What lvl spell should this be?

[Calthropstu]

I was thinking earlier about how to prevent ghosts and other incorporeal creatures from entering places, and wall of force leaves a lot to be desired. So I thought of a force room spell.
It would put the equivalent of a wall of force completely around a room (allowing for door gaps etc).
But placing a spell level on it eludes me. I am thinking 7, with a 9th level version that will completely protect a mansion or small castle. Would that be too powerful? I could see some thinking so.

[Venger]

forcecage is a 7, so this should be at least an 8

[ZamielVanWeber]

My first thought is that these are similar to Hallister's [Blah] Cage spells. They are 9th, cover a massive area, and combine areas if they touch.

[Gildedragon]

Depends. Does it stop other things?
If not: I'd say 3rd with a duration of hrs/CL, permanencyable, areawise it wards X 10' cubes against ghosts.

[Anxe]

Do you want it to just proof the room against Ethereal creatures or are you expecting this to provide tactical relevance in other situations because its an indestructible barrier?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Oh. If you want to seal an area vs incorporeal I would recommend a ton of ghostwall shelac. It lasts and blocks incorporeal

[Knaight]

My first thought is that these are similar to Hallister's [Blah] Cage spells. They are 9th, cover a massive area, and combine areas if they touch.

Those have a pretty glaring weakness though (that combined area means that you can go to the edge, put up a new one, and thus be inside) - this is a fair bit stronger.

[Crake]

If you're not averse to using oldschool material, according to the 2e volo's guide to all things magical gorgon's, xorn's, or medusa's blood can help:


It seems half of Faerûn now knows that gorgon's blood in the mortar and stucco of a building prevents astral and ethereal travel into or out of it and that lead sheeting or strong concentrations of lead in rock foils scrying magics, but there is far more to be learned. To be effective, the gorgon's blood must be in a solution of one drop to a pint of water or stronger and must be applied so that no area of the external walls larger than a large man's head is untouched by it. Xorn or medusa blood can be used instead, but it must be applied in the following complex formula: three drops of xorn blood or four drops of medusa blood and two drops of unholy water per pint of water. Needless to say, the second formula is not used within upon buildings belonging to or used by good or (most) neutral faiths.

Carrying around some gorgon's blood, mixing it with water, and polka dotting the room "so that no area of the external walls larger than a large man's head is untouched by it" should do the trick rather than blowing spells on it. Of course, that means going off and harvesting gorgon's blood.

[Calthropstu]

forcecage is a 7, so this should be at least an 8

Forcecage is an offensive spell, meant to be a trap. This is purely defensive, outlining only existing infrastructure. And the fact it would leave openings around existing doors makes it fairly useless as a trap.
However, it WOULD greatly strengthen said infrastructure. The tactical implications would be nice, making the "blow a hole in the wall" strategy useless, but most attacks use doors and windows anyway.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Forcecage is an offensive spell, meant to be a trap. This is purely defensive, outlining only existing infrastructure. And the fact it would leave openings around existing doors makes it fairly useless as a trap.
However, it WOULD greatly strengthen said infrastructure. The tactical implications would be nice, making the "blow a hole in the wall" strategy useless, but most attacks use doors and windows anyway.

However if the goal is to block Ethereal entry, then it doesn't serve its purpose. Sure it funnels intrusions to normal entrways but an Ethereal foe can still enter through a door.

[Vaern]

I wouldn't Wall of Force to be the best starting point. Wall of Force creates a considerably powerful free-standing barrier. What you're wanting to create doesn't need to make a room indestructible; it only needs to be just strong enough to be tangible. Something to the effect of Mage Armor, modified target the surface of an object rather than a creature. I'd say at 1st level it might cover a 10 foot square area, or at 3rd level it might cover a 10 foot square per caster level.

[Anxe]

Forcecage is an offensive spell, meant to be a trap. This is purely defensive, outlining only existing infrastructure. And the fact it would leave openings around existing doors makes it fairly useless as a trap.
However, it WOULD greatly strengthen said infrastructure. The tactical implications would be nice, making the "blow a hole in the wall" strategy useless, but most attacks use doors and windows anyway.

I'd probably make it a 5th level spell. 10 foot cube/level. Takes 5 minutes to cast.

[Calthropstu]

However if the goal is to block Ethereal entry, then it doesn't serve its purpose. Sure it funnels intrusions to normal entrways but an Ethereal foe can still enter through a door.

This is exactly what is wanted. A method to force incorporeal to act the same as corporeal, providing the same protections as a wall would against a human.

[Firest Kathon]

Forbiddance (3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm)/PF (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/forbiddance/)) is a level 6 spells which blocks ethereal creatures from entering the area warded by it. Might be just what you are looking for.

[Wasum]

I would base it on the ghost touch property.

[MesiDoomstalker]

This is exactly what is wanted. A method to force incorporeal to act the same as corporeal, providing the same protections as a wall would against a human.

But Incorporeal doesn't care about doors either. You can funnel them to doorways, but they can ignore them just as easily as walls. Your stated goal is to provide the same protection a wall would to a corporeal, then the door needs to be a barrier because a wall with a doorless doorframe doesn't provide any deterrent to unwanted entrance. This barrier against Incorpereal needs to accomodate not only walls but also doors being able to be opened by corporeal beings but not incorporeal beings.

[Psyren]

If it's actually Force, i.e. it stops material as well as incorporeal/ethereal invaders, that would be at least 9th-level. Consider that even a Widened Windowless Forcecage would only be a 20ft. cube, and that would technically be 10th-level.

If however you mean for this to only keep out intangible invaders, while you need to rely on more traditional defenses for the solid ones, this becomes much more reasonable (and such a spell probably already exists.)

[Calthropstu]

If it's actually Force, i.e. it stops material as well as incorporeal/ethereal invaders, that would be at least 9th-level. Consider that even a Widened Windowless Forcecage would only be a 20ft. cube, and that would technically be 10th-level.

If however you mean for this to only keep out intangible invaders, while you need to rely on more traditional defenses for the solid ones, this becomes much more reasonable (and such a spell probably already exists.)

Forcecage, as mentioned earlier, is an instant and hostile application. Making the casting time something that could have almost no combat application (ie, an hour) would probably dramatically lower the spell level I would think.
However, I have asked the opinions here specifically because I, myself, see such arguments and have similar misgivings.

For the other matter, if such a spell exists I would definitely like to see it.

The issue at hand is that I want there to be an uncarnate thief in my campaign. After several highly successful thefts, a countermeasure was worked into vaults in the country developed by an archmage. The same archmage then worked a more powerful version to protect his entire abode from unwelcome visits and retribution.
The best thing I could think of was basing it off wall of force, because that blocks everything.

[Deadline]

However, it WOULD greatly strengthen said infrastructure. The tactical implications would be nice, making the "blow a hole in the wall" strategy useless, but most attacks use doors and windows anyway.

Unless the attacker has access to Dispel Magic, Disintegrate, Disjunction, or a Rod of Disruption.

As Firest Kathon mentioned, Forbiddance works great for keeping Incorporeals at bay.

Also, there's a material in one of the sourcebooks that blocks ethereal travelers. Kind of like an anti-ghost coating. Dang, now I can't remember which book it's in. Complete Adventurer? Stronghold Builder's Guidebook? Ghostwalk? Is there anyone out there that knows what I'm talking about and is able to give a book and page reference?

[Psyren]

Forcecage, as mentioned earlier, is an instant and hostile application. Making the casting time something that could have almost no combat application (ie, an hour) would probably dramatically lower the spell level I would think.
However, I have asked the opinions here specifically because I, myself, see such arguments and have similar misgivings.

The issue at hand is that I want there to be an uncarnate thief in my campaign. After several highly successful thefts, a countermeasure was worked into vaults in the country developed by an archmage. The same archmage then worked a more powerful version to protect his entire abode from unwelcome visits and retribution.
The best thing I could think of was basing it off wall of force, because that blocks everything.

You haven't actually answered the question yet though. Is the intent of this spell just to block "intangible" thieves, or to block everybody? That would vastly affect the level of this spell as blocking everyone immediately makes it "Forcecage+", even if you lengthen the casting time. Since the goal is to keep things out of an area rather than to imprison them within it, presumably the caster would have access to said area ahead of time and the slower casting would matter less as a balance point.


For the other matter, if such a spell exists I would definitely like to see it.

While not a complete zone of denial, PF has the Wall of Ectoplasm spell (which you can form into a spherical or hemispherical configuration) that can keep intangible creatures out while letting material ones walk through.

[Bronk]

The issue at hand is that I want there to be an uncarnate thief in my campaign. After several highly successful thefts, a countermeasure was worked into vaults in the country developed by an archmage. The same archmage then worked a more powerful version to protect his entire abode from unwelcome visits and retribution.
The best thing I could think of was basing it off wall of force, because that blocks everything.

The archmage could be using 'hallow' and 'dimensional lock', but he could just be flitting around, casting wall of stone to increase the thickness of the vault's walls and doors, because:

"An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own."