoning aren't pitiful, they're lethal. You can wipe out entire encounters with them once you get to level 5 or so.

- Saph
Druids also get excellent buffs to use on their summoned creatures, and a much better list of targets with SNA than SM. The problem is that all the SM creatures are templated, which can give them some mildly useful DR/5 magic or whatever, but the SNA creatures are just better instead (wolves are SNA I instead of SM II, elementals are better all up and down the SNA line, etc).

Gralamin
2007-08-12, 07:08 PM
Summon spells?
The best summon of all is astral construct in my opinion.
Wizard's aren't good at summoning because that is not what they are good at.
Druid's are good at summoning because that is one of the things they are supposed to be good at.

arkol
2007-08-12, 07:10 PM
I'm actually just starting a campaing where I'll be a cleric summoner. Yes cleric. Raptoran.. with cleric substitution levels, air domain and of course augmented summoning.

So at lvl 3 I can already summon small air elementals who last 4 rounds instead of 3 and have +4hp, +1 to hit and +3 damage.

The Glyphstone
2007-08-12, 07:29 PM
Summon spells?
The best summon of all is astral construct in my opinion.
Wizard's aren't good at summoning because that is not what they are good at.
Druid's are good at summoning because that is one of the things they are supposed to be good at.

Astral Construct is fantastic, so long as you ignore the SplatBook That Shall Not Be Named. If you are forced to acknowledge its existence, and can't get the 'one construct at a time" houseruled into oblivion, it becomes mediocre at best - though still head and shoulders over Summon Monster spells.

Jacob Orlove
2007-08-12, 07:29 PM
If you're a Cleric, grab the Summoning domain if you can. It's excellent.

Wolfwood2
2007-08-12, 07:36 PM
Summoning is okay. If you're a wizard, it works best in conjunction with other party members.

At lower levels, Invisibility + Summons can be pretty nice for a wizard who doesn't want to get attacked.

Bosh
2007-08-12, 09:45 PM
Summoning + ambushes are incredibly powerful. If you can hit the enemy with a whole bunch of summoned creatures in the first round its almost impossible to lose...

Josh the Aspie
2007-08-12, 10:54 PM
I agree. Construct rocks. And I actually am using said hated splat book and I have been kicking rear with my irridecent serpent in a campaign I'm in. Those creatures are actually more effective than our ToB unarmed warrior, our currently un-mounted mounted fighting paladin, or our rapier wielding finesse fighter.

Dausuul
2007-08-12, 11:10 PM
Summoning + ambushes are incredibly powerful. If you can hit the enemy with a whole bunch of summoned creatures in the first round its almost impossible to lose...

Yeah, I think you have to view summon spells in the context of an ambush. If you summon them in the middle of combat, they're apt to die as fast as they appear--you trade your action for one opponent's action, and a caster can usually get a better deal than that. That's assuming you even get the spell off, thanks to the one-round casting time. But if you summon before the fight, you can put together a small army, haste them (have the party cleric toss in some of those AoE clerical buffs for extra goodness), then tear the enemy apart.

PyritePyro
2007-08-12, 11:11 PM
I agree. Construct rocks. And I actually am using said hated splat book and I have been kicking rear with my irridecent serpent in a campaign I'm in. Those creatures are actually more effective than our ToB unarmed warrior, our currently un-mounted mounted fighting paladin, or our rapier wielding finesse fighter.

The Rapier finesse fighter I can see, with improved crit and stuff, but why would you be an unmounted paladin? Since one of the major benefits is the special mount. I could kinda understand trading it in for an animal companion with another name, but, it just feels a little gimp to me.

Starbuck_II
2007-08-12, 11:11 PM
Seriously, the things you're able to call up with the summon monster spells are so woefully underpowered for the level at which you're casting them as to be pitiful. "Ooooh, look, at level 5 I've summoned up two CR 2 scorpions... which the ogres just crushed with one blow apiece. Well, THAT was a wasted spell..."

Doesn't it seem as though they should be able to provide something closer to challenging to whatever it is you'd be facing at the levels you gain those spells?

What about Spiders? Web? Yes please. Yes, you need to hit with a touch attack to hit like a net, but common, how can they miss.

Webbing from a spider acts like entangle. It can be used on one one size larger. So you need a Meduim spider for an ogre. Ogres are CR 3 so you'll need to be level 3 at least to see them so you can summon one.

And each spider has 7 uses of web.

Remember: they get stuck to ground, entangled (-2 to hit, penalty to dex, etc). They waste an action to get out of being stuck. You just won an extra action.
You win either way.

SM 1:
Small spiders so up to meduim are webbed.
Bobardier Beetles: have acid attack
SM 2:
Centipede large has 7 grapple.
Med Spider can web large or smaller.
Med Viper deal 1d6 con, but fort save is low (DC 11), augment summon raises DC by 2.
SM 3:
Dire Weasel can deal 1d4 Con/rd, but needs to be attached first.
Monstrous Centipede Huge: Grapple +15 (huge at level 5 when get this spell).
SM 4:
Lions have pounce
Large Spider can web huge creatures.
Huge Viper can deal 1d6 Con, but with DC 14 fort (still low but okay).
SM 6:
Gargantuan Centipede has Grapple +27.
Huge Spider can get 1 size larger Gargantuan.

Centipedes are awesome grapplers when they get larger for the spell level.

In general, Celestial/infernal creatures are good versus magic as have spell resistance.

Josh the Aspie
2007-08-12, 11:52 PM
The Rapier finesse fighter I can see, with improved crit and stuff, but why would you be an unmounted paladin? Since one of the major benefits is the special mount. I could kinda understand trading it in for an animal companion with another name, but, it just feels a little gimp to me.

Well he's currently unmounted because we're going into a dungeon, and our DM time lapsed us there without our mounts, and he didn't rock the boat.

Turcano
2007-08-12, 11:53 PM
If you can justify taking the Rashemi Elemental Summoning feat from Unapproachable East, by all means do so. Cone of cold for air elementals and Engulf for earth elementals? Yes.

silvadel
2007-08-12, 11:57 PM
Summoning spells used to be a lot more useful when they used to last long enough for the summoned monsters to serve as mounts, or to scout for you, or to do other things beyond 10 rounds of combat...

As for improved summoned monsters -- arcana evolved handles their summoned monsters a little differently and a little better than standard imho.

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-13, 12:51 AM
Using summoned monsters as grapplers works out pretty good.

horseboy
2007-08-13, 01:13 AM
Summoning spells used to be a lot more useful when they used to last long enough for the summoned monsters to serve as mounts, or to scout for you, or to do other things beyond 10 rounds of combat...

As for improved summoned monsters -- arcana evolved handles their summoned monsters a little differently and a little better than standard imho.

Yeah, I thought they used to be longer did they change that from 2-3 or 3-3.5?

MrNexx
2007-08-13, 02:01 AM
Yeah, I thought they used to be longer did they change that from 2-3 or 3-3.5?

2-3, but not by much (Summon Monster I, a 3rd level spell, lasted 2rnds +1rnd per level; though, to be fair, the original 2nd edition round was a minute long)

Merlin the Tuna
2007-08-13, 02:03 AM
A few of the Summon Monster spells are extremely useful for Sorcerers simply because the monsters can come with a variety of SLAs to expand their versatility. Summon Monster 4, for example, gets you every Mephit around, and each of them comes with at least one SLA with non-personal range. Granted, it's a bit slow for immediate combat use, but they can be solid utility and can open up battles well if you've got the drop on your enemies.

Kioran
2007-08-13, 02:42 AM
Or burrow out of a landslide you´ve been caught in. Point being that Summoning spells are seldom high powered, but almost always useful, for utility or in combat. Augment Summoning goes a long way though, and you should take if you want to make use of them. Bear in mind that this works for Core. In Splatbooked campaigns, you need to splatbook-optimize your summoning as well......

Kurald Galain
2007-08-13, 02:49 AM
which begs the question...

why on earth are the summon spells a full round action?

Leon
2007-08-13, 03:01 AM
Druids are the summoning class, not wizards.

Summon Nature's Ally spells with Augment Summoning aren't pitiful, they're lethal. You can wipe out entire encounters with them once you get to level 5 or so.

- Saph

Key Word "Once", prior to that they are pitulful.

i decided to try out a SNA spell last session, it was a waste of a spell slot - could have prepared something so much better. Maybe once im higher level and can Summon Elementals but at low levels they blow

cupkeyk
2007-08-13, 03:33 AM
Well he's currently unmounted because we're going into a dungeon, and our DM time lapsed us there without our mounts, and he didn't rock the boat.

Paladin Variants without mounts are better than mounted paladins(which are forced to be halfling and thus have a str penalty). Divine Spirit from Dundeonscape, for instance.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-13, 03:39 AM
Summoned Monsters are good for battlefield control and flanking for rogue sneak attacking.

Summon them into the middle of a group of charging whatevers. If they stop to smash the summoned thingies, you've stopped them that round. If they don't, then summoned thingies get AoO and stuff. If you get something rather obnoxious to get hit by (those scorpions with poison, for instance), you can really cause a lot of havoc.

kamikasei
2007-08-13, 04:16 AM
i decided to try out a SNA spell last session, it was a waste of a spell slot - could have prepared something so much better. Maybe once im higher level and can Summon Elementals but at low levels they blow

Were you a druid? I thought preparing a summoning spell, as a druid, was as bad an idea as preparing a cure spell as a cleric?

Perhaps if you only cast your summoning spells spontaneously as you find a use for them, so you could have a full prepared range of spells at the start of the day, you would find them less troublesome?

Hopeless
2007-08-13, 04:57 AM
Seriously, the things you're able to call up with the summon monster spells are so woefully underpowered for the level at which you're casting them as to be pitiful. "Ooooh, look, at level 5 I've summoned up two CR 2 scorpions... which the ogres just crushed with one blow apiece. Well, THAT was a wasted spell..."

Doesn't it seem as though they should be able to provide something closer to challenging to whatever it is you'd be facing at the levels you gain those spells?

Take a careful look at the list of creatures present in each summoning list in the phb or other sourcebook and then look at the Monster Manual, it strikes me that the phb list is more intended as a list of suggestions rather than a strict limit on what monsters can be summoned and then there's the fact Celestial and Fiends are actually templates to be added on top of these creatures even if some dm's refuse to accept that detail as they really don't care for originality on the part of players who actually try to roleplay (sorry long story won't bore you with it!)

I had my cleric summon celestial squid and was laughed at for my actions and then had the dm claim they could only be fiendish which is pointless since you're just limiting what can be summoned when a summoner or conjuror is an actual specialisation of the wizard so why place limits on something that has them built in, this is a game why shouldn't it be enjoyable than pander to someone who has no respect for what its all about?

Overlard
2007-08-13, 05:22 AM
Were you a druid? I thought preparing a summoning spell, as a druid, was as bad an idea as preparing a cure spell as a cleric?

Perhaps if you only cast your summoning spells spontaneously as you find a use for them, so you could have a full prepared range of spells at the start of the day, you would find them less troublesome?
Maybe he's playing a spirit shaman?

Ivellios
2007-08-13, 06:11 AM
There are classes and abilities that aid in summoning and increase the power of the summoned creatures too. Alienists gain extra spells per day for the express purpose of summoning monsters. As a bonus, every monster summoned gains the pseudonatral template, which gives bonuses such as damage reduction and energy resistance. High level spells let you summon lots of monsters in a short amount of time. Given enough monsters, your opponents will be overwhelmed, regardless of how strong/weak the monsters are.

Leon
2007-08-13, 06:45 AM
Were you a druid? I thought preparing a summoning spell, as a druid, was as bad an idea as preparing a cure spell as a cleric?

Perhaps if you only cast your summoning spells spontaneously as you find a use for them, so you could have a full prepared range of spells at the start of the day, you would find them less troublesome?

Druidic Avenger doesnt have spontaneous casting.
i can see how it "may" be useful in some instances but not all the time and at the low levels that we are at its duration is laughable - certinly not going to expend my Extend on it

As for the Other "bad Idea" above - our Cleric does prepare healing magic, its better than a spontaneous one.

Saph
2007-08-13, 07:58 AM
Key Word "Once", prior to that they are pitulful.

i decided to try out a SNA spell last session, it was a waste of a spell slot - could have prepared something so much better. Maybe once im higher level and can Summon Elementals but at low levels they blow

They're effective from about 3rd-level, deadly from 5th-level, and are battle-winners at 7th-level and afterwards. You don't need Elementals, either.

At level 3, you get Summon Nature's Ally II. With Augment Summoning, this gives you a Black Bear that has 25 HP, Speed 40, AC 13, 2 claws +8 (1d4+6), and a bite +3 (1d6+3). That'll last for 3 rounds, and you'll probably get full attacks on at least 2 of them. That's already pretty powerful.

At level 5, you get Summon Nature's Ally III. Summon an Augmented Lion, have it charge, and you get five attacks, four at +11, and a very good chance of it grabbing the target and attacking five more times next turn.

At level 7, you get Summon Nature's Ally IV. Summon a Giant Crocodile. It'll eat just about anything.

Druid summoning is very powerful, one of the most powerful tactics available at the mid-levels. You can do huge amounts of damage without being at any risk at all.

- Saph

Ethdred
2007-08-13, 08:11 AM
Summoned monsters are not supposed to be a win button but can be very useful when used properly, even unbuffed. At first level, you can get an ally with scent, which negates your opponent's invisibility. Webs have been mentioned, which are useful in combat, but even more useful if you are trying to escape. It's not often that you'll summon something to be a major combatant (certainly at low levels), but knowing the different abilities can be very handy. And then there's the flanking, aid another, ambush style attacks (earth glide anyone?).

But I can't work out why they are full round castings either.

Though in one party I was in, the celestial badger was a more useful melee fighter than some of the party up to about 3rd level. But then we did have a bard.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-13, 08:32 AM
But I can't work out why they are full round castings either.

The most important resource in D&D is actions. Summoning a creature gives your side more actions. The balancing gnomes clearly thought that allowing you to summon something and that that something could get an action as well as the one you used to summon it would be too powerful.

Mainly though, if you summoned something that could summon things, and it got to go immediately, then it could summon something, which could go immediately and summon something and...you get the idea.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-13, 09:16 AM
Greenbound summoning, for brokenness. Rashimi Elemental summoning is slightly better after level 13 or something, but greenbound wins basically everything.

Only issue is, you can't use animal-only buffs.

The Glyphstone
2007-08-13, 09:20 AM
Mainly though, if you summoned something that could summon things, and it got to go immediately, then it could summon something, which could go immediately and summon something and...you get the idea.

See Also: Gate and the Infinite Titans, though that's not a discussion for this here. Gate isn't a Summoning spell, it's a [Calling] Spell, so it can be broken without derailing this thread.:smallsmile:

Leon
2007-08-13, 10:43 AM
They're effective from about 3rd-level, deadly from 5th-level, and are battle-winners at 7th-level and afterwards. You don't need Elementals, either.
- Saph

Maybe in Standard, im in Darksun where a lot of the normal Animals are not on my list - SNA 2 had a Medium Snake and some thing else small and worthless, Also with DS Elementals are more thematic for my PC, who along with the anti Mage aspect is aming for a Earth Elemtalist feel




Druid summoning is very powerful, one of the most powerful tactics available at the mid-levels. You can do huge amounts of damage without being at any risk at all.
- Saph

We'll see when i get to mid levels - currently i like the Summon Dire Hawk spell over any SNA spells

Dont get me wrong, there are usefull things that can be done - but from my experiances thus far (all over - not just in DS) ive not seen summons do a great deal, maybe as no one has played a Summoner.

the Malconever PrC looks like a nice deal, same with the Thaumatgrist

Abstruse
2007-08-13, 12:39 PM
OK, speaking of summoning... if you use the Imbue Summoning feat in PHBII, would the concurrently-cast spell affect all of the summoned creatures? (For example, could you drop, say, Mage Armor or Bull's Strength on all of them with the feat?

Tokiko Mima
2007-08-13, 01:04 PM
There is one question I've always wanted to know about summoning... Why is the grig listed in Summon Natures Ally IX (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyIX.htm)?

Because a grig is kinda a pathetically weak summon for a 9th level spell. Sure it has Irresistable Dance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibleDance.htm), but there's a DC on that of 12! (Normally Irresistable Dance has no save. that's what makes it cool.) I think most people of that level will manage a DC 12 save, so what in the world makes the grig so awesome that it rates SNA IX?

Leicontis
2007-08-13, 02:53 PM
Starting at level 9 druids become ridiculously powerful.
Round 1: Cast Summon Nature's Ally V (summoning 3rd or 4th level creatures)
Round 2: Cast Animal Growth on the summons and your animal companion (and/or yourself if you have Natural Spell)
Rounds 3-end of combat: Censored due to extreme violence and gore

Animal Growth is probably one of the most broken spells in the game - essentially a mass-Riteous Might for animals.

When you're up against something with SR and/or energy resistances, summoning is very nice, especially if it's something you're not eager to get close to (came in really useful against mindflayers).

Obviously, summoning spells aren't supposed to be any more powerful than any other spells. Admittedly, the duration is short - at first or second level, a summoned creature isn't around long enough to do much of anything in straight combat. On the other hand, carefully-placed summons can drastically alter the course of a battle simply by distracting opponents. Who really wants to provoke an AoO from something venomous? Everyone in melee appreciates a flanking backboard.

JWhitehead
2007-08-14, 11:27 AM
It may sound odd but the cleric I played last year always made sure to keep at least 1 summon memorised. In fact I wrote it down in my spell list as summon mook x

near every time it was a monkey; for the hands. I dont know how many celestial monkies bit the dust in the campaign but it was easilly two figures worth.
they were so usefull for triggering traps of all sorts, drinking and wading through strange unidentifiable and possibly toxic liquids and throwing off enemy spellcasters who had the temerity to ready spells against us.

I dont think I ever once used the spell for combat puposes but I would still list it as one of my top ten favourite utility spells

and as an addendum, my cleric wes c.n with evil tendancies, the party was distinctly neutral good. the occasional bout of animal cruelty was a great outlet for the poor guy:smallbiggrin:

SpikeFightwicky
2007-08-14, 11:36 AM
I have a question regarding using summoned monsters as 'trap monkeys':

- Summoned monsters don't last long. At 20th level, your monster will stick around for 2 minutes... so it's not the kind of thing you can have always out and ready to trip a trap.

- If you don't have a rogue (or equivalent trap searcher) in your party, you'll likely never know when/where a trap is.

- If you do have a rogue (or equivalent trap searcher) in your party, you can disable the trap at not charge (unless the rogue pooches his roll).

So with all that said, if you have a rogue, you don't need a trap monkey summoned monster. If not, you're going to waste alot of spells keeping minions around to spring traps for you, since you never know when they'll hit.

Alot of people stand by the 'Summoned monsters are good at springing traps' motif, so I'm missing something, somewhere. Is there a way to make them more useful than I think?

JWhitehead
2007-08-14, 11:44 AM
i think there are quite often cases where something is trapped and you know it and dont want to risk the rogue finding out
eg ominous golden motes in the air in one case for us.
(they sucked out life force)
or big doors at the top of abandoned towers..
or random fountains in dungeons
not every trap has a disable dc...

SpikeFightwicky
2007-08-14, 12:02 PM
It's true they don't all have a disable DC, but alot of them can be resolved by adventurer common sense.

I'm not sure about those golden motes, but did they stop sucking life after absorbing a summoned monster? If so, just grab a rat and toss it through. If not, well, the summoned monster won't do anything to stop it anyways.

Big doors in towers? If the original tenant wanted the tower to stay squatter proof, there'd be alot of the traps that are of the automatic reset variety. If not, go ahead and use your summoned monster, but if there's no trap (or the original trap has been sprung), wasted spell...

Fountain in a dungeon? Who'd fall for that? If the adventurers are so desperate for a drink, they can drink from their waterskins. And create water is a 0th level spell.

Chances are that if it doesn't have a disable DC, sending a summoned monster to check on it won't resolve the situation.


EDIT: I suppose I could see keeping a spell slot, or buying a bunch of scrolls could come in handy as a 'diagnosis' of whatever trap/obstacle you're encountering. I wouldn't devote any higher slots than lvl 1 for this, though. That and the idea of a celestial/abyssal monkey doing all the dirty work seems quite entertaining.

Aquillion
2007-08-14, 12:52 PM
Well he's currently unmounted because we're going into a dungeon, and our DM time lapsed us there without our mounts, and he didn't rock the boat.Er, a Paladin's mount isn't like a horse you buy at a store. Just rest for a day before going into the dungeon, then they can summon it again when needed... doesn't matter where you saw it last. It's not quite so useful in enclosed spaces, but it can still be nice to be able to pull it out in a pinch.

JWhitehead
2007-08-14, 01:02 PM
EDIT: I suppose I could see keeping a spell slot, or buying a bunch of scrolls could come in handy as a 'diagnosis' of whatever trap/obstacle you're encountering. I wouldn't devote any higher slots than lvl 1 for this, though. That and the idea of a celestial/abyssal monkey doing all the dirty work seems quite entertaining.


thats more or less what it was there for. our dm had a nasty sense of humour and playing safe was always preferable to rolling a new rogue. I beiliev in 10 sessions he got through 5, )not through ineptitude I may add) also yes animal cruelty always provides a modicum of comic relief

leperkhaun
2007-08-14, 02:47 PM
Personally i would never make a pure summoner, but thats a personal prefrence of mine. I think iv made a specalist wizard once.

Iv found that summoned monsters can be a great help, although i wouldnt say they were as usefull for direct damage as say a fireball.

For my wizards i use summoned monsters for a couple reasons

1) Take the hits. If the mob is killing something i summoned thats darn near the same as me healing my buddies.

2) flank the mobs. the added attack bonus and also the ability to have say 10 monkies running around flanking for the rogue is great. No longer gotta spring attack something your fighter is fighting

3) Crowd control. Alot of monsters have speical abilities that make them great for controling a situation. If the mob hits my monster thats good, if the mob ignores it thats also good. There is nothing like a pair of wolves who keep on tripping that 5 attack critter of doom so it doesnt get a full attack option.

4) the Grapple - I enjoy this the most. That mage who can hurl doom is a lot less effective when he spends half the fight grappling your monster. That super dex AC guerrilla fighter cant do much if he is grappled.

5) You got minions I got minions - Some times you fight someone/thing that has a decent amount of low powered minions that can just make the fight misrable. Summons can help distract those minions while you nail the important ones.

MrNexx
2007-08-14, 03:27 PM
4) the Grapple - I enjoy this the most. That mage who can hurl doom is a lot less effective when he spends half the fight grappling your monster. That super dex AC guerrilla fighter cant do much if he is grappled.


One of my favorites is to summon a snake or something similar directly on top of my opponents.

leperkhaun
2007-08-14, 03:35 PM
One of my favorites is to summon a snake or something similar directly on top of my opponents.


hehe a player friend of mine once asked......... how much damage would a blue whale do if i dropped it 60 feet on that guy's head?

dyslexicfaser
2007-08-14, 04:59 PM
Unfortunately, they errata'd that to make it so you couldn't summon aquatic creatures like whales on land.

Jack_Simth
2007-08-14, 05:54 PM
Unfortunately, they errata'd that to make it so you couldn't summon aquatic creatures like whales on land.
Can't Summon anything into an environment which can't support it.

It's a good thing - Summon Monster II (Fiendish monstrous centipede, Large) would be an encounter-killer with the Falling Object rules if you could put the critter wherever - especially at 3rd, when you get it.

goat
2007-08-14, 06:06 PM
Summon Swarm is a lovely spell. Duration of concentration +2 rounds, can have effects on enemies with bad saves. You just have to make sure you're never the closest to it.

PinkysBrain
2007-08-14, 06:20 PM
Maybe in Standard, im in Darksun where a lot of the normal Animals are not on my list - SNA 2 had a Medium Snake and some thing else small and worthless, Also with DS Elementals are more thematic for my PC, who along with the anti Mage aspect is aming for a Earth Elemtalist feel
In the PDF from the Burnt World of Athas site the black bear and lion are still in there.

Corolinth
2007-08-14, 07:03 PM
Twice now I've watched my party's sorcerer help win fights with well-placed summoned monsters to clog up the battlefield and hamper movement.

horseboy
2007-08-14, 08:00 PM
2-3, but not by much (Summon Monster I, a 3rd level spell, lasted 2rnds +1rnd per level; though, to be fair, the original 2nd edition round was a minute long)
Huh, I keep hearing about laMauxntaine (sp) and his "holy buffalo" thing. Something about summon celestial bison, imbue with spell like ability, shield other and something like etherealness so he only got hit 1/2 the time. He then used the combo to run all the way through dungeons to find out what/where stuff was and to survive it. Not sure how he got it to hang around long enough though. (Second hand story, not sure exactly how he did it)

But yeah, anytime there's a long, ominous corridor you summon something to go first.

PinkysBrain
2007-08-14, 08:08 PM
Celestial Bizon at it's level is very good ... but the SM list doesn't have many of those kinds of gems.

Abstruse
2007-08-14, 10:22 PM
Yet another random question, the answer to which is (I'm dead certain) an ardent "Hell no!"

If you have spell focus (conjuration), which the SRD defines as:


Choose a school of magic.
Benefit
Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against spells from the school of magic you select.

That would not add to the DC of various effects belonging to any summoned creatures, right? As in, a fiendish scorpion's poison DC wouldn't increase, a spider's webs wouldn't be harder to get out of, and so forth?

MrNexx
2007-08-14, 10:36 PM
No, it wouldn't improve the save v. special abilities of summoned creatures. That would improve, in some cases, if you had Augmented Summoning, and the DCs were based on Strength or Constitution.

Wonderpus
2007-08-14, 10:40 PM
If your DM is flexible (mine is), design your own summoning lists for the summon monster spells. This has multiple advantages -- not only can you change the lists to make the wizard conjurer a bit less weak, you can customize the monsters on the list to fit a certain RP flavor (my current character is a dwarven summoner wizard, so I have a small earth elemental on my SM2 list).

For a first stab you can match CRs (I think this was also discussed in UA, under themed summoning lists) -- SM1 = ~CR1/2, SM2 = CR1, SM3 = CR2, SM4 = CR3, SM5 = CR4-5, etc.

Starbuck_II
2007-08-14, 11:21 PM
Summon Swarm is a lovely spell. Duration of concentration +2 rounds, can have effects on enemies with bad saves. You just have to make sure you're never the closest to it.

A better Swarm spell is Summon Desert Ally (I forget which level) because: Sandform swarms exist and unlike the Swarm spell you control it.

Hyrael
2007-08-15, 12:22 AM
Actually, I'm playing as a Summoning Sorceror right now, with levels in the Feindbinder prestige class. Aside from anything else, its fun to be a one-man army with cannon fodder at my beck and call.

Really, summoning spells dont suck that much. Augment summoning is a must, but the Celestial Bison from the 3rd lvl list has decent attack and damage, and the feindish ape has three attacks and 10 ft reach. And the New monster books often have summoning rules. Look at MMIV's Voor, a Decent CR 4 monster at Summon Monster IV. 6 attacks at +10, rend, climb speed, DR/Good, and REach. Very effective, even at level 9. Or, summon devils and demons with a plethora of spell like abilities, like the spined devil from FCII (produce flame and Stinking Cloud).

In a single spell, you get enormous versitality. Falling a long distance? Dont waste a precious slot on feather fall, just whip up a giant owl. Trapped in the water with a monster? conjure a squid to ink the water and drag you to the surface. Faced with a nasty maze or trap? Conjure a horde of Dire rats to check every square. Need to light something in fire? Summon a hell-hound.

My favorite tactic is to whip up a few vipers right next to the enemy caster. Their low AC and Fort save means that that Con poison will likely hit, and hit hard.

Then, There's the whole rest of the Conjuration School, with damage spells, battle feild control, 'porting, and Planar Binding.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-15, 12:38 AM
Check out some of the variant summoning lists at Wizard's for a lot more usefulness and utility.

Consider taking an Extra domain like the Summoner Domain.

I like SM7 for summoning a Movanic Deva Fiend Folio who can Raise the Dead for no cost or do a Commune or some other spellcasting with it's abilitie's (emergency healing for a sorcerer or wizard) for things a sorcerer, wizard or druid cannot normally do.

Summoning is usually enhanced with a build but gives a sorcerer more utility if they use some of the variant summoning options.

Leon
2007-08-15, 02:27 AM
In the PDF from the Burnt World of Athas site the black bear and lion are still in there.

ok, well they are not on the list from the Dungeon articles that ive been using, i'll have a look at it - also depends if the DM alows the Stuff from the site, as its not in the same "timeframe" as when we are

as a aside a bear with a AC of 13 and 25 hp is going to last just a bit longer than the snake with what we curretly up against, its claws may just do a tiny bit of damage and the bite has buckleys, its use a "meat shield" would be limited as it tends to atack what did it more harm

robotrobot2
2007-08-19, 09:47 AM
A fifth level conjurer with the augment summoning, imbued summoning, fiendish calling, and infernal summoning feats could get a buffed up, evil outsider from the fifth lvl spell list. (approx CR 6)

Peregrine
2007-08-19, 11:56 AM
My current party is big on summons. Our druid rocked the battles early on with summon desert ally... those little scorpions were great for distracting, hampering, and hurting. The necromancer who's stopped showing up really laid on the pain with summon undead (a troll skeleton was his powerhouse move). Our other druid now regularly calls in summoned backup, and the psion has his astral construct. Those two summons managed to one-shot an ogre each, a couple of sessions back, with a special move I like to call 'flank with rogue'. :smallbiggrin: (I play the rogue. I'm the only non-caster in the party...)

So no, as someone else said, summons are not a win button. They won't tank all that effectively, and they're definitely not a substitute for a rogue, as people keep suggesting regarding traps. In short, they won't replace any party members. But used cleverly, they do enhance a lot of them. Especially rogues!