Returning from long hiatus to run the Sunless Citadel

[Kobold Esq]

Foreword: I'm a chronic worrier. I know I shouldn't be, and I have no reason to be, but I am. Overthinking things and over-analyzing things helps me prepare. The more prepared I am, the less I worry. So this post is therapeutic for me.


The situation:

I'm a very experienced 3.5 player, but I haven't played since 2010. I haven't DMed a campaign since 2005 (and my last few attempts were very short, aborted campaigns that never quite got off the ground for various reasons). Recently a small group of eager friends of mine decided they want to play a DnD game. I was nominated to run it because I have the most rules experience and knowledge. Though two of the players have zero DnD experience, 3.5 was chosen because it was the mechanical setting I was most familiar with (and one of the new, zero experience players insisted he didn't want to play a "dumbed down version" when I tried to explain the various nuanced differences between 3.5/4/5).

I haven't played or run anything in years, and I don't want to let my players down. I want to focus my personal efforts on helping them learn the mechanics and just have fun bashing in low CR baddies, while at the same time knocking my rust off, so I've elected to run The Sunless Citadel. I'm also working far more and have way more non-work things happening in my life than I did back in the day, so this will hopefully save me some prep time.

Some specific thoughts and questions I had:

1) Is there an official 3.5 update for the Sunless Citadel out there? Perhaps more importantly, does anyone have any individual tweaks they've made to improve it that have been very successful? (I don't want to change the plot, layout, or feel, I'm talking purely mechanical tweaks)

2) Anyone have recommendations for playing a game with mostly very inexperienced players (especially considering I'm far more experienced than they are)?

3) Any suggestions for just knocking the rust off and relaxing in general?

4) Should I just replace that damn shadow? Every time I look at it, I feel like I can already predict it killing a couple PCs before they figure out how to fight and incorporeal creature.

[Mike Miller]

Foreword: I'm a chronic worrier. I know I shouldn't be, and I have no reason to be, but I am. Overthinking things and over-analyzing things helps me prepare. The more prepared I am, the less I worry. So this post is therapeutic for me.


The situation:

I'm a very experienced 3.5 player, but I haven't played since 2010. I haven't DMed a campaign since 2005 (and my last few attempts were very short, aborted campaigns that never quite got off the ground for various reasons). Recently a small group of eager friends of mine decided they want to play a DnD game. I was nominated to run it because I have the most rules experience and knowledge. Though two of the players have zero DnD experience, 3.5 was chosen because it was the mechanical setting I was most familiar with (and one of the new, zero experience players insisted he didn't want to play a "dumbed down version" when I tried to explain the various nuanced differences between 3.5/4/5).

I haven't played or run anything in years, and I don't want to let my players down. I want to focus my personal efforts on helping them learn the mechanics and just have fun bashing in low CR baddies, while at the same time knocking my rust off, so I've elected to run The Sunless Citadel. I'm also working far more and have way more non-work things happening in my life than I did back in the day, so this will hopefully save me some prep time.

Some specific thoughts and questions I had:

1) Is there an official 3.5 update for the Sunless Citadel out there? Perhaps more importantly, does anyone have any individual tweaks they've made to improve it that have been very successful? (I don't want to change the plot, layout, or feel, I'm talking purely mechanical tweaks)

2) Anyone have recommendations for playing a game with mostly very inexperienced players (especially considering I'm far more experienced than they are)?

3) Any suggestions for just knocking the rust off and relaxing in general?

4) Should I just replace that damn shadow? Every time I look at it, I feel like I can already predict it killing a couple PCs before they figure out how to fight and incorporeal creature.

#2) Don't play the enemies expertly until your players begin to grasp the rules. Have the enemies make mistakes, like provoke AoOs and mages in armor.

#3) if general rules questions come up that you don't have answers to, instead of wasting time looking it up just make a quick easy ruling with the understanding that a detailed answer will be found after the session

[Dyllan]

GREAT choice. The Sunless Citadel is my favorite level 1 adventure, especially for players new to the game. It's the first adventure I ever ran, and I've ran it three more times since that first campaign.

A few tips. Come up with a good voice for Meepo. If your players like to roleplay at all, and you do it right, they'll go crazy over that little Kobold. It's even better if they then (as my party did the first time I ran it) later turn on the Kobolds.

The Shadow can be rough, but shouldn't be too bad if you have a balanced party. When they encounter it, remind them they can make Knowledge:Religion checks to learn more about it... and maybe be generous with what information you give. If there's a cleric, he may be able to turn the undead, although that will depend a lot on his charisma mod and what level they are at that point. He can also use cure light wounds spells to damage the undead - and since they do positive energy damage, there's no 50% miss chance (the knowledge:religion check could give him this informatino as well). If anyone has magic missile, have them make a knowledge:arcana check to remember that force effects always hit incorporeal creatures. If your party has none of these things, maybe take out the Shadow.

Remember the Goblins and Kobolds hate each other. If the party does damage to one side, and then rests, have the other take advantage of that. If the party allies with the Kobolds, have the Kobolds come in and slaughter the Goblin women and children when the party is sleeping, or otherwise occupied. Or, if the party weakens the Kobolds enough, let the Goblins do that to the Kobolds. That's particularlly fun if there's a Paladin in the party and they allied with the Kobolds (as happened the first time I ran it). It emphasizes the risk of ever working with evil, while also putting the party into a position to take out the side they previously allied with (earning experience and treasure to prepare them for what's downstairs).

When I first ran it, they got to the Dragonpriest and killed the troll without using any acid or fire... so, I had it slowly regenerate while they were downstairs, and feast on the dead bodies of Kobolds and Goblins they left behind. Later, they sent the Wizard back to retrieve something they had left behind... and he nearly died to the Troll. You may not want to do that, but I used it to make Trolls truly terrifying to the party (and teach them how to defeat their regeneration). In my game world, trolls just don't die without fire or acid... or very extreme actions to destroy them.

The Supplicants of the Gulthias tree, according to the module, can not be saved. However, my party (third time I ran it) captured one of them and took her back to the nearest big city to try to find a way to heal her. So, I let them do it... with a heal spell and a remove curse. But, she had amnesia. She eventually regained her memories and became an important NPC. Don't be afraid to bend the adventure to let your players be awesome.

The Gulthias tree was created when an life ash branch was used to stake a Vampire. Staking a Vampire (at least in my world) doesn't actually destroy it. If ever the stake is removed, the Vampire recovers. Well, my party burnt the tree... destroying the root that was that original stake. So, I had Gulthias, the Vampire return... eventually. He escaped as a mist, blending with the smoke, and then eventually became a major enemy for the party.

The baby frost dragon I also used to further my campaign. Each time I've ran The Sunless Citadel, that dragon's mother ended up coming for revenge, one way or another.

Most likely, the party hasn't killed off the Twig Blights. Make them random encounters in the area even after the Sunless Citadel is over. I even found stats online at one point for an advanced twig blight... of course, you could just homebrew your own.

The first time I ran this, it was a precursor to running Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil (yes, my first time DM'ing I set my sights high... but it was awesome). In order to tie the two together, I had one of the cultist show up (and be stopped by the party) delivering a special fertilizer to the druid. The idea was they would help him to grow more twig blights, and the druid would help the cult by providing some of these creatures. The fertilizer was carried in a bag of holding. So, the party ended up with a bag of holding full of manure. They decided to dump it out in the outhouse outside the tavern (inn?) in the town outside the Sunless Citadel. It was a very hilarious (and well remembered) moment. You could do something similar with anyone who'd have reason to ally with the druid, in order to further the adventure.

The second time I ran this, the party allied with the Kobolds. When they defeated the druid, they decided not to destroy the tree for fear of releasing the Vampire (more experienced players... and maybe one of them talked to someone who played in my first campaign). So, they left the Kobolds in charge of it. I had the Kobolds farm the Underdark for creatures to make into Supplicants. Eventually they started raiding the nearby town, and the party had to come back and deal with their former allies. Actually, in this case, they also allied with the white dragon who was the mother of the dragon that was killed, so the party had to face powerful Supplicants, a white dragon, and all the kobolds (some of who had levelled by this point).

There's SO much you can do with this module... and the module itself is so good even if you do nothing but run it as is.

[ksbsnowowl]

I ran the Sunless Citadel, and most of its associated modules, starting in 2014. I'll be starting the final module in the series in a month or so, once my group reaches 18th level. I wrote a campaign journal (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=14113.0) for it, so that might give you some insight as to how a group of PC's might approach the various aspects of the module. Sadly, the (second) fight with the shadow is the one thing I didn't get written down, and now it is lost to the aether. Regardless, they did defeat it. The first time they ran away (it won't chase them out of the room), and after consultation with the healer in Oakhurst, they came back better prepared. The shadow is definitely survivable; but will be more easily defeated by some character types than others.

I also wrote a text document for myself with all updated 3.5 stats of every monster in the module, as well as mention of trap DC's for a few spots. Send me a private message with your email address, and I'll send it to you (along with those of the subsequent modules, if you would like).

[Kobold Esq]

Thanks for all the detailed thoughts! I will likely keep this thread updated as my players and I go through the first beginning stages of set ip and play to let people follow along.

I also intend to read the campaign journal linked above, just to get an idea of how it plays out for real players.

[Kobold Esq]

So I read well into your campaign journal, and it was really helpful in seeing the module in action!

Our group just had out session zero. The group is three COMPLETE newbies, and one lightly experienced player, but that player has very low system mastery compared to me. We spent a few hours just building characters, talking about the basic functions of how attack bonuses, AC, saving throws, skills, etc, were all determined. The players fairly quickly decided on what types of characters they wanted to play, but since for three out of the four this was literally their first time ever encountering pencil and paper RPGs, a learning curve is expected. I expect them to pick it up quickly though. I decided on 28 point buy, average starting wealth. One player elected to take a starting package because she didn't want to fiddle with all the prices of individual items. For now we are using almost entirely PHB. Other supplements will be allowed if a player wants to use them, but I'm limiting the availability just so players won't get overwhelmed.


Here is the party, introduced in the order that they came up with their backstory.

Player M: CG Human Barbarian by the name of Arnold Schwarzenegger. Only 15 strength, relatively balanced other stats. He plans to multiclass later in life to become an actor and politician. Player has never played DnD before, but has a strong, if goofy, vision for his character. He intends to keep the terrible Governator accent going for as long as he can. Backstory: captured by nomadic barbarians as a child and taken from his homeland (which the character imagines to be something out of the Sound of Music, with rolling hills and pretty alps), raised as a warrior. Now a young adult, he wants to find his way home, and is enlisting help. Along the way he wants to punish other bad guys like the raiders who took him. Punish them with death. Player is super exciting to seriously roleplay a silly character.

Player S: CG Half-elf rogue. Daughter of a single (elven) mother, she never knew her father. According to what she gleaned from mom, her dad was a human from (same country as Arnold). Rogue is a self taught street rat, seeking out her missing father. She is choosing to team up with Arnold because they eventually plan to go to the same place. Likes shiny things and adventure. Player is the most experienced of the group.

Player B: NG Elf druid. Druid gal grew up a friend of the rogue. Her parents were friends of the rogues mother. Elf parents disapproved of the single mother sleeping with humans, but are too polite to say so to the mom's face. Druid gal wants to help her rogue friend on her quest, while also getting out and seeing the world.

Player C: NG Elf ranger (archer). Also a new player who barely even knew what to expect from a pencil and paper RPG (all previous experiences were with computer games). Needed a lot of prodding to work on a backstory, spent way too much time agonizing over small decisions, like which backup weapon to carry. At the prodding of the druid player, decided on being a relative of the druid, and they agreed that he was her younger brother. The elf parents told the ranger, "Go keep your sister safe on her foolish quest to help her friend." Then they secretly told the druid, "Take your brother with you. If you don't, he might never move out!"

As you can see from the builds, these guys are not going for super optimization. Arnold's player is already planning some bard multiclassing later in life, if he lives that long. The druid player accidentally picked the most complicated PHB class because she took an online personality quiz that said she should play a druid. They are all individually smart people, so I think they will learn fast (one CPA, one other finance guy, a teacher, and a biologist/animal trainer). Most interesting to me is that the age range of the group is currently 25-29, all nerds, yet somehow three out of the four have managed to never play before.

We agreed out of game to have a pre-set hook to get them started on their way to Oakhurst. The Hucrele family is actually a larger merchant family spread out over the local area, and their main power base is in an (unnamed) larger city roughly a week's ride away. In asking around looking for suitable adventuring work there, a Hucrele affiliated merchant made the party aware of a rumor that two young members of the Hucrele extended family were rumored to have struck out on their own and gone missing. The Oakhurst Hucrele matriarch is not especially well-connected or powerful, and it wasn't official work, but the merchant suggested that maybe if the players helped her out and found her children, it would open more doors for them with the main family. As inexperienced adventurers, they had to take what they could get.

Session zero ended with me informing the players that the next session would begin with them riding into Oakhurst along the New Road, two weeks before the summer solstice.



So now I have one week to make sure my session 1 is fully prepped. Make sure I have all my town notes organized.