Adding Spells to Spell List

[Wartex1]

I'm trying to come up with a not-too-difficult way to qualify for Walker in the Waste as an Urban Druid, but there's one requirement that's preventing me from using that combination.

I need to be able to cast at least three spells from the Thirst or Sand domains, while I need to be able to cast them, they don't need to be cast as domain spells, but just need to be listed in them. However, none of them, to my knowledge, show up on the Urban Druid spell list (it's tiny and was never expanded upon in splats). While I could probably convince a DM to give me access anyways, I need a rules legal way to do it, preferably without losing any more caster levels (WitW already loses two).

[RoboEmperor]

arcane disciple feat from complete divine.

[Wartex1]

arcane disciple feat from complete divine.

Doesn't work. Urban Druids are divine casters, and that feat only works with arcane casters.

[Venger]

I'm trying to come up with a not-too-difficult way to qualify for Walker in the Waste as an Urban Druid, but there's one requirement that's preventing me from using that combination.

I need to be able to cast at least three spells from the Thirst or Sand domains, while I need to be able to cast them, they don't need to be cast as domain spells, but just need to be listed in them. However, none of them, to my knowledge, show up on the Urban Druid spell list (it's tiny and was never expanded upon in splats). While I could probably convince a DM to give me access anyways, I need a rules legal way to do it, preferably without losing any more caster levels (WitW already loses two).

As I said in the interesting prcs thread, the only way for you to do this without dipping cloistered cleric or similar is to spend a feat or two on arcane disciple and then one on southern magician. perfectly raw legal.

[RoboEmperor]

Doesn't work. Urban Druids are divine casters, and that feat only works with arcane casters.

Sorry bout that, only looked at prerequisite.

1 level dip in Archivist.

Learn these spells through scrolls
Haboob (Druid 1, Ranger 1, Sand 3)
Wastrider (Druid 1, Ranger 1, Sand 1)
Parching Touch (Druid 6, Thirst 1)

[ShurikVch]

Dip in Contemplative?

[RoboEmperor]

Dip in Contemplative?

I can't see a reason why a druid can't take a dip in Contemplative, so this works best. You must however worship a deity with the sand or thirst domain. Deityless contemplatives are restricted to the alignment domains exclusively.

[Wartex1]

Doesn't work, since the Urban Druid doesn't have domain slots.

Though I did find that the Drift Magic feat gives me one of the spells.

EDIT: Also can't access Contemplative until 10th level (which requires multiclassing) due to the skill requirements.

[Venger]

guys, use southern magician to use urban druid for arcane disciple. you don't need to dip other base classes and lose cl or wait until level 11 to enter contemplative and miss out on walker in the waste's capstone, which is the main purpose for taking the class

[RoboEmperor]

Doesn't work, since the Urban Druid doesn't have domain slots.

Though I did find that the Drift Magic feat gives me one of the spells.


Bonus Domain: Upon adopting the contemplative class, and again at 6th level, a character gains access to a bonus domain of her choice. The character can choose any domain made available by her deity or alignment. The character gains the granted power associated with the domain she chooses, and can select the spells in that domain as her daily domain spells.

Hah you're right. I've been proven wrong twice in this thread. I'm a stop replying. 1 level archivist dip fulfills all of the OP's request for sure, and that's as far as I am able to help.

@Venger
Pretty sure the 3.5 FAQ sows doubt in your method, so never hurts to brainstorm multiple methods. And IIRC Southern magician requires some hefty restrictions in the form of setting specific race limitations, and I believe regional feats are also involved?

[Wartex1]

guys, use southern magician to use urban druid for arcane disciple. you don't need to dip other base classes and lose cl or wait until level 11 to enter contemplative and miss out on walker in the waste's capstone, which is the main purpose for taking the class

That doesn't work, since Arcane Disciple strictly says "Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells," and the Urban Druid, while able to cast arcane spells with Southern Magician, doesn't have a class list of arcane spells.

[Venger]

Hah you're right. I've been proven wrong twice in this thread. I'm a stop replying. 1 level archivist dip fulfills all of the OP's request for sure, and that's as far as I am able to help.

@Venger
Pretty sure the 3.5 FAQ sows doubt in your method, so never hurts to brainstorm multiple methods. And IIRC Southern magician requires some hefty restrictions in the form of setting specific race limitations, and I believe regional feats are also involved?
faq ≠raw

nah, you just need to be a mulan human. mechanically they aren't a different race than vanilla human. no extra feats are required.


That doesn't work, since Arcane Disciple strictly says "Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells," and the Urban Druid, while able to cast arcane spells with Southern Magician, doesn't have a class list of arcane spells.

southern magician allows you to treat urban druid as an arcane casting class. you would add it there. if you don't like it, don't use it, but that's the only way to avoid a dip outside urban druid.

[Wartex1]

faq ≠raw

nah, you just need to be a mulan human. mechanically they aren't a different race than vanilla human. no extra feats are required.



southern magician allows you to treat urban druid as an arcane casting class. you would add it there. if you don't like it, don't use it, but that's the only way to avoid a dip outside urban druid.

The feat doesn't turn it into an Arcane casting class. It just allows me to cast divine spells as arcane spells. I still have no arcane class spell list.

[RoboEmperor]

faq ≠raw

Why I said sow doubt. You never know, the DM might take FAQ very seriously.




southern magician allows you to treat urban druid as an arcane casting class. you would add it there. if you don't like it, don't use it, but that's the only way to avoid a dip outside urban druid.

I think you need to provide some RAW and some reasoning for this part. Afaik, Urban Druid is a Divine Spellcasting class, and southern magician would just let you qualify for PrCs that require to you cast arcane spells, not have Arcane Spellcasting class levels. So you can qualify for PrCs that require the ability to cast 4th level arcane spells, but if their spellcasting is +1 to arcane spellcasting class, it won't be able to advance urban druid's spellcasting.

edit: So to further clarify, you are an Urban Druid casting divine spells as arcane spells through a feat. Urban Druid is still a divine spellcasting class. You can cast arcane spells, but doesn't change Urban Druid's to arcane spellcasting class.

[Venger]

I think you need to provide some RAW and some reasoning for this part. Afaik, Urban Druid is a Divine Spellcasting class, and southern magician would just let you qualify for PrCs that require to you cast arcane spells, not have Arcane Spellcasting class levels. So you can qualify for PrCs that require the ability to cast 4th level arcane spells, but if their spellcasting is +1 to arcane spellcasting class, it won't be able to advance urban druid's spellcasting.

edit: So to further clarify, you are an Urban Druid casting divine spells as arcane spells through a feat. Urban Druid is still a divine spellcasting class. You can cast arcane spells, but doesn't change Urban Druid's to arcane spellcasting class.

Sure. But he doesn't need to enter an arcane casting prestige class so I'm not sure how that's relevant. You don't need to be from an arcane spell casting class to take arcane disciple just be able to cast arcane spells which southern magician allows you to do

[RoboEmperor]

Sure. But he doesn't need to enter an arcane casting prestige class so I'm not sure how that's relevant. You don't need to be from an arcane spell casting class to take arcane disciple just be able to cast arcane spells which southern magician allows you to do

I just gave the arcane prestige class as an example.


Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells. If you have arcane spellcasting ability from more than one class, you must pick which arcane spellcasting ability this feat applies to. Once chosen, this decision cannot be changed for that feat. You may learn these spells as normal for your class; however, you use Wisdom (rather than the normal ability for your spellcasting) when determining the save DC for the spell. In addition, you must have a Wisdom score equal to 10 + the spell's level in order to prepare or cast a spell gained from this feat. Each day, you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domains spells of each level.

Urban Druid is a divine class, all their spells are divine spells, and turning them into arcane spells happens through a feat. Southern Magician does not give urban druid arcane spells, or a class list of arcane spells.

[ATHATH]

Wasn't there a thread that listed all of the ways to add spells to a class's spell list?

Would Chameleon dip work?

[RoboEmperor]

Would Chameleon dip work?

He's trying to do this without a dip if possible. Archivist is 1 level dip and I think the best option, so we're discussing 0 dip now, or dips that don't result in a loss of spellcasting level.

[ShurikVch]

EDIT: Also can't access Contemplative until 10th level (which requires multiclassing) due to the skill requirements.Note: by taking Primary Contact feat, you may enter the Contemplative one level earlier

For getting Knowledge (religion) as class skill - see the wonderful Alternative ways to get new Class skills (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?491181-Alternative-ways-to-get-new-Class-skills) thread

Divine Agent PrC accessible much earlier than 10th level, but lose CL at entry (and any odd level)

Divine Disciple also accessible earlier, and full caster, but gets new domain only at 4th level (which should be about 11th character level)

Planar Touchstone (The Catalogues of Enlightenment): Higher-Order Ability will give you access for domain spell 1/day, but I really doubt it will allow you to qualify for PrC

[Wartex1]

Wasn't there a thread that listed all of the ways to add spells to a class's spell list?

Would Chameleon dip work?

A 1-level chameleon dip would work as long as the character has an INT/WIS score of at least 14 (since a 1st level Chameleon can cast 2nd level spells, but just lacks the slots). Can I draw from multiple spell lists, or just one each time I adopt an aptitude? Either way works as long as I have Drift Magic, since no single spell list (or any combination of just divine or just arcane spell list) can grab me all three at the same time, unless I don't actually have to be able to cast all three at a given time.

[Wartex1]

Note: by taking Primary Contact feat, you may enter the Contemplative one level earlier

For getting Knowledge (religion) as class skill - see the wonderful Alternative ways to get new Class skills (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?491181-Alternative-ways-to-get-new-Class-skills) thread

Divine Agent PrC accessible much earlier than 10th level, but lose CL at entry (and any odd level)

Divine Disciple also accessible earlier, and full caster, but gets new domain only at 4th level (which should be about 11th character level)

Planar Touchstone (The Catalogues of Enlightenment): Higher-Order Ability will give you access for domain spell 1/day, but I really doubt it will allow you to qualify for PrC

Planar Touchstone with Chameleon allows me to access WitW without Drift Magic's poor wording (it says you characters can learn Flaywind Burst as a 4th level spell instead of a 5th level one, but doesn't actually list whether the caster needs to have it on their list to begin with), so it'd be RAI, which is much better than RAW.

Plus it would make sense since it's something the character has to actually seek out.

[Psyren]

Doesn't work, since the Urban Druid doesn't have domain slots.

That doesn't matter, you don't need domain slots to cast domain spells. Complete Divine pg. 20:



EXTRA DOMAINS
...
If a noncleric enters a prestige class that allows access to a domain, the character still gains access to the domain. She can use the granted power bestowed by the domain normally. If she memorizes spells like a druid, paladin, or ranger, then she can simply choose to memorize one of that domain's spells instead of one of her usual spells, but never more than one domain spell of each level. If she is a spellcaster who keeps a spellbook as a wizard does, then she must find or purchase a scroll of that spell and pay the usual price to scribe the spell into her spellbook. In cases where the spell is only divine the wizard may scribe a divine scroll into his book. The wizard then may memorize one domain spell of each level each day. If the noncleric is a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or favored soul, then she may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell. A sorcerer does not get to exceed his normal limit of spells known. Once the domain spell is known, the sorcerer may cast it freely. Unless the prestige class specifies otherwise, such spells are considered arcane spells when cast by arcane spellcasters.

If only classes with domain slots could benefit from domains, that would limit it basically to clerics and some niche cases like ACFs, so they created the above rule.

[Wartex1]

He's trying to do this without a dip if possible. Archivist is 1 level dip and I think the best option, so we're discussing 0 dip now, or dips that don't result in a loss of spellcasting level.

It's best to do it without dipping, but single level dips are fine if necessary. Chameleon works fine, actually, since it nets me more flexibility while still qualifying. Plus, it's actually stronger than a single level Archivist dip since I can get extra spells up to 2nd-level instead of just first, plus I can swap out the benefit once I do get WitW.

Also, quick question, to spell-like abilities count as spells for prerequisites? I found another Planar Touchstone (in the Sandstorm book) that gives me Parching Touch (one of the thirst domain spells) as an SLA and also gives me Improved Heat Endurance, which while WitW grants me anyways, if I already have it, then I get another feat of my choice (that I qualify of course, even though it doesn't say so RAW).

EDIT: Nevermind, the SLAs specifically won't work because the spells need to be cast as Divine Spells.

[Wartex1]

That doesn't matter, you don't need domain slots to cast domain spells. Complete Divine pg. 20:



If only classes with domain slots could benefit from domains, that would limit it basically to clerics and some niche cases like ACFs, so they created the above rule.

Okay, so I can go Contemplative. Thank you. Though I do find Chameleon more interesting since it forces a neat little story thing while a Contemplative makes the character much more beholden to a god or concept.

[Venger]

It's best to do it without dipping, but single level dips are fine if necessary. Chameleon works fine, actually, since it nets me more flexibility while still qualifying. Plus, it's actually stronger than a single level Archivist dip since I can get extra spells up to 2nd-level instead of just first, plus I can swap out the benefit once I do get WitW.

Also, quick question, to spell-like abilities count as spells for prerequisites? I found another Planar Touchstone (in the Sandstorm book) that gives me Parching Touch (one of the thirst domain spells) as an SLA and also gives me Improved Heat Endurance, which while WitW grants me anyways, if I already have it, then I get another feat of my choice (that I qualify of course, even though it doesn't say so RAW).

Chameleon is a more fun class, so go for that. If you're dipping 1 level, consider dipping 2 to get its iconic free-floating feat.

If you pick arcane focus, you have access to all arcane spells (though you have to buy them as wizard) and if you do divine you have access to all divine spells for free. you don't get dual foci til level 7 which it doesn't sound like you're interested in.

no, slas are not spells. some classes, such as mindbender, will let you do either, but if it calls for one, you can't use the other.

[Wartex1]

Okay, with this information, I have two routes to go.

UrbDruid9/Contemplative1/WalkerInTheWaste10 plus Primary Contact and Favored or UrbDruid9/Chameleon1/WalkerInTheWaste10 plus Planar Touchstone (Catalogues).

I'm fine with either, since both offer benefits that are distinct (Contemplative levels up spellcasting while Chameleon gives me some rather neat options that help with flexibility plus I get to save a feat, though I'd need to be human) and both offer interesting story opportunities. Contemplative would probably require meeting another Dry Lich (which I'd need for the Sere Rite at 20th level anyways) and the Planar Touchstone feat would cause the character to venture out. Thanks guys.

[ExLibrisMortis]

What about Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment)? Pick the Sand or Thirst domain, and you get to cast three spells before you have to recharge. Not easy to get into (requires beating an opposed Knowledge check against a +18 modifier), but only takes one feat. The ability is unclear on whether it's an arcane or divine spell, but it does say "cast [...] as though you had prepared the spell normally", which, for an urban druid, would arguably be equivalent to "cast as a prepared divine spell".

[Wartex1]

Oh crap, I'm dumb. Don't need Chameleon at all.

Don't care for Urban Druid 10 either though, so maybe I'll find another PrC to fill the hole. Anyone have a good flavorful PrC that advances casting that I can dip into?

EDIT: Going with Divine Oracle to fill that gap after 5th level, gaining Knowledge (Religion) through Cosmopolitan.