Purpose of Sorcerers?

[craverguy]

Necessary preamble: I speak here as someone who has not actually played 5e, just read the core books and some character build guides. It could be my gut feeling is wrong here, which is why the title of the post is a question.

It seems to me that, at some point between 3.5 and 5e, Sorcerers have been nerfed so thoroughly that there's really no point in playing them. If you want an arcane caster, you should play a Wizard (if you want full spell access and flexibility) or a Bard or a Warlock (if you want to trade some spellcasting for nifty abilities like total mastery of skill-monkeying or at-will True Sight and Alter Self). The Sorcerer, meanwhile, also loses out on the Wizard's flexibility (even moreso than they did in 3.5) while gaining exclusive access to a set of abilities (Metamagic) that don't quite offset what they give up.

First of all, let's look at their spell list. In 3.5, the Sorcerer and Wizard spell lists looked exactly the same; the only difference was how many each class could learn. But let's look at just some of the spells Wizards can now learn that Sorcerers cannot: Bestow Curse, Magic Circle, Evard's Black Tentacles, Conjure Elemental, Geas, Modify Memory, Wall of Force, Flesh to Stone, Magic Jar, Programmed Image, Simulacrum, Symbol, Antimagic Field, Clone, Maze, Mindblank, Telepathy, Foresight, Shapechange, and True Polymorph. These are some very powerful and, in many cases, highly flexible spells, which the Wizard can have access to any time he bothers to prepare them, but the Sorcerer does not have. And, as near as I can tell, the handful of spells that Sorcerers get that Wizards don't (e.g., Fire Storm and Earthquake) fill only one niche in the party which an equally high level Wizard could fill just as well with the spells both classes share. (And let's not even get into my grumpiness over the elimination of the "Shadow" spell tree, which allowed the Sorcerer to cast a certain number of spells that they might not otherwise have been able to fit on their character sheet, at the cost of a higher spell slot and a potential to be disbelieved.)

As if to add insult to injury, the Sorcerer now casts exactly the same number of spells per day as the Wizard, eliminating what was previously their major source of advantage over the other arcane classes. So now, not only have you been reduced from having three 9th Level spells at Level 20 to one, but the selection of spells worth taking has basically been reduced to two (Meteor Swarm or Wish) and you can only use that one spell once per day, instead of six time as you could in 3.5. Contrast that with the Wizard, who can also only cast one 9th Level spell per day at Level 20, but that spell could be Wish, Shapechange, True Polymorph, Foresight, or Gate, as suits the needs of the day. (And call me crazy, but I could swear it used to be that certain races could learn additional spells every other level as a favored class bonus? Yeah, they did away with favored class bonuses, so no joy there, either.)

The counterbalance here is supposedly that Sorcerers have exclusive access to Metamagic, and it's true that Metamagic is very nice. I just don't happen to think it's nice enough to counterbalance both a shrunken spell list and a significantly reduced number of spells per day. After all, which is better: casting a twinned Finger of Death twice a day or casting regular Finger of Death four times a day and being able to also cast Forcecage twice?

Seems to me that the Bard has replaced the Sorcerer as the go-to arcane alternative to Wizards: they actually know more spells per level than Sorcerers, they can use Magical Secrets to poach powerful spells (like Wish) that don't appear on their spell list, plus they get Bardic Influence and all the skill-monkeying they can handle.

[smcmike]

1. You are not alone in this feeling. Here is a massive recent thread on the subject: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?534114-Sorcerer-the-most-unsatisfying-class

2. Metamagic does allow for action economy tricks that are otherwise impossible. Two Fingers of Death in the same round are sometimes infinitely more valuable than four Fingers of Death over four rounds.

3. It is VERY popular when combined with Paladin. Metamagic allows for quickened spells, along with melee attacks, and flexible smiting. That's sweet.

4. Bard is a better overall class, but does not have the offensive spell options that Sorcerer has.

[georgie_leech]

2. Metamagic does allow for action economy tricks that are otherwise impossible. Two Fingers of Death in the same round are sometimes infinitely more valuable than four Fingers of Death over four rounds.


Quibble, Sorcerer can't do this. Bonus Action spells, regardless of how they're a bonus action, restrict other spells that turn to Cantrips. Even if the Bonus Action spell is a Cantrip.

ETA: Not deleting for the sake of quote clarity, but apparently I somehow completely forgot that Twin was a thing, making my point entirely irrelevant. IGNORE ME

[craverguy]

4. Bard is a better overall class, but does not have the offensive spell options that Sorcerer has.
With Magical Secrets, the Bard can learn offensive spells from the Sorcerer's spell list.

[JBPuffin]

Quibble, Sorcerer can't do this. Bonus Action spells, regardless of how they're a bonus action, restrict other spells that turn to Cantrips. Even if the Bonus Action spell is a Cantrip.

Twinned spell, not Quickened, maybe?

[Mjolnirbear]

Quibble, Sorcerer can't do this. Bonus Action spells, regardless of how they're a bonus action, restrict other spells that turn to Cantrips. Even if the Bonus Action spell is a Cantrip.

He's talking about twinned spell, not quickened spell

[georgie_leech]

Twinned spell, not Quickened, maybe?


He's talking about twinned spell, not quickened spell

.............:smallredface:

[smcmike]

With Magical Secrets, the Bard can learn offensive spells from the Sorcerer's spell list.

Sure, but this doesn't show up until level 6 for lore bard or 10 for valor, and they still won't be as good at blasting as a blaster Sorcerer.

[craverguy]

Fair enough. But even if all you want out of your character is to blast things, the Sorcerer still doesn't necessarily have it all over the Wizard because the Wizard can know more forms of blasting than the Sorcerer can, and they can each cast the same number of spell slots per day.

[Ritorix]

5e sorcs are all about cramming the most value into their turn. It's a departure from 3.5's sorc. Versatility doesn't matter to them, rituals don't matter, having 20 spells you will never cast doesn't matter; 5e sorcs would rather have a few of the best combat spells and exploit the hell out of them to quickly win the rocket tag that is 5e combat. They do that by effectively casting their spells at a higher slot level (Empower, Twin), by making sure they work (Heighten), or by getting more actions per turn (Quicken).

Heightened, Empowered Disintegrate. Careful Hypnotic Pattern. Quickened, Empowered Sunbeam followed by an action sunbeam, and the following turns a quickened spell + action Sunbeams. Empowered Scroll/Wand of (insert magic item here, anything that says you 'cast' is meta-compatible).

Does it always work out for sorcs? Nope, depends on spell selection and the encounter. Twinned Hold Person is great...if you are fighting humanoids. Better have another option. The wizard will. Empowered Fireball is nice, but sometimes it's better to be an invoker wizard and catch more targets in a weaker blast (since allies will be safe). It's pretty easy to build a wizard and collect more spells, memorizing different ones if needed; it's a lot harder to pick a sorc's permanent spell list.

[Kane0]

It seems to me that, at some point between 3.5 and 5e, Sorcerers have been nerfed so thoroughly that there's really no point in playing them.

Well they're still full casters, so even though they aren't as enticing as their counterparts they aren't useless. In terms of class balance there isn't the vast disparity in 5e that existed in 3.5



But let's look at just some of the spells Wizards can now learn that Sorcerers cannot. And, as near as I can tell, the handful of spells that Sorcerers get that Wizards don't (e.g., Fire Storm and Earthquake) fill only one niche in the party which an equally high level Wizard could fill just as well with the spells both classes share.

Correct, Sorcs get significantly less in terms of spell choice. Between much fewer spells known than other classes and no unique sorc spells this is a common complaint. However smart choice and swapping out when leveling can still be plenty enough to be impressive, if not batman.



As if to add insult to injury, the Sorcerer now casts exactly the same number of spells per day as the Wizard, eliminating what was previously their major source of advantage over the other arcane classes.

Everybody works off the same progression now, so sorcs aren't delayed by a level unlike 3.5. They get no recovery mechanic unlike wizards and some druids until level 20 which stings and is another common complaint but otherwise they get sorcery points which can be used for more spells if you are so inclined. In this regard Sorcs aren't that different from the other full casters.



The counterbalance here is supposedly that Sorcerers have exclusive access to Metamagic, and it's true that Metamagic is very nice.

Make no mistake, metamagic is very powerful in the right hands. The problem is the 'right hands' part, which flies against 5e's general policy of keeping skill/power floors and ceiling closer together than previous editions.
But also correct in that metamagic is about the *only* nice thing besides subclass features that sorcs get, unlike say bards or clerics. Couple that with the limitations of Sorcery Points and it can become a problem.



Seems to me that the Bard has replaced the Sorcerer as the go-to arcane alternative to Wizards: they actually know more spells per level than Sorcerers, they can use Magical Secrets to poach powerful spells (like Wish) that don't appear on their spell list, plus they get Bardic Influence and all the skill-monkeying they can handle.

They certainly lack a place beyond 'has metamagic', but they aren't useless. Warlocks and Paladins love sorcerer levels, and mixing sorc and bard can be very good too. Compared directly to Wizards and Bards they lose a lot of their appeal, yes, which is shown by the big thread and survey and such currently going on.

Ay my table we like to use the Spell Point variant rule in the DMG for Sorcs only to differentiate them and merge spell points and sorcery points to prevent resource bleed between the two. Works a charm with a couple extra spells known or MM known thrown in at the right levels.
We also have custom abilities for sorcs to recover some SP on a rest and to cast any spell a very limited number of times per day as if they knew it, but that's less common amongst tables that houserule.

[TekDragon]

The only optimal way to play a sorcerer in 5e is to mix it with at least 2 levels of paladin.

Now you've taken the sub-optimal sorcerer and added:

1. A ton of extra AC so you're not a walking liability for healing energy.
2. The ability to cure 2 poisons or diseases a day for free, or pull 10 people up from unconscious.
3. A way turn all those spell slots into something useful outside of the extremely limited spells you can cast.
4. Extra versatility for your metamagic with the new melee cantrips.

The first time you quicken dimension door to take yourself and your held-action rogue right up against an enemy caster and their body guard, then unleash a twinned Booming Blade with two-handed weapon, adding smites on each, and re-rolling 1's and 2's on the sword damage, booming blade damage, and smite damage, doubling everything if you get a crit - you'll never even look at a vanilla sorcerer again.

[NecroDancer]

Sorcerers can mess with opponents rolls, have great maneuverability, gain permanent flight, make spells uncounterable, make spells take only bonus actions, make some spells have double the value, create new slots at will, and have higher hp as a passive buff.

[Theodoxus]

snip

Yup. When WotC decided to nerf Vancian casting, so that everyone was spontaneous, and only how one gained or memorized spells was the primary difference, they created too many caster classes.

Wizard should be completely Vancian; prepare each spell slot at the beginning of the day, like any 2nd Ed wizard would. Grant them a feat - or add on to Keen Mind that allows wizards to hold slots open to later fill in the day.

Bard would be the go-between for arcane and divine casting. In other words, they wouldn't change.

Warlock is the premier short rest caster. Their unique casting style keeps them fresh. Though I do prefer spell points - just for flexibility. Why they just couldn't have a 1/3 casters slot number on a full caster progression is beyond me. Two slots that automaximize is anything but useful when most warlock spells don't gain any benefit from upcasting.

Then, to differentiate sorcerers just a bit more, allow them the premier seat at the spontaneous caster table by granting them erudite status. I'd open up their spell lists to gain anything that isn't unique to the cleric, druid, paladin or ranger lists. They are in touch with the primal; a direct tap into the Weave, as it were. Being able to mold magic, akin to Spellfire - they should have the ability to cast nearly any spell... but they can only hold so much magic within. Each unique spell they cast, diminishes the overpool they pull from. As the day grows longer, their choices fade until all they have are the spells they've cast throughout the day - locked until they take a long rest.

Allow Metamagic to be within the sphere of sorcery, but I'd also create a feat, much like Martial Adept, that granted a single metamagic to be used 1/short rest. Let the life cleric Twin a Healing Word, or the wizard Heighten a Hold Person. The sorcerer still has any spell at his beck and call, provided he hasn't used all his spells per day, yet.

[craverguy]

Then, to differentiate sorcerers just a bit more, allow them the premier seat at the spontaneous caster table by granting them erudite status. I'd open up their spell lists to gain anything that isn't unique to the cleric, druid, paladin or ranger lists. They are in touch with the primal; a direct tap into the Weave, as it were. Being able to mold magic, akin to Spellfire - they should have the ability to cast nearly any spell... but they can only hold so much magic within. Each unique spell they cast, diminishes the overpool they pull from. As the day grows longer, their choices fade until all they have are the spells they've cast throughout the day - locked until they take a long rest.
I adore this idea, but I doubt it would catch on, since most people thought Erudites were overpowered.

[SharkForce]

Sure, but this doesn't show up until level 6 for lore bard or 10 for valor, and they still won't be as good at blasting as a blaster Sorcerer.

perhaps not as good, but they'll be danged close.

if fireball is worthwhile, it's worthwhile whether you have +cha to damage or not. +cha to damage is obviously better, but not by a huge amount, really. and since fireball is way better than almost everything else, with one spell secret you've gained most of the blasting value of a sorcerer.

if you just went evocation wizard, you didn't even need that to match sorcerer blasting, except you're backed by a much more robust spell list, more spells known, the ability to change spells prepared from day to day, ritual casting, and the ability to never hit your friends with that fireball. except you gained that +int to damage with any damaging spell, regardless of element.

and that's even presuming blasting is even that valuable to begin with. i mean, don't get me wrong, it's nice to have the option to lob a fireball occasionally when you need it, but... building a spellcaster entirely around that? eww. no thanks. if you want to damage things, other classes do very impressive damage with a much more generous resource management system and usually greater reliability.

[RSP]

The first time you quicken dimension door to take yourself and your held-action rogue right up against an enemy caster and their body guard, then unleash a twinned Booming Blade with two-handed weapon, adding smites on each, and re-rolling 1's and 2's on the sword damage, booming blade damage, and smite damage, doubling everything if you get a crit - you'll never even look at a vanilla sorcerer again.

Hate to do this to you, but I don't want others to think this is how the game is supposed to work. The intent is that GWF only rerolls the weapon's damage dice, not adding damage from SA, Smites, Spells, etc. Per JC:

"The intent is that Great Weapon Fighting lets you reroll just the weapon's dice, not Smite dice and the like. #DnD https://twitter.com/dimitrisgkelis/status/666353820499341312 …"

[90sMusic]

You aren't alone in thinking Sorcs are terrible, it's a common opinion in many D&D communities.

In my campaigns, I give my sorc players access to all the metamagic options instead of having to choose and make them use the spell point variant instead of spell slots. It seems to fix a lot of it because it makes them more flexible, which is the theme I go for with my version of them.

The only time I ever play a sorcerer though is when I play on taking a 2 warlock level dip so I can do ridiculous damage with quicken metamagic and eldritch blast with agonizing blast. Throw a hex on there first and you're doing 4d10+4d6+16 generally by level 5 on every turn. The free mage armor is nice too.

[DarkKnightJin]

Hate to do this to you, but I don't want others to think this is how the game is supposed to work. The intent is that GWF only rerolls the weapon's damage dice, not adding damage from SA, Smites, Spells, etc. Per JC:

"The intent is that Great Weapon Fighting lets you reroll just the weapon's dice, not Smite dice and the like. #DnD https://twitter.com/dimitrisgkelis/status/666353820499341312 …"

I asked my DM about that same thing. He rules that GWF -does- apply to Smite damage, but he noted aftwr some quick Google-fu that there is pretty much NO consensus on this issue.
Honestly, I would've been fine with either ruling to be honest, but I'm glad he ruled in my 'favor' on this.
Not that I expect to be 2-handing my sword very often (long story, for another thread). It's nice to have the option there.

[Spacehamster]

You aren't alone in thinking Sorcs are terrible, it's a common opinion in many D&D communities.

In my campaigns, I give my sorc players access to all the metamagic options instead of having to choose and make them use the spell point variant instead of spell slots. It seems to fix a lot of it because it makes them more flexible, which is the theme I go for with my version of them.

The only time I ever play a sorcerer though is when I play on taking a 2 warlock level dip so I can do ridiculous damage with quicken metamagic and eldritch blast with agonizing blast. Throw a hex on there first and you're doing 4d10+4d6+16 generally by level 5 on every turn. The free mage armor is nice too.

Then add 2 fighter for even one more eldritch barrage per short rest and shoot lazors like a beast!

[djreynolds]

The classes are not equal. None of them are.

If you want to fly an F22, paladin is sweet.

Play a crusty grunt, fighter is a good choice.

Wizard is actually really good for beginners, as is cleric. The prepare spells and have oodles of them.

Sorcerer is a challenge to play. Not only do you need to know the spells well, you need to know what works best with metamagic. And how do you fit in with your team.

Twinning haste on the paladin and fighter and sit back. Quicken firebolt at one target and the twin ray of frost at 2 others.

You need elemental adept, really don't need war caster as you are in the back blasting people and you have con save proficiency. Maybe beef up dexterity or wisdom saves.

Sorcerer IMO is not for a novice player. I have played one and enjoyed it immensely. Cheesing warlock dip is awesome, as pact magic restores on a short rest, meaning you can turn these into spell points.

Find out what how to fit with your party. You could be the buffer, as twinning spells works. You could be the big destabilizer with heightened. Perhaps you're in a party of scoundrels and rogue and subtle is fun.

Sorcerer is very specialized now IMO, and this appeals to some. Have a wizard in the party do everything else, and the sorcerer can literally lean back and blast away.

[TheUser]

-snip-

INCOMING COUNTER RANT

I think that the issue is that the sorcerer is the easiest class to play incorrectly. And fifth edition has new players coming out of the woodwork misusing the hardest class. The trade tax on sorcery points to spell slots through Font of Magic is probably the first big pitfall/trench I see players fall into or avoid as a feature entirely. A sorcerer could literally burn bonus actions to manually dwindle their power down to 1 sorcery point if they wanted to (0 spell slots) and with zero output in the process.

While this can actually reduce a sorcerer's casting power if used poorly, when put under the microscope displays the potential to cast more spells than a wizard could even after a short rest for arcane recovery. When proper Metamagic use is applied we see slot value and potential casting power far beyond a regular caster. But it is not implicit or easy and many metamagics have value far beyond what is initially assumed or seen.


I have my own grievances with how the majority of the community seem to idolize twinned and quicken and then begrudge the lack of sorcery point recovery until level 20. Taking two of the most expensive metamagic options at level 3 like their hot **** and then thinking the class sucks when the balancing factors of the system bite them in the ass for not factoring in limitations up until this point. To paraphrase: "twinned and quickened are the best metamagics but the class sucks because they run out of sorcery points so easily and don't recover any on a short rest!" I'm sorry to say but if you pick two expensive metamagics at level 3 and constantly run out of sorcery points then I'm afraid it is not the class that sucks but rather the player.

Metamagic is not a simple mechanic. To revisit the "building wrong" potential, a player could take twinned and careful spell and now each spell they choose is limited in compatibility with one metamagic or the other. Not only is their use mutually exclusive, so too is their compatibility with spells. The key word "meta" should be our first hint that this is a more cerebral class feature. A core feature that isn't inherently simple goes against the 5e principles but the potential is egregious when the right hands are at the wheel.

Empower is the first hidden juggernaut that poor mathematical analysis would lead players to view as "lackluster." If you only apply highschool math to the situation it would seem to add ~5 average damage to a fireball that does 28 average damage. However when you graph a probability matrix to 8d6 and then empower the lowest 5 rolls (when appropriate) it shows that the bulk of the boost being applied to the "average" is on the lower of the damage rolls. Essentially the crit miss of fireballs is rolling 20 damage or lower. The crit miss of empowered fireballs is ~27 damage. So the low end of empowered is almost equal to the average damage of the spell. But don't take my word for it; go roll some fireballs and see what 5 potential re-rolls do to the spell's average damage. Takes 2 minutes to see that empower can easily add over 10 damage when it counts; after rolling poorly. Adding 10 damage to a fireball is like casting with a 6th level slot. There's casting power for yah (btw empower + elemental affinity fireballs do roughly the average damage of a 6th level fireball; you want increased casting power there it is). Best of all the feature is usable after the roll is visible and in conjunction with other metamagics. Did I mention it's always 1 sorcery point? The fact it's considered lackluster by a community dedicated to putting classes under rigorous scrutiny is testament to the notion that most people have no idea what they are talking about and will try to tailor a class to what they want as opposed to making good use of what is already there.

Seeing as subtle spell wasn't mentioned in the original post the bulk of sorcerer potential remains unexplored by the OP and hadn't gleaned the surface of this class' potential. Removing verbal and somatic components has zero numerical effect on a spell but god damn does it open up some doors for shenanigans.



I've tried the spell points variant being exclusive to Sorcerer and my RL DM watched in horror at what I did with it in 3 sessions. Font of Magic has a tax for a reason and when you go full throttle on being able to cast high level spells with excessive frequency it dwarfs the power of everyone around you who don't have spellpoints. After playing a standard sorcerer from level 1 to 13 with the same DM I don't think he'll let me alter the class. We both see the small spell list as a necessary evil to keep its' power in check. The issue is that the limitations of the class prove to be too much for a majority of players who don't have strong numbercrunching analytics on their side or rock-solid character building experience. Not a good 5e class but not a bad class for those who embrace its strengths.

[Byke]

INCOMING COUNTER RANT
Not a good 5e class but not a bad class for those who embrace its strengths.

Rant aside...I agree with most of what was said above. Sorcerer can be effective party members if they properly planned out.

When I play sorcerer the first thing I ask is what level the campaign will be going to and then plan out every levels spell choice and metamagic accordingly. Unlike other caster that can "evolve" based on the campaign.

**Edit** as for the "purpose" question, I find Sorcerers are good at buffing/controlling and doing dam.

When I play sorcerer I only run 1 dam can trip and 1 dam spell (Fireball + 2 levels of Warlock is too good to pass up, EB + AB).
The other spells I choose are usually multi-purpose, haste, polymorph animate object ect…ect.., that can be used offensively, defensively or as utility. Twin polymorph/banishment can wreck encounters.

I won’t always be top damage dealer, but when you factor in the amount of damage mitigated and done by the buff provided to party members or enemies controlled, a well-planned out / played Sorcerer can be an effective party member.

***Note there are some quality of life issues I do believe are required for sorcerer, but they are by no means obsolete***

[TheUser]

Rant aside...I agree with most of what was said above. Sorcerer can be effective party members if they properly planned out.

When I play sorcerer the first thing I ask is what level the campaign will be going to and then plan out every levels spell choice and metamagic accordingly. Unlike other caster that can "evolve" based on the campaign.

Making it 5e friendly would consist of only 2 minor changes; 1 spell being changeable after a long rest and being able to swap 1 metamagic between levels. As it stands the class offers almost no room for experimentation or trial and error. Too much is set in stone with little room to backpedal or adapt.

Edit: I realised I didn't respond to the thread's question.
The purpose of sorcerers is to commit to a style of magic and outperform others in that niche

Best buffer? Twin Spell. Blasting? Empower. Battlefield control? Careful. Social manipulator and sneak mage? Subtle. Sniper? Distant. (Don't take extended).

[Byke]

Making it 5e friendly would consist of only 2 minor changes; 1 spell being changeable after a long rest and being able to swap 1 metamagic between levels. As it stands the class offers almost no room for experimentation or trial and error. Too much is set in stone with little room to backpedal or adapt.

Totally agree with the inflexibility. I would like a little more fluff like you suggested in another thread the improvised casting, where Sorcerer have an open slot to select a spell they need on the fly and having it locked in until the next long rest.

Changing MM would also be good, but I think they need to provide another MM at 6-7th (3rd - 10th is to long)

[SharkForce]

even extend spell is pretty good on the right character (by which i mostly mean, not a single-class sorcerer). not that regular sorcerers have nothing worth extending, but they don't have nearly as much as other classes. particularly clerics.

but i think that identity of sorcerers being ultraspecialized because of metamagic kinda falls a bit flat when you remember multiclassing is a thing.

[Aett_Thorn]

even extend spell is pretty good on the right character (by which i mostly mean, not a single-class sorcerer). not that regular sorcerers have nothing worth extending, but they don't have nearly as much as other classes. particularly clerics.

but i think that identity of sorcerers being ultraspecialized because of metamagic kinda falls a bit flat when you remember multiclassing is a thing.

Yes, but what good is Metamagic if you don't have the Sorcery Points to actually do anything with? Sure, you can use a few metamagics once or twice a day, but if that's it, you're not really getting much out of it.

[SharkForce]

Yes, but what good is Metamagic if you don't have the Sorcery Points to actually do anything with? Sure, you can use a few metamagics once or twice a day, but if that's it, you're not really getting much out of it.

by the time you've gained metamagic from your sorcerer dip you've also gained the ability to turn spell slots into sorcery points. obviously, it'd be nice to have more points that don't cost spell slots, but that is often not worth the cost of more sorcerer levels.

[Aett_Thorn]

by the time you've gained metamagic from your sorcerer dip you've also gained the ability to turn spell slots into sorcery points. obviously, it'd be nice to have more points that don't cost spell slots, but that is often not worth the cost of more sorcerer levels.

Also true. But yeah, I don't know many players that would take a Sorc dip just to turn their spells into Sorc points just to enhance other spells.

[Theodoxus]

Also true. But yeah, I don't know many players that would take a Sorc dip just to turn their spells into Sorc points just to enhance other spells.

Which kind of begs the question, is metamagic really all that great then?

Or, put another way, what would be missing, outside of the extremely niche sorcerer subclass abilities, by removing the class completely and granting MM to all classes (via feat or core ability, doesn't matter much) in such a way as to offer them a few times a day, say... Proficiency Bonus or Casting Stat Mod per long rest...

The sorcerer offers no unique spells, unlike Warlock. It's primary defining trait, metamagic, is only such because it was only offered on the sorcerer and is thus a circular argument. Wizard's having spontaneous casting steps on their toes, and bards get a lot more core abilities that make them better sorcs than sorcs.

I'm with the OP in questioning the purpose of sorcerers. Any explanation boils down to either "super specialized caster" which one can easily do with any other caster (but especially the wizard or bard) or metamagic, which is, again, circular logic.

Dragon magic could easily be a warlock patron and pact, and probably makes more sense. Wild Magic could be all kinds of things, from warlock patron (meh) to bardic college (kinda meh) to wizarding school - studying the chaotic energies permeating the Weave from the GOOs way "out there" (interesting, imo).

I'm still of the mindset that wizards are too close to sorcerers, and that's why people are so nuts about sorcs being underpowered; both by breadth of knowledge and depth of power. Or, to summarize (poorly, i'm sure) TheUser's point - wizard's were dumbed down and sorcs were smarted up - where it concerns player cognition. A truly ironic problem, given that wizards are supposed to be smart and sorcs fly by the seat of their pants.

That's why I think my solution (and homebrew) is the best solution (for me) - Vancian Wizards and Erudite Sorcerers - making the smart players play the cognitive game and the flash in the pan charismatic types be Aladdin's Genie!

[Rhedyn]

Twin Cantrips

Twin polymorph

Heighten Banishment

Quicken spells while using your standard action (like telekinesis)

NOVA-ing (Twin Firebolt + Quicken Fireball)

Overall a very strong class that shows up big in combat. More optimal in large parties than wizard.

[TheUser]

Which kind of begs the question, is metamagic really all that great then?

Or, put another way, what would be missing, outside of the extremely niche sorcerer subclass abilities, by removing the class completely and granting MM to all classes (via feat or core ability, doesn't matter much) in such a way as to offer them a few times a day, say... Proficiency Bonus or Casting Stat Mod per long rest...

The sorcerer offers no unique spells, unlike Warlock. It's primary defining trait, metamagic, is only such because it was only offered on the sorcerer and is thus a circular argument. Wizard's having spontaneous casting steps on their toes, and bards get a lot more core abilities that make them better sorcs than sorcs.

I'm with the OP in questioning the purpose of sorcerers. Any explanation boils down to either "super specialized caster" which one can easily do with any other caster (but especially the wizard or bard) or metamagic, which is, again, circular logic.

Dragon magic could easily be a warlock patron and pact, and probably makes more sense. Wild Magic could be all kinds of things, from warlock patron (meh) to bardic college (kinda meh) to wizarding school - studying the chaotic energies permeating the Weave from the GOOs way "out there" (interesting, imo).

I'm still of the mindset that wizards are too close to sorcerers, and that's why people are so nuts about sorcs being underpowered; both by breadth of knowledge and depth of power. Or, to summarize (poorly, i'm sure) TheUser's point - wizard's were dumbed down and sorcs were smarted up - where it concerns player cognition. A truly ironic problem, given that wizards are supposed to be smart and sorcs fly by the seat of their pants.

That's why I think my solution (and homebrew) is the best solution (for me) - Vancian Wizards and Erudite Sorcerers - making the smart players play the cognitive game and the flash in the pan charismatic types be Aladdin's Genie!

Givinv metamagic options to every other class does a multitude of negative ****

1) all other classes must either be nerfed or feat taxxed to gain metamagic

2) metamagic must be balanced around all classes and spell lists intead of sorcerer's meaning it gets nerfed

3) bards become OP because any spell + any metamagic is ridiculous.

4) widens the gap between martials and mages further

[Theodoxus]

Givinv metamagic options to every other class does a multitude of negative ****

1) all other classes must either be nerfed or feat taxxed to gain metamagic

2) metamagic must be balanced around all classes and spell lists intead of sorcerer's meaning it gets nerfed

3) bards become OP because any spell + any metamagic is ridiculous.

4) widens the gap between martials and mages further

Um... no?

All those things exist currently, unless you ban multiclassing.

Go ahead, try and wreck a campaign with 2 or 3 metamagics a long rest. I dare you.

[Rebonack]

The changes to spellcasting already removed their niche. As it stands metamagic is their only thing when it wasn't really their thing previously.

I'm a fan of simply rolling Sorcerer and Warlock into a single 'innate magic' class. Whether that spark of magic is from a pact or inborn or from being bitten by a radioactive dragon really doesn't matter.

The patrons and bloodlines get rolled together. The class runs on spell points since that's a much better system for Warlock to begin with. Metamagic becomes a Boon choice and gets some supporting Invocations.

It would take some fiddling to get the specifics right, but the conversation would be pretty simple.

[TheUser]

Um... no?

All those things exist currently, unless you ban multiclassing.

Go ahead, try and wreck a campaign with 2 or 3 metamagics a long rest. I dare you.

EDIT: If you are only getting 2 or 3 metamagics per long rest then you are nerfing metamagic, something I stipulate needs doing if you give it to everyone. Thanks for agreeing with me.

You don't get spell progression while multiclassing....

[Citan]

OP, I think those people nailed it good. :)


5e sorcs are all about cramming the most value into their turn. It's a departure from 3.5's sorc. Versatility doesn't matter to them, rituals don't matter, having 20 spells you will never cast doesn't matter; 5e sorcs would rather have a few of the best combat spells and exploit the hell out of them to quickly win the rocket tag that is 5e combat. They do that by effectively casting their spells at a higher slot level (Empower, Twin), by making sure they work (Heighten), or by getting more actions per turn (Quicken).

Heightened, Empowered Disintegrate. Careful Hypnotic Pattern. Quickened, Empowered Sunbeam followed by an action sunbeam, and the following turns a quickened spell + action Sunbeams. Empowered Scroll/Wand of (insert magic item here, anything that says you 'cast' is meta-compatible).

Does it always work out for sorcs? Nope, depends on spell selection and the encounter. Twinned Hold Person is great...if you are fighting humanoids. Better have another option. The wizard will. Empowered Fireball is nice, but sometimes it's better to be an invoker wizard and catch more targets in a weaker blast (since allies will be safe). It's pretty easy to build a wizard and collect more spells, memorizing different ones if needed; it's a lot harder to pick a sorc's permanent spell list.


The classes are not equal. None of them are.

If you want to fly an F22, paladin is sweet.

Play a crusty grunt, fighter is a good choice.

Wizard is actually really good for beginners, as is cleric. The prepare spells and have oodles of them.

Sorcerer is a challenge to play. Not only do you need to know the spells well, you need to know what works best with metamagic. And how do you fit in with your team.

Sorcerer IMO is not for a novice player. I have played one and enjoyed it immensely. Cheesing warlock dip is awesome, as pact magic restores on a short rest, meaning you can turn these into spell points.

Find out what how to fit with your party. You could be the buffer, as twinning spells works. You could be the big destabilizer with heightened. Perhaps you're in a party of scoundrels and rogue and subtle is fun.

Sorcerer is very specialized now IMO, and this appeals to some. Have a wizard in the party do everything else, and the sorcerer can literally lean back and blast away.



Edit: I realised I didn't respond to the thread's question.
The purpose of sorcerers is to commit to a style of magic and outperform others in that niche

Best buffer? Twin Spell. Blasting? Empower. Battlefield control? Careful. Social manipulator and sneak mage? Subtle. Sniper? Distant. (Don't take extended).

Still, I'll try a summarizing one-liner: Sorcerer is for people who are smart enough to properly use Metamagic, thus getting tremendously better action economy (and often resource economy) than any other caster.

(Heightened to not waste a slot -and a turn- on a fail, Empower to not waste a slot -and a turn- on bad luck, Twin to cram two spells in one turn, Extend to spare a slot, Quicken to cram a Dash/Disengage/Hide/Dodge, Subtle to avoid Counterspell or detection, Distant to spare a full turn -or cast from safety-).

This kind of power is hard to see for all the people that put theorycraft maths as the only relevant metric. But it makes all the difference in play.
As for the limited spell list, it it really bothers someone, just a dip in another caster expands greatly. But honestly a majority of Sorcerer spells are versatile, so one can do without.
Even Druids and Wizards, the most versatile of all, won't usually have that many niche spells prepared. And most of the time, the same 5-6 spells are used over and over to manage encounters. So the lack of flexibility in niche situations is really not that much worse on a Sorcerer than on a Bard or Cleric...

[craverguy]

That's why I think my solution (and homebrew) is the best solution (for me) - Vancian Wizards and Erudite Sorcerers - making the smart players play the cognitive game and the flash in the pan charismatic types be Aladdin's Genie!
Is the homebrew posted on the board somewhere? I'd love to see it. And bookmark it.


As for the limited spell list, it it really bothers someone, just a dip in another caster expands greatly. But honestly a majority of Sorcerer spells are versatile, so one can do without.
I'm sorry, but I think this statement is flatly untrue. Once you get past 3rd Level spells, basically every Sorcerer spell can be divided into one of three categories: Spells for Blasting Folk, Spells for Charming Folk, and Spells for Transporting Folk (and most optimizers will tell you to skip that last group, because it doesn't come up often enough to justify using one of your few spells known). Put it like this: Sorcerers don't get a single Illusion spell after 5th Level. They don't get any Divination spells after 6th Level. All of their Necromancy spells are Spells for Blasting Folk, and they stop at 7th Level. And, yes, you can make up for this a bit by taking Wish as your one 9th Level spell...but that just feeds back into my earlier complaint that there are only two 9th Level spells (Meteor Shower and Wish) that are conceivably worth taking for a Sorcerer.

That's your choice for your Sorcerer's magical capstone: a Spell for Blasting Folk Really Hard and a Spell for Closing the Massive Gaps in Your Spell List.

[djreynolds]

But you can twin, heightened charm. Heightened fear with distance, you can shut down opposing forces with a 60' cone emanating from you

The beauty of 5E is 1st level spells are still potent, and cantrips are very potent

But you are right about the sorcerer, they are sometimes really just an archer with firebolts instead of arrows, and persuasion instead of stealth

Not every party will have a sorcerer in them, and often a warlock might be better because of eldritch blast

But in the right party they are very effective if the wizard/cleric/ or bard can carry the utility part

And like any class, with 13 in intelligence we can all have ritual caster wizard

What I do at my table, I allow players to have access to all metamagic and they can switch them out once a day so I see more than twinned and quickened spells. So maybe I will see fear cast with heighten and distance.

Next time you and your friends roll up a new game, if there is a wizard being created, roll up a sorcerer and have fun

[Citan]

Is the homebrew posted on the board somewhere? I'd love to see it. And bookmark it.


I'm sorry, but I think this statement is flatly untrue. Once you get past 3rd Level spells, basically every Sorcerer spell can be divided into one of three categories: Spells for Blasting Folk, Spells for Charming Folk, and Spells for Transporting Folk (and most optimizers will tell you to skip that last group, because it doesn't come up often enough to justify using one of your few spells known). Put it like this: Sorcerers don't get a single Illusion spell after 5th Level. They don't get any Divination spells after 6th Level. All of their Necromancy spells are Spells for Blasting Folk, and they stop at 7th Level. And, yes, you can make up for this a bit by taking Wish as your one 9th Level spell...but that just feeds back into my earlier complaint that there are only two 9th Level spells (Meteor Shower and Wish) that are conceivably worth taking for a Sorcerer.

That's your choice for your Sorcerer's magical capstone: a Spell for Blasting Folk Really Hard and a Spell for Closing the Massive Gaps in Your Spell List.
Hey, what you say is very true (although imo after 5th level, not 3rd). The difference in opinion lies in how important it is. Which is very little imo.

Watch how often in your games you would really need those 6+ spells. Watch how often on these forums, strong and reliable tactics are given with only 1st to 4th level spells. Plus the fact that many good spells are scalable, which is a big factor many people tend to forget about... : )

(Sorry not to give examples I m on smartphone atm really impractical. Same reason why I wont argue on your statement about 9th level spells although I also disagree with it : ))

[Byke]

I'm sorry, but I think this statement is flatly untrue. Once you get past 3rd Level spells, basically every Sorcerer spell can be divided into one of three categories: Spells for Blasting Folk, Spells for Charming Folk, and Spells for Transporting Folk (and most optimizers will tell you to skip that last group, because it doesn't come up often enough to justify using one of your few spells known). Put it like this: Sorcerers don't get a single Illusion spell after 5th Level. They don't get any Divination spells after 6th Level. All of their Necromancy spells are Spells for Blasting Folk, and they stop at 7th Level. And, yes, you can make up for this a bit by taking Wish as your one 9th Level spell...but that just feeds back into my earlier complaint that there are only two 9th Level spells (Meteor Shower and Wish) that are conceivably worth taking for a Sorcerer.

That's your choice for your Sorcerer's magical capstone: a Spell for Blasting Folk Really Hard and a Spell for Closing the Massive Gaps in Your Spell List.

One of my "quibbles" about the class as well. A Sorcerer "optimized" spell list will be almost identical to another "optimized" Sorcerer's spell list minus 1-4 spells of personal preference ( IE Wish vs Meteor Shower)....Same goes for metamagic.

[Citan]

One of my "quibbles" about the class as well. A Sorcerer "optimized" spell list will be almost identical to another "optimized" Sorcerer's spell list minus 1-4 spells of personal preference ( IE Wish vs Meteor Shower)....Same goes for metamagic.
I would daresay that this feeling of yours just reflect the fact that yourself always play the same kind of Sorcerer (or other casters), with the same kind of party.

I would more or less agree if someone said that "for each kind of specialization, choices of spells and metamagics will vary little from one Sorcerer to another". Because indeed, if you had to craft a character with just a "role" set, without knowing whichever party you are gonna end with, you will certainly fall back on the "safest" choices.

As long as one plays different Sorcerers in different party compositions though, there is really no reason to end with the same character feature-wise... :)

[Specter]

The only optimal way to play a sorcerer in 5e is to mix it with at least 2 levels of paladin.

Now you've taken the sub-optimal sorcerer and added:

1. A ton of extra AC so you're not a walking liability for healing energy.
2. The ability to cure 2 poisons or diseases a day for free, or pull 10 people up from unconscious.
3. A way turn all those spell slots into something useful outside of the extremely limited spells you can cast.
4. Extra versatility for your metamagic with the new melee cantrips.

The first time you quicken dimension door to take yourself and your held-action rogue right up against an enemy caster and their body guard, then unleash a twinned Booming Blade with two-handed weapon, adding smites on each, and re-rolling 1's and 2's on the sword damage, booming blade damage, and smite damage, doubling everything if you get a crit - you'll never even look at

1) the fact that you'll have two less sorcery points than normal and one less level of spells is already a pretty solid reason not to multi.
2) Going Paladin requires boosting not only CHA and CON like a 'vanilla' sorcerer, but also STR, which gives you less ASI's. Add that to the fact that you'll have one less ASI in general, and your build will be online only at late levels, and with little to no feats.

[Byke]

I would daresay that this feeling of yours just reflect the fact that yourself always play the same kind of Sorcerer (or other casters), with the same kind of party.

A fair statement, I do play with a consistent 6 man table (Where 3 of us DM). We each have our class/role preferences mine is always some kind of gish.


I would more or less agree if someone said that "for each kind of specialization, choices of spells and metamagics will vary little from one Sorcerer to another". Because indeed, if you had to craft a character with just a "role" set, without knowing whichever party you are gonna end with, you will certainly fall back on the "safest" choices.

Herein lies the problem, as both of your statements are true. The specialization reduces the Sorcerer’s versatility, which could be argued is not optimal (Blight!?! ). I enjoy the challenge, but many do not and many more do not understand the class.

As for the second statement, if you were bringing a Sorcerer to a new table and the role was defined as caster, the “safest” or most “versatile” spell and MM choices are the most optimal.


As long as one plays different Sorcerers in different party compositions though, there is really no reason to end with the same character feature-wise... :)

Agreed a Sorcerer could narrow there spell list and MM to fit a party composition and at consistent table that works fine. But for those that do not have that, (IE AL and bringing their characters to a new table/adventure) doing so would be a detriment.

No other caster has this issue, also bringing two of the same caster class to a table can easily be solved by simply memorizing different spells. This cannot be done by Sorcerer's without DM fiat. It begs the question is the cost of MM to high or could Sorcerers uses some quality of life changes?

[Waazraath]

Is the homebrew posted on the board somewhere? I'd love to see it. And bookmark it.


I'm sorry, but I think this statement is flatly untrue. Once you get past 3rd Level spells, basically every Sorcerer spell can be divided into one of three categories: Spells for Blasting Folk, Spells for Charming Folk, and Spells for Transporting Folk (and most optimizers will tell you to skip that last group, because it doesn't come up often enough to justify using one of your few spells known). Put it like this: Sorcerers don't get a single Illusion spell after 5th Level. They don't get any Divination spells after 6th Level. All of their Necromancy spells are Spells for Blasting Folk, and they stop at 7th Level. And, yes, you can make up for this a bit by taking Wish as your one 9th Level spell...but that just feeds back into my earlier complaint that there are only two 9th Level spells (Meteor Shower and Wish) that are conceivably worth taking for a Sorcerer.

That's your choice for your Sorcerer's magical capstone: a Spell for Blasting Folk Really Hard and a Spell for Closing the Massive Gaps in Your Spell List.

Animate objects as summoning? Several wall and area-spells with duration (wall of fire/stone, incendiary cloud, cloudkill)? Reverse gravity? At least they have very nice battlefield controll spells as well.

[Byke]

Animate objects as summoning? Several wall and area-spells with duration (wall of fire/stone, incendiary cloud, cloudkill)? Reverse gravity? At least they have very nice battlefield controll spells as well.

Plane Shift - transportation or a save or die spell.

[Citan]

No other caster has this issue, also bringing two of the same caster class to a table can easily be solved by simply memorizing different spells. This cannot be done by Sorcerer's without DM fiat. It begs the question is the cost of MM to high or could Sorcerers uses some quality of life changes?
I really disagree here. ;)
While Clerics and Druids have obviously not this problem since you can change the prepared spells at will (well, not *that much* but still a bit, see below)...

Bards
Bards can be heavily exposed to that "safe build" problem: I love all the options they can get, but barring the level 6 Magic Secrets, who would expect a Bard not to have...
- Vicious Mockery? Because that's the only damaging cantrip Bard gets.
- Minor Illusion? Because that's (with Prestidigitation) in the top of thematically fitting cantrips, and very useful too.
- Healing Words? Because that's the best healing spell.
- Dissonant Whispers? Because that's the only exclusive 1st level spell, plus it's great in the first place.
- Heat Metal? Because one of the best debuffs Bard can get at that level.
- Blindness? Same.
- Enhance Ability? Best buff Bard can have at that level.
- Invisibility? Because you are a Bard ^^, and useful any time.
Etc etc...
- Bestow Curse? Best 3rd level single-target debuff. Who wouldn't get it?
- Hypnotic Pattern or Fear: one of them will always be taken, because best 3rd level mass debuff a Bard could get.
- Greater Invisibility? Same difference.
- Polymorph? Honestly, would you know any caster NOT taking Polymorph if he doesn't know what to expect tomorrow?

I already listed more than half-a-dozen spells, and I'm really confident that if you ask anybody "what Bard spells would you learn if you didn't know anything about your future party or campaign", 90% would include all of them for an appropriate-level character.
The funny thing is: at level 7, barring Lore Bard, you know only 10 spells. So much for the differenciation.

Wizards
As long as your DM does not provide you extra spells, you are stuck with the ones you learn.
Obviously the matter is much less significant than with the Bard, considering you start with 6 spell known and pick 2 more every level, so at level 7 you would know 6+2*6=18 spells.

Then again, see how many spells any Wizard really want to know:
Minor Illusion (confer above) or Mage Hand, one of the weapon cantrips or Shocking Grasp, Firebolt or Ray of Frost will always be in Wizard's outfit.
1st level spells? Absorb Element & Shield (protect yourself), Magic Missile (we all like reliable damage), Chromatic Orb (you are set against any single enemy), Alarm (people count on your rituals, and this one is the most essential to have).
2nd level? Blindness (see above), Blur or Mirror Image paired with Misty Step (protection), Rope Trick (who would not want a safe for short rests), Phantasmal Force (possibly the most reliable single-target control).
3rd level? Haste (best melee buff) or Slow (best friendly debuff) or Fly (useful always), Fireball (best scaling AOE), Bestow Curse (see above), Counterspell (obvious), Leomund's Tiny Hut (obvious), Glyph of Warding (obvious).
4th level? Polymorph (see above), Greater Invisibility (see above), Wall of Fire (best battlefield control of that level), Conjure Minor Elementals (first spell you have to break action economy).

Again, most of these spells (maybe not Conjure?) would be "sure-take" for any random people you task to create a "good for anything" Wizard. And I listed how many of them? Even taking my "this or that" into account, there are already more than everything a Wizard could learn: and I made a very contestable choice of not including any Detect spell, or Gentle Repose ritual (indispensable without Cleric in the party), or Animate Dead (great even if you are not of related School).

Warlock
Most Warlocks not taking Hex will be frowned upon. Same with Eldricht Blast.
Misty Step is a given for most Warlocks (barring UA), since nearly as frail as other casters, Darkness is one of the most recommended because versatile + Devil Sight shenanigans, Shatter is the only good AOE Warlock can get besides Fiend, Counterspell is a given as well as Hypnotic Pattern or Fear (best group debuff)...

And Warlocks have only 2 slots for half their life, and at level 7 know 8 spells.
Take that, versatility!

See the pattern?
Even Clerics and Druids could see a case made for them: anyone expects a Cleric to have at the very least Bless, Healing Words, Sanctuary, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians and Revivify prepared anytime of any day (I'd personally add Bestow Curse or Guiding Bolt, Aid or Warding Bond and either Lesser Restoration or Remove Curse, but I know not being representative here ^^). At level 7 an optimized Cleric can prepare 11 spells, in addition to the spells that are set by the Domain. So even if he can change the spell list, in real world at least half of his selection is fixed, because he knows that these are spells his party is counting on.

Druids have fortunately more leeway because they don't really have a clear role defined, but you would probably be surprised if any Druid started his day without at the very least Healing Words, Heat Metal, Enhance Ability, Conjure Animals and Polymorph at the ready (I'd add at least Pass Without Trace and Plant Growth, maybe even Moonbeam and either Wind Wall or Wall of Fire as the must-have, but that's just me).

See the pattern?
And that get worse once you take slots into account: a level 3 Wizard may have 8 spells prepared, but how many of the 1st level slot will he use on Shield or Absorb Elements? Maybe even Misty Step?
How often will a level 5 Cleric cast anything else than Bless/Healing Words, Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians (for tankers) or Hold Person/Bestow Curse (for backliners)? Except in those occurences in which you can anticipate fairly accurately the presence or absence of fights (and thus change all spells and blow everything on utility), in most days, you will just circle those 4 spells. And that's not a bad thing, that's just you doing your main job (heal and support) in an efficient manner.

It's even worse with the Warlock obviously, lesser so with the Druid, but the same kind of statement can be made about any caster: however versatile you are in theory, most of the time you'll fall back on a handful of spells, because you know how to use them efficiently and, more importantly, your party knows when to expect them and how to benefit of them. ;)

TL;DR
When you read the PHB, "oh my god Sorcerers are so limited". That doesn't pan out quite as much in reality.

If you make a "standard" character, then any caster will have a great chunk of his spells laid out for him, because people -especially of the optimizers kind, but not only- will expect some tactics or role-defining spells to be always at the ready and used regularly.

If you make a custom-tailored character to perfectly complement your party's strengths and weaknesses, then Sorcerer is at least as good as other casters in doing so, balancing the lesser number of spells with higher "base versatility" of those spells and metamagic (since you talk about DM fiat, let's recall that the Wizard is the most dependant on it really. DM not giving any "spell as loot/purchase" -or not giving the ones you want- may behave like a perfect ***hole, but that still is his prerogative: his world, his rules ^^).

That's why, really, the "low number of spell known" is not as big as people around here make it to be.

[SharkForce]

But you can twin, heightened charm. Heightened fear with distance, you can shut down opposing forces with a 60' cone emanating from you

The beauty of 5E is 1st level spells are still potent, and cantrips are very potent

But you are right about the sorcerer, they are sometimes really just an archer with firebolts instead of arrows, and persuasion instead of stealth

Not every party will have a sorcerer in them, and often a warlock might be better because of eldritch blast

But in the right party they are very effective if the wizard/cleric/ or bard can carry the utility part

And like any class, with 13 in intelligence we can all have ritual caster wizard

What I do at my table, I allow players to have access to all metamagic and they can switch them out once a day so I see more than twinned and quickened spells. So maybe I will see fear cast with heighten and distance.

Next time you and your friends roll up a new game, if there is a wizard being created, roll up a sorcerer and have fun

you can't use two metamagic techniques on a single spell unless otherwise specified (which, so far, means you can empower and do something else, since no other metamagic specifies).

regarding the value of a variety of spells: you're joking right? even with their limited list, sorcerers would love to have a ton of spells that they could regularly use.

from first level spells alone, it would be great to have magic missile (it's reliable), mage armour (if not otherwise obtaining armour), shield, feather fall, silent image, and fog cloud. depending on what you intend to do, maybe also disguise self, chromatic orb, or any of the EE spells.

at second level, it isn't hard to imagine *wanting* to have blur, blindness/deafness, alter self, enhance ability, enlarge/reduce, hold person, invisibility, levitate, mirror image, misty step, shatter, suggestion, and web. depending on DM rulings and what you want to do, add in phantasmal force, scorching ray, and gust of wind as well, plus pyrotechnics, snilloc's snowball swarm, maximilian's earthen grasp, earthbind, and maybe aganazzar's scorcher from EE.

i can *trivially* find 15 spells in level 1 and 2 alone that i would *love* to have room for on a sorcerer, and many of them could see regular use. and again, that's with a limited spell list. give me whatever they're going to call the newer UA favoured soul and i can add a bunch more that i would want to make room for.

going up to those level 6 spells, i'd love to have sunbeam (great synergy with quicken, and blind can be very useful on some enemies, plus a much better than cantrip attack), mass suggestion, and globe of invulnerability at the very least. potentially also eyebite, circle of death, chain lightning (it's an AoE nuke that isn't fire so it gives you a second element, and doesn't hit allies), disintegrate (there are a few key things that disintegrate can solve that other spells can't, and it's also a fairly reliable single-target damage spell good for low-dex bosses), heck, basically "not move earth" (and seriously, why the heck is such a situational spell in there when great thematic spells like transmute rock are not?).

[Citan]

you can't use two metamagic techniques on a single spell unless otherwise specified (which, so far, means you can empower and do something else, since no other metamagic specifies).

regarding the value of a variety of spells: you're joking right? even with their limited list, sorcerers would love to have a ton of spells that they could regularly use.

from first level spells alone, it would be great to have magic missile (it's reliable), mage armour (if not otherwise obtaining armour), shield, feather fall, silent image, and fog cloud. depending on what you intend to do, maybe also disguise self, chromatic orb, or any of the EE spells.

at second level, it isn't hard to imagine *wanting* to have blur, blindness/deafness, alter self, enhance ability, enlarge/reduce, hold person, invisibility, levitate, mirror image, misty step, shatter, suggestion, and web. depending on DM rulings and what you want to do, add in phantasmal force, scorching ray, and gust of wind as well, plus pyrotechnics, snilloc's snowball swarm, maximilian's earthen grasp, earthbind, and maybe aganazzar's scorcher from EE.

i can *trivially* find 15 spells in level 1 and 2 alone that i would *love* to have room for on a sorcerer, and many of them could see regular use. and again, that's with a limited spell list. give me whatever they're going to call the newer UA favoured soul and i can add a bunch more that i would want to make room for.

You realize that what you say is basically the same equal problem for every caster barring Druids (prepared spells + most versatile in genre spellist) right? Confer my post just above.

Warlocks are obviously the most suffering in that regard.
Bards have a great spell list, but one that stonewalls several kind of spells (mainly damage, AOE or single) and has a very limited selection in others (conjuration, environment control).
Same could be said for Clerics that are even more channeled towards divination/protection/healing.
Even Wizards will struggle to really be versatile without DM fiat, unless they decide to ditch everything usually spent on preserving their own life (Shield, Mage Armor, Absorb Elements, Mirror Image, Blur etc) -which implies in essence that they know they can count on party for cover, which implies consequently you are already tailoring your character for your party-... To squeeze out a few more "learning slots" that can be spent on versatility.

That's why multiclassing is a thing. ;)
If you do like as much so many low-level spells (which I don't criticize, I'm the same actually ^^), making a small dip or going as far as dual-classing is a worthy investment.

[Byke]

I really disagree here. ;)

That's why, really, the "low number of spell known" is not as big as people around here make it to be.

It seems we disagree on somethings.... but not all. I agree that every class does have a set of optimal spells. That said the number of spells known allows them to have some flex to individualize and create an identity. As well their base abilities continue to scale as they level.

Bards (Lore) 26 spells (22 base and 4 college from any school < 5th)

Warlock (Tome) Really shouldn't be in the comparison - 15 known + 8 invocations (many of which can be 1/d spells Polymorph / Conjure Ele) and "if" they take the Tome invocation that's approximately another 30+ ritual spells. Also if the DM balances the encounters properly and puts in 4-6 short rests, they end up casting as many spells as a "full" caster.

Wizard - I will not argue this one, if the only point is a mean DM won't give me access to scrolls or another casters spell book. It's never happened in any campaign I have played in and in every WoTC published adventure I can remember there is always a spell book/scrolls. As for how many spell do they want to know the answer is always ALL of them.

While at lower level the pattern may be to cast lower level spells in higher level slots that simply means that the scaling or benefit from lower level spells are very strong. Bless, Shield Absorb element are used all the way to 20th. It is partially due to cantrip and lower level spells scaling and bounded accuracy (but this is system design and not a failure in the class spells).

At the end of the day what are we really disagreeing on?

You can build an effective sorcerer with 15 spells known. But no other class has to suffer such a narrow focus for their base class abilities. So it was done for flavor reasons?

That said there are some quality of life issues that need to be addressed:

- More metamagic options as they level, new metamagic option like Energy Substitution baseline.
- Revised subclasses - where is the Sorcerer Lore Master equivalent? (or at least on par with Shadow Sorcerer)
- Some kind of fix or bonus to match the fluff - whether it's as simple as not requiring an arcane focus or an improvised spell slot....something. Because as it stands the class and the class description are not aligned.
- How about some Sorcerer only spells?
- A revision of spells that should be on the sorcerer spells list....Grease....Absorb Element....Find Familiar...Wall of Force.
**edit #2**
- How about a meaningful capstone ability like the other casters, that's not eclipsed by multi-classing 2 levels into warlcok
- SP recovery on short rest

If you disagree with these let me know....

Edit - spelling

[SharkForce]

You realize that what you say is basically the same equal problem for every caster barring Druids (prepared spells + most versatile in genre spellist) right? Confer my post just above.

Warlocks are obviously the most suffering in that regard.
Bards have a great spell list, but one that stonewalls several kind of spells (mainly damage, AOE or single) and has a very limited selection in others (conjuration, environment control).
Same could be said for Clerics that are even more channeled towards divination/protection/healing.
Even Wizards will struggle to really be versatile without DM fiat, unless they decide to ditch everything usually spent on preserving their own life (Shield, Mage Armor, Absorb Elements, Mirror Image, Blur etc) -which implies in essence that they know they can count on party for cover, which implies consequently you are already tailoring your character for your party-... To squeeze out a few more "learning slots" that can be spent on versatility.

That's why multiclassing is a thing. ;)
If you do like as much so many low-level spells (which I don't criticize, I'm the same actually ^^), making a small dip or going as far as dual-classing is a worthy investment.

most of those other classes can switch spells more easily, or have other abilities they can use, like warlock invocations or bardic inspiration.

also, the sorcerer spell list is limited in its own area of specialty. grease? nope. wall of force? nope. flaming sphere? nope. melf's acid arrow? nope (not great, but it's definitely within a dragon sorcerer's area of expertise). bestow curse? nope. evard's black tentacles? nope. fire shield? nope. bigby's hand? nope. conjure (anything)? nope. flesh to stone? nope. and that sort of thing continues. even in elemental evil. absorb elements? nope. elemental bane? nope. transmute rock? nope. whirlwind? nope.

i mean, if they were removing stuff like locate creature and move earth, fine. a class with very few spells known and very low flexibility in what those spells are from day to day is probably better off not having that on their list to avoid trap options. but they're missing options that are thematic *and* flexible as well. spells that would be ideal for a sorcerer.

[Byke]

most of those other classes can switch spells more easily, or have other abilities they can use, like warlock invocations or bardic inspiration.

also, the sorcerer spell list is limited in its own area of specialty. grease? nope. wall of force? nope. flaming sphere? nope. melf's acid arrow? nope (not great, but it's definitely within a dragon sorcerer's area of expertise). bestow curse? nope. evard's black tentacles? nope. fire shield? nope. bigby's hand? nope. conjure (anything)? nope. flesh to stone? nope. and that sort of thing continues. even in elemental evil. absorb elements? nope. elemental bane? nope. transmute rock? nope. whirlwind? nope.

i mean, if they were removing stuff like locate creature and move earth, fine. a class with very few spells known and very low flexibility in what those spells are from day to day is probably better off not having that on their list to avoid trap options. but they're missing options that are thematic *and* flexible as well. spells that would be ideal for a sorcerer.

I think I just posted the exact same thing/sentiment :)

[coredump]

I agree that metamagic should be the sorc 'niche', but in that case they need a lot more than what they have.

I am against giving them more spells known....that is for other classes... Sorcs should get a lot more metamagic known. I would likely give them about double what they get now.

Sure they only know a few spells, but they can cast each one of them many different ways.

That would give them a role no one else has.

[EvilAnagram]

I agree that metamagic should be the sorc 'niche', but in that case they need a lot more than what they have.

I am against giving them more spells known....that is for other classes... Sorcs should get a lot more metamagic known. I would likely give them about double what they get now.

Sure they only know a few spells, but they can cast each one of them many different ways.

That would give them a role no one else has.

Honestly, I played a level ten Sorcerer and felt spoiled by my metamagic options. Between Subtle, Quicken, and Heighten I had all my bases covered, and I never felt at a loss for options. Certainly, I would have loved to have more options, but I think too many options with too few resources to use them can paralyze a player's ability to make decisions.

[TheUser]

Honestly, I played a level ten Sorcerer and felt spoiled by my metamagic options. Between Subtle, Quicken, and Heighten I had all my bases covered, and I never felt at a loss for options. Certainly, I would have loved to have more options, but I think too many options with too few resources to use them can paralyze a player's ability to make decisions.

There are also limitations with being able to use only 1 per casting of a spell and exclusivity/compatibility options:

You can't empower stinking cloud or twin scorching rays nor would you need to subtle spell a hypnotic pattern (holding an arcane focus lets you perform the somatic component).

Then you have to think about how the limited spell list plays back into this; you no longer have enough spells that can take advantage of the many metamagic options you desire.

It's always felt like a stupid request; I say if people want it, by all means, blow your sorcery points more readily and have a less refined spell focus across your already limited spell list :P

[Theodoxus]

My general problem with meta magic is that it's not particularly meta. The most meta is subtle, which has decent uses in social encounters, but in combat is pretty useless - unless your sorc has been otherwise compromised (silent zone, pinned, etc.)

Let's get some true metamagic options. Damage modulation, saving throw modulation, delayed effects... Lore Master wizard showed that WotC can think in the right direction, even if they didn't give it to the right class.