Pathfinder to D&D 3.5 or D&D 5e?

[WorldAdventurer]

I've been reading and making characters for Pathfinder for a while now, thankfully I can now use at least one of them, and I think I know the system and Golarion setting as well as I can without more practical application.

From what I've heard/seen, Pathfinder was based heavily on D&D 3.5 and because it has so much material the system can be very breakable. It also seems to me that a lot more people rollplay in D&D 3.5, but that's just my subjective experiences.

D&D 5e I've heard and seen less of than Pathfinder and 3.5. From what I am told, it is much less complicated rules system that focuses more on the roleplaying than the rollplaying compared to Pathfinder and D&D 3.5.

So given that I am coming from Pathfinder and am someone who enjoys roleplaying over mechanics, but still likes a variety of options, would you recommend I branch out into 5e or 3.5e first?

[Ignimortis]

Definitely 3.5. 5e isn't exactly the most flexible system (due to dearth of content and design goals), and if you like PF's general PC power level, 5e's gonna be disappointing after a while. 5e's a good system, but it doesn't do anything besides "standard swords and sorcery" well. 3.5, like PF, can accomodate a much wider range of playstyles and power levels.

[WorldAdventurer]

if you like PF's general PC power level, 5e's gonna be disappointing after a while..

What do you mean by this? Can you give me an example?

Also I do plan to learn both systems, I am not asking which system is better I am asking which system makes more sense to learn first with my background.

[Ignimortis]

What do you mean by this? Can you give me an example?

Also I do plan to learn both systems, I am not asking which system is better I am asking which system makes more sense to learn first with my background.
Both 3.5 and PF advance through various power levels - especially spellcasters, of course, but others do as well.
A 3.5/PF low-level character is vulnerable and can quite easily die from a single crit.
A 3.5/PF fighter-type double-digit level character can quite possibly lay waste to a whole army of low-level mooks with little effort.
A 3.5/PF full caster becomes a demigod in his double digits - warping reality multiple times per day.

In comparison, a 5e fighter-type character never actually becomes a one-man army (even a fighter 20 will be probably overwhelmed by, say, 500 generic goblins or orcs). A 5e full caster still can tell laws of physics to sit down and shut up, but they have less spell slots and the more powerful spells come online later, and most of them are more restrictive and not as useful as in 3.5. In exchange, low-levels are much safer and it's hard to die unless someone's determined to actually finish you off before you get healed for 1HP and get up none worse for the wear.

3.5 is basically PF without some fixes and changes - one of the stated design goals for PF was cross-compatibility, after all. If you know PF well, you can jump into a 3.5 game easily - most differences are small details, like a specific spell duration, or how combat maneuvers work, or specific class abilities. But the movement, the basic actions, the skills and so on are the same or extremely similar.
5e is a little bit different - it will be familiar, and it's easy to learn, but many things that you're (probably) used to - full attack, 5-ft step, free feats, and so on - aren't there. So the basics might take some time, but on the whole 5e is much easier to learn than 3.5.

[WorldAdventurer]

Both 3.5 and PF advance through various power levels - especially spellcasters, of course, but others do as well.
A 3.5/PF low-level character is vulnerable and can quite easily die from a single crit.
A 3.5/PF fighter-type double-digit level character can quite possibly lay waste to a whole army of low-level mooks with little effort.
A 3.5/PF full caster becomes a demigod in his double digits - warping reality multiple times per day.

In comparison, a 5e fighter-type character never actually becomes a one-man army (even a fighter 20 will be probably overwhelmed by, say, 500 generic goblins or orcs). A 5e full caster still can tell laws of physics to sit down and shut up, but they have less spell slots and the more powerful spells come online later, and most of them are more restrictive and not as useful as in 3.5. In exchange, low-levels are much safer and it's hard to die unless someone's determined to actually finish you off before you get healed for 1HP and get up none worse for the wear.

3.5 is basically PF without some fixes and changes - one of the stated design goals for PF was cross-compatibility, after all. If you know PF well, you can jump into a 3.5 game easily - most differences are small details, like a specific spell duration, or how combat maneuvers work, or specific class abilities. But the movement, the basic actions, the skills and so on are the same or extremely similar.
5e is a little bit different - it will be familiar, and it's easy to learn, but many things that you're (probably) used to - full attack, 5-ft step, free feats, and so on - aren't there. So the basics might take some time, but on the whole 5e is much easier to learn than 3.5.

Thank you very much for the detailed response.

[Kane0]

Things to consider if you're looking at going from 3.PF to 5e:

Gonna copy/paste my response from another thread on the same topic:

- Proficiency bonus is used for skill/ability checks, attacks and saving throws instead of BAB, save progressions and skill points. It's all based off Stat + Proficiency, and the numbers are lower and scale slower. HP and abilities/options are the primary differentiation between low and high levels.
- You have a saving throw type for each attribute.
- You can't have a stat higher than 20 by normal means, nor a stat higher than 30 by any means.
- Movement is not an action, and actions can happen between movement. Bonus actions are like swifts, reactions are like immediates. No action can be traded for another type. You can also make one interaction (grab a weapon, open a door, etc) per turn for free.
- You cannot delay, only ready an action.
- Only one thing provokes an AoO: Moving out of a creatures reach.
- Learn the advantage / disadvantage mechanic, it replaces 90% of fiddly +1s and +2s.
- Concentration is a thing you need to know well. Most buffs, debuffs and control need concentration, and you can concentrate on one thing at a time. You have a chance to lose concentration each time you take damage.
- All casting is 'spontaneous', though the list of spells available for you to choose from may change based on how your class handles it.
- There are two kinds of rest: short and long. There is expected to be two short rests for every long on average, which is important to maintain balance short rest classes (monk, warlock) against long rest classes (paladin, sorcerer).
- Encounter design is also different. A CR 6 enemy is a medium challenge for a level 6 party of 4, not a medium challenge for a single level 6 character. You are expected to deal with half a dozen or so medium encounters on an adventuring day, not one or two hard ones.
- Everybody can heal via hit die, which are spent during short rests.
- Dying works differently. You only die outright when you take damage equal to your max HP in one hit after reaching 0. When reduced to 0 you make saving throws, three successes stabilizes you and 3 failures you die. Taking damage while making death saves counts as one failure.
- Damage resistance, reduction and vulnerability is simplified. It's half damage, doesn't exist (as such) and double damage respectively.
- Don't use any optional rules to start with. This includes multiclassing and feats.
- The core math of the game does not expect you to get magic items by default. You can play through levels 1 to 20 without seeing a magic item at all, anything you get/give is a bonus.
- Levels 1-3 are supposed to go by very quickly, and 4-5 fairly quickly. The majority of PC time is angled to be spent in the level 6-11 range.
- Due to reduced scaling of basic numbers (skills, attacks, damage, AC) it is expected that low CR creatures remain a threat to higher level parties in significant numbers. This is intended.

Golden Rule: Thou shalt not assume to know that which shares a name
Sneak attack works differently. Protection from Evil works differently. Critical hits work differently. Do not skim over things that look familiar because they are almost all different in subtle ways that become very apparent in play.

[Grod_The_Giant]

3.5 is the same game as Pathfinder, plus or minus a few houesrules. The balance is even worse in theorycrafting, but in practical play you probably won't notice a difference. Anything from 3.5 can be dropped into a Pathfinder game with about thirty seconds of conversion, or vice-versa. If you like Pathfinder, you'll like 3.5. If you had problems with Pathfinder, you'll have the same problems with 3.5.

5e is a simplified version of 3.5/PF. It's simplified, more streamlined, and the balance is much tighter. There's much less mechanical customization and fewer options, and the overall power level skews lower. Both games feel pretty much the same in-play, though.

If you want "Pathfinder, again," 3.5 will do you. If you want "Pathfinder, but simpler," go 5e.

[Zombimode]

It also seems to me that a lot more people rollplay in D&D 3.5, but that's just my subjective experiences.

D&D 5e I've heard and seen less of than Pathfinder and 3.5. From what I am told, it is much less complicated rules system that focuses more on the roleplaying than the rollplaying compared to Pathfinder and D&D 3.5.

Unless you actually can look into other Players living rooms, I don't think you have the Information to even attempt such judgements.

From my experience, if and how players roleplay depends on those players and the group dynamic. The impact of the system can not be generalized. For instance, it is much easier to me to roleplay a 3.5 character than a Fate character because it is so much easier for me to indentify with a 3.5 character.

[Knaight]

5e. There's no particular reason to branch out from Pathfinder to 3.5; they're essentially the same system. Meanwhile 5e is just a highly similar system that sounds like it suits you a bit better judging by the repeated comments about rollplaying and the description of mechanical lightness as a good thing.

[WorldAdventurer]

Things to consider if you're looking at going from 3.PF to 5e:

Gonna copy/paste my response from another thread on the same topic:

- Proficiency bonus is used for skill/ability checks, attacks and saving throws instead of BAB, save progressions and skill points. It's all based off Stat + Proficiency, and the numbers are lower and scale slower. HP and abilities/options are the primary differentiation between low and high levels.
- You have a saving throw type for each attribute.
- You can't have a stat higher than 20 by normal means, nor a stat higher than 30 by any means.
- Movement is not an action, and actions can happen between movement. Bonus actions are like swifts, reactions are like immediates. No action can be traded for another type. You can also make one interaction (grab a weapon, open a door, etc) per turn for free.
- You cannot delay, only ready an action.
- Only one thing provokes an AoO: Moving out of a creatures reach.
- Learn the advantage / disadvantage mechanic, it replaces 90% of fiddly +1s and +2s.
- Concentration is a thing you need to know well. Most buffs, debuffs and control need concentration, and you can concentrate on one thing at a time. You have a chance to lose concentration each time you take damage.
- All casting is 'spontaneous', though the list of spells available for you to choose from may change based on how your class handles it.
- There are two kinds of rest: short and long. There is expected to be two short rests for every long on average, which is important to maintain balance short rest classes (monk, warlock) against long rest classes (paladin, sorcerer).
- Encounter design is also different. A CR 6 enemy is a medium challenge for a level 6 party of 4, not a medium challenge for a single level 6 character. You are expected to deal with half a dozen or so medium encounters on an adventuring day, not one or two hard ones.
- Everybody can heal via hit die, which are spent during short rests.
- Dying works differently. You only die outright when you take damage equal to your max HP in one hit after reaching 0. When reduced to 0 you make saving throws, three successes stabilizes you and 3 failures you die. Taking damage while making death saves counts as one failure.
- Damage resistance, reduction and vulnerability is simplified. It's half damage, doesn't exist (as such) and double damage respectively.
- Don't use any optional rules to start with. This includes multiclassing and feats.
- The core math of the game does not expect you to get magic items by default. You can play through levels 1 to 20 without seeing a magic item at all, anything you get/give is a bonus.
- Levels 1-3 are supposed to go by very quickly, and 4-5 fairly quickly. The majority of PC time is angled to be spent in the level 6-11 range.
- Due to reduced scaling of basic numbers (skills, attacks, damage, AC) it is expected that low CR creatures remain a threat to higher level parties in significant numbers. This is intended.

Golden Rule: Thou shalt not assume to know that which shares a name
Sneak attack works differently. Protection from Evil works differently. Critical hits work differently. Do not skim over things that look familiar because they are almost all different in subtle ways that become very apparent in play.

Thank you! This is an amazing response!


3.5 is the same game as Pathfinder, plus or minus a few houesrules. The balance is even worse in theorycrafting, but in practical play you probably won't notice a difference. Anything from 3.5 can be dropped into a Pathfinder game with about thirty seconds of conversion, or vice-versa. If you like Pathfinder, you'll like 3.5. If you had problems with Pathfinder, you'll have the same problems with 3.5.

5e is a simplified version of 3.5/PF. It's simplified, more streamlined, and the balance is much tighter. There's much less mechanical customization and fewer options, and the overall power level skews lower. Both games feel pretty much the same in-play, though.

If you want "Pathfinder, again," 3.5 will do you. If you want "Pathfinder, but simpler," go 5e.

I was looking more for, "Pathfinder, but different".


Unless you actually can look into other Players living rooms, I don't think you have the Information to even attempt such judgements.


I thought I made it perfectly clear that these where based on what I have seen.


5e. There's no particular reason to branch out from Pathfinder to 3.5; they're essentially the same system.

Maybe I might want to be able to play in a 3.5 game thats recruiting players that interests me, or play in a 3.5 setting that interests me like Eberron.


Meanwhile 5e is just a highly similar system that sounds like it suits you a bit better judging by the repeated comments about rollplaying and the description of mechanical lightness as a good thing.

When did I ever say that?

[shuyung]

Maybe I might want to be able to play in a 3.5 game thats recruiting players that interests me, or play in a 3.5 setting that interests me like Eberron.

To be fair, it looked like you clarified your intent in your second post in the thread as the system to learn next, not the system to play in next. There's no real "learning" you need to do for a 3.5 game, you have the grounding to just play in any 3.5 game that interests you. You may need to familiarize yourself with some different settings, but the mechanics you already know are directly translatable. 5e you would actually have to learn some system differences.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I was looking more for, "Pathfinder, but different".
Ok. Then knock yourself out and start digging into 3.5? The big changes to watch out for are that class/cross-class skills work differently, combat maneuvers vary more in terms of what sort of check you make, and that shapeshifting completely replaces your stats instead of modifying them.


Maybe I might want to be able to play in a 3.5 game thats recruiting players that interests me, or play in a 3.5 setting that interests me like Eberron.
Then... do so? You don't need our permission.


When did I ever say that?
You said "It also seems to me that a lot more people rollplay in D&D 3.5," which is typically a pretty derogative term. And that you're "someone who enjoys roleplaying over mechanics."

I wouldn't say that 5e is really more focused on roleplaying than any other edition of D&D, by the way. The traits and bonds system is a little more evocative than what the 3.5 PHB gave you, but it's still just rudimentary brainstorming, and if anything there's less of a framework for doing non-combat stuff.

[mgshamster]

Have you considered trying FATE?

[JAL_1138]

Have you considered trying FATE?

Savage Worlds could also be good if you're looking to branch out. It's less narrativist than FATE but also less crunchy than 3.PF, and supports a TON of settings and playstyles. Everything from sword-and-sorcery to Rifts and all points in between. That said, Rifts is probably at the upper end of power scaling, AFAIK; not so many godlike überwizards.

[Calthropstu]

Pathfinder is actually far more popular than 3.5. You will find more games for it online, more people to play it in your local game store and a lot more support.
The problem with going backwards to 3.5 is the fact that pf made large amounts of small fixes to the rules. As you play you will come across numerous spots where things make no sense, some bordering on absurd. Like nearly half of all monsters being immune to sneak attack or grapple rules that simply don't work right, or rolling 2 checks to move undetected.
5th is different enough that you won't feel like you're stepping into the game's idiot twin.

[Science Paladin]

I've played 3.5e and 5e, and I have to say there's two things keeping me on 3.5e.

The first, and lesser one, is the whole skill system in 3.5e, it gives far more customisation, and much more personalised characters, I feel.

The second, and main one, is the near ridiculous amount of supplement books out for 3.5e (most of which you can find as pdfs if you're naughty...). Whatever environment, monster, race, or class you're thinking of, it'll be out there somewhere. And so many variants on each class... There's even completely different magic systems in 3.5e.

So, if you want something with a lot of options, I'd go 3.5e.