Barbarian Smash

[EsstotheTee]

I was originally planning on doing something with a Warblade, but my DM has requested I play something more meat shield-y, so I've decided to go Goliath Barbarian. I've read tons of threads on numerous forums, but I don't want the trip mechanic to be a part of my play. I just want to hit things really hard with a big sword or axe or hammer or whatever.

Starting off would be Goliath Barbarian, obviously, Mountain Rage ACF, Spirit Lion Totem for pounce and Power Attack as my feat.

I just don't know where to go from there.

Fighter levels are sure to follow, but the feat path is unfamiliar to me.

Also, would starting at level 1 as a fighter be better? Not that it matters a huge amount, but I hate the illiteracy class feature and prefer to circumvent it whenever possible. I understand skill points are able to be used to rid that feature though.

[Venger]

I was originally planning on doing something with a Warblade, but my DM has requested I play something more meat shield-y, so I've decided to go Goliath Barbarian. I've read tons of threads on numerous forums, but I don't want the trip mechanic to be a part of my play. I just want to hit things really hard with a big sword or axe or hammer or whatever.

Starting off would be Goliath Barbarian, obviously, Mountain Rage ACF, Spirit Lion Totem for pounce and Power Attack as my feat.

I just don't know where to go from there.

Fighter levels are sure to follow, but the feat path is unfamiliar to me.

Also, would starting at level 1 as a fighter be better? Not that it matters a huge amount, but I hate the illiteracy class feature and prefer to circumvent it whenever possible. I understand skill points are able to be used to rid that feature though.

read the handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?105525-3-5e-Being-Bane-Eldariel-s-Guide-to-Barbarians) and it'll walk you through the basics.

go into frenzied berserker. can't go wrong with that.

no. if it's between those two, start with barb. it's got more skill points. once you take levels in literally any class other than barbarian (or totemist) you gain literacy, so no need to waste skill opints

[Darrin]

Most of my Barbarian builds quickly multiclass into Ranger 2 and Fighter 2. From there, Horizon Walker is just a short stroll away... six levels of that, and you're immune to fatigue, so bone up on a few Extra Rages.

Another option would be Ranger 2/Sneak-Attack Fighter 1/Highland Stalker 4/More Ranger, picking up Swift Hunter without Scout. Needs some Travel Devotion, too. Mostly this is Pounce-barian with some Skirmish damage.

Hellreaver is a prestige class from Fiendish Codex II that goes really well with beatsticks. Take the Planar Barbarian 3rd substitution level for Knowledge: the Planes 4 (or just buy it cross-class), and you should already have Power Attack. Holy Fury gives you a replenishing supply of points that can be used to buff damage, heal allies, buff saves/AC, etc. Take Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest and another feat that gives you at least 1 essentia and you can replenish your holy fury points at will.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I mean, a Warblade is pretty meat shieldy. Still a d12 hit die, and if you don't get the extra hit points from Rage, you get all sorts of defensive boosts from Iron Heart and Stone Dragon maneuvers. That and Stone Power is easily available.

Anyway. For a Goliath Barbarian, what about throwing some bull rushing in there? Grab Knockback and take levels of Dungeoncrasher Fighter. Something like Barbarian 1/Zhentrim Dungeoncrasher Fighter 2 for a start; grab Power Attack at 1, Improved Bull Rush at 2, Knockback at 3? Run, full attack, get that huge bull rush on your last hit and either bounce 'em off a wall for even more damage or just set 'em up for another charge.

[CharonsHelper]

go into frenzied berserker. can't go wrong with that.

If you enjoy the risk of slaughtering your party members every time you're poked by a trap it's even more fun! Not to mention being easy to manipulate by an illusionist!

[Venger]

If you enjoy the risk of slaughtering your party members every time you're poked by a trap it's even more fun! Not to mention being easy to manipulate by an illusionist!

Why exactly would that ever be an issue? You don't want frenzy. At the beginning of the day, you go and have all your tantrums in a phone booth and then begin your day's activities. What you want is the boost from power attack, not frenzy.

[Gruftzwerg]

Take a few Crusader lvls (dip Barb1 for pounce) and heavy Fighter dip for the needed feats.

- Iron Guard's Glare stance (-4 to hit your teammates next to you)
- your negativ AC (Shock Trooper) invites the enemies to attack you
- Karmic Strike/Rolands Gambit (+ Combat Reflexes)
- Shield Block maneuver can give for a single attack a teammate another +4AC to annoy your enemies/DM.
- Whirlwind: either as feat or as weapon enchantment. for most campaigns the weapon enchantment (3x/day) is enough.
- Defensive Rebuke maneuver(+ Whirlwind) even lets all affected enemies provoke AoO (from you) each time they attack anyone but you for the next round.
- Knockback (feat) (+Whirlwind)

You'll invite the enemies to attack you (Stance + negative AC from Shock Trooper), but if they do, they immediately pay for it (Karmic Strike/Rolands Gambit + Combat Reflexes). You can smash you foes over the place (Knockback) and control the battlefield.

You can add Crusader healing maneuvers if you like, they are good for healing up in downtimes and sometimes even in combat.

For damage, apply the regular ubercharger stuff (Power Attack, Leap Attack, Valorous Weapon...). If you go ubercharger, make sure you have the mobility to "swift" back to your teammates for the stance at end of your turn (either with a maneuver / magic item / Travel Devotion feat..).

Imho this is much more a meatshield in 3.5 terms. Play dirty mind-games with the enemy/DM (which one to attack? Those with the higher AC or the one without any AC that hits back like a truck?)

[CharonsHelper]

Why exactly would that ever be an issue? You don't want frenzy. At the beginning of the day, you go and have all your tantrums in a phone booth and then begin your day's activities. What you want is the boost from power attack, not frenzy.

5 levels almost entirely for the boosted power attack hardly seems worth it. There seem to be much better things to grab in 5 levels.

The only other things you get are a mediocre bonus feat (Diehard) and Supreme Cleave (boosting Cleave, which is a pretty sub-par feat past the first few levels).

[Venger]

5 levels almost entirely for the boosted power attack hardly seems worth it. There seem to be much better things to grab in 5 levels.

The only other things you get are a mediocre bonus feat (Diehard) and Supreme Cleave (boosting Cleave, which is a pretty sub-par feat past the first few levels).

since your every attack is a shock trooper leap attack etc with a normal ubercharger, sure it is

[CharonsHelper]

since your every attack is a shock trooper leap attack etc with a normal ubercharger, sure it is

I suppose if you don't mind dying horribly from being hit by every iterative from every mook ever due to tanking your AC...

[Venger]

I suppose if you don't mind dying horribly from being hit by every iterative from every mook ever due to tanking your AC...

they can't hit you after you have killed them

ac is a waste of time. invest in miss chance like a normal character.

[CharonsHelper]

they can't hit you after you have killed them

ac is a waste of time. invest in miss chance like a normal character.

1. If there's only one foe and/or they all stand within melee reach - sure. It sounds like a dozen mooks with bows & rapid shot would slaughter that character. Or anything with good defences (Mr. Monk with high AC & flurry of misses says hello).

2. Lol - no. AC needs to be invested in properly, but if you do so it's far better than a miss chance. There are a ton of ways to totally ignore miss chances. (ex: Combat Awareness or any other form of blindsight)

[Venger]

1. If there's only one foe and/or they all stand within melee reach - sure. It sounds like a dozen mooks with bows & rapid shot would slaughter that character. Or anything with good defences (Mr. Monk with high AC & flurry of misses says hello).

2. Lol - no. AC needs to be invested in properly, but if you do so it's far better than a miss chance.

well, you sure proved all melee is worthless there. guess we can stop building melee characters and should replace them with archers.

are you honestly saying a monk presents a challenge to a normal ubercharger?


ac is a waste of time. it's a well-understood fact of playing 3.x. there have been many very detailed threads about it, but even cursory research shows that monsters' to-hit goes up much faster than your AC can unless you devote all your resources to it, like an abjurant champion (which uberchargers are not) if you're something else, you don't need to worry about it and should spend your money on miss chance and other gear instead once you've got basic magic armor for enhancements.

[CharonsHelper]

well, you sure proved all melee is worthless there. guess we can stop building melee characters and should replace them with archers.


Only melee characters with horrible AC.


ac is a waste of time. it's a well-understood fact of playing 3.x.

I'm sorry that math proves you wrong? It's really not very hard to have your AC keep up competitively so long as you buy the big six.


are you honestly saying a monk presents a challenge to a normal ubercharger?

3.5 monk I'll give you. But a decent Pathfinder monk would absolutely shred the sort of build you're talking about. (I play Pathfinder - so that's the default in my brain.) Not that it's better overall - but it'd win in a R-S-P sort of way pretty easily.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I'm sorry that math proves you wrong? It's really not very hard to have your AC keep up competitively so long as you buy the big six.

Yes it is. The prices scale insanely for AC and the opportunity costs can be massive. A balor, for example, has a +33 to hit, so you need to boost AC by 34 to keep the odds of not being hit to 50/50.

+5 Full plate gives +13 for 26000. Dex is +1 for free. A Ring of Protection +5 50000. An Amulet of Natural Armor +5 is also 50000. A +5 heavy steel shield is 25000. +5 defending armorspikes are 72000. So far we have gained 33 at the cost of 223000, which is a bit painful but seems doable vs the WBL of 720000 at 20. Except we have devoured slots and made it far more difficult to use useful items. +5 Full plate is generally less useful than, say, +1 Soulfire Heavy Fortification full plate. The shield precludes using a weapon two handed unless you animate it, which spikes the cost to 81000.

[Venger]

Only melee characters with horrible AC.



I'm sorry that math proves you wrong? It's really not very hard to have your AC keep up competitively so long as you buy the big six.



3.5 monk I'll give you. But a decent Pathfinder monk would absolutely shred the sort of build you're talking about. (I play Pathfinder - so that's the default in my brain.) Not that it's better overall - but it'd win in a R-S-P sort of way pretty easily.

No.

Math is the thing proving you wrong. Look at some monsters some time.

I assume the big six in pathfinder are some kind of item that provides a massive scaling bonus to AC that goes up quicker than monster to-hits?


Yes it is. The prices scale insanely for AC and the opportunity costs can be massive. A balor, for example, has a +33 to hit, so you need to boost AC by 34 to keep the odds of not being hit to 50/50.

+5 Full plate gives +13 for 26000. Dex is +1 for free. A Ring of Protection +5 50000. An Amulet of Natural Armor +5 is also 50000. A +5 heavy steel shield is 25000. +5 defending armorspikes are 72000. So far we have gained 33 at the cost of 223000, which is a bit painful but seems doable vs the WBL of 720000 at 20. Except we have devoured slots and made it far more difficult to use useful items. +5 Full plate is generally less useful than, say, +1 Soulfire Heavy Fortification full plate. The shield precludes using a weapon two handed unless you animate it, which spikes the cost to 81000.

Yes, this is the kind of very simple math and cursory research (not even anything from outside core) that shows investing in AC is a sucker's game for people other than abjurant champions.

In addition to these drawbacks, it's also a big opportunity cost. You can't spend that 223k on important items like protecting from common statuses at high level play or general utility.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Yes, this is the kind of very simple math and cursory research (not even anything from outside core) that shows investing in AC is a sucker's game for people other than abjurant champions.

I do not entirely agree with this. AC can be spiked to insane levels easily but you really have to know what you are doing. Using the default provided paths will just a bad idea. I have a character that spikes their AC to patently absurd levels using Armor of God, for example, but I had to dedicate specific resources to do it. Druids can do it as well. An animal form with naturally immense AC plus a Monk's Belt with wilding clasp can quickly pump AC (especially if you are good and throw Greater Luminous Armor into the mix). You either know exactly what you are doing and end up with great AC or don't bother. Those are the most optimal paths (especially since miss chances are easily affordable with Greater Blurring/Gleaming as a +3 armor enhancement and smoking as a +1 weapon enhancement).

[CharonsHelper]

Yes it is. The prices scale insanely for AC and the opportunity costs can be massive. A balor, for example, has a +33 to hit, so you need to boost AC by 34 to keep the odds of not being hit to 50/50.

+5 Full plate gives +13 for 26000. Dex is +1 for free. A Ring of Protection +5 50000. An Amulet of Natural Armor +5 is also 50000. A +5 heavy steel shield is 25000. +5 defending armorspikes are 72000. So far we have gained 33 at the cost of 223000, which is a bit painful but seems doable vs the WBL of 720000 at 20.

*heavy sigh*

No. Bad math is bad.

1. You totally ignored the base +2 AC from the heavy shield.

2. The full plate should be mithril so that you get +3 from Dex. By 20 the cost of mithril is negligible and 16 Dex is easy. (and that ignores the potential of getting Celestial Full Plate or some such)

3. You ignored the potential of the Ring of Protection - which is actually better than the AoNA as it also protects against touch attacks - and totally stacks with it.

4. You ignored all class/character abilities to boost AC.

5. You ignored the potential of spells to boost AC.

6. You ignored the dusty rose ioun stone for +1 AC at $5k.

The way AC works, each point is worth more than the last one, and for about $70k more (and using good math) you get an AC of 53 (still ignoring spells & class/character abilities) and make that Balor hit you 10% of the time on their primary attack - 5% on the rest. Plus - getting confirmed only 10% (5% of iteratives) is much better protection against vorpal than any sort of fortification.

I must admit - I'm rusty on 3.5 ways to boost AC (as I said - I'm more current with Pathfinder) but I'm sure that I'm missing some additional ways to boost AC easily.

But yes - the way d20 works, $ is more efficiently spend on defence while generally character abilities are more efficiently spent on offense. So - at least 1/2 of your wealth should go to defence generally. You should definitely also get a cloak +5 and probably some other defences against magic if you can.

[ZamielVanWeber]

*heavy sigh*

No. Bad math is bad.

1. You totally ignored the base +2 AC from the heavy shield.
Forgot, not ignored, as I did that in about two minutes.


2. The full plate should be mithril so that you get +3 from Dex. By 20 the cost of mithril is negligible and 16 Dex is easy. (and that ignores the potential of getting Celestial Full Plate or some such)
The cost of mithril is not negligible as you spent another 9000 for PLUS the cost to boost your dex for +2 to AC. You insulted me and called my math bad?


3. You ignored the potential of the Ring of Protection - which is actually better than the AoNA as it also protects against touch attacks - and totally stacks with it.
Uh, unless you are optimizing your touch AC will be meaningless even with RoP. You know what is meaningfull against touch attack? Miss chances.


4. You ignored all class/character abilities to boost AC.
Because those are totally part of the "big six." Don't move goal posts please.


5. You ignored the potential of spells to boost AC.
Still not part of the big 6.


6. You ignored the dusty rose ioun stone for +1 AC at $5k.
Ioun stones are godawful items without buying specialized equipment to use them and 5k for +1? Why would I want to spend a net of 1/3 my gold for a nice AC? I will struggle to accomplish anything and be ripped apart by spells (which the balor has).


The way AC works, each point is worth more than the last one, and for about $70k more (and using good math) you get an AC of 53 (still ignoring spells & class/character abilities) and make that Balor hit you 10% of the time on their primary attack - 5% on the rest. Plus - getting confirmed only 10% (5% of iteratives) is much better protection against vorpal than any sort of fortification.
This is objectively false. AC only matters in a specific range and each point is worth, at best, as much as the last. We roll a dice, not use a bell curve. And please, instead of moving goal posts and insulting me for a mistake, demonstrate where you are getting ~20 AC for 70k.


But yes - the way d20 works, $ is more efficiently spend on defence while generally character abilities are more efficiently spent on offense. So - at least 1/2 of your wealth should go to defence generally. You should definitely also get a cloak +5 and probably some other defences against magic if you can.
So you complain that I don't spend character abilities on defense in my example (even though your initial statement explicitly precluded them) and then say here that is alright?

I also feel obligated to point out I grabbed balor because it is a gish enemy; you need a variety of defences against it. Vs the massive physical bruisers at that CR: you get to hits like +57 (tarrasque), +42 (wyrm black dragon), and +40 (ancient brass dragon).

[CharonsHelper]

The cost of mithril is not negligible as you spent another 9000 for PLUS the cost to boost your dex for +2 to AC. You insulted me and called my math bad?

Ioun stones are godawful items without buying specialized equipment to use them and 5k for +1? Why would I want to spend a net of 1/3 my gold for a nice AC? I will struggle to accomplish anything and be ripped apart by spells (which the balor has).

14k is negligible at level 20.



This is objectively false. AC only matters in a specific range and each point is worth, at best, as much as the last. We roll a dice, not use a bell curve. And please, instead of moving goal posts and insulting me for a mistake, demonstrate where you are getting ~20 AC for 70k.

Nope. Sorry. That's simply not true if you actually run the %. If you are being hit 90% of the time and get +1 AC that is reducing the damage by 5.55% (1-85%/90%). If you are being hit 50% of the time and get +1 AC that is reducing the damage by 10% (1-45%/50%). If you are being hit 20% of the time and get +1 AC that is reducing the damage by 25% (1-15%/20%)

[ZamielVanWeber]

14k is negligible at level 20.
25k unless you rolled well on stats, 45k if you rolled less well. Even 25k is a lot because for +2 AC and that is 25k on top of the 220k you spent up to this point on a single stat. Even 14k would not he negligible because these costs are adding up. Consider +1 Greater Blurring Soulfire Mithril Chainshirt costs less, provides better defense against touch attacks, consumes only my armor slot, provides a more reliable defense against regular attacks, costs a mere ~70k while conferring upon me significant immunities. I come out dramatically ahead. Trying to gain relevant AC from itemization is a losing game.

As I said to Venter, if I want massive AC I can get it, but I am doing things with that in mind and items are only part of the picture.


Nope. Sorry. That's simply not true if you actually run the %. If you are being hit 90% of the time and get +1 AC that is reducing the damage by 5.55% (1-85%/90%). If you are being hit 50% of the time and get +1 AC that is reducing the damage by 10% (1-45%/50%). If you are being hit 20% of the time and get +1 AC that is reducing the damage by 25% (1-15%/20%)

The problem here is we are using different metrics. So what I said is not untrue; we are just measuring differently. In my experience the damage from attacks is rarely a problem: the riders are the problem so I just focus on raw hit chance.