How can a cleric overcome spell resistance with Power Stones or Dorjes?

[magicalmagicman]

I'm in a nonepic game so I'm gonna true mind switch myself into a pit fiend. Or something more awesome if I finish combing through the monster manuals.

I'm gonna combine use psionic device with Surge of Fortune to be able to use the dorje or power stone 100% of the time. Dorjes need a DC of 20 so only 1 point of UPD needed, Power Stones are cheaper but I need a DC of 34, I think I can hit that with some spells.

So anyways... in case of a pit fiend, I can beat its save by enervating the **** out of him, but when I'm using a Dorje or a Power Stone on him, I can't use Assay Resistance or True Casting to overcome his SR.

So... any suggestions to boost my chances of landing that 10,000xp per attempt power on him?

[RoboEmperor]

Surge of Fortune that spell resistance check. It works with Manifestations becuase it doesn't specify boosting spells.

[Zanos]

Lower Spell Resistance from the Draconomicon will drop it by 15.

[magicalmagicman]

Those two should do it. Thanks!

[Sagetim]

I mean, since no one else saw the need to bring it up (what with being helpful and giving you the answersy ou needed immediately and all) I feel the need to point out something about swapping into a Pit Fiend: is the ECL modifier and subsequent ton of hit dice just not a factor for you?

I mean, Pit Fiend has a really nice pile of abilities on it and all, but if you mind switch into it, I don't think you'll be leveling up again any time soon. Also worth noting: aren't xp costs on magic and psionic items generally factored into the market value of the item in question? It's why a scroll of wish costs 28k instead of like, 3k. And so your power stone is going to cost like, 50 someodd thousand gold, but on the bright side it won't cost you 10,000 xp to use the power.

Also, is your patron deity okay with this? And/or are you a cleric of ideals that would be okay with this whole plan of pretty much becoming a Pit Fiend?

Final question: do you have a way to hunt yourself up a Pit Fiend? Are you planning on trying to Gate one in, or something? If you are, you might have to compile a sufficient bribe just to entice it through the Gate so you can pull off this plan without winding up stuck in hell (or wherever).

Anyway, good luck, this plan sounds like it's going to make for a ridiculous story later. I just felt someone had to...play devil's advocate.

[Psyren]

I can't use Assay Resistance or True Casting to overcome his SR.

True Casting no, but Assay Resistance looks like it should work.

[Zanos]

I mean, since no one else saw the need to bring it up (what with being helpful and giving you the answersy ou needed immediately and all) I feel the need to point out something about swapping into a Pit Fiend: is the ECL modifier and subsequent ton of hit dice just not a factor for you?
Mind switch specifies the effects of trading bodies, and ECL changes are not among them.


Final question: do you have a way to hunt yourself up a Pit Fiend? Are you planning on trying to Gate one in, or something? If you are, you might have to compile a sufficient bribe just to entice it through the Gate so you can pull off this plan without winding up stuck in hell (or wherever).
If he were to use Gate, it's not like there's an option to decline it. Balors aren't unique.

[kentran]

I mean, since no one else saw the need to bring it up (what with being helpful and giving you the answersy ou needed immediately and all) I feel the need to point out something about swapping into a Pit Fiend: is the ECL modifier and subsequent ton of hit dice just not a factor for you?

I mean, Pit Fiend has a really nice pile of abilities on it and all, but if you mind switch into it, I don't think you'll be leveling up again any time soon. Also worth noting: aren't xp costs on magic and psionic items generally factored into the market value of the item in question? It's why a scroll of wish costs 28k instead of like, 3k. And so your power stone is going to cost like, 50 someodd thousand gold, but on the bright side it won't cost you 10,000 xp to use the power.

Also, is your patron deity okay with this? And/or are you a cleric of ideals that would be okay with this whole plan of pretty much becoming a Pit Fiend?

Final question: do you have a way to hunt yourself up a Pit Fiend? Are you planning on trying to Gate one in, or something? If you are, you might have to compile a sufficient bribe just to entice it through the Gate so you can pull off this plan without winding up stuck in hell (or wherever).

Anyway, good luck, this plan sounds like it's going to make for a ridiculous story later. I just felt someone had to...play devil's advocate.

Great comments and I support this.

[Crake]

I mean, since no one else saw the need to bring it up (what with being helpful and giving you the answersy ou needed immediately and all) I feel the need to point out something about swapping into a Pit Fiend: is the ECL modifier and subsequent ton of hit dice just not a factor for you?

I mean, Pit Fiend has a really nice pile of abilities on it and all, but if you mind switch into it, I don't think you'll be leveling up again any time soon.

Mind switch pretty clearly specifies what you do and do not gain from switching. Hit dice and a change in ECL are not among them. You don't gain any SU or SLA abilities of the form, simply a short list that basically amounts to a permanent polymorph into the creature, except its an instantaneous effect.


Final question: do you have a way to hunt yourself up a Pit Fiend? Are you planning on trying to Gate one in, or something? If you are, you might have to compile a sufficient bribe just to entice it through the Gate so you can pull off this plan without winding up stuck in hell (or wherever).

As someone else noted, pit fiends aren't unique creatures, they have no option to avoid being pulled through a gate and subsequently forced to perform services for the caster for 1 round/CL.

As for ensuring the success of the mind switch, dominating the balor beforehand, ordering it to lower it's spell resistance and voluntarily fail the save is probably your best bet. No good, they have magic circle vs good as an at-will SLA, so they practically cannot be dominated. Keep in mind that even in your body, the pit fiend will still be a formidable enemy, and it certainly still have access to wish as an SLA 1/year, which it will likely use at it's earliest convenience to regain it's natural form, and begin plotting against you.

That is, if your DM even lets you mind switch with an outsider. Outsiders lack a dual nature, their mind, body and soul are one entity, so it's not really possible to swap minds with them or even possess them, though the rules do not reflect this, so that's certainly something your DM may not consider.

[RoboEmperor]

As for ensuring the success of the mind switch, dominating the balor beforehand, ordering it to lower it's spell resistance and voluntarily fail the save is probably your best bet. No good, they have magic circle vs good as an at-will SLA, so they practically cannot be dominated. Keep in mind that even in your body, the pit fiend will still be a formidable enemy, and it certainly still have access to wish as an SLA 1/year, which it will likely use at it's earliest convenience to regain it's natural form, and begin plotting against you.

That is, if your DM even lets you mind switch with an outsider. Outsiders lack a dual nature, their mind, body and soul are one entity, so it's not really possible to swap minds with them or even possess them, though the rules do not reflect this, so that's certainly something your DM may not consider.

You make a good point here. How about a clone? Outsiders have flesh, and you use that flesh to create a clone and true mind switch into that.

There's also always Statue -> Stone to Flesh for a corpse. So no gate required here.

In both cases here you're probably a unique outsider with a dual nature.

OP showed intent of switching with an elemental in his other post, but I don't think you can create clones or corpses of elementals due to a lack of flesh.

[gogogome]

That is, if your DM even lets you mind switch with an outsider. Outsiders lack a dual nature, their mind, body and soul are one entity, so it's not really possible to swap minds with them or even possess them, though the rules do not reflect this, so that's certainly something your DM may not consider.

I disagree. The power clearly states that the mind, soul, and body are three different things, and you are switching your mind and soul into their body and their mind into yours. It doesn't say their soul enters your body.

Also, no reason why the outsider's soul can't be split in two, one part is the body and the other part is everything but the body. I believe d&d talks about splitting and combining souls all the time.

There's also a third option. Since the outsider lost its will save, its soul just becomes a body, and its sentience is suppressed as your sentience takes over permanently, and until your soul is removed his soul is just the body. His mind could enter your body, but that will be a souless but not mindless creature.

But I completely agree Pit Fiends are too dangerous due to their wish. I recommend gating Balors.

[RoboEmperor]

I read the description of mind switch and true mind switch and a few problems or points of interest came up.

@Crake
I don't think there's any problem with outsiders. If their soul is their body, then you take over their soul! The power description goes on to say that you switch "life forces", so Iunno, it's weird, but d&d is weird. So I guess you swap life forces instead of souls, or just their mind and not their soul like gogogome suggested, or whatever with outsiders. One thing for sure is though, if this succeeds, your mind and soul, and the outsider's body, are not fused. They are separate things. If you die and get resurrected I'm pretty sure you come back as a human or w.e race you were.

@magicalmagicman

You can target any creature whose Hit Dice are equal to or less than your manifester level.

According to the rules of Dorjes and Psicrowns, you can only have a maximum of +5 manifester level of the minimum manifester level. So at most you can swap with a 22hd creature. So no omni-elementals.

@someonenoone11 (myself)
Target of mind switch is a creature. Corpses and inert bodies are not creatures, therefore clones and stone to flesh fails.

[RoboEmperor]

Actually, further thinking...

Outsider's type would change to humanoid.
Your humanoid type would change to outsider...

so... by RAW, the outsider's mind splits from its soul, grows a new soul, and takes over your body, while your mind and soul merge with the outsider's soul-body. XD. Or something like that.

Or... The outsider's soul no longer is a body and enters your body, and your soul now takes the form of the outsider you swapped with. So in this case you are switching the soul's ability to become a body. Outsider's soul cannot turn into a body, and your soul has to turn into a body. Or something like that.

[Psyren]

That is, if your DM even lets you mind switch with an outsider. Outsiders lack a dual nature, their mind, body and soul are one entity, so it's not really possible to swap minds with them or even possess them, though the rules do not reflect this, so that's certainly something your DM may not consider.

Well, it's weird because even soul transfer effects (like Magic Jar) have no language stopping them from working on outsiders. As written, if you Magic Jar into a fiend, you will displace something from them and cram that something into the jar, then get to pilot the body. Even in Pathfinder, where they tried to clean up possession mechanics, they didn't appear to alter this.

[magicalmagicman]

Great comments and I support this.

Everything he said is basically incorrect so how can you support it?

I'm a deityless cleric so patron deities are not a concern.

Power Stones cannot hold xp component so you the manifester have to pay 10,000xp. I am fully aware of this and that I will also be losing a level when my former body dies. I'm not interested in breaking games and I fully understand this true mind switch trick is a bad idea since the only things I'll be getting are Ex abilities and increased physical scores, both of which are not worth an entire level + 10,000xp, which makes me basically 2 levels behind.

I keep forgetting Pit Fiends have wish, and I believe it is fully within Wish's power to revert the True Mind Switch making the whole ordeal pointless, so I will not be going Pit Fiends.

I will be using a scroll of Gate (thanks for suggesting this). Not only does using gate mean I can do it earlier, it also means I don't need to defeat saves and spell resistance since I can force the gated creature to voluntarily lower his spell resistance and fail his saving throw. Combined with a Power Stone of True Mind Switch with a manifester level of 22, everything should cost only 13,775gp. I will however also be using a Skin of Proteus (84,000gp) for at-will polymorph to polymorph myself into a human indefinitely. If I remove the Skin of Proteus I can do all this at level 10. Hold my level up when I get 10,000xp, and then expend all of it on the true mind switch. I'll probably look into living in bags of holding until I can get the money for a skin of proteus, or an alternative cheaper item.

I've been reading duel monsters lore (yes I am a nerd...) and I came across this image:
https://orig09.deviantart.net/804c/f/2017/196/3/a/purushaddoll_aeon_by_yugi_master-dbget10.png

The monster there is actually a sealed/dead god whose been fighting tooth and nail to be resurrected, and that picture is her moment of triumph. Despite all of the heroes' epic efforts, during the climax of a massive war, she finally fully revives as a massive, colossal sized entity, towering over everything in existence, brimming with energy and power, and when i saw this picture, I was like: I want to do that!

So that is my motivation for all this. To turn my character into a colossal sized creature of epicness that radiates light through its immense power. Immense power is achieved just by being a full casting cleric, so the only thing I need is a body change.

Pit Fiend was my first choice because I like Pit Fiends, but they are not big enough! So I combed through the monster manual for colossal sized outsiders or elementals to no avail. I found Gargantuan Elementls: Monoliths (CAr), Omnimental (MMIII), and Tempest (MMII), but now I'm hit with the HD limit problem as these guys have 30+ hd. I really don't want to have to settle for a Greater Fire Elemental especially since fire elementals can't cross water. Is there a way to bring creature's hd down? Enervation says it reduces class levels not hd, and specifically says if negative levels = hd the creature dies signifying hd is really untouched by the spell.

Regarding Outsider's (and elemental's) soul and body fusion, by RAW both magic jar and mind switch can affect outsiders. How you interpret that is up to DMs, about life force or mind only or soul shard swapping or whatever.

[Deadline]

Pit Fiend was my first choice because I like Pit Fiends, but they are not big enough! So I combed through the monster manual for colossal sized outsiders or elementals to no avail. I found Gargantuan Elementls: Monoliths (CAr), Omnimental (MMIII), and Tempest (MMII), but now I'm hit with the HD limit problem as these guys have 30+ hd. I really don't want to have to settle for a Greater Fire Elemental especially since fire elementals can't cross water. Is there a way to bring creature's hd down? Enervation says it reduces class levels not hd, and specifically says if negative levels = hd the creature dies signifying hd is really untouched by the spell.

Does it have to be an Outsider or Elemental?

[magicalmagicman]

Does it have to be an Outsider or Elemental?

I like consistency in the games I play so I like to choose a creature able to be called through gate or planar binding. Reading Gate, they just have to be extraplanar not outsider or elemental like Planar binding.

Biggest importance are size and appearance. Huge size minimum. As for appearance, something along the lines of a female fire elemental wearing armor and equipment.

Anyways, which creatures did you have in mind?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Weighing in on another facet of the OP: Pit fiends are likely as good as you are going to find as an all-round all-purpose awesome form.

[Psyren]

The monster there is actually a sealed/dead god whose been fighting tooth and nail to be resurrected, and that picture is her moment of triumph. Despite all of the heroes' epic efforts, during the climax of a massive war, she finally fully revives as a massive, colossal sized entity, towering over everything in existence, brimming with energy and power, and when i saw this picture, I was like: I want to do that!

So that is my motivation for all this. To turn my character into a colossal sized creature of epicness that radiates light through its immense power. Immense power is achieved just by being a full casting cleric, so the only thing I need is a body change.

Becoming a god is probably going to require some GM fiat.

Also, what is the rest of the party doing while you do this, besides bearing witness to how awesome you are?

[magicalmagicman]

Becoming a god is probably going to require some GM fiat.

Also, what is the rest of the party doing while you do this, besides bearing witness to how awesome you are?

I don't want to become a god. I want to look like a god. Big Difference. I'm still just a cleric, but now 2 levels behind in exchange for a massive cool shining body of awesomeness (I am level 9.5, they are 11, when i do this). The point here is that I'm big, I'm shining/flaming, and enemies who view me will cower in fear.

My current choice is a greater fire elemental. I gain 20 STR (+7 compared to my original stats), 27 DEX (+14), 18 Con (+4), Burn Ex ability, and a few minor special qualities. That's it. I still retain my hit points. This would improve my melee ability a lot, but seeing how 100% of my feats are spellcasting feats I'm still a spellcaster in the back casting spells, who just lost all of her gear and now have to have them refitted to her new Huge size.

In addition i will probably set fire to everything i stand on (unless I can find a rule saying Fire Elementals can make their fire not hurt anything), be a big target and draw too much unnecessary attention, so I will probably need a Phylactery of Change and stay in a human form virtually all the time.

I just want to be big, flaming, and immortal while I cast spells. You see what I'm getting at here? Awesome visuals.

[Psyren]

I just want to be big, flaming, and immortal while I cast spells. You see what I'm getting at here? Awesome visuals.

Well I do now, because you didn't actually explain it until now :smalltongue:

Have you considered taking over an Efreet? That gets you the big flaming body, along with the ability to not be big and flaming when you need to. Plus hands and speech to cast with and body slots for items. Since it can't use its wish for itself you should be safe from getting served eviction papers.

[ZamielVanWeber]

What about a smoke paraelemental? You have a massive burning body of smoke and can fly. There is also a magma option if you want to look like Te Ka or the titan from Disney's Hercules.

[magicalmagicman]

Well I do now, because you didn't actually explain it until now :smalltongue:

Have you considered taking over an Efreet? That gets you the big flaming body, along with the ability to not be big and flaming when you need to. Plus hands and speech to cast with and body slots for items. Since it can't use its wish for itself you should be safe from getting served eviction papers.

No! Size is of the utmost importance! That and I will get evicted if I even say "Efr" of Efreeti.

I want to be colossal (huge in this case)! The moment I reveal my true form, I want everyone to drop their jaw and scream WTF!!!

For some reason i do like the elemental in armor look. If you played NWN1, I liked water elemental and air elemental models there. So if I can help it I'm gonna go an elemental.


What about a smoke paraelemental? You have a massive burning body of smoke and can fly. There is also a magma option if you want to look like Te Ka or the titan from Disney's Hercules.

Yup, there's also Magma Paraelemental from Manual of the Planes. I'm considering them, need to spend some time picturing which will look more awesome.

[Fouredged Sword]

Applying negative levels will allow you to count high hd forms as lower hd for spell effects.

[Crake]

Well, it's weird because even soul transfer effects (like Magic Jar) have no language stopping them from working on outsiders. As written, if you Magic Jar into a fiend, you will displace something from them and cram that something into the jar, then get to pilot the body. Even in Pathfinder, where they tried to clean up possession mechanics, they didn't appear to alter this.

The weirdest part is that the possession spell that they created specifies that creatures without a dual nature, ie ones that have a single body-soul unit, use the effects of greater possession even when using the regular possession spell, because they can't project their soul into a creature and leave a body behind, because their soul is their body:


Creatures whose souls are their bodies, such as incorporeal undead and non-native outsiders, use the effects of greater possession instead.

But they didn't consider the process in reverse.

Understand me when I say that this is, by very clear RAW totally not how any of these effects are supposed to work, but in my games I run any kind of soul swapping, possession, or any other such effects used on creatures without a dual nature to be a very bad idea. Worst case your consciousness is lost to the ether, and your body is possessed by the creature, which may or may not be a problem for them (after all, they could just kill the body to release themselves) while you simply die, best case it simply doesn't work. Magic jar for example, you would attempt to possess the creature, it's body/soul would enter the gem, leaving you with nothing to posess, meaning your soul would go back to the gem, which would then release the creature, netting you no real effect.

I think the designers just never really considered the implications of attempting to displace the soul of a creature that lacked a dual nature.

[magicalmagicman]

Applying negative levels will allow you to count high hd forms as lower hd for spell effects.

Here's the thing though, Negative levels say you lose an effective level, and that if their negative levels equal their hd, they die, meaning negative levels does not change hit die. Could you argue your side of the argument? I'd like to be proven wrong here!


The weirdest part is that the possession spell that they created specifies that creatures without a dual nature, ie ones that have a single body-soul unit, use the effects of greater possession even when using the regular possession spell, because they can't project their soul into a creature and leave a body behind, because their soul is their body:



But they didn't consider the process in reverse.

Understand me when I say that this is, by very clear RAW totally not how any of these effects are supposed to work, but in my games I run any kind of soul swapping, possession, or any other such effects used on creatures without a dual nature to be a very bad idea. Worst case your consciousness is lost to the ether, and your body is possessed by the creature, which may or may not be a problem for them (after all, they could just kill the body to release themselves) while you simply die, best case it simply doesn't work. Magic jar for example, you would attempt to possess the creature, it's body/soul would enter the gem, leaving you with nothing to posess, meaning your soul would go back to the gem, which would then release the creature, netting you no real effect.

I think the designers just never really considered the implications of attempting to displace the soul of a creature that lacked a dual nature.

As others have pointed out, By RAW True Mind Switch exchanges your mind and soul for their mind (not soul).

In addition, since we have type changes, the outsider turns into a dual natured creature and the caster becomes a single natured creature. How this happens is up for interpretation but nothing stops a humanoid swapping with an outsider to become an outsider, and an outsider swapping with a humanoid to become a humanoid.

[Fouredged Sword]

"And other details of spells or abilities." You dont actually lose your hd, you just count as a lower hd for calculating if a spell works or how a spell works.

[magicalmagicman]

"And other details of spells or abilities." You dont actually lose your hd, you just count as a lower hd for calculating if a spell works or how a spell works.

Hmm. This could work. If it does then I could possibly choose a Primal Fire Elemental! Ohhh yeah. Just need several scrolls of gate to gate in mature nabassus for their at-will enervation to bring the beast's hd down to 20, and a gate with CL 32. Otherwise I guess Fire Elemental Monolith it is. If no CL 18 gate is accessible I'll swap with a Omnimental.

[Crake]

As others have pointed out, By RAW True Mind Switch exchanges your mind and soul for their mind (not soul).

In addition, since we have type changes, the outsider turns into a dual natured creature and the caster becomes a single natured creature. How this happens is up for interpretation but nothing stops a humanoid swapping with an outsider to become an outsider, and an outsider swapping with a humanoid to become a humanoid.

I'm not gonna argue with you on the point, because as I said, by RAW, it's perfectly clear that the spell would function. I'm just giving my own personal take on the matter, because to me it makes no sense that you could swap your mind and soul for just their mind. I believe the intent there was that you swap your mind and soul for their mind and soul, because otherwise that leaves you with two souls, and them with none, which, as I said, makes no sense. The clone spell makes it quite clear that without a soul, a body is simply inert, and there's quite a lot of fluff that supports the idea that the soul is the consciousness, meaning the soul is the mind. I believe that mind switch was simply clarifying that swapping the mind also includes the soul, meaning you couldn't use mind switch to, for example, escape your fate of being damned to hell upon your death.

Again, repeatedly making it incredibly clear this is not at all RAW. By clear and obvious RAW, it works, but then, by clear and obvious RAW, you can also heal a dying man by dunking his head in water and drowning him for a round, so I wouldn't exactly treat RAW as gospel.

[magicalmagicman]

I'm not gonna argue with you on the point, because as I said, by RAW, it's perfectly clear that the spell would function. I'm just giving my own personal take on the matter, because to me it makes no sense that you could swap your mind and soul for just their mind. I believe the intent there was that you swap your mind and soul for their mind and soul, because otherwise that leaves you with two souls, and them with none, which, as I said, makes no sense. The clone spell makes it quite clear that without a soul, a body is simply inert, and there's quite a lot of fluff that supports the idea that the soul is the consciousness, meaning the soul is the mind. I believe that mind switch was simply clarifying that swapping the mind also includes the soul, meaning you couldn't use mind switch to, for example, escape your fate of being damned to hell upon your death.

Again, repeatedly making it incredibly clear this is not at all RAW. By clear and obvious RAW, it works, but then, by clear and obvious RAW, you can also heal a dying man by dunking his head in water and drowning him for a round, so I wouldn't exactly treat RAW as gospel.

I understand your point, I do. The problem here is that it makes absolutely no goddamn sense that a soul can be a physical body, a living body that needs to breath at that too. It's not an incorporeal body like a ghost either. It's a body whose limbs can be chopped off and regrown indefinitely. So if I chop a Pit Fiend's arm off, is his soul split in two? Then when his limb regenerates, now his soul increased in mass or soul mass? Why i can't I turn carve that dead chopped off limb into a statue and animate it with animate object? So now we have a piece of the soul animated by a semblance of intelligence. What if I cast permanency, awaken construct, and greater humanoid essence on that animated pit fiend arm, and then true mind switch that? Now my soul is possessing a piece of rotting pit Fiend Soul and moving it about like my own body.

So the point here is, you don't nitpick, split hairs, or dissect d&d's world mechanics in hopes it would "make sense", because it never will, because the d&d authors went for simplicity and fun without even bothering to make everything make sense at the atomic level. So it's fun to think outsiders don't have the dual nature, but logically it just won't make any sense, ever, especially when interacted with all the other stuff in d&d like regeneration and stuff. In the above example I just proved a soul can possess a part of a soul that makes up a body. So likewise I can rip out the consciousness part of an outsider's soul, put it in my body, and put my soul into the body parts of his soul, and control that permanently, because if I can permanently control a piece of soul that makes up a body that is also completely separate from the pit fiend's consciousness, then no reason I can't do the same to a bigger piece, a piece so big it's the entire pit fiend body minus its mind.

[Crake]

I understand your point, I do. The problem here is that it makes absolutely no goddamn sense that a soul can be a physical body, a living body that needs to breath at that too. It's not an incorporeal body like a ghost either. It's a body whose limbs can be chopped off and regrown indefinitely. So if I chop a Pit Fiend's arm off, is his soul split in two? Then when his limb regenerates, now his soul increased in mass or soul mass? Why i can't I turn carve that dead chopped off limb into a statue and animate it with animate object? So now we have a piece of the soul animated by a semblance of intelligence. What if I cast permanency, awaken construct, and greater humanoid essence on that animated pit fiend arm, and then true mind switch that? Now my soul is possessing a piece of rotting pit Fiend Soul and moving it about like my own body.

Well, as per the fiendish codexes, dead outsider matter returns to it's plane of origin shortly after being killed (the outer planes literally being constructed of "soulstuff" so to speak), so the pit fiend's arm would simply dissipate, presumably weakening the pit fiend's soul as that portion of it's soul is essentially destroyed, but thanks to it's ability to regenerate, it has the ability to restore that power. A lesser fiend without regeneration would be left without that limb, and their soul as a result permanently weakened until they recieved a regenerate spell or something similar.


So the point here is, you don't nitpick, split hairs, or dissect d&d's world mechanics in hopes it would "make sense", because it never will, because the d&d authors went for simplicity and fun without even bothering to make everything make sense at the atomic level. So it's fun to think outsiders don't have the dual nature, but logically it just won't make any sense, ever, especially when interacted with all the other stuff in d&d like regeneration and stuff. In the above example I just proved a soul can possess a part of a soul that makes up a body. So likewise I can rip out the consciousness part of an outsider's soul, put it in my body, and put my soul into the body parts of his soul, and control that permanently, because if I can permanently control a piece of soul that makes up a body that is also completely separate from the pit fiend's consciousness, then no reason I can't do the same to a bigger piece, a piece so big it's the entire pit fiend body minus its mind.

While I understand that some tables and players prefer a simpler experience, I enjoy understanding how things work in the game world, so when someone does ask a question like "what happens when I cut off a pit fiend's arm", I can follow a line of logic that will lead me to an answer, just like I gave you above.

[magicalmagicman]

Well, as per the fiendish codexes, dead outsider matter returns to it's plane of origin shortly after being killed (the outer planes literally being constructed of "soulstuff" so to speak), so the pit fiend's arm would simply dissipate, presumably weakening the pit fiend's soul as that portion of it's soul is essentially destroyed, but thanks to it's ability to regenerate, it has the ability to restore that power. A lesser fiend without regeneration would be left without that limb, and their soul as a result permanently weakened until they recieved a regenerate spell or something similar.


DISSECTION OF A DRETCH

Dead outsider matter (dretch corpse) fully dissected and analyzed.


DEATH
...
Outside the Abyss: If a demon is killed on another plane,
its body eventually returns to the Abyss—unless trapped
through magical means, such as a dimensional anchor spell.
(See the Demonic Death Throes sidebar for more details on
how demon bodies sometimes disappear.) No matter what
happens to the demon’s body, if it is killed outside the Abyss,
its “essence” falls back into the raw chaos of the Abyss, where
it is then be reformed as a new demon.

So according to the fiendish codex I
1. Outsider's bodies don't fall back to their plane.
2. Only their "essence" falls back to their plane.
3. Their soul is made up of essence and body, two separate things.
4. My example works the way I said it does.
5. True Mind Switch and Magic Jar displaces essence instead of the entire soul.

[Crake]

Dead outsider matter (dretch corpse) fully dissected and analyzed.



So according to the fiendish codex I
1. Outsider's bodies don't fall back to their plane.
2. Only their "essence" falls back to their plane.
3. Their soul is made up of essence and body, two separate things.
4. My example works the way I said it does.
5. True Mind Switch and Magic Jar displaces essence instead of the entire soul.

I had a long post prepared, but I think it might be better to instead take this discussion to it's own thread, it's certainly a discussion I'm quite happy to continue.

[magicalmagicman]

I had a long post prepared, but I think it might be better to instead take this discussion to it's own thread, it's certainly a discussion I'm quite happy to continue.

Me too! Except, this thread is pretty much finished, and I don't want to spam the 1st page especially since I have other questions I'd like to ask so... maybe you should start the new topic, or continue the discussion here :)

[Crake]

Me too! Except, this thread is pretty much finished, and I don't want to spam the 1st page especially since I have other questions I'd like to ask so... maybe you should start the new topic, or continue the discussion here :)

I made a thread over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?536122-Outsiders-souls-possession-Oh-my!)