3.5: Grappling With Improved Grab

[Tr0users]

I've been looking through prestige classes to find ones interesting to me, and found a couple that look as though they fit well together. So I've come up with a build incorporating them and naively, unwittingly flung myself into the apparently inhospitable mess of rules surrounding grappling with natural weapons.

Here's what I'm currently looking at: Half-Ogre - Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Ranger 2/Black Blood Cultist 8/Primeval 7/Fist of the Forest 1 (this is assuming I buy off that +2 LA). My Primeval form is Dire Snake, so I'm working with Improved Grab and Constrict; BBC's giving me Improved Grapple, and I'll also be getting Improved Unarmed Strike, of course. Primeval's giving me two additional claw attacks whilst raging, which presumably makes me a snake with arms, and the ability to rend when I hit with them both. I also have Savage Grapple, which means that "I deal damage as if I had hit with all my natural weapons (including rend, if I'm raging) on a successful grapple check."

Improved Grab: "If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required.

Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.

A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight."

Constrict: "A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab."

Improved Grapple: "You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you make a touch attack to start a grapple. You also gain a +4 bonus on all grapple checks, regardless of whether you started the grapple."

Improved Unarmed Strike: "You are considered to be armed even when unarmed—that is, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you.

In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option."

So, basically, my question is: how do I wield all of this? On my turn, can I attack an un-grappled enemy with claws and bite, and then grapple on the last attack using Improved Grab - claws to rend, bite to grapple? Is it possible to grapple more than one enemy at once if I take the -20 on grapple checks against the initial target and continue attacking un-grappled enemies? Is grappling a useful attack form to use on attacks of opportunity - can I nullify attacks entirely if I have Robilar's Gambit or Defensive Rebuke?

Also, any comments or suggestions for the build are welcome.

[The Viscount]

Oh man grapple rules are a real rat's nest.

Yes, you do have the power to take a -20 on grapple checks to act as if you aren't grappled. That means you can then grapple another target, or simply attack things around you. If you want to make a habit of this, consider Multigrab and Greater Multigrab. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "is grappling viable with AoOs." If you are asking if you can use improved grab on an AoO, the answer is unfortunately no. Starting the grapple is a free action, and you can only take free actions during your turn.

In terms of what a round looks like, it depends on what you want to do. If you use a full attack, you'll use 2 claws (activating rend) and bite (or iterative attacks with a weapon in one hand, then a claw then a bite) and then improved grab activates, you start the grapple, and your turn ends. I believe that if you use improved unarmed strike to make your iterative attacks, it would allow you to also use all your natural attacks on a full attack.
Alternatively, you could just bite the target, which starts the grapple, and use remaining iteratives to make grapple checks to deal damage (2 claws + rend + bite + constrict) with each check. So if you had a +15 BA, you make the bite (at -5 penalty for being secondary), then can make 2 grapple checks to deal damage.

What are the ranger levels being used here? Are you taking fangshield ranger for multiattack?

Hope this all makes sense and helps.

[Tr0users]

Oh man grapple rules are a real rat's nest.

Yes, you do have the power to take a -20 on grapple checks to act as if you aren't grappled. That means you can then grapple another target, or simply attack things around you. If you want to make a habit of this, consider Multigrab and Greater Multigrab. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "is grappling viable with AoOs." If you are asking if you can use improved grab on an AoO, the answer is unfortunately no. Starting the grapple is a free action, and you can only take free actions during your turn.

In terms of what a round looks like, it depends on what you want to do. If you use a full attack, you'll use 2 claws (activating rend) and bite (or iterative attacks with a weapon in one hand, then a claw then a bite) and then improved grab activates, you start the grapple, and your turn ends. I believe that if you use improved unarmed strike to make your iterative attacks, it would allow you to also use all your natural attacks on a full attack.
Alternatively, you could just bite the target, which starts the grapple, and use remaining iteratives to make grapple checks to deal damage (2 claws + rend + bite + constrict) with each check. So if you had a +15 BA, you make the bite (at -5 penalty for being secondary), then can make 2 grapple checks to deal damage.

What are the ranger levels being used here? Are you taking fangshield ranger for multiattack?

Hope this all makes sense and helps.

That's a big help, thanks! And yes, that's pretty much the question I was trying to ask regarding AoO. That's a shame - the ability to grapple as an AoO would've been real useful. On the other hand, I apparently have much more flexibility during my turn than I thought, so that's good. The Multigrab feats look pretty much ideal.

Basically, my plan was to take my Barbarian level at first, and then get into BBC and Primeval as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, the earliest I can get into any of my prestige classes is level 5, so I have three levels to fill with something. I'm hoping people might have some better ideas than mine for these levels. Frankly, I'm using them mainly to pick up some of the seven feats that I need for prestige class prerequisites (Track and Power Attack from Ranger (Strong-Arm combat style), and IUS from Fighter). Not exactly the most exciting use of three levels, but opens some space up for feats I actually want. As I say, suggestions are very welcome, particularly for better ways to use these levels in particular.