Wand of Rhino's Rush

[theboss]

How much would it cost?
What's the UMD check needed?
Is it still a swift action to cast it even on a wand?
I know about wand chamber.

ty in advance

[Venger]

How much would it cost?
What's the UMD check needed?
Is it still a swift action to cast it even on a wand?
I know about wand chamber.

ty in advance

750gp
20 if it's not on your list
yes, wands are always the action it is to cast the spell

[theboss]

750gp

Can you show me the math please?



20 if it's not on your list

What do you mean not on my list? skills list? I have many classes...

[Venger]

Can you show me the math please?


What do you mean not on my list? skills list? I have many classes...

1 x 1 x 750 = 750 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)

I mean not on your spell list. If you're a paladin, ranger, have access to the wrath domain, or are a silver pyromancer, you can use a wand of this without making a skill check. if you cannot normally cast a spell in a wand, make a DC 20 umd check

[theboss]

1 x 1 x 750 = 750 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)

So that's 1 charge right? (1 usage)



I mean not on your spell list. If you're a paladin, ranger, have access to the wrath domain, or are a silver pyromancer, you can use a wand of this without making a skill check. if you cannot normally cast a spell in a wand, make a DC 20 umd check

No, I'm not any of the classes above.
thank you

[Venger]

So that's 1 charge right? (1 usage)



No, I'm not any of the classes above.
thank you

no, it's a wand. fully charged wands have 50 charges. if you want a partially charged wand, just use math and make one with the requisite number of charges.

ok. do you have UMD? if you can reliably hit a 20, you can use this spell anyway.

[theboss]

no, it's a wand. fully charged wands have 50 charges. if you want a partially charged wand, just use math and make one with the requisite number of charges.

OH, Great!



ok. do you have UMD? if you can reliably hit a 20, you can use this spell anyway.

Yes, I can reach 18 UMD easly. thank you very much

[Venger]

great. happy to be of assistance.

[Deadline]

Uhh, can you go below the minimum level required to cast the spell? So for wand made by a Paladin or Ranger, the formula becomes:

4 x 1 x 750 = 3,000gp

If you find a cleric with the Wrath domain to make it for you, then it will only run you 750gp.

So it kinda depends on who made the wand, doesn't it?

[Venger]

Uhh, can you go below the minimum level required to cast the spell? So for wand made by a Paladin or Ranger, the formula becomes:

4 x 1 x 750 = 3,000gp

If you find a cleric with the Wrath domain to make it for you, then it will only run you 750gp.

So it kinda depends on who made the wand, doesn't it?

sure. but when you buy wands, you assume it was made at the minimum necessary caster level, which in this case is 1. it only lasts 1 round anyway and is a buff so it's not like you'd want or need a higher-cl version of it

[Thurbane]

The caster level for a 4th level Paladin or Ranger is 2 in any case, not 4.


Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is one-half her paladin level.


Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is one-half his ranger level.

[Deadline]

The caster level for a 4th level Paladin or Ranger is 2 in any case, not 4.

Herp derp, I forgot I houserule that away. Thanks for the correction. :)


sure. but when you buy wands, you assume it was made at the minimum necessary caster level, which in this case is 1. it only lasts 1 round anyway and is a buff so it's not like you'd want or need a higher-cl version of it

Do you make that assumption? That sounds like a DM call. Is there a rule I missed somewhere?

[Venger]

Herp derp, I forgot I houserule that away. Thanks for the correction. :)



Do you make that assumption? That sounds like a DM call. Is there a rule I missed somewhere?

Not an assumption It's a rule under Caster level ere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm) you use minimum unless you need a high cl for buffs or similar

[Malimar]

Not an assumption It's a rule under Caster level ere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm) you use minimum unless you need a high cl for buffs or similar

I think the question about the assumption was when you said "which in this case is 1".

An attempt to clarify the whole deal: minimum caster level to cast the spell in question (and therefore to create a wand of it) is 2 for paladin or ranger -- but 1 for a cleric with the wrath domain. I believe this means 1 is therefore the correct minimum.

[Venger]

I think the question about the assumption was when you said "which in this case is 1".

An attempt to clarify the whole deal: minimum caster level to cast the spell in question (and therefore to create a wand of it) is 2 for paladin or ranger -- but 1 for a cleric with the wrath domain. I believe this means 1 is therefore the correct minimum.

Oh, I see. That makes sense. Yeah, that's an accurate assessment of the situation.

[Deadline]

Thanks Malimar, explained what I was trying to say. One of these days my ability to communicate properly will manifest itself, but today is not that day. :smalltongue:

So the follow up again is, how would a GM determine what the price is for a Wand of Rhino's Rush? Does the note in the crafting rules mean that because at least one class has a minimum caster level of 1 when casting it, then the item should be priced that way regardless of which class crafts it? I'd argue no, mainly because that would open the door for wands of haste to be only 750gp (because a 1st level Trapsmith can cast it as a 1st level spell), and that doesn't match the price for a Wand of Haste. If that holds true, then the cost for crafting varies based on the crafter, and you can indeed have Wands of Rhino's Rush (made by a Cleric with the Wrath Domain) that cost 750gp, and Wands of Rhino's Rush (made by Rangers or Paladins) that cost 1,500gp. At that point the question would fall back to the DM to determine price based on who crafted the wand, would it not?

[Venger]

Thanks Malimar, explained what I was trying to say. One of these days my ability to communicate properly will manifest itself, but today is not that day. :smalltongue:

So the follow up again is, how would a GM determine what the price is for a Wand of Rhino's Rush? Does the note in the crafting rules mean that because at least one class has a minimum caster level of 1 when casting it, then the item should be priced that way regardless of which class crafts it? I'd argue no, mainly because that would open the door for wands of haste to be only 750gp (because a 1st level Trapsmith can cast it as a 1st level spell), and that doesn't match the price for a Wand of Haste. If that holds true, then the cost for crafting varies based on the crafter, and you can indeed have Wands of Rhino's Rush (made by a Cleric with the Wrath Domain) that cost 750gp, and Wands of Rhino's Rush (made by Rangers or Paladins) that cost 1,500gp. At that point the question would fall back to the DM to determine price based on who crafted the wand, would it not?

I mean, if you felt like inflating the costs to screw over your party, I guess you could, but the game assumes you don't want to do that.

Again, all you need to do is check the srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm) and look to see that when there are spells that appear on multiple lists, such as dispel magic, you use the lowest one for the formula. it's available on the wizard and cleric lists as a 3rd, so 3x5x750=11250, which is the listed price.

[torrasque666]

Rhino's Rush is a 1st level Paladin Spell. The SRD (and the DMG) list the cost of a Wand for a 1st level Paladin spell as 1,500 GP or 2x1x750.

[Venger]

Rhino's Rush is a 1st level Paladin Spell. The SRD (and the DMG) list the cost of a Wand for a 1st level Paladin spell as 1,500 GP or 2x1x750.

The srd does no such thing because rhino's rush is not a core spell. As has been thoroughly discussed, a cleric with access to the wrath domain gets it as a 1, so 1x1x750=750

[Deadline]

I mean, if you felt like inflating the costs to screw over your party, I guess you could, but the game assumes you don't want to do that.

Again, all you need to do is check the srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm) and look to see that when there are spells that appear on multiple lists, such as dispel magic, you use the lowest one for the formula. it's available on the wizard and cleric lists as a 3rd, so 3x5x750=11250, which is the listed price.

And the Magic Item Compendium doesn't change the cost of a Wand of Haste to 750gp, despite it being a 1st level spell on the Trapsmith list. So, should Wands of Haste be 750gp?

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think it's as clear and straightforward as you seem to be implying.

I'd certainly be delighted to be wrong. If Paladins and Rangers could make the wand for the same cost as the Cleric, I'd be all for it. But that call also opens the door for cheaper wands of higher level spells by cherry picking them from other class lists.

[Venger]

And the Magic Item Compendium doesn't change the cost of a Wand of Haste to 750gp, despite it being a 1st level spell on the Trapsmith list. So, should Wands of Haste be 750gp?

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think it's as clear and straightforward as you seem to be implying.

I'd certainly be delighted to be wrong. If Paladins and Rangers could make the wand for the same cost as the Cleric, I'd be all for it. But that call also opens the door for cheaper wands of higher level spells by cherry picking them from other class lists.

Because the phb didn't go in and change this section to reflect later splats adding spells to other characters' lists. What does that have to do with anything?

The fact that when something is on multiple lists in the phb, such as the given example of dispel magic, it's calculated at the lowest price consistently, means that's the rule, in addition to that being explained as the rule in both the wands section and the making your own items section as I cited.

If you don't want to sell wands of haste for 750gp in your game, that's fine, but it's not based in the rules.

I'm not talking about crafting the wands. op said he is not able to cast the spell himself, so he was talking about buying the wand. consequently I used the buying formulas with 750 as a constant. when calculating bought wands, you use these figures. when you craft, you're limited to your own spellcasting ability, obviously

This isn't complicated. I guess I have good news. you are wrong, just not in the way you thought.

[EndocrineBandit]

I think that's the difference between making one yourself and buying/finding one.

[Venger]

I think that's the difference between making one yourself and buying/finding one.

Yeah, as I said, when making, you're restricted to your own spellcasting, when buying, you aren't.

[Deadline]

Because the phb didn't go in and change this section to reflect later splats adding spells to other characters' lists. What does that have to do with anything?

I didn't mention the PHB. So, nothing? I did mention the Magic Item Compendium (which does include updated item tables in the back of the book). Also, no errata that I'm aware of in any of the books or from WotC changes the cost either. My point is that you've got an example that indicates one way, and I've got an example that indicates the exact opposite.


The fact that when something is on multiple lists in the phb, such as the given example of dispel magic, it's calculated at the lowest price consistently, means that's the rule, in addition to that being explained as the rule in both the wands section and the making your own items section as I cited.

If you don't want to sell wands of haste for 750gp in your game, that's fine, but it's not based in the rules.

Again, which rules, these?:


Some individual items, notably those that simply store spells and nothing else, don’t get full-blown descriptions. Reference the spell’s description for details, modified by the form of the item (potion, scroll, wand, and so on). Assume that the spell is cast at the minimum level required to cast it.

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

So the cost for an item will depend on the minimum caster level of the crafter, right? None of the rules in that section state that you calculate the market price based on the cheapest possible method for creating the wand. You even seem to agree with me on the rules for making it yourself, so where is the rule I'm missing that states that when purchasing an item, you default to the cheapest possible way of creating it?

And how many Clerics of Kharash are there crafting wands? I mean, I'd expect that the cheaper wand would be much more readily available wherever guardinals gather, and maybe on the celestial planes. And I suppose it's a world building mechanic, but I would wager that Paladins and Rangers will be more common than Clerics of an Ideal that includes Wrath.


I'm not talking about crafting the wands. op said he is not able to cast the spell himself, so he was talking about buying the wand. consequently I used the buying formulas with 750 as a constant. when calculating bought wands, you use these figures. when you craft, you're limited to your own spellcasting ability, obviously

This is the part that I'm left with wondering where you find this rule. It looks like you've inferred it through the examples. If that isn't the case, please correct me with a rules quote. If it is the case, wouldn't that mean that it isn't a rule, but your interpretation of RAI?


This isn't complicated. I guess I have good news. you are wrong, just not in the way you thought.

I can't shake the feeling that I'm still not getting my question across properly. For clarity's sake, I'm not trying to be rude or mean with my questions, I'm just trying to get a clear, complete answer.

[Venger]

I didn't mention the PHB. So, nothing? I did mention the Magic Item Compendium (which does include updated item tables in the back of the book). Also, no errata that I'm aware of in any of the books or from WotC changes the cost either. My point is that you've got an example that indicates one way, and I've got an example that indicates the exact opposite.
The mic pastes the phb tables, so yes

The tables are secondary, so you go to actual rules, which I've quoted many times, and you've quoted as well.



Again, which rules, these?:

So the cost for an item will depend on the minimum caster level of the crafter, right? None of the rules in that section state that you calculate the market price based on the cheapest possible method for creating the wand. You even seem to agree with me on the rules for making it yourself, so where is the rule I'm missing that states that when purchasing an item, you default to the cheapest possible way of creating it?

Yes, those rules, which I've quoted and now you've quoted as well. When you are buying them, you treat them as the lowest spell level and caster level necessary to cast the spell. You're quoting rules that support what I've been saying all along and counteract this devil's advocate thing you're doing.



And how many Clerics of Kharash are there crafting wands? I mean, I'd expect that the cheaper wand would be much more readily available wherever guardinals gather, and maybe on the celestial planes. And I suppose it's a world building mechanic, but I would wager that Paladins and Rangers will be more common than Clerics of an Ideal that includes Wrath.
That is immaterial. Again, if you want to houserule a bunch of economics into the game to make your pcs' lives harder, that's your objective, but you're kind of just making extra work for yourselves.



This is the part that I'm left with wondering where you find this rule. It looks like you've inferred it through the examples. If that isn't the case, please correct me with a rules quote. If it is the case, wouldn't that mean that it isn't a rule, but your interpretation of RAI?



I can't shake the feeling that I'm still not getting my question across properly. For clarity's sake, I'm not trying to be rude or mean with my questions, I'm just trying to get a clear, complete answer.

I have quoted all the relevant rules many times, and so too have you yourself. I'm done quoting rules since it doesn't seem to be making an impression on you. It is not RAI, it is as clear RAW as exists.

You're not asking any questions, you're just saying "what about?" and ignoring my RAW quotations despite me having clearly explained and answered OP's question well before you came in to muddy the waters. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt about you having noble intentions, but there's nothing left for you to learn if your actual goal is to understand how wands work. You have a clear and complete answer, you're just choosing not to listen to it and you've exhausted my patience in re-explaining it to you

[Zombimode]

Again, all you need to do is check the srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm) and look to see that when there are spells that appear on multiple lists, such as dispel magic, you use the lowest one for the formula.

Not universally true. A wand of Suggestion is listed as 11.250 despite being a 2nd Level bard spell.

[Deadline]

Yes, those rules, which I've quoted and now you've quoted as well. When you are buying them, you treat them as the lowest spell level and caster level necessary to cast the spell. You're quoting rules that support what I've been saying all along and counteract this devil's advocate thing you're doing.

The rules you quoted do not say "When you are buying them, you treat them as the lowest spell level and caster level necessary to cast the spell." Very specifically, they do not say the bolded part. That is crux of our disagreement, and what I have been asking about. You have inferred that part from the tables, as near as I can tell.

You don't appear to disagree that a wand can have different crafting prices, depending on who is creating it. And different crafting prices means different market prices, because those two prices are explicitly tied together. Now, when dealing with an item with two different market prices, it certainly seems sensible to state that no matter what, that items sells for the cheaper of the two. The issue there is that you wind up with oddities like 750gp Wands of Haste. So I guess I should also ask, do you think 750gp Wands of Haste are RAW?

EDIT - And of course, the thing we've been bouncing around has finally clicked for me. The price of the Wand isn't inconsistent, because Caster Level does more than affect the cost. So a CL 1 Wand of Rhino's Rush always costs 750gp, and a CL 2 Wand of Rhino's Rush always costs 1,500gp. So when buying said item, be sure to look for the lower caster level if it's available. We still have the issue about a CL 1 Wand of Haste having inconsistent prices, but that's a minor quibble.

And to be sure, my goal isn't to exhaust your patience. I don't agree that 750gp is the RAW price of a Wand of Rhino's Rush. Or more accurately, I don't agree that 750gp is the only RAW price of a Wand of Rhino's Rush.

I would prefer that there was clarification in the MiC that covered this oddity, and maybe a general rule that allowed for casters to voluntarily set caster level to the minimum level for the lowest level and caster level of the spell for every crafter, so that a Paladin could create 750gp wands of Rhino's Rush, as that would fix most of the problem. It's a pretty minor deal though, so if this back and forth is wearing on your nerves, please don't feel compelled to continue it.

Also, I just noticed that your location is in Texas. I hope you and yours are safe. If i could, I'd trade you folks some of our unseasonable heat and dry weather for some of that torrential rain here in Montana.

[Rijan_Sai]

The rules you quoted do not say "When you are buying them, you treat them as the lowest spell level and caster level necessary to cast the spell." Very specifically, they do not say the bolded part. That is crux of our disagreement, and what I have been asking about. You have inferred that part from the tables, as near as I can tell.

Actually, under Other Considerations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#otherConsiderations):

Prices presented in the magic item descriptions (the gold piece value following the item’s caster level) are the market value, which is generally twice what it costs the creator to make the item.

Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.

Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

So it is actually codified in the rules that this is how it works when buying items...

[Venger]

Actually, under Other Considerations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#otherConsiderations):


So it is actually codified in the rules that this is how it works when buying items...

Thank you.

Thanks for your well wishes, Deadline, my family was able to leave Harvey's warpath and stay with me for a while. I hope you are safe from wildfires.

[Deadline]

Awesome, thanks Rijan_Sai! That's the quote I was hoping for (the rules are sometimes a disorganized hot mess, and it can be difficult to find stuff). That does open the door for Haste being treated as a 1st level spell, which may be problematic at some tables, but that's a problem for another day (although I kind of like the idea of cheaper access to Haste, it helps mundanes more than casters).

@Venger - Likewise (and good to hear your family is safe). We've had some close calls here, but are safe at the moment. With a forecast of rain on Wednesday/Thursday, and possibly snow Thursday night, nature may finally be helping out our State's limited (and woefully strained) firefighting resources.

[Rijan_Sai]

Awesome, thanks Rijan_Sai! That's the quote I was hoping for (the rules are sometimes a disorganized hot mess, and it can be difficult to find stuff). That does open the door for Haste being treated as a 1st level spell, which may be problematic at some tables, but that's a problem for another day (although I kind of like the idea of cheaper access to Haste, it helps mundanes more than casters).
No problem! Honestly, I was looking for another rules quote that I know I remember seeing, but can not seem to remember where, that talked about a "hierarchy" of classes when it comes to spell/caster level in creating items (so if it appears on multiple lists, you would uses Wiz/Sor or Cleric first, then Bard, Druid, etc.) But then I came across the one I quoted, which seemed to answer the question even better!


@Venger - Likewise (and good to hear your family is safe). We've had some close calls here, but are safe at the moment. With a forecast of rain on Wednesday/Thursday, and possibly snow Thursday night, nature may finally be helping out our State's limited (and woefully strained) firefighting resources.
Glad to hear your both doing good!! And praying that that rain (and snow!) comes through for you!

[Venger]

No problem! Honestly, I was looking for another rules quote that I know I remember seeing, but can not seem to remember where, that talked about a "hierarchy" of classes when it comes to spell/caster level in creating items (so if it appears on multiple lists, you would uses Wiz/Sor or Cleric first, then Bard, Druid, etc.) But then I came across the one I quoted, which seemed to answer the question even better!


Glad to hear your both doing good!! And praying that that rain (and snow!) comes through for you!

one of my favorite pieces of obscure rules trivia, located here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm)

hierarchy is as follows:

Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

[Rijan_Sai]

one of my favorite pieces of obscure rules trivia, located here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm)

hierarchy is as follows:

And that would explain why I couldn't find it where I was looking!:smallbiggrin: Thanks!