How Viable is a Barbarian/Swordsage character?

[PunkManiak]

I'm working on a character idea for a high level campaign, starting at level 10 and going to 30. I'm a bit of a newbie to D&D, so I'm unsure of the viability of some classes and multi-class combinations. The idea I've been working on is a warrior wielding a greatsword and throwing knives wearing only light armor, specifically fur, coming from an Elven race of Nomadic Hunter Gatherers from the Tundra. He's inspired by Jack Frost, and will be fast and strong, almost gliding and dancing his way through combat while destroying enemies in front of him. For skills he'll be primarily invested in Athletic skills i.e. Jump, Tumble, Climb, and Swim, with some skill in tracking, moving silently, and survival. (Maybe eventually a little skill in drumming.)This is primarily, because he will have been a hunter and warrior.

Swordsage would primarily be for flavoring, if I'm permitted to refluff the Dessert Wind maneuvers as Arctic Wind using Ice instead of Fire, to better represent the character's inspiration from Jack Frost.

Barbarian would be his bread and butter for combat, utilizing his GS and strength to great effect.

My big concern with the class combo I'm looking at is, what effect would Rage have on a swordsage's maneuvers? Would they be useable at all during a rage? Additionally would he be able to use throwing knives proficiently?

(The race I'm referencing is the one proposed by JSketchy in a prior thread, with the penalty to Charisma being changed to a Wisdom penalty.)

[Venger]

I'm working on a character idea for a high level campaign, starting at level 10 and going to 30. I'm a bit of a newbie to D&D, so I'm unsure of the viability of some classes and multi-class combinations. The idea I've been working on is a warrior wielding a greatsword and throwing knives wearing only light armor, specifically fur, coming from an Elven race of Nomadic Hunter Gatherers from the Tundra. He's inspired by Jack Frost, and will be fast and strong, almost gliding and dancing his way through combat while destroying enemies in front of him. For skills he'll be primarily invested in Athletic skills i.e. Jump, Tumble, Climb, and Swim, with some skill in tracking, moving silently, and survival. (Maybe eventually a little skill in drumming.)This is primarily, because he will have been a hunter and warrior.

Swordsage would primarily be for flavoring, if I'm permitted to refluff the Dessert Wind maneuvers as Arctic Wind using Ice instead of Fire, to better represent the character's inspiration from Jack Frost.

Barbarian would be his bread and butter for combat, utilizing his GS and strength to great effect.

My big concern with the class combo I'm looking at is, what effect would Rage have on a swordsage's maneuvers? Would they be useable at all during a rage?

(The race I'm referencing is the one proposed by JSketchy in a prior thread, with the penalty to Charisma being changed to a Wisdom penalty.)
If you're new to D&D, I feel obligated to tell you that epic play straight up does not work, especially for characters who don't have access to epic magic, so reconsider that part if it's not set in stone.

I assume you're referring to jack frost from "rise of the guardians" or are you thinking of a different depiction?

thfing and throwing are pretty exclusive in 3.5 and throwing sucks mightily. sworsages aren't much good at either.

if you're taking swordsage, which is a perfectly serviceable class pretty much straight 1-20 without any dips or splashes necessary that's fine. I wouldn't advise more than 1 level of barbarian for pounce, it offers literally nothing else.

yes, you're not forbidden from using maneuvers as a rule while raging, although most diamond mind maneuvers would be off-limits.

using a greatsword and being strength focused as a basic ubercharger with a barbarian/frenzied berserker chassis is one thing

being a swordsage is another. there is no synergy between these ideas, so it would behoove you to pick which one you'd like to focus on. it sounds like you're more interested in swordsage, so go for that, it's a fun class.

if you're open to a more complicated build, snowflake wardance seems like a good thematic fit if you want to take a left turn and have a bard chassis. a bardblade would be able to do most of what you describe decently.

[PunkManiak]

@Venger

The problem is, the character is meant to be a very proficient warrior, and rage would help him do just that. Unless of course I'm missing something in regards to the swordsage, since this character is meant to be a damage dealer. If it's viable as a party's damage dealing warrior with decent survivability. I can stick with that and just take a one level dip into Barbarian. And he won't be a thief, rather a thief's bodyguard and back-up.

Throwing isn't any good, even if you grab a feat or two for it?

Thanks for the advice, I'll keep it in mind.

[Venger]

@Venger

The problem is, the character is meant to be a very proficient warrior, and rage would help him do just that. Unless of course I'm missing something in regards to the swordsage, since this character is meant to be a damage dealer. If it's viable as a party's damage dealing warrior with decent survivability. I can stick with that and just take a one level dip into Barbarian.

Throwing isn't any good, even if you grab a feat or two for it?

Thanks for the advice, I'll keep it in mind.

what do you mean specifically (I mean with regards to game mechanics) by "proficient warrior?" do you just want to do a lot of hp damage? if that's true, then a stock ubercharger with the shock trooper line is probably fine. if your group's low-op then you might look at the frostrager class. it has a lot of taxes, but it's an ice-themed barbarian class, which seems like something you would be interested in.

swordsage can deal decent damage, but its draw is its versatility, since maneuvers give you a lot of options besides just hitting enemies with a stick, letting you inflict statuses, teleport, do light bfc, etc. some way to pounce (easiest gotten through a 1 lvl barb dip) is needed for any competent melee character.

throwing is terrible even if you structure your entire build around it, which takes way more than one or two feats. it suffers from the same problems as archery while having much less support.

sure. how do any of the other options grab you?

[PunkManiak]

In combat he won't just be an ubercharger, stylistically he'll be dancing his way past enemy attacks and jacking them up with his GS. His ice themed maneuvers would typically just be to augment and enhance his combat, not that much else, I.E. Imbuing his GS with ice damage, or freezing the ground to make it hard for his opponents to fight him properly, are examples of what he might do. Frostrager actually sounds interesting and like something I might want to look into. (However if I remember right a swordsage gets their Wisdom modifier added to their AC, which I'd hate to lose.)

[Venger]

In combat he won't just be an ubercharger, stylistically he'll be dancing his way past enemy attacks and jacking them up with his GS. His ice themed maneuvers would typically just be to augment and enhance his combat, not that much else, I.E. Imbuing his GS with ice damage, or freezing the ground to make it hard for his opponents to fight him properly, are examples of what he might do. Frostrager actually sounds interesting and like something I might want to look into. (However if I remember right a swordsage gets their Wisdom modifier added to their AC, which I'd hate to lose.)

ok, so are those just fluff examples, or do you want a mechanical way of replicating those specific abilities? desert wind can add ice damage that since you've gotten it changed to ice damage. casting ice slick (cleric 1) is a little trickier, but if you're not married to it mechanically, you could fluff the setting sun maneuvers, which're trip-based as shooting ice on the floor.

why do you think frostrager would make you lose wis to AC?

barbarian/unarmed swordsage is actually a good entry to frostrager, though it obviously retards your maneuver progression, but you don't sound overly concerned about that.

something like unarmed swordsage 7/barb1/frostrager5/xx sounds like it would suit you. from that point you might consider a traditional choice like frenzied berserker.

[PunkManiak]

I'm not married to the swordsage class, but I do rather like it, and it seems like the most efficient way to make the character.

Musts for what I'm looking for are the greatsword as his main weapon, frost abilities for fluff, and light armor. His throwing knives would primarily be used for hunting, they might be able to be used in combat but they wouldn't be anywhere close to primary means of attack, possibly a tertiary one, when of use.

I'd actually really like a build that allows me to play as a mighty and dexterous two-handed warrior, who dances his way past his opponents attacks, with access to a few mystical maneuvers, but... he still requires decent survivabilty in the center of a fight as well as good damage dealing.

It's part of why I'd been thinking 5-7Swordsage levels for the dessert wind maneuvers, with the rest in Barb, but from what you've told me that isn't very viable.

[Sleven]

First of all, I strongly disagree with Venger here. Barbarian + Swordsage can be a very powerful class combination, however, you're going to want to be a lot more flexible with your weapons of choice.

Setting Sun is one of the most powerful schools of maneuvers, and best of all, it works amazingly well on a Strength or Dexterity-based chassis. I can easily see you utilizing Setting Sun strikes in tandem with Desert Wind boosts for a powerful control + damage character. Tripping (which most of Setting Sun is based off of) is one of the most potent abilities available to melee characters, however, it works best with either unarmed attacks, or weapons that allow you to trip as part of their attacks (such as spiked chains).

If you were willing to play a frost themed Goliath, they can increase their size category by 1 while raging (which helps your tripping, and Setting Sun throws as a result). Furthermore, two levels of Barbarian can nab you not only Pounce, but Improved Trip as well (without requiring Combat Expertise). Base build would be something like Swordsage X / Barbarian 2 / [Anything] X.

If you want to get into throwing, I would recommend one of two things:
1) Stick with Swordsage, but choose to specialize in unarmed strikes, getting the Necklace of Natural Attacks (from Savage Species) and adding throwing properties to your necklace so you can throw your fists (this is explicitly possible, by the item's description)

2) Scrap Swordsage and going with Warblade instead. Warblade will easily qualify you for the Bloodstorm Blade prestige class, which allows you to use melee feats with thrown weapons (to me, this sounds exactly like what you're looking for). If you still want to Swordsage, you could also use 2 feats on Iron Heart maneuvers to qualify for Bloodstorm Blade, but to me it's not worth the feat cost.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Given your description I feel that the feat snowflake ward ancestors should home how be involved, but that would necessitate being a bard. If you are willing to worship Gruumsh, the chief god of the orcs, he has a nice prestige class in Dragon Magazine #311 that grants some rage, full bab, and some nifty features including a buff to inspire courage, full scaling on bardic music, and the ability to use some musics while raging.

Arctic Orcs are not terrible and you can do savage bard 5/battle howler 5/stuff that advances bard goodness 10 and get something like what you wanted.

Edit: Forgot to wanted to be an elf. Your tribe are race traitors! Problem solved.

[Venger]

I'm not married to the swordsage class, but I do rather like it, and it seems like the most efficient way to make the character.

Musts for what I'm looking for are the greatsword as his main weapon, frost abilities for fluff, and light armor. His throwing knives would primarily be used for hunting, they might be able to be used in combat but they wouldn't be anywhere close to primary means of attack, possibly a tertiary one, when of use.

I'd actually really like a build that allows me to play as a mighty and dexterous two-handed warrior, who dances his way past his opponents attacks, with access to a few mystical maneuvers, but... he still requires decent survivabilty in the center of a fight as well as good damage dealing.

It's part of why I'd been thinking 5-7Swordsage levels for the dessert wind maneuvers, with the rest in Barb, but from what you've told me that isn't very viable.

The central point I'm trying to get across is that being str focused and being dex focuesd are mutually exclusive because they require investment of resources you cannot later change around, such as feats and ability scores.

if you want to use a greatsword and be built around str and hp damage, that's fine

if you want to dance around the battlefield, a dex focus (shadow blade, weapon finesse, twf, etc) would suit you better

5-7 swordsage with desert wind stuff, a 1 lvl barb dip, frostrager, then frenzied berserker is perfectly viable, just prioritize strength and focus on that kind of combat style and you'll be perfectly fine


First of all, I strongly disagree with Venger here. Barbarian + Swordsage can be a very powerful class combination, however, you're going to want to be a lot more flexible with your weapons of choice.

Setting Sun is one of the most powerful schools of maneuvers, and best of all, it works amazingly well on a Strength or Dexterity-based chassis. I can easily see you utilizing Setting Sun strikes in tandem with Desert Wind boosts for a powerful control + damage character. Tripping (which most of Setting Sun is based off of) is one of the most potent abilities available to melee characters, however, it works best with either unarmed attacks, or weapons that allow you to trip as part of their attacks (such as spiked chains).

If you were willing to play a frost themed Goliath, they can increase their size category by 1 while raging (which helps your tripping, and Setting Sun throws as a result). Furthermore, two levels of Barbarian can nab you not only Pounce, but Improved Trip as well (without requiring Combat Expertise). Base build would be something like Swordsage X / Barbarian 2 / [Anything] X.

If you want to get into throwing, I would recommend one of two things:
1) Stick with Swordsage, but choose to specialize in unarmed strikes, getting the Necklace of Natural Attacks (from Savage Species) and adding throwing properties to your necklace so you can throw your fists (this is explicitly possible, by the item's description)

2) Scrap Swordsage and going with Warblade instead. Warblade will easily qualify you for the Bloodstorm Blade prestige class, which allows you to use melee feats with thrown weapons (to me, this sounds exactly like what you're looking for). If you still want to Swordsage, you could also use 2 feats on Iron Heart maneuvers to qualify for Bloodstorm Blade, but to me it's not worth the feat cost.

having built and played many initiators, even for a focused tripper, setting sun is pretty lackluster. goliath is probably a good choice mechanically for race, but it sounds like he's pretty set on elf.does it
both are good ideas. as I mentioned earlier, a standard bardblade hits on many of the abilities that PunkManiak is looking for

[Rebel7284]

If you want throwing ability while using a greatsword, you may be interested in Bloodstorm Blade prestige class. Allowing all the feats normally used in melee to apply to thrown weapons and getting returning for free after a few levels is very nice!

Something like Barbarian 2/Swordsage 2/Warblade 1/Bloodstorm Blade 4/->more Swordsage.

If you're okay with a little bit of casting, you can do something like this instead:

Barbarian 1/Crusader 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage 1/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10

Because RKV progresses the intitiator level of ALL three TOB classes, you have a lot of flexibility when adding maneuvers depending on how you want them to be accessible. In addition, RKV's ability to get extra swift actions, Divine Impetus, is one of the best abilities in the game. It's not quite the same as swordsage, although you DO get Shadow Hand maneuvers.

[Venger]

If you want throwing ability while using a greatsword, you may be interested in Bloodstorm Blade prestige class. Allowing all the feats normally used in melee to apply to thrown weapons and getting returning for free after a few levels is very nice!

Something like Barbarian 2/Swordsage 2/Warblade 1/Bloodstorm Blade 4/->more Swordsage.

If you're okay with a little bit of casting, you can do something like this instead:

Barbarian 1/Crusader 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage 1/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10

Because RKV progresses the intitiator level of ALL three TOB classes, you have a lot of flexibility when adding maneuvers depending on how you want them to be accessible. In addition, RKV's ability to get extra swift actions, Divine Impetus, is one of the best abilities in the game. It's not quite the same as swordsage, although you DO get Shadow Hand maneuvers.
that looks pretty great too. shadow hand maneuvers offer some great mobility, especially with a character like this. throw some tiger claw in the mix to go with leap attack shock trooper goodies.

[Sleven]

having built and played many initiators, even for a focused tripper, setting sun is pretty lackluster. goliath is probably a good choice mechanically for race, but it sounds like he's pretty set on elf.does it
both are good ideas. as I mentioned earlier, a standard bardblade hits on many of the abilities that PunkManiak is looking for

Having played a large number of initiators myself, I don't where you're getting that idea. Not only does Setting Sun circumvent many of the limitations of standard tripping, there are too many ways to increase your size and/or size bonuses, ability bonuses, etc. for tripping to ever be ineffective on a Setting Sun user. Setting Sun is probably the most misunderstood school in Tome of Battle. It is the perfect blend between team-based and personally useful maneuvers. It has a plethora of mobility and defensive options that stay relevant throughout levels 1-20 (think Step of the Wind, Shifting Defense, Mirrored Pursuit, Fool's Strike, etc.) and strikes that scale extremely well until you hit 9th level maneuvers, at which point you gain the only Tome of Battle maneuver that comes anywhere near the power of 9th level spells in Tornado Throw.

I must have missed where he said elf was a "must have". In either case it's fairly irrelevant, you're going to have to rely more on items, feats, etc.

If he wants to go with a bardblade build and stick to his frost theme, I can't recommend Dragonfire Inspiration + Draconic Heritage enough. This will also allow his throwing to be relevant regardless of whether he specializes in it or not.

You might also want to look at the Exotic Weapon Master and Master Thrower prestige classes to nab a few abilities that enhance your throwing capabilities.

[Endarire]

Having advised a friend on building a Swordsage character mostly for ninja-like purposes, we agreed that a level or 2 dip in Barbarian were useful for Whirling Frenzy (a Rage variant), Pounce, and Uncanny Dodge/Improved Trip.

What do you like most about Swordsage?

Throwing can be made viable, but normally requires a tremendous investment of resources compared to charging. Tome of Battle has the Bloodstorm Blade PrC.

[Gruftzwerg]

First I want to add to what Venger said, that the epic game is not that what you are expecting in 3.5.
Most stuff from video games, from cartoon/manga characters over fantasy till science fiction can be fit into the first 20 lvls of 3.5. Some of them may have unique strong powers, but besides from that most wouldn't even get past lvl 10 or even 5!
As example World of Warcrafts endgame powerlvl is somewhere between lvl 5~10 imho.

So what is epic in 3.5?
Epic is, when the mundanes finally all can play their Conans and Indiana Jones to the full extend, while the "pointy hat guy" meanwhile aims for eternal power to make even the gods jealous..
That's the powergap in 3.5 and the DM needs to be aware of Epic spellcasting and how to "limit it" unless everybody is playing an epic caster.

Imho you can have "epic game feelings" starting around lvl 5 in 3.5 if you optimize enough. So think with your group about this topic.




Throwing isn't any good, even if you grab a feat or two for it?



As Endarire pointed out, Bloodstorm Blade is the way to go if you want a throwing focused build. You need a 4lvl dip into BSB to be able to full attack with you thrown "melee weapon". This further enables your ranged attacks to count as melee again, which opens the option to charge with your thrown weapon ( = option for a ubercharger build).

To make any mundane build working as damage dealer for high lvl play, you need to build an ubercharger (there are a few other option then ubercharger, but for the start this is the easiest and most efficient concept). You'll focus on charge and the related feats and items to increase its damage (Power Attack, Shock Trooper + anything that gives you charge multipliers).

Have a look at my Hammerdin of Moradin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527093)and ShurikeNado (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526875)builds. They both make use of the concept of BSB. Note that the shuriken build ain't limited to shuriken, it's just for the flavor. While the Hammerdin is stuck to his warhammer due to his classfeature. Have a look at em as inspiration how to build BSB uberchargers. You can apply the base construct of the BSB builds to any base class/prc combination you desire.

[Nifft]

coming from an Elven race of Nomadic Hunter Gatherers from the Tundra. He's inspired by Jack Frost, and will be fast and strong, almost gliding and dancing his way through combat while destroying enemies in front of him. For skills he'll be primarily invested in Athletic skills i.e. Jump, Tumble, Climb, and Swim, with some skill in tracking, moving silently, and survival. (Maybe eventually a little skill in drumming.)This is primarily, because he will have been a hunter and warrior.

If you're an Elf and a martial initiator, then you really ought to take a look at the archetypal Elf Initiator: Warblade 10 / Eternal Blade 10. It's possible to do better than that very simple build, but it's not easy. Eternal Blade is really good.


If you don't have to worry about multiclass penalties, you can easily replace a couple of the Warblade levels with Barbarian or Ranger (or any other full-BAB class, even Fighter).

For example: Ranger 1 / Barbarian 1 / Warblade 8 / Eternal Blade 10

For Barbarian features, you probably want Lion Spirit Totem (from Complete Champion) to replace Fast Movement -> Pounce, and the Whirling Frenzy variant from Arcana Unearthed which replaces Rage -> Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ). (Whirling Frenzy seems a lot more compatible with "dancing through combat".)

Iron Heart maneuvers are very much in-theme for a Barbarian.

[CozJa]

... the only Tome of Battle maneuver that comes anywhere near the power of 9th level spells in Tornado Throw...

Ok, since I'd really like to play a sowrdsage focusing on Setting Sun, could you please explain what is so amazing for Tornado Throw? Reading it nothing struck me as fantastic, but I'm curious now!

[Venger]

Ok, since I'd really like to play a sowrdsage focusing on Setting Sun, could you please explain what is so amazing for Tornado Throw? Reading it nothing struck me as fantastic, but I'm curious now!

You're not missing anything. Like all the setting sun throw maneuvers, it's just the same text with bigger numbers.

[Darrin]

I'm not sure which elven race JSketchy is referring to. If it's the Snow Elf from Frostburn, then those make pretty good Warblades, either as-written with the Cha penalty or switching the penalty to Wisdom. Either way, elven opens up Eternal Blade as an option. I'm fond of:

Barb 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 10.

This is mostly to pick up Pounce. Personally, I detest standard Barbarian rage (it gives you "fake HPs" and leads you into an early grave), and I will trade it away for Whirling Frenzy (Unearthed Arcana) if given a chance. You still can't use the Concentration skill, but there are still some Diamond Mind maneuvers that don't use Concentration. Ideally, you want to pick up Time Stands Still at ECL 19, but you'll need four Diamond Mind maneuvers as prereqs. Start with Moment of Perfect Mind (good to have outside of rage), Emerald Razor, then take the Hearing the Air stance at Warblade 4 or Bounding Assault at Warblade 5. Consider trading in Moment of Perfect Mind/Emerald Razor for Quicksilver Motion. Take Martial Stance: Stance of Alacrity at ECL 18, and then you should be all set for Time Stands Still next level.

Another option is to ditch Rage entirely. Use the "Simple Barbarian" ACF in Unearthed Arcana, which trades away Rage for the Ranger's Favored Enemy and Archery Combat Style. You still have Fast Movement, so you can trade that in for Pounce. If you're still interested in throwing things, then you can combine a two-level dip with Wolf Totem to pick up both Improved Trip and Rapid Shot.

Eternal Blade can also be used to make an "Idiot Crusader". This is a High-Optimization trick where all your Crusader maneuvers are granted to you at the beginning of your turn, so you can spam something like White Raven Tactics for an obscenely large number of turns during the same round. This can be achievable around ECL 16:

Barb 1/Fighter 2/Warblade 6/Crusader 1/Eternal Blade 10.

Briefly: When you take your Crusader level, you have an Initiator Level of 5.5, which is high enough to take White Raven Tactics as one of your Crusader maneuvers. Take the Extra Granted Maneuver feat at 12th or 15th. When Eternal Blade gives you an additional maneuver known, put it on the Warblade side. When Eternal Blade gives you an additional readied maneuver, put it on the Crusader side. At ECL 16, you know five Crusader maneuvers (including White Raven Tactics), and you get 5 granted maneuvers. Since you never have any maneuvers in reserve, you start every turn with a full complement of all your granted maneuvers. You may also note that at ECL 19, you can add Time Stands Still and another granted maneuver to your Crusader side, which means you can now use White Raven Tactics + Time Stands Still on every single initiative count in the round. It's not quite as impressive as epic spellcasting, but it's about as epic as melee gets.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm not married to the swordsage class, but I do rather like it, and it seems like the most efficient way to make the character.

Musts for what I'm looking for are the greatsword as his main weapon, frost abilities for fluff, and light armor. His throwing knives would primarily be used for hunting, they might be able to be used in combat but they wouldn't be anywhere close to primary means of attack, possibly a tertiary one, when of use.

I'd actually really like a build that allows me to play as a mighty and dexterous two-handed warrior, who dances his way past his opponents attacks, with access to a few mystical maneuvers, but... he still requires decent survivabilty in the center of a fight as well as good damage dealing.

It's part of why I'd been thinking 5-7Swordsage levels for the dessert wind maneuvers, with the rest in Barb, but from what you've told me that isn't very viable.
Venger is being kind of harsh, I think. For a start, there are Dex-based two-handed weapons. The Spiked Chain is possibly the best because it's compatible with Shadow Blade (Dex to damage with Shadow Hand weapons), but other examples include Elven Courtblades and any weapon you pay a little extra to make Feycrafted. Since you get a lot of damage from maneuvers and Power Attack, you can get away with a lower base Str bonus.

Throwing tends to require extra feats compared to archery, but it can be pretty nasty. A machine-gun thrower can stack TWF and Rapid Shot; a less ambitious guy can use Power Throw to power attack with thrown weapons. Or just Brutal Throw to be entirely strength-based. And Bloodstorm Blade makes throwing scary. If you're just looking to dabble when you can't use melee, though, don't worry too much about it.

Here's my thought, anyway: Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem) 1/Swashbuckler 3 (Arcane Stunt)/Swordsage 6*. Barbarian gets you pounce; Swashbuckler gets you Weapon Finesse and Int to damage (making up somewhat for the loss of Str; it also boosts thrown weapons, if you so desire). Four non-initiator levels gives you an IL of 2 going into Swordsage, meaning you pick your maneuvers with a total IL of 3, meaning you can jump straight to the excellent second-level guys. Power Attack and Leap Attack should be on top of your list, along with Adaptive Style to improve the Swordsage's recovery. EWP (Spiked Chain) and Shadow Blade would be a thematic alteration but an effectiveness boost, if you can take 'em.


*For best results, ask if you can use Kung-Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk to switch the Swordsage's Wis-based features to Int. I think that would be a pretty reasonable interpretation.

[Venger]

Venger is being kind of harsh, I think. For a start, there are Dex-based two-handed weapons. The Spiked Chain is possibly the best because it's compatible with Shadow Blade (Dex to damage with Shadow Hand weapons), but other examples include Elven Courtblades and any weapon you pay a little extra to make Feycrafted. Since you get a lot of damage from maneuvers and Power Attack, you can get away with a lower base Str bonus.

Throwing tends to require extra feats compared to archery, but it can be pretty nasty. A machine-gun thrower can stack TWF and Rapid Shot; a less ambitious guy can use Power Throw to power attack with thrown weapons. Or just Brutal Throw to be entirely strength-based. And Bloodstorm Blade makes throwing scary. If you're just looking to dabble when you can't use melee, though, don't worry too much about it.

Here's my thought, anyway: Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem) 1/Swashbuckler 3 (Arcane Stunt)/Swordsage 6*. Barbarian gets you pounce; Swashbuckler gets you Weapon Finesse and Int to damage (making up somewhat for the loss of Str; it also boosts thrown weapons, if you so desire). Four non-initiator levels gives you an IL of 2 going into Swordsage, meaning you pick your maneuvers with a total IL of 3, meaning you can jump straight to the excellent second-level guys. Power Attack and Leap Attack should be on top of your list, along with Adaptive Style to improve the Swordsage's recovery. EWP (Spiked Chain) and Shadow Blade would be a thematic alteration but an effectiveness boost, if you can take 'em.


*For best results, ask if you can use Kung-Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk to switch the Swordsage's Wis-based features to Int. I think that would be a pretty reasonable interpretation.

I never said there aren't dex-based two handed weapons. The point I'm making, which you seem to grasp, is that THFing (using a greatsword and focusing on strength, PA, and hp damage, etc) and being a finesse-based fighter are exclusive paths and each requires substantial investment of resources in different directions. there is not a lot of synergy between them and you're better off investing in one path or the other rather than trying to do both at the same time.

Those options both require EWP. spiked chain is fine if you're aoo-centered, but otherwise doesn't really pull its weight.

if you're not investing primarily in strength, then again, being a pa-based brute is not the best investment of your resources, and you're better off steering into the skid and investing in shadow blade and such

throwers struggle to keep up damage-wise even moreso than archers and similarly have trouble overcoming dr and similar. the options you mention will consume a large portion of the character's feats.

the stub relies on str, dex, int, and wis (assuming kung fu genius/carmendine monk aren't allowed.) again, melee has it hard enough, and you would be better off choosing to prioritize str or dex instead of trying to do both (and as a swordsage, pick dex, the class offers more support for it)

[Sleven]

Ok, since I'd really like to play a sowrdsage focusing on Setting Sun, could you please explain what is so amazing for Tornado Throw? Reading it nothing struck me as fantastic, but I'm curious now!

Because it has the power to single-handedly end encounters. It suddenly takes you from 1 throw as a standard action to [double movement/10ft throws in one round] with a scaling check and scaling damage on each throw. Because you can (with a reach of at least 10ft and Improved Trip) make a free attack on each throw. By the time you get it, your WBL can easily afford you ~90-170ft of movement without really trying. That's also assuming you didn't pick a race that can already do the same (or better).

You're also a Swordsage, which means you likely already have Quicksilver Motion. If not, you have Travel Devotion, Hustle, or some other form of move as swift/free action. This allows you to preempt your first throw with a +2 bonus for every 5ft you moved as a swift action before you walked up to your first victim. Assuming (on the low end) you only have 90ft of movement, that's a +36 on your first opposed trip check (not even counting Str or Dex), made better by the fact that you're likely a dedicated tripper (but the beauty of it is that you don't even have to be to require them to make a nigh unbeatable check). Have fun throwing around multiple Tarrasques like rag-dolls.

Once you start, you can throw once for every 10ft of movement, which adds a cumulative +4 to your next trip throughout the course of the maneuver. Each of those throws deals 2d6 damage +1d6 for every 5 points by which you win the opposed check, further increased by your free attacks from Improved Trip (if you so desire), and any additional falling damage you decide to make them take.

And that's just from a practical damage perspective. We can also throw opponents (or allies) an additional 10ft for every 5 points by which we win the opposed check. With one full round of actions, we can reposition our entire party, the enemy's entire party, and still have room to spare. Furthermore, by the nature of tripping via throwing, we are not limited by any directional axis on a 3-dimensional plane, meaning it's effective regardless of environment (because the prone status isn't as important with throwing as getting them where you want them).

It also makes for a great one-two punch in combination with the rest of your party, helping to conserve spells and keep spells relevant. For example, you can chuck flyers into Black Tentacles or gather everyone together for a Psion's fully augmented AoE blast chain. You can also toss people into traps, lava, out of reach, out of line of sight and effect, etc. The list goes on.

Anyways, those are just a few examples of what you can do with Tornado Throw. Putting it simply: people who diss Setting Sun and Tornado Throw lack creativity.


It's not quite as impressive as epic spellcasting, but it's about as epic as melee gets.

That's the sad truth of it.

I second Darrin here. If you do decide to play an initiator at epic levels the "Idiot Crusader" + White Raven Tactics + [Powerful Maneuver(s) of Choice] is the only way to do anything remotely close to your spellcasting compatriots.

Also note that you can create an "Idiot Crusader" by taking your Crusader level first/early on, and subsequently using another initiator class to trade away your Crusader maneuvers known.