Help with Warlock 2/Abjurer feat?

[UrielAwakened]

I'm about to start the Storm King pre-made model and I'm building an Abjurerer Wizard built around tanking with Arcane Ward, Armor of Agathys, and using Mage Armor at-will thanks to the invocation which gives you it to refresh Arcane Ward in-between combats. I took the Hexblade patron, giving me medium armor and shield proficiency as well, bringing my AC to 17. I'll be maxing Cha, then Con, leaving my Int at 13 to multiclass and focusing on utility Wizard spells only, using my cantrips as my primary source of damage.

However, I'm variant Human, and I can't decide which of these two feats to take at first level, and they each have different pros and cons.

The first option is Crossbow Expertise. This allows me to use Eldritch Blast while in melee without disadvantage (and other ranged spells, if necessary). I plan on being primarily in melee come level 4, so this would allow me to maintain damage while tanking. 2d10+8+armor of agayths damage is a lot at level 6.

The second option is War Caster. This would allow me to wield a sword (which I would use Cha as the primary stat to attack with thanks to my Patron) and would also give me advantage on Concentration checks. This seems useful as well, however, my damage would absolutely take a hit as I'd have to rely on Booming Blade instead for the bulk of my damage dealing.

What do people think? Which of these two options is better? Or is there a third, better option I'm not seeing?

[Dudewithknives]

I'm about to start the Storm King pre-made model and I'm building an Abjurerer Wizard built around tanking with Arcane Ward, Armor of Agathys, and using Mage Armor at-will thanks to the invocation which gives you it to refresh Arcane Ward in-between combats. I took the Hexblade patron, giving me medium armor and shield proficiency as well, bringing my AC to 17. I'll be maxing Cha, then Con, leaving my Int at 13 to multiclass and focusing on utility Wizard spells only, using my cantrips as my primary source of damage.

However, I'm variant Human, and I can't decide which of these two feats to take at first level, and they each have different pros and cons.

The first option is Crossbow Expertise. This allows me to use Eldritch Blast while in melee without disadvantage (and other ranged spells, if necessary). I plan on being primarily in melee come level 4, so this would allow me to maintain damage while tanking. 2d10+8+armor of agayths damage is a lot at level 6.

The second option is War Caster. This would allow me to wield a sword (which I would use Cha as the primary stat to attack with thanks to my Patron) and would also give me advantage on Concentration checks. This seems useful as well, however, my damage would absolutely take a hit as I'd have to rely on Booming Blade instead for the bulk of my damage dealing.

What do people think? Which of these two options is better? Or is there a third, better option I'm not seeing?

Neither.

Just take shocking grasp as a spell or either Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade, there is no reason for any caster to take CBE now that BB and GFB exist.

Warcaster is ok, out of the two I would pick it.

Honestly though for that build I would not play a human anyway.

I would go Half-Elf. +2 Cha, +1 Con, +1 Int. dump strength, keep dex at 14, or maybe even 12.

[Maxilian]

Why would you want Crossbow expert to hit with your cantrip in melee when you can just attack with your weapon?, IMHO War Caster is better, for everything, for control and damage, it will make you OA more painful (with BB), will let your concentration spells (not many) last longer (you don't have many spell slots, so its useful).

Note: I agree with the poster above, than none are needed, but CBE is, basically, useless.

[UrielAwakened]

I'm just worried about the damage output lacking in that case. Eldritch blast is a lot of dpr.

[Maxilian]

I'm just worried about the damage output lacking in that case. Eldritch blast is a lot of dpr.

Then why go Hexblade if you plan on using EB as your main damage source (Even in melee)?

[Dudewithknives]

Then why go Hexblade if you plan on using EB as your main damage source (Even in melee)?

Because even with Hexblade, and their other things EB is still better unless you dump a ton of choices into being an average melee user.
Curse works on EB too so crit on 19-20 damage and more hits to add damage too anyway.
People take Hexblade for a backup melee option and to get the armor and shield and curse abilities.

[Maxilian]

Because even with Hexblade, and their other things EB is still better unless you dump a ton of choices into being an average melee user.
Curse works on EB too so crit on 19-20 damage and more hits to add damage too anyway.
People take Hexblade for a backup melee option and to get the armor and shield and curse abilities.

Fair enough, though that does not give you many reasons to be in melee (just options for when you are in melee).

[Biggstick]

I'm about to start the Storm King pre-made model and I'm building an Abjurerer Wizard built around tanking with Arcane Ward, Armor of Agathys, and using Mage Armor at-will thanks to the invocation which gives you it to refresh Arcane Ward in-between combats. I took the Hexblade patron, giving me medium armor and shield proficiency as well, bringing my AC to 17. I'll be maxing Cha, then Con, leaving my Int at 13 to multiclass and focusing on utility Wizard spells only, using my cantrips as my primary source of damage.

However, I'm variant Human, and I can't decide which of these two feats to take at first level, and they each have different pros and cons.

The first option is Crossbow Expertise. This allows me to use Eldritch Blast while in melee without disadvantage (and other ranged spells, if necessary). I plan on being primarily in melee come level 4, so this would allow me to maintain damage while tanking. 2d10+8+armor of agayths damage is a lot at level 6.

The second option is War Caster. This would allow me to wield a sword (which I would use Cha as the primary stat to attack with thanks to my Patron) and would also give me advantage on Concentration checks. This seems useful as well, however, my damage would absolutely take a hit as I'd have to rely on Booming Blade instead for the bulk of my damage dealing.

What do people think? Which of these two options is better? Or is there a third, better option I'm not seeing?

I'm running Storm King's Thunder, and have played through about half of it as a Player. I really like Abjuration Wizards and Arcane Ward tanking, but that isn't really going to work in STK. The only things capable of "tanking" or taking a hit from a Giant is a Rogue or a Barbarian. They simply have too high of an attack bonus (my 21 AC "tank" Player gets hit often enough) and roll too many damage dice when they hit for a class without damage resistance to "tank" them.

This is just my opinion/experience in STK though. Maybe you'll have a different experience on your run through STK.

Regarding your two choices, Warcaster is going to be a stronger choice. Sure, it has you depending on BB or GFB, but it opens up your reactions to be used on BB/GFB or whatever other spell you'd like to utilize as an opportunity attack.

Personally, as a third choice, I'd recommend building the character with the mindset that you're more akin to an armored Wizard then a tank. And an armored Wizard isn't standing up in the melee attempting to tank. They stay in the back, using their spells from range and only fighting in melee if there are no other viable options available.

[UrielAwakened]

Then why go Hexblade if you plan on using EB as your main damage source (Even in melee)?

Medium armor and shields.

[UrielAwakened]

My other option was a Rogue with a level or two in barbarian for damage resistance. Would that be a better choice?

[Dudewithknives]

The issues you are going to encounter is that your ward is good but with a mostly D6HD and maybe a con of 14 or so, you are not tanking hits from giants.

Barbarian will not help you much considering that you can't cast a spell while raging so you are using 2 completely different mechanics that barely interact with each other.

Wizards in general are great, and abjurers are amazing, but do not think of it as a tank option, think of it as an I don't have to worry as much as most wizards option.

Considering you are going to be in armor with a shield and using eldritch blasts, you are going to be the artillery.

I assume you are going Warlock 2 maybe 3 and the rest wizard?

[UrielAwakened]

The issues you are going to encounter is that your ward is good but with a mostly D6HD and maybe a con of 14 or so, you are not tanking hits from giants.

Barbarian will not help you much considering that you can't cast a spell while raging so you are using 2 completely different mechanics that barely interact with each other.

Wizards in general are great, and abjurers are amazing, but do not think of it as a tank option, think of it as an I don't have to worry as much as most wizards option.

Considering you are going to be in armor with a shield and using eldritch blasts, you are going to be the artillery.

I assume you are going Warlock 2 maybe 3 and the rest wizard?

The original plan was Warlock 2 and using high-level Armor of Agathys to deal 20-25 damage a hit to anything that hits me, using Arcane Ward to tank damage so Armor of Agathys stays up perpetually.

If giants hit way too hard to manage that, then my other plan was a Barbarian 1/Rogue X that uses rage to half the damage he takes from physical attacks, and has evasion to reduce damage from spells. Just building an untouchable melee frontliner that way.

[Dudewithknives]

The original plan was Warlock 2 and using high-level Armor of Agathys to deal 20-25 damage a hit to anything that hits me, using Arcane Ward to tank damage so Armor of Agathys stays up perpetually.

If giants hit way too hard to manage that, then my other plan was a Barbarian 1/Rogue X that uses rage to half the damage he takes from physical attacks, and has evasion to reduce damage from spells. Just building an untouchable melee frontliner that way.

What is the rest of the party makeup?

I have an idea that you might like depending on if the group is well balanced.

[UrielAwakened]

What is the rest of the party makeup?

I have an idea that you might like depending on if the group is well balanced.

So far all we know for sure is a Valor Bard. Likely we will have a secondary melee frontliner as well. Plus four more party members for a total of six of us.

[Biggstick]

The original plan was Warlock 2 and using high-level Armor of Agathys to deal 20-25 damage a hit to anything that hits me, using Arcane Ward to tank damage so Armor of Agathys stays up perpetually.

If giants hit way too hard to manage that, then my other plan was a Barbarian 1/Rogue X that uses rage to half the damage he takes from physical attacks, and has evasion to reduce damage from spells. Just building an untouchable melee frontliner that way.

I definitely think a Barbarian/Rogue is a solid tank, even more so for STK. I would make sure you're wearing medium armor and using a shield, so ensure the highest AC, unless you plan on using Dexterity as your primary stat.

What's great about the mixing of Barbarian and Rogue is that you can just as easily use Strength for all the finesse weapons.

Another thing I'd like to ask, is why only the one level of Barbarian? I'd look to grab three at least, for the three rages per long rest and the bear totem resistance. But, if gaining Evasion more quickly is what's important to you, go for it. Either way you go on the progression, it will be a class that's more useful in the physical tanking of Giants then your Abjuration Wizard/Warlock.

Realize, that you will still be touchable as a Barbarian. The only way you're reaching "untouchable" in STK is acquiring Adamantium (sp?) armor and stacking your AC to the mid 20's and having the Shield spell available for use to bump it even higher. And that's only for physical attacks; you'll need to be able to deal with saving throw based spells as well.

[UrielAwakened]

I definitely think a Barbarian/Rogue is a solid tank, even more so for STK. I would make sure you're wearing medium armor and using a shield, so ensure the highest AC, unless you plan on using Dexterity as your primary stat.

What's great about the mixing of Barbarian and Rogue is that you can just as easily use Strength for all the finesse weapons.

Another thing I'd like to ask, is why only the one level of Barbarian? I'd look to grab three at least, for the three rages per long rest and the bear totem resistance. But, if gaining Evasion more quickly is what's important to you, go for it. Either way you go on the progression, it will be a class that's more useful in the physical tanking of Giants then your Abjuration Wizard/Warlock.

Realize, that you will still be touchable as a Barbarian. The only way you're reaching "untouchable" in STK is acquiring Adamantium (sp?) armor and stacking your AC to the mid 20's and having the Shield spell available for use to bump it even higher. And that's only for physical attacks; you'll need to be able to deal with saving throw based spells as well.

One advantage of the Warlock was the two Shield spells per short rest thanks to my patron (And more once I start taking Wizard levels). I forgot that detail but I was definitely looking forward to that.

The Barbarian/Rogue was my original concept before this though and if you think that will be better overall, I'll likely just revert to that and save this Warlock/Abjurerer for a later campaign.

[Dudewithknives]

So far all we know for sure is a Valor Bard. Likely we will have a secondary melee frontliner as well. Plus four more party members for a total of six of us.

With that many people, they should have everything covered easily.

Go Half Orc Ancestral Guardian Barbarian.
Mountain Dwarf also works.
Between their wards later, shielding others, and the half orc "nope, kill me again" ability you would be a beast.

At level 14 with one I saw an Ancestral Guardian Barbarian kill a rogue archer from 100 feet away that he could never even see.

The Ancestral Shield ability says you have to see the person you are protecting, not the person attacking.
Also you can see yourself and you count as an ally, so on top of taking half damage from weapons, which is what you will encounter most, you can take between 2D8 - 4D8 off as a reaction and later reflect it back.

Carry some javelins and use a shield and a versatile weapon and laugh at people.

[Joe the Rat]

To echo: Against giants and the like, AC is not going to be a big factor. You can get a hp buffer between Arcane Ward and AoA, but it's going to be a modest one unless you focus wizard (2*level + Int Mod for the ward). So your perpetual ward would only by 5 points. It shaves damage, but taking more than one or two hits in a round will eat your frost. 'Lock2 is sufficient for AoA, agblast, and armor of shadows - but boost your charisma. Your wizard slots can cast your AoA up for you, and wiz levels add more to your ward.

Downside: Your actual hit points are on the lighter side.

As has been noted, Hexblade means weapons work on charisma as well. Melee and a boomer or greenflame will even out some with blasting... and warcaster would be the way to go. I understand the lure of CBX for point blank casting: One of my long term ideas is a Warlock passing himself off as a monk, using CBX to do repelling blast punches (point blank EB - and from 5 on it flurries!). But for a Hexblade, it is redundant.

This is a fun idea, but not super-reliable. And you will be most of the way through before hitting lvl 9 total (minimum for 4th level slots), for that big punch version.

[UrielAwakened]

To echo: Against giants and the like, AC is not going to be a big factor. You can get a hp buffer between Arcane Ward and AoA, but it's going to be a modest one unless you focus wizard (2*level + Int Mod for the ward). So your perpetual ward would only by 5 points. It shaves damage, but taking more than one or two hits in a round will eat your frost. 'Lock2 is sufficient for AoA, agblast, and armor of shadows - but boost your charisma. Your wizard slots can cast your AoA up for you, and wiz levels add more to your ward.

Downside: Your actual hit points are on the lighter side.

As has been noted, Hexblade means weapons work on charisma as well. Melee and a boomer or greenflame will even out some with blasting... and warcaster would be the way to go. I understand the lure of CBX for point blank casting: One of my long term ideas is a Warlock passing himself off as a monk, using CBX to do repelling blast punches (point blank EB - and from 5 on it flurries!). But for a Hexblade, it is redundant.

This is a fun idea, but not super-reliable. And you will be most of the way through before hitting lvl 9 total (minimum for 4th level slots), for that big punch version.

Interesting.

What would you build if you wanted to stick with Warlock, for a frontliner in this campaign?

[Maxilian]

The original plan was Warlock 2 and using high-level Armor of Agathys to deal 20-25 damage a hit to anything that hits me, using Arcane Ward to tank damage so Armor of Agathys stays up perpetually.

If giants hit way too hard to manage that, then my other plan was a Barbarian 1/Rogue X that uses rage to half the damage he takes from physical attacks, and has evasion to reduce damage from spells. Just building an untouchable melee frontliner that way.

Have in mind, that Armor of Agathys do not stack with the Arcane Ward temporal HP (and when the Arcane Ward temporal HP takes the place of AoA temporal HP, then you don't have AoA on so no extra damage)

[Maxilian]

Interesting.

What would you build if you wanted to stick with Warlock, for a frontliner in this campaign?

Warlock / Barb maybe? you get AoA, also get the invocation that let you get a 1d8 (basically a cantrip, ask your DM to let you cast it as a 1min ritual to get the 8 hp -that's basically the same as spamming the spell for 1 minute till you get a 1d8, that its basically 2 more lvls HP wise for your warlock in one spell, or you could go Rogue with Hexblade Warlock, to use CHA as your main hit, and still have the Temp HP -when you get hit, you can half the damage, so your temp HP will last way and you will always have 8 extra hp before every fight)

IMHO i don't think AoA is that.... useful, as you only have 2 spell slots, that you may want to use for something better.

[Citan]

Hi OP!

If you really want to tank with a "spike" effect, without considering UA (because I remember there is a great UA Barb archetype for that)...

Start Barbarian, then aim towards Bear Barbarian 5 / Fiend Warlock 7.
Idea here is to stack high-level Armor of Agathys (and possibly) Fire Shield before raging into melee.

If you'd rather be a "magical tank", I'd say pick just one level of Warlock if you really want Armor of Agathys (although really I'd ditch it altogether), and instead pick Life Cleric 3 for your multiclass. 3 great benefits
1. Heavy armor: immediate benefit in terms of AC.
2. Spiritual Weapon shenanigans: you can pair Sanctuary with it on later turns, or just cast Blade Ward, or Dodge.
3. Buffs: Shield of Faith, Protection from Evil and Good, Aid will all help you.

Obviously Abjurer's Ward is great... At higher levels. Until then you would suffer hard. As others said, even if you can recharge your Ward fully between encounters thanks to free Mage Armor, it won't help if you are running yourself towards the big enemies.
Going Cleric first requires some WIS, but also mean you can safely keep a low DEX and instead bump CON as high as possible, then INT. Those Cleric spells may also be more efficient "per slot" than using just Wizard's spells, at least until you get 4th level ones.

[Degwerks]

Have in mind, that Armor of Agathys do not stack with the Arcane Ward temporal HP (and when the Arcane Ward temporal HP takes the place of AoA temporal HP, then you don't have AoA on so no extra damage)

Yes they do work together. Armor of Agathys gives Temporary Hit Points and the Arcane Ward has its own Hit Points that aren't listed in its description as being temporary. They can be refreshed throughout the day by casting abjuration spells though, so maybe that's where your confusion is possibly coming from.

[UrielAwakened]

Have in mind, that Armor of Agathys do not stack with the Arcane Ward temporal HP (and when the Arcane Ward temporal HP takes the place of AoA temporal HP, then you don't have AoA on so no extra damage)

They do stack. Well not stack so much as they are two discrete pools. You have separate pools and can choose to take damage in any order (so allow Arcane Ward to be damaged before Armor of Agathys).

[Quoxis]

Just saying, if you throw in a level of barbarian you get a weird mix and the risk of MADness, but you're taking as much punishment as nobody else:
First round you cast AoA, triggering your ward (if that wasn't on yet from constantly re-casting mage armor) and enter your rage. Your movement? You run straight up to the big bad giant.
If it attacks you, you take half damage from raging* while dealing as much damage as your AoA allows**. You won't make it to the sweet high levels of wizard anyways, and you get a feat at the beginning, so the multiclassing doesn't hit you as hard. For the feat, there are multiple interesting possibilities.
War caster is nice, but with rage you'll want to stick to weapons. As you're more of an HP-tank (or a wasp: "don't you dare attacking me, it'll hurt you more!") you could also use a two-handed weapon and roll with great weapon master, or you could take that one feat that gives you bonus hp per level.

[Provo]

My other option was a Rogue with a level or two in barbarian for damage resistance. Would that be a better choice?

Well this is a very different character concept than your wizard. But if you strictly want to tank well, it's your best bet.

My Barb/Rogue finished SKT at lvl 12. Party members gave our group temp hitpoints. I would often go three or so sessions at a time without my total HP even dropping down to my max HP.

Honestly it felt a bit too strong. Your early levels are still dangerous though.

[Mikal]

Medium armor and shields.

Go Hexblade Tome pact and really screw people up.