OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Keltest]

I for one encourage more Blackwing punchlines. He is competing for being one of the funniest characters in the caste.

[hroþila]

Poor Belkar struggling to maintain his self-image.

[BroomGuys]

No, Giant, YOU'RE crying right now.

[Hackman]

Go Durkon! The only person capable of filling the Durkon-shaped hole in the OotS!

[factotum]

"He didn't blame me." Awww, I could almost like Belkar for that...almost. :smallsmile:

[SavageWombat]

That's kind of sweet, actually. I wonder what Durkon would have to say if he heard that somehow?

[Arkku]

Aww, now I miss Durkon… (Although I still like the Durkula storyline.)

[Giggling Ghast]

Sad comic is sad.

"He didn't blame me." Is that in reference to something specific or ....?

[GudBelkarIsGud]

Oh, the feels...

Man alive, if Durkon gets resurrected, I hope that the rest of the team repeat everything they said (except maybe about the tree punchlines) to him. This was definitely one of the more touching moments in the 1000+ strip archive.

And what's this? Yet more signs of a conscience from Belkar? Sweet!

[drazen]

Also, Roy, Odin's priest said that Durkon would bring death and destruction FOR the dwarves, not TO the dwarves (I even double-checked this in my copy of OtOoPCs when Beerdude/Blackore told his story).

You can make spinach FOR your child, but he won't necessarily end up eating it ("to.")

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Slightly spoilerish from Good Omens, which also examined thoroughly the consequences behind the ability to accurately predict the future

You start thinking: it can't be a great cosmic game of chess, it has to be just very complicated Solitaire.
― Terry Pratcheet & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens: The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch

ETA:

Sad comic is sad.

"He didn't blame me." Is that in reference to something specific or ....?

Durkon didn't blame Belkar for Durkon's death (even though Belkar does feel responsible for it).

GW

[warmachine]

I think Roy is just making lame excuses. If Odin kept quiet about the prophecy and Durkon stayed home, a different adventuring party would have attacked Xykon. The metaphysics of the OotS has drama as more important than logic. If OotS didn't exist, the cosmos would conspire to create another good group to attack Xykon. Indeed, Xykon expects good aligned adventurers to attack him.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think Roy is just making lame excuses. If Odin kept quiet about the prophecy and Durkon stayed home, a different adventuring party would have attacked Xykon. The metaphysics of the OotS has drama as more important than logic. If OotS didn't exist, the cosmos would conspire to create another good group to attack Xykon. Indeed, Xykon expects good aligned adventurers to attack him.

Xykon also handily beats those good adventurers. Odin may have had to arrange this just to put together a team that stands a chance at beating Xykon.

"That's the problem with ineffability: you can't second guess it"

GW

[Yxylu]

Sad comic is sad.

"He didn't blame me." Is that in reference to something specific or ....?

Panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html)

[Bluepaw]

"Not if what we needed... was Durkon" - got chills

"He didn't blame me" - got misty

The peanut gallery at the end - got a good giggle

Critical hit of a strip!

[b_jonas]

I think Roy is just making lame excuses. If Odin kept quiet about the prophecy and Durkon stayed home, a different adventuring party would have attacked Xykon. The metaphysics of the OotS has drama as more important than logic. If OotS didn't exist, the cosmos would conspire to create another good group to attack Xykon. Indeed, Xykon expects good aligned adventurers to attack him. OotS drama also dictates that the family with the blood oath against Xykon has to be the one that goes against him.

[hroþila]

I think Roy is just making lame excuses. If Odin kept quiet about the prophecy and Durkon stayed home, a different adventuring party would have attacked Xykon. The metaphysics of the OotS has drama as more important than logic. If OotS didn't exist, the cosmos would conspire to create another good group to attack Xykon. Indeed, Xykon expects good aligned adventurers to attack him.
The metaphysics of the OotS revolve around drama, including the fact that there are protagonists (or PCs). If you remove the Order, you're removing the protagonists and everything breaks down. At most, you'd be looking at some backstory, and all bets are off when it comes to that.

As Grey Wolf said, Xykon utterly annihilates Good adventuring parties with some frequency. Off-panel.

[Zyzzyva]

Sad comic is sad.

"He didn't blame me." Is that in reference to something specific or ....?

Belkar "caused the death of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)" Durkon. Durkon, probably correctly, didn't blame him for that ("'Twere silly o' me ta be countin' on ye ta begin with (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html)"). This, probably more than even the actual "causing" his death, is giving Belkar some unaccustomed guilt.


I think Roy is just making lame excuses. If Odin kept quiet about the prophecy and Durkon stayed home, a different adventuring party would have attacked Xykon. The metaphysics of the OotS has drama as more important than logic. If OotS didn't exist, the cosmos would conspire to create another good group to attack Xykon. Indeed, Xykon expects good aligned adventurers to attack him.

But that's ridiculous. Because of the rules of drama and whatnot, a ragtag team of dysfunctional misfits thwarts Xykon at every turn... and this is them. To misquote Carol, you need a good faith effort at assembling a team to stop him.

Edit: beaten to the punch... like, four times.

[Miraqariftsky]

Was right out crying at this. Keep up the good work, sir Giant.


Panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html)

Aye, that. Exactly.

[DaOldeWolf]

The team needs Durkon back. Sometimes because of his talents as a cleric but more importantly for his talents as a person.:smallsmile:

[aurilee]

Poor Belkar...maybe he and Durkon can grab a few drinks when this is all over.

Why must I read this comic at work? It's embarrassing to get all teary-eyed.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Durkon needs to hear this. Somehow. He's the heart of the team, and you can't function for long without that.

[PH7]

Loved the strip. A great argument for loving people not for what they are, but for who they are.

[Morquard]

I think they're starting to figure out why the prophecy happened.

Loved the punchline too :)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Poor Belkar...maybe he and Durkon can grab a few drinks when this is all over.

That would probably require some kind of planar jump, unfortunately.

GW

[Unoriginal]

I think Roy is just making lame excuses. If Odin kept quiet about the prophecy and Durkon stayed home, a different adventuring party would have attacked Xykon. The metaphysics of the OotS has drama as more important than logic. If OotS didn't exist, the cosmos would conspire to create another good group to attack Xykon. Indeed, Xykon expects good aligned adventurers to attack him.

You're looking at this backward.

A different group could have formed to stop Xykon, but then Xykon would have probably fooled them into desactivating Dorukan's protections and got his bony hands on the Gate. Roy nearly did so, and it was only Haley who stopped him, and it was only Roy going berserk over his broken sword that prevented Xykon to just kill the group and then retry with the next good guys that'd have showed up.

Remember, the rules of drama might have done things this way for those circumstances, but change the circumstances and what is the appropriate drama changes as well.

Rules of Drama don't care if it's the "adventurers stop evil lich" story, the "lich kills adventurers and win" story, or the "lich kills adventurers, think he'll win, then get betrayed by their second in command" story.

[Doug Lampert]

But that's ridiculous. Because of the rules of drama and whatnot, a ragtag team of dysfunctional misfits thwarts Xykon at every turn... and this is them. To misquote Carol, you need a good faith effort at assembling a team to stop him.

Edit: beaten to the punch... like, four times.

Yep, the Mechane doesn't get there just in time if you just sit back and do nothing, confident that you'll get there in time. The rules of drama don't give you an effort free win.

Odin not sending Durkon because he figures Mirkon Lightninghammer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0917.html) will show up instead is what Tarquin would do, and he was dramatically wrong about almost everything about this story.

[Peelee]

This whole thing with gods and soothsaying is interesting, to say the least. Odin directly knew the future, and knew to send Durkon. Hel didn't know at all that Hermod would go back on her word. And Tiamat grants the Oracle the ability to see the future for certain questions, but was blindsided by Familicide.

I hope we get to find out how it all works.

[Deepbluediver]

That's it, Roy, put those not-terrible Wisdom and Charisma scores to work making a "boost morale" check.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Belkar, don't forget Elan. He's been coming up with plenty of punchlines. Case in point...

[warmachine]

Xykon also handily beats those good adventurers. Odin may have had to arrange this just to put together a team that stands a chance at beating Xykon.

"That's the problem with ineffability: you can't second guess it"
That's virtually impossible with free willed beings. Anyone makes an unexpected decision and the chain of events to create the Xykon beating super team fails. It's like long term prediction in a massive feedback system like weather. Mind you, such an argument makes prophecy ridiculous, throwing the plotline out the window, but I'll run with it.

Now, Odin could be some hyper-intelligent being, capable of extrapolating the future and seeing how to nudge unpredictable people in ways us mere humans can never imagine, explaining prophecy and how he can create a super team. Except Odin is portrayed as a senile old man.

Unless this is the metaphysics rule that prophecies must always happen because drama throws logic out the window and divine plans to create a super team always work because drama throws logic out the window.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I hope we get to find out how it all works.

I doubt we will - it would too easily became the story of "How Odin manipulated time itself to prevent the release of the Snarl and being unseated from his position of power", which as interesting as that might be to read, is not this story.

GW

[Psyren]

The Durkon memorial service is pretty touching. Even in (un)death, he manages to rally the Order not to lose hope! :smallsmile:

Having said that, enough chit-chat guys, there are bloodsuckers that need dusting.

[Sniper]

This whole thing with gods and soothsaying is interesting, to say the least. Odin directly knew the future, and knew to send Durkon. Hel didn't know at all that Hermod would go back on her word. And Tiamat grants the Oracle the ability to see the future for certain questions, but was blindsided by Familicide.

I hope we get to find out how it all works.

Maybe there's a cost involved? Odin's "cost" was Durkon, the prophecy both got it rolling and warned that there would be trouble if Durkon returned to ensure he didn't return before he was needed to stop Xykon and Redcloak. Tiamat was doling out future prophesies like they were candy at Halloween, her "cost" was a looooooooooooooooooot of Dragons.

It's something I've just pulled out of my back pocket at 2AM but I can see it working that way. OF course I'm going to be way off here but still, it's a theory

[HandofShadows]

Roy has a great way of thinking things through. And Belkar seems to keep on growing as a person. Great page.

[Syncrogti]

New comic is up.

Great story, great art, writing good enough to get Belkar's comment about blame to draw some emotion out of me. I have been in his place, and knew someone like Durkon, and it meant the world.

[Shining Wrath]

"He didn't blame me".

Demonstrating Wisdom - the reason Durkon died was because Malack was evil, not because Belkar was impulsive.

What we're seeing in this comic was that Durkon was not only Lawful Good, but a good person. And he deserves a kinder fate.

I have a hunch that part of the reason Durkula keeps telling Durkon to shut up and fade away is that his situation is not hopeless.

[Ruck]

Nice to see some of the comments about Durkon's role holding the Order together being confirmed this strip. The OOTS is close to becoming a true team, once they get him back.

[goodpeople25]

This whole thing with gods and soothsaying is interesting, to say the least. Odin directly knew the future, and knew to send Durkon. Hel didn't know at all that Hermod would go back on her word. And Tiamat grants the Oracle the ability to see the future for certain questions, but was blindsided by Familicide.

I hope we get to find out how it all works.
Odin being Odin and Hel not being Odin seems to be the simplest explanation on that side of things. Tiamat might be that she can grant the power but doesn't have it herself (to the same extent anyway) but that's less straightforward I admit.

[hroþila]

This whole thing with gods and soothsaying is interesting, to say the least. Odin directly knew the future, and knew to send Durkon. Hel didn't know at all that Hermod would go back on her word. And Tiamat grants the Oracle the ability to see the future for certain questions, but was blindsided by Familicide.

I hope we get to find out how it all works.
It helps that this kind of thing is specifically up Odin's alley: he's a god of knowledge associated with supernatural visions. His name is etymologically related to Latin vates, which means "seer, prophet" (and also "poet"; wōd- in *Wōdanaz originally meant something like "divine-induced creative inspiration bordering on madness"). Hel and Tiamat lack this association and therefore, while they might be more perceptive than mortals, they probably can't see into the future at all (Tiamat-derived Oracular powers notwithstanding).

[Reboot]

Of course, the point Roy misses in his panel 2 speech is that Odin likely doesn't give a fig if Xykon wins, but he cares muchly over whether Redcloak (and, thus, The Dark One) wins....

[Skull the Troll]

New comic is up.

All the feels.

[137beth]

Dang. I think Belkar has the best two panels in this one.

[Ivrytwr]

Aw ... right in the feels.
Thanks <sniff> Giant!

[Chei]

Really touching to see the Order reminisce about their lost friend, and I'm glad we're seeing it recognized that it's Durkon that was vital, not just some cleric.

[zimmerwald1915]

The Durkon memorial service is pretty touching. Even in (un)death, he manages to rally the Order not to lose hope! :smallsmile:
Touching, repetitive, po-tay-to, po-tah-to.

[Jay R]

:belkar:: He didn't blame me.

Beautiful.

[Chei]

Of course, the point Roy misses in his panel 2 speech is that Odin likely doesn't give a fig if Xykon wins, but he cares muchly over whether Redcloak (and, thus, The Dark One) wins....

Yeah, I wonder if/when the Order will ever learn about that. Only Redcloak (and, briefly, Tsukiko) know about the full extent of The Plan.

[Pampukin]

Oh god! Is Belkar's clock running out? How much time does he have left? Was it even a precise profecy? Pretty much the only thing he hasnt said was that he retires tomorrow. Im so hoping the oracle of tiamat was being a jerk and meant something like "he becomes good and his formel self is dead".
Im putting my money in "he dies saving Durkon" now. Not that I wont cry like a toddler if it happens.

[Shining Wrath]

Maybe there's a cost involved? Odin's "cost" was Durkon, the prophecy both got it rolling and warned that there would be trouble if Durkon returned to ensure he didn't return before he was needed to stop Xykon and Redcloak. Tiamat was doling out future prophesies like they were candy at Halloween, her "cost" was a looooooooooooooooooot of Dragons.

It's something I've just pulled out of my back pocket at 2AM but I can see it working that way. OF course I'm going to be way off here but still, it's a theory

Per myth, Odin sacrificed an eye to gain the ability to see the future. Tiamat's not the sort to sacrifice anything other than victims begging her for mercy. This supports the idea that to see (and, perchance, guide) the future, even gods must pay a price, and Vaarsuvius was the collection agent for Tiamat's prophecies.

[Mastikator]

I actually teared up from Belkar's not so poignant remark.

[aurilee]

That would probably require some kind of planar jump, unfortunately.

GW

I know :(

But I can hope

[MelTorefas]

...Okay, the Belkar one made me tear up a little bit.

Also, dammit, I miss Durkon. :(

[Peelee]

I doubt we will - it would too easily became the story of "How Odin manipulated time itself to prevent the release of the Snarl and being unseated from his position of power", which as interesting as that might be to read, is not this story.
Yeah, you're probably right.

Maybe there's a cost involved? Odin's "cost" was Durkon, the prophecy both got it rolling and warned that there would be trouble if Durkon returned to ensure he didn't return before he was needed to stop Xykon and Redcloak. Tiamat was doling out future prophesies like they were candy at Halloween, her "cost" was a looooooooooooooooooot of Dragons.


Per myth, Odin sacrificed an eye to gain the ability to see the future. Tiamat's not the sort to sacrifice anything other than victims begging her for mercy. This supports the idea that to see (and, perchance, guide) the future, even gods must pay a price, and Vaarsuvius was the collection agent for Tiamat's prophecies.

And in light of Grey Wolf probably being right, I'm gonna headcanon this until I have reason to do otherwise.

[The Pilgrim]

I hate to quote myself. But I'm totally going to do it. From the last strip's comments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22372083&postcount=166):


If you take a look at "On the Origin of PCs", you may notice that
It is Durkon who talks Roy out of disbanding the Order after their first encounter

Basically, the Order exists because Durkon is part of it. And some way or the other I see the story in this book is heading towards making the OOTS realize how important for the group has been that quiet guy who has been usually quiet in the background.

Well played, Giant. ;)

[Onyavar]

Oh, the feels...

Man alive, if Durkon gets resurrected, I hope that the rest of the team repeat everything they said (except maybe about the tree punchlines) to him. This was definitely one of the more touching moments in the 1000+ strip archive.

And what's this? Yet more signs of a conscience from Belkar? Sweet!

Ditto, and ditto.


it would too easily became the story of "How Odin manipulated time itself to prevent the release of the Snarl and being unseated from his position of power", which as interesting as that might be to read, is not this story.

Yep. I already speculated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?535755-OOTS-1097-The-Discussion-Thread&p=22372361#post22372361)about it. I really hope that IF there is an ultimate master plan of Odin, it is not about Xykon, but about something entirely different, and that Roy never figures it out, thinking the whole prophecy only revolved around him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html).

[Quebbster]

Oh god! Is Belkar's clock running out? How much time does he have left? Was it even a precise profecy? Pretty much the only thing he hasnt said was that he retires tomorrow. Im so hoping the oracle of tiamat was being a jerk and meant something like "he becomes good and his formel self is dead".
Im putting my money in "he dies saving Durkon" now. Not that I wont cry like a toddler if it happens.

He's going to die before the end of the year. The Godsmoot was at the winter solstice, so it's currently late December in OoTS-world.
However, the Giant clarified that the Oracle follows the Southern calendar, and their New Year happens a bit later. So Belkar could, theoretically, stick around for another month or so. Not that he's guaranteed to die on New Years Eve...

[Lord Torath]

"the bird and I", Belkar, "the bird and I"! :smallamused:

Great strip, Giant! Thanks for reminding us just how important Durkon is to the Order.

600 strips ago, I was eagerly awaiting Belkar's demise*. Now I keep hoping Rich will twist the prophecy that he'll probably play straight. :smallfrown:


* He really was a horrid little cretin for a long while there.

[Anarion]

A lot of pathos in that strip. Durkon really was something special.

[Kish]

I think Roy is just making lame excuses. If Odin kept quiet about the prophecy and Durkon stayed home, a different adventuring party would have attacked Xykon. The metaphysics of the OotS has drama as more important than logic. If OotS didn't exist, the cosmos would conspire to create another good group to attack Xykon. Indeed, Xykon expects good aligned adventurers to attack him.
If your basic premise is that nothing in the comic world actually makes a difference or can, it makes little sense to care. Just handwave that "the cosmos" forced Roy to say that and he's actually thinking whatever you want him to think instead.

[Gift Jeraff]

Interesting that V is openly calling Darth V an ill-advised bargain and not a super-spell in front of people besides Blackwing and Roy.

[Jasdoif]

This whole thing with gods and soothsaying is interesting, to say the least. Odin directly knew the future, and knew to send Durkon. Hel didn't know at all that Hermod would go back on her word. And Tiamat grants the Oracle the ability to see the future for certain questions, but was blindsided by Familicide.

I hope we get to find out how it all works.I think the Oracle Uncertainty Principle* could apply here: once Odin cast/saliented/arbitrary-verb-ed and received a prophecy that Durkon was important, it was no longer possible for prophecy to determine why Durkon was important. If Durkon's role in advising Vaarsuvius on the ramifications of the IFCC deal was important, said ramifications (including familicide) would be inaccessible to prophecy, Tiamat's or otherwise.

I suspect Hel simply doesn't have access to prophecy.


* Which I may have titled just now.

[Kantaki]

That's virtually impossible with free willed beings. Anyone makes an unexpected decision and the chain of events to create the Xykon beating super team fails. It's like long term prediction in a massive feedback system like weather. Mind you, such an argument makes prophecy ridiculous, throwing the plotline out the window, but I'll run with it.

Now, Odin could be some hyper-intelligent being, capable of extrapolating the future and seeing how to nudge unpredictable people in ways us mere humans can never imagine, explaining prophecy and how he can create a super team. Except Odin is portrayed as a senile old man.

Unless this is the metaphysics rule that prophecies must always happen because drama throws logic out the window and divine plans to create a super team always work because drama throws logic out the window.

ineffability:smalltongue:

Seeing the future, prophecy and free will interact in funny ways.
Looking into the future allows you to see the outcome of decisions made under free will, allowing you to put it into a prophecy.
Of course the prophecy can influence free will once received so
the art is now to phrase the prophecy in such a way that it nudges things into the right diretion.
For example by telling a certain High Priest of Thor that one of his clerics will bring death and destruction when he returns home, resulting in said cleric's exile, allowing him to be where you need him.

Long story short, prophecy doesn't override free will, it takes it in account. ineffable

[Peelee]

I think the Oracle Uncertainty Principle could apply here: once Odin cast/saliented/arbitrary-verb-ed and received a prophecy that Durkon was important, it was no longer possible for prophecy to determine why Durkon was important. If Durkon's role in advising Vaarsuvius on the ramifications of the IFCC deal was important, said ramifications (including familicide) would be inaccessible to prophecy, Tiamat's or otherwise.

I suspect Hel simply doesn't have access to prophecy.

I like this idea too, but wouldn't that also render prophecies regarding Durkon inaccessible as well? It's not outright stated, and it's possible that this is not in fact correct, but I think we all agree that the Oracle saw Durkon returning home as a vampire, and decided to word it "posthumously" just because he's a jerk like that. Under the Oracle Uncertainty Principle, why would this be viable to be forseen where the pile of dead dragons wouldn't?

[Deepbluediver]

This whole thing with gods and soothsaying is interesting, to say the least. Odin directly knew the future, and knew to send Durkon. Hel didn't know at all that Hermod would go back on her word. And Tiamat grants the Oracle the ability to see the future for certain questions, but was blindsided by Familicide.

I hope we get to find out how it all works.
Did Odin know? Or did he guess? I'm always wary of prophecy because it leaves so much wiggle room. Add to that the fact that the gods probably have hundreds or thousands of followers vying for their attention, and the gods might not have the divine energy or focus to be as clear as they would like. If they even know at all.

I like like imagine that predicting the future is like firing an arrow. If you aim your bow at a target, then you can reasonably assume that the arrow will hit the target. It's not going to stop dead in midair, or spontaneously combust, or swerve around and strike the guy standing behind you. But the further and further out you hope to predict, the tougher it gets. Suppose now, that instead of hitting a target your trying to shoot one particular guy in the middle of a fight, he's moving around and wearing armor, which makes it tougher. And now all of a sudden the wind is blowing, so you need to compensate for that, and it's raining so your bow is damp and you need to compensate for that, and etc etc etc.

Predicting the future 20 years in advance might be like trying to shoot a particular person on a galloping horse in a forest a mile away in the middle of a tornado. For a normal human it would be impossible, while for the gods it's at least possible to get close but it's not easy.

[elros]

"He didn't blame me." Awww, I could almost like Belkar for that...almost. :smallsmile:
I can't remember when I first started reading this comic (2009?), but I was never more moved than when I read that line from Belkar. It was even more dramatic than when Durkon actually died (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html). I guess I expect Durkon to be a decent character with a selfless streak, but I do not expect Belkar to feel guilt over anything. I know Belkar felt bad when Durkon died (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0880.html), but I thought he was a heartless little bastard who could shrug that kind of thing off (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html). I never thought he could feel sorrow, regret, or appreciation for someone's forgiveness, let alone that those emotions would linger with him this long. I guess alcohol really does make you emotional (https://www.foodbeast.com/news/science-explains-alcohol-turns-you-into-an-emotional-hotmess/). Dwarven beer must be strong stuff!

[Pampukin]

He's going to die before the end of the year.

And he still doesnt know, right? Man im liking Roy less and less as the comic progresses. He is such a hypocrite preaching the dwarves.

[The MunchKING]

He's going to die before the end of the year.

And he still doesnt know, right? Man im liking Roy less and less as the comic progresses. He is such a hypocrite preaching the dwarves.

Maybe he thinks Belkar already knows? He talks to Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) like she knew about it already.

[Stabbey]

Oh god! Is Belkar's clock running out? How much time does he have left? Was it even a precise profecy? Pretty much the only thing he hasnt said was that he retires tomorrow. Im so hoping the oracle of tiamat was being a jerk and meant something like "he becomes good and his formel self is dead".
Im putting my money in "he dies saving Durkon" now. Not that I wont cry like a toddler if it happens.

Belkar had "seven weeks" 432 comics ago, and there's been a lot of traveling all over the place. I can't be bothered to try and calculate the rough number of days, but I'm sure someone here has. I think his time is running short. Dies to save Durkon seems like it would be most likely... but Rich loves to do the unexpected.

[hroþila]

I like this idea too, but wouldn't that also render prophecies regarding Durkon inaccessible as well? It's not outright stated, and it's possible that this is not in fact correct, but I think we all agree that the Oracle saw Durkon returning home as a vampire, and decided to word it "posthumously" just because he's a jerk like that. Under the Oracle Uncertainty Principle, why would this be viable to be forseen where the pile of dead dragons wouldn't?
I don't think the Oracle words prophecies like that because he's a jerk. Might be what's expected in the prophet business (and he's running a business first and foremost) to maximize his income. Might be when he gets too explicit, a druid customer kills him sooo dead a Raise Dead spell won't do.

[Peelee]

I don't think the Oracle words prophecies like that because he's a jerk. Might be what's expected in the prophet business (and he's running a business first and foremost) to maximize his income. Might be when he gets too explicit, a druid customer kills him sooo dead a Raise Dead spell won't do.

That's possible, but that he also happens to be a jerk is a bit too coincidental, then.

[Fyraltari]

I really want to hug Belkar and V right now. Wait Belkar might stab me to death for that so, only V then.
And Belkar when no one is looking.


Panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html)

Panel 5 : Thor, Odin, Loki, you better not disappoint that Dwarf.

Regarding the prophecy thing, I like to picture it as akin to memory. You remember certain things about some events but not everything about it, so Tiamat/the Oracle "remembered" that V would bargain with Fiends for UNLIMITED POWAAAAAAAH and that Durkon would die and then go home but neither that V would kill a heap of dragons and that Durkon would be a vampire. Odin may or may not had a better foresight of what is happening right now.

Also about those complaining that we only saw Odin as a senile buffon before the Godsmoot : we only saw Hel as an ineffective joke characters until the end of BritF too. Two one panels gag are not enough to make a characterization : people do not act 100% like themselves all the time. Odin most likely was just goofing around with his son in these two instances because there was (as faras he was concerned) no stakes. Now that there are important things in the balance he is serious, as simple as that.

[Hamste]

Maybe he thinks Belkar already knows? He talks to Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) like she knew about it already.

Given that Roy is hoping it is a ploy that takes more than 7 weeks it suggests that he hasn't told Belkar. After all, if Belkar was doing a ploy and knew he would die in 7 weeks there is an extremely good chance that it will take less than 7 weeks to pull off as he knows he is on the clock.

[D.One]

Did Odin know? Or did he guess? I'm always wary of prophecy because it leaves so much wiggle room. Add to that the fact that the gods probably have hundreds or thousands of followers vying for their attention, and the gods might not have the divine energy or focus to be as clear as they would like. If they even know at all.

I like like imagine that predicting the future is like firing an arrow. If you aim your bow at a target, then you can reasonably assume that the arrow will hit the target. It's not going to stop dead in midair, or spontaneously combust, or swerve around and strike the guy standing behind you. But the further and further out you hope to predict, the tougher it gets. Suppose now, that instead of hitting a target your trying to shoot one particular guy in the middle of a fight, he's moving around and wearing armor, which makes it tougher. And now all of a sudden the wind is blowing, so you need to compensate for that, and it's raining so your bow is damp and you need to compensate for that, and etc etc etc.

Predicting the future 20 years in advance might be like trying to shoot a particular person on a galloping horse in a forest a mile away in the middle of a tornado. For a normal human it would be impossible, while for the gods it's at least possible to get close but it's not easy.

If we take mythology as an example, we'll see that even the gods don't really know the future. In greek mythos, Cronus received a prophecy that his children would dethrone him, and proceeded to try to swallow his children. This made Rhea hide their youngest son, Zeus, who in turn returned later to free his brothers and sisters and... dethrone Cronus.

In a similar fashion, Balder had dreams about his own death, which prompted his mother Frigg to try to stop such fate, but she left out of the "not hurting Balder vow" just the plant from which the spear (or arrow) with which he was killed was made.

Maybe all that Odin saw/felt/perceived in the future was what he said: "that Durkon would bring death and destruction when he returned home", no extra details.

[Throknor]

Of course, the point Roy misses in his panel 2 speech is that Odin likely doesn't give a fig if Xykon wins, but he cares muchly over whether Redcloak (and, thus, The Dark One) wins....

From Roy's point of view there is zero practical difference, and nothing has been presented to him showing Redcloak as the plan creator/movitator. Redcloak appeared in his phantasm so he must recognize at some level RC isn't a random goblin cleric (probably info from Haley and O-Chul). So he may be wrong in whose plan it actually is but he does know at some level they both need to be stopped. But there has been no "point" to miss. He got into this mess to destroy Xykon so without someone actually telling him outright that Redcloak's plan is the true threat he will continue to frame in terms of stopping Xykon.

[Quebbster]

Belkar had "seven weeks" 432 comics ago, and there's been a lot of traveling all over the place. I can't be bothered to try and calculate the rough number of days, but I'm sure someone here has. I think his time is running short. Dies to save Durkon seems like it would be most likely... but Rich loves to do the unexpected.

The "seven weeks" bit is Roy's estimate. It may not be accurate since Roy presumably follows the Northern calendar and thus may be basing it on a too early New Year.

[Deepbluediver]

And he still doesnt know, right? Man im liking Roy less and less as the comic progresses. He is such a hypocrite preaching the dwarves.
When you say "he doesn't know" I assume you mean Belkar, right?
Ok, why should Roy want to tell him? Belkar is chaotic evil. Or at very least he was, and I think he's still pretty far from good. Add to that that Belkar has been fighting his own character development and hiding it from the group, I see no reason for Roy to believe that telling Belkar he only has a few weeks to live would end well. The most likely response would be for Belkar to say something like "A few weeks? Gee, I hope that's enough time to painfully slaughter everyone who ever wronged me, or thought about wronging me, or slightly annoyed me. Lets start with Elan."

Also, remember that Durkon is basically a paragon of honor- telling him "leave home and never come back" worked only because Durkon believed in following orders. There was nothing physically preventing him from attempting to return home at any time. Belkar has none of that. What's the incentive for him to go on a suicidal quest to save the world instead of (at best) spending his last days safe and warm in town, whoring and drinking? Roy is on a quest in which the fates of hundreds of millions hang in the balance- he's willing to use lots of tools at his disposal, including making sure a horrible little murder-machine is pointed at the badguys instead of anywhere else.


If we take mythology as an example, we'll see that even the gods don't really know the future. In greek mythos, Cronus received a prophecy that his children would dethrone him, and proceeded to try to swallow his children. This made Rhea hide their youngest son, Zeus, who in turn returned later to free his brothers and sisters and... dethrone Cronus.

In a similar fashion, Balder had dreams about his own death, which prompted his mother Frigg to try to stop such fate, but she left out of the "not hurting Balder vow" just the plant from which the spear (or arrow) with which he was killed was made.

Maybe all that Odin saw/felt/perceived in the future was what he said: "that Durkon would bring death and destruction when he returned home", no extra details.
Yes, exactly. Some people seem to latch on to things like "character X said Y! So it must be carved-in-stone truth!" Characters can lie, they can be wrong, they can omit important information, they can be incompetent and/or ignorant, etc. There's lots of different ways to interpret the words of oracles and gods, and how they could/should/would impact the story.

[KorvinStarmast]

Having said that, enough chit-chat guys, there are bloodsuckers that need dusting. Vampires; something like stirges on super steroids.
Roy has a great way of thinking things through. On the other hand, talky man talky too much sometimes. Tricky to find the balance.
I guess alcohol really does make you emotional (https://www.foodbeast.com/news/science-explains-alcohol-turns-you-into-an-emotional-hotmess/). Dwarven beer must be strong stuff! Aye.

[Jasdoif]

I like this idea too, but wouldn't that also render prophecies regarding Durkon inaccessible as well? It's not outright stated, and it's possible that this is not in fact correct, but I think we all agree that the Oracle saw Durkon returning home as a vampire, and decided to word it "posthumously" just because he's a jerk like that. Under the Oracle Uncertainty Principle, why would this be viable to be forseen where the pile of dead dragons wouldn't?Suppose your assumption is not in fact correct, that the Oracle doesn't receive sensory input about the subjects of all his prophecies. That "Durkon returns to his homeland after he dies" was the only information the Oracle got because it lacks significance with respect to Odin's prophecy without the "and becomes a vampire" context.

Or alternatively, that Odin's prophecy only revealed Durkon's importance to a point before Durkon died, so Odin's prophecy was out of scope for Durkon's Posthumous Prophecy.

[JumboWheat01]

That Belkar character development... I love it. Brings a tear to the eye.

[Stabbey]

The "seven weeks" bit is Roy's estimate. It may not be accurate since Roy presumably follows the Northern calendar and thus may be basing it on a too early New Year.

We can say, though, that the seven weeks has not expired yet, otherwise Roy would have commented on the oddity.

[Shining Wrath]

If prophecy requires sacrifice by the future-seeing god, perhaps Hel is simply unwilling to pay the price; or, perhaps, not having clerics gets in the way of her having anything to sacrifice.

It's also a good question how much Loki knows about Odin's prophecy. Loki strikes me as the sort who always knows more than he's supposed to know. Is Loki arguing to delay destroying the world because it's important to him to keep The Dark One from raising the status of goblins?

[Quebbster]

We can say, though, that the seven weeks has not expired yet, otherwise Roy would have commented on the oddity.

Very true. The northern new year is probably not far away though.

[schmunzel]

"He didn't blame me".

Demonstrating Wisdom - the reason Durkon died was because Malack was evil, not because Belkar was impulsive.

What we're seeing in this comic was that Durkon was not only Lawful Good, but a good person. And he deserves a kinder fate.

I have a hunch that part of the reason Durkula keeps telling Durkon to shut up and fade away is that his situation is not hopeless.

I am mortally certain that this will play a role. The high priest of Thor told Roy explicitely that Durkon is allowed to come back. On Roys question what good this knowledge might do she answered its the truth. The truth always has a use (paraphrased).
That conversation is there for a reason.

sch

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, this is why Durkon was the character I wanted on my coffee mug from Café Press.

[schmunzel]

Ditto, and ditto.



Yep. I already speculated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?535755-OOTS-1097-The-Discussion-Thread&p=22372361#post22372361)about it. I really hope that IF there is an ultimate master plan of Odin, it is not about Xykon, but about something entirely different, and that Roy never figures it out, thinking the whole prophecy only revolved around him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html).

It is without a question the secret Masterplan to facilitate Banjo's ascension to demigodhood.

When the world is then remade Banjo will wheath a proper narrativ into its fabric so Odin has some entertainment.

sch

[Deepbluediver]

It is without a question the secret Masterplan to facilitate Banjo's ascension to demigodhood.

When the world is then remade Banjo will weave a proper narrative into its fabric so Odin has some entertainment.
I am completely on board with this. Things have obviously been quite dull ever since Dionysus kicked the bucket along with the rest of the Greek Pantheon, so what this world really needs is a new God of Partying.

You can't tell me Hel would be this tightly wound if she was receiving treasure type divine-O on occasion.

[Ornithologist]

The "seven weeks" bit is Roy's estimate. It may not be accurate since Roy presumably follows the Northern calendar and thus may be basing it on a too early New Year.

There have been way to many threads to count that have gone over it.
Countdown to Belkar s Death Scene (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361715-Countdown-to-Belkar-s-Death-Scene) has the most up to date one available, which is only up to 922.

but it has been 2 in comic days since 922, so that puts Belkar at (probably) 27 of a max of 49 (possibly less, depending on how accurate Roy's Guess is.) I would even wager that because they showed up at the temple of Thor around or after midnight we should call it 28/49.

That really gives him up to 3 weeks exactly or 21 days to enjoy his next birthday cake.

[schmunzel]

I like this idea too, but wouldn't that also render prophecies regarding Durkon inaccessible as well? It's not outright stated, and it's possible that this is not in fact correct, but I think we all agree that the Oracle saw Durkon returning home as a vampire, and decided to word it "posthumously" just because he's a jerk like that. Under the Oracle Uncertainty Principle, why would this be viable to be forseen where the pile of dead dragons wouldn't?

because the Oracle uncertainty principle states, that prophecies are undetermined unless observed :)

I would go so far as to say that neither Odin nor Tiamat are all seeing.
Rule of funny put aside I tink we can agree that Tiamat probably didnt know about the dead dragons going to happen.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html)

Also the oracle peeks into the future to determine the answer to the question that was posed.
That *power* might be granted by Thiamat but not necessarily must the knowledge be Tiamat's.

So my explanation is that the dragoncide was unknown because no one ever asked about it so that it might be revealed by the oracle.

sch

[Deepbluediver]

I would go so far as to say that neither Odin nor Tiamat are all seeing.
Rule of funny put aside I tink we can agree that Tiamat probably didnt know about the dead dragons going to happen.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html)
Agreed, again. People have eyes to see with, and yet we can still trip over banana peels, get pegged with dodgeballs, bash our toes on the corner of the chair, etc. Just because you are capable of looking into potential futures doesn't necessarily mean you can't be surprised.

In literature, characters who spend to much time focusing on the possible tend to either lose touch with the present, or go mad.

[Yael]

Wow, Belkar is sure developing its character.

:durkon: is the answer!

[KishouTheBadger]

This is a nice parallel to the late Order of the Scribble.

The group of very high and powerful fighters were barely cooperating and were all around jerks to one another. When their own dwarf died, they blamed each other and broke off the fellowship. And its their lack of proper communication that has all but doomed the world so far because of their oversight on obvious flaws. A naturally reinforced gate goes down by fire, a gate protected by good will gets destroyed by a good fool, ect.

The Order of the Stick wasn't exceptionally strong at first, and had a lot of problems that made for some funny jokes (like being split up trying to rescue another, or miscommunication because of a spell made up by Dorukan which, incidentally, screwed over the heroes post-humorously). But throughout this whole arc, everyone was trying to help Durkon when they thought he was still Durkon, and still plan to help him by killing him as a sort of mercy. Even when Belkar argued against everyone, it wasn't out of his usual malice but a bit of guilt he feels responsible for and making sure things didn't spiral out of control.

From what little we know about the Scribble, they were powerful on their own, but chaotic and destructive together. The Stick is inverse, as they barely pass as solo adventurers but make one hell of a dynamic group. And even though there's the fear that Belkar will eventually die off for good, I feel the group will mourn him and use it as inspiration to get better rather than try to kill each other via blaming.


...also, I love the punchline. "Me and the bird doing double-time", hehe...

...you will be missed, Belkar. I'll enjoy your screentime for all it's worth until then.

[b_jonas]

Durkon needs to hear this. Somehow. He's the heart of the team, and you can't function for long without that. Nope. Elan is the heart of the team. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html)

[Kantaki]

Nope. Elan is the heart of the team. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html)

True.
Elan's the heart, Roy's the brain...
Durkon is more like the stuff that keeps the whole mess together.
What's it called...
The keel.:smallbiggrin:

[Unoriginal]

True.
Elan's the heart, Roy's the brain...
Durkon is more like the stuff that keeps the whole mess together.
What's it called...
The keel.:smallbiggrin:

I think it's called the blood circulation system.

[Pampukin]

When you say "he doesn't know" I assume you mean Belkar, right?
Ok, why should Roy want to tell him? Belkar is chaotic evil.
Yes I meant him. I just hate that he is being sacrificed for "the greater good" without knowing. The deva told Roy that was a very Neutral thing to do. And Hayley hasnt said anything? Just because they dont like the guy? Also, there is no reason Belkar couldnt just go whoring and murdering anyways, he is continuing on the quest because he wants to, nobody is forcing him. That alone warrants him to know the full truth imo.
Man I love how fleshed out are this characters. Props to you Giant.
PS: im struggling with english, Im smart in spanish I swear.

[Keltest]

Yes I meant him. I just hate that he is being sacrificed for "the greater good" without knowing. The deva told Roy that was a very Neutral thing to do. And Hayley hasnt said anything? Just because they dont like the guy? Also, there is no reason Belkar couldnt just go whoring and murdering anyways, he is continuing on the quest because he wants to, nobody is forcing him. That alone warrants him to know the full truth imo.
Man I love how fleshed out are this characters. Props to you Giant.
PS: im struggling with english, Im smart in spanish I swear.

Roy's comments to Belkar about dancing on his grave seem to indicate that he told Belkar at some point. Whether Belkar remembers or cares remains to be seen.

[Aka-chan]

Belkar's "...He didn't blame me" was unexpectedly poignant.

[LunarDrop]

"...He didn't blame me..."

RICH

STOP

What are you doing?! You're gonna make me cry, here! You can't just throw that at me with no warning, man, I'm misting up.
Also, I made an inhuman sound upon reading that panel and my family is concerned.

[Doorhandle]

Poor Belkar struggling to maintain his self-image.

Yep, he's slowly growing a conscience...like a tumor.

[zimmerwald1915]

I think it's called the blood circulation system.
Skeleton. It's called the skeleton. Heavens.

[Unoriginal]

Skeleton. It's called the skeleton. Heavens.

If there was only the skeleton maintainig brain and heart together, we'd be pretty boned.


Joke aside, skeleton is a nice metaphor for Durkon's role. I was about to say "bones" the first time, but I thought talking of blood system was funnier. Y'know, since it's what the vampire targeted.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

"He didn't blame me"

Totally not fighting back tears right now.

[2D8HP]

True.
Elan's the heart, Roy's the brain...
Durkon is more like the stuff that keeps the whole mess together.
What's it called...
The keel.:smallbiggrin:



Skeleton. It's called the skeleton. Heavens.


Perhaps "spine" colloquially used to mean "courage" and/or "conviction" fit Durkon's role in the OotS?


...Totally not fighting back tears right now.



...I'm misting up...


While nothing has hit me as hard as the meeting with Eric Greenhilt, more and more reading OotS brings me to tears rather than laughter.
(But I'm even more compelled to read on).

[Gift Jeraff]

:roy: Well...we've already thwarted Xykon's plans three times, right?

Why is Roy stealing credit for Miko's heroics? :smallannoyed:
EDIT: Or what they think (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) were O-Chul's heroics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html).

[zimmerwald1915]

Perhaps "spine" colloquially used to mean "courage" and/or "conviction" fit Durkon's role in the OotS?
That'll do. What are Haley, Belkar, and Vaarsuvius in this metaphor? Skin, muscle, and gut respectively? With Blackwing and Mr. Scruffy being the glands?

[danielxcutter]

Daw, this is pretty sweet.

[dtilque]

"the bird and I", Belkar, "the bird and I"! :smallamused:

You channeling V? Not that V pays attention to pronouns, but he's the type to be pedantic about grammar.



Maybe all that Odin saw/felt/perceived in the future was what he said: "that Durkon would bring death and destruction when he returned home", no extra details.

I agree that this is likely the situation. Or perhaps they have some more info on details, but definitely not the whole story. Gods, whether here or in mythology, never seem to be any smarter humans and only slightly more knowledgable.

[JumboWheat01]

True.
Elan's the heart, Roy's the brain...
Durkon is more like the stuff that keeps the whole mess together.
What's it called...
The keel.:smallbiggrin:


Perhaps "spine" colloquially used to mean "courage" and/or "conviction" fit Durkon's role in the OotS?


That'll do. What are Haley, Belkar, and Vaarsuvius in this metaphor? Skin, muscle, and gut respectively? With Blackwing and Mr. Scruffy being the glands?

I'd say Durkon's the soul of the party. Souls bind us all together, after all.

Belkar's definitely the humor of the party, since he's least likely to take things seriously. Haley's the wits, she does her best to keep herself and the party on their toes. V's... V's the indeterminate part of the party. :smallwink: The critters, considering their effect on their "masters" are definitely the moral chain of the party.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'd say Durkon's the soul of the party. Souls bind us all together, after all.

Belkar's definitely the humor of the party, since he's least likely to take things seriously. Haley's the wits, she does her best to keep herself and the party on their toes. V's... V's the indeterminate part of the party. :smallwink: The critters, considering their effect on their "masters" are definitely the moral chain of the party.
You seem to be engaging in a completely different metaphor.

[Canuck617]

This strip outlines why Durkon is my favourite character in the comic. If I could live my life 1/10th of what Durkon did, I'd be happy with how it turned out. (That's probably the feels talking, but still, exact fraction aside, it'd be nice to impact people as profoundly and low key as Durkon did.)


Yep, he's slowly growing a conscience...like a tumor.

It's NAHT A TUMUHR!

(Great song btw, worth checking out (It's Not a Tumour by Austrian Death Machine))

[Deepbluediver]

Yes I meant him. I just hate that he is being sacrificed for "the greater good" without knowing. The deva told Roy that was a very Neutral thing to do. And Hayley hasnt said anything? Just because they dont like the guy? Also, there is no reason Belkar couldnt just go whoring and murdering anyways, he is continuing on the quest because he wants to, nobody is forcing him. That alone warrants him to know the full truth imo.
Belkar is continuing the quest because it's a chance for wealth and excitement, and because he doesn't know that it's a suicide mission for him. Also, I believe the Deva told Roy that she would mark it down as "an attempt to redeem an evildoer".

For a moment, forget about what we know- the audience has known the reasons for Durkon's banishment for years already, but the party is just learning about it now. Think of this from Roy's perspective- based only on what HE knows, how do you think Roy would envision telling Belkar that the quest they are working on would lead to Belkar's imminent demise?

[keybounce]

Nope. Elan is the heart of the team. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html)

And we all know that heart is the 5th element, right?

(someone else can give a trope link ... I'm staying away ..)


:roy: Well...we've already thwarted Xykon's plans three times, right?

You mean, destroying three gates?

That's all I can think of that they've done to disrupt Xykon.

====

Without Durkon, what would have happened? Well, the rule of drama says that Roy would still be leading a family oath bound group against Xykon.

If the party had broken up in Origin, and Roy had hired a group of 3-5 adventurers in the next tavern?

1. They would not have gotten a dumb bard that destroyed the first gate.
2. Belkar would not have been around to incite blue-paladin-girl to the point that the paladins destroy the second gate
3. Hailey would not have uncovered the truth of the 3rd gate (but in fairness, that was going to be destroyed anyway by Tarkin.)

So, yea, as a result of Durkon, they kept a gate from Xykon really early on.

===

9 or more sides to this, folks. The ICC.

The ICC is committed to no one winning this fight. So what behind-the-scenes stuff would they have been able to pull off to make sure that the first gate did not go to Xykon?

===

Odin loses if:
1. Redcloack gets control of a gate, or
2. All 5 gates are destroyed.

Odin wants to ensure that neither of these happen. Lacking Durkon, would the order of the ... alt-stick have been able to control a gate and keep it from Redcloack? No. Would they have destroyed each gate found so far? Probably not.

The only winning move? Get the gate system down to one protected gate, with no loose ends / weak gates.

What will protect the last gate?

I'm thinking the MITD.

[goodpeople25]

:roy: Well...we've already thwarted Xykon's plans three times, right?

Why is Roy stealing credit for Miko's heroics? :smallannoyed:
EDIT: Or what they think (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) were O-Chul's heroics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html).
Could you elaborate? Not quite sure where you're going with that. (The edit gives me a sense of a mixed message)



You mean, destroying three gates?

That's all I can think of that they've done to disrupt Xykon.

====

Without Durkon, what would have happened? Well, the rule of drama says that Roy would still be leading a family oath bound group against Xykon.

If the party had broken up in Origin, and Roy had hired a group of 3-5 adventurers in the next tavern?

1. They would not have gotten a dumb bard that destroyed the first gate.
2. Belkar would not have been around to incite blue-paladin-girl to the point that the paladins destroy the second gate
3. Hailey would not have uncovered the truth of the 3rd gate (but in fairness, that was going to be destroyed anyway by Tarkin.)

So, yea, as a result of Durkon, they kept a gate from Xykon really early on.

===

9 or more sides to this, folks. The ICC.

The ICC is committed to no one winning this fight. So what behind-the-scenes stuff would they have been able to pull off to make sure that the first gate did not go to Xykon?

===

Odin loses if:
1. Redcloack gets control of a gate, or
2. All 5 gates are destroyed.

Odin wants to ensure that neither of these happen. Lacking Durkon, would the order of the ... alt-stick have been able to control a gate and keep it from Redcloack? No. Would they have destroyed each gate found so far? Probably not.

The only winning move? Get the gate system down to one protected gate, with no loose ends / weak gates.

What will protect the last gate?

I'm thinking the MITD.
The order of the alt stick scenario is hardly a guarantee imo as there're alot more factors involved with a lack a Durkon than just the gates going down. (Though Elan and the first gate is a decent point to keep in mind imo) Surviving, staying as a group, how they affect the battle of Azure city thus what situation Team Evil has, ect, ect.

Also related to the previous the destruction of the Azure Gate as events played out was hardly a boon for the good side.

[King539]

:belkar: : "He didn't blame me."

Ouch. Crit to the feels.

[WindStruck]

And now for my grand prediction.

Hilgya will return to the story! Because she will be needed to play a crucial roll in either the fight against Zykon or the evil Durkula.

Why will Hilgya return? Because of Durkon. Only because of him, like this latest strip details. Durkon was not just some other renegade dwarf wandering about human lands rebelling against tradition. He was in the human lands because it was his duty, and he reminded Hilgya of hers!

Mark my words, she will return! What's really good about this is we will get to see her art updated! :smallsmile:

[Gift Jeraff]

Could you elaborate? Not quite sure where you're going with that. (The edit gives me a sense of a mixed message)


The order of the alt stick scenario is hardly a guarantee imo as there're alot more factors involved with a lack a Durkon than just the gates going down. (Though Elan and the first gate is a decent point to keep in mind imo) Surviving, staying as a group, how they affect the battle of Azure city thus what situation Team Evil has, ect, ect.

Also related to the previous the destruction of the Azure Gate as events played out was hardly a boon for the good side.

The OOTS only thwarted Xykon twice (Dungeon of Dorukan and Girard's Pyramid). Miko thwarted Xykon in Azure City, although the OOTS believes it was O-Chul.

[Erys]

Here is another angle to consider:

What if Odin gave the prophecy knowing Hels gambit- and he wanted to give as many Dwarves as possible an honorable death before the world gets unmade.

Dundundun~!

[Deepbluediver]

Here is another angle to consider:

What if Odin gave the prophecy knowing Hels gambit- and he wanted to give as many Dwarves as possible an honorable death before the world gets unmade.

Dundundun~!
That sounds a like like Eugene's logic- and I'm not sure how it relates to Durkon.

[Ironsmith]

True.
Elan's the heart, Roy's the brain...
Durkon is more like the stuff that keeps the whole mess together.
What's it called...
The keel.:smallbiggrin:

Or you could go with the allegorical construct of a heart being multi-chambered, and thus, two or more people could technically do the job.

Really, though, I think at this point it's pretty clear the Order is a clear-cut case of True Companions, and that it'd be impossible to remove one of them without some functionality in the group being lost. Hell, I'm pretty sure even Belkar's going to be mourned if something happens to him (sorry, "when", not "if"). They all contribute on an intellectual level (Roy being the one that ultimately makes the judgement calls, Haley being the cunning, Elan and Durkon being different aspects of a moral compass, V being cold logic and Belkar occasionally chipping in with malicious-but-effective solutions), on a physical level (no shortage of analyses there), and an emotional level (they ALL contribute to holding the group together: Durkon's being showcased now, but in Elan's case, everyone was willing to go back for him; Haley brings strong emotional support to both Elan and Roy; V seems to be particularly influenced by Elan and Haley, and in turn, has strong ties to them both; Belkar's been very good for Roy lately, as well as supporting Elan and, in his own vitriolic way, Vaarsuvius; and as the leader, Roy's steadily developed into the type of person who takes "keep the group functioning coherently" as both his day job and a few hobbies.)


Here is another angle to consider:

What if Odin gave the prophecy knowing Hels gambit- and he wanted to give as many Dwarves as possible an honorable death before the world gets unmade.

Dundundun~!

I could see this being an aspect of it, but not the whole reason. Something to bear in mind is that, in the OotS universe (and Dungeons & Dragons in general), death isn't the end of a character's existence or even their influence on the mortal world. If the world does get unmade, it would make sense that Odin would want to make sure as few dwarves as possible died dishonorable deaths before the plug was pulled, especially when total oblivion is the other option... and even that might be done with the intent of putting them back after the whole issue gets resolved (instead of leaving it at Hel's discretion).

But that's assuming the world does get unmade. It's possible that he's intentionally bringing about honorable deaths to dwarves who would have otherwise gone to Hel, and setting events in motion to make Hel's scheme ultimately fail.

[Katrover_Swatroad]

"He didn't blame me." Awww, I could almost like Belkar for that...almost. :smallsmile:

More character development! Come to think of it, that was the turning point, wasn't it? That was when Belkar really started thinking about others besides himself (and his cat).

I think when Belkar finally dies, he won't be pure Chaotic Evil. Probably Chaotic Neutral (with Evil Tendencies).

[alwaysbebatman]

Miko thwarted Xykon in Azure City.

No. A million times no. Miko does not get credit for "thwarting" Xykon when she in fact prevented Xykon from being defeated by Soon.

[Gift Jeraff]

No. A million times no. Miko does not get credit for "thwarting" Xykon when she in fact prevented Xykon from being defeated by Soon.

The truth known to the readers doesn't matter in context to Roy's line. The Order thinks Xykon defeated or was about to defeat Soon's ghost and a living paladin made the call to destroy the Gate.

[2D8HP]

Yep, he's slowly growing a conscience...like a tumor.





It's NAHT A TUMUHR!




Well done.

Stuff like that is ultimately why I read the threads!

[goodpeople25]

The OOTS only thwarted Xykon twice (Dungeon of Dorukan and Girard's Pyramid). Miko thwarted Xykon in Azure City, although the OOTS believes it was O-Chul.
Okay. Anyway, while yeah the OOTS were pretty much just involved in the surrounding events and didn't take a direct active role with the thwarting they did still participate on the Azure city side of the battle and I don't think it's meant quite in a credit/glory sense. It's still a huge stretch to say on it's own but I think in context it works okay, as it's tied in with two others that were more direct and there is the affiliation with Azure city.

As for who did the thwarting I'll just say I disagree and confirm that that was the part that threw me off.
Edit: With your next post I guess I'll need to ask for re clarification. As the O Chul part you edited in contradicts the "what the order thinks happened" angle for me.

[FireJustice]

Lame.
LAME.
LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME.

It could be cute. It could be awesome.

But, the entire point in this comic is

A entire prophecy to make a party "to believe in themselves".

Yeah, sure.
Only Durkon, if you say so.

on with the plot already, this arc is giving me cramps

[Anymage]

I think when Belkar finally dies, he won't be pure Chaotic Evil. Probably Chaotic Neutral (with Evil Tendencies).

Less than a year of being slightly less than a humongous jerk does not negate his entire life before that point. I really don't think Belks will have a proper alignment shift.

Then again, when he does go, there are two main options. Either his soul will be lost in some way that leaves him outside the normal cycle of getting shuffled off to the outer planes, or he'll be one happy little sexy shoeless god of war in a plane where everybody works out their aggression by stabbing everybody else. If anything, the plane of "everybody stabs everybody else" (especially when he's one of the better stabbers) sounds more up his alley than the plane of "pure elemental chaos and giant frogs".

[Mandor]

Not an unexpected discussion, but well written. And I love Belkar's grudging minimum-possible-volume concession.

[Kish]

As for who did the thwarting I'll just say I disagree and confirm that that was the part that threw me off.
Edit: With your next post I guess I'll need to ask for re clarification. As the O Chul part you edited in contradicts the "what the order thinks happened" angle for me.
Soon thwarted Xykon in Azure City.

If one ignored Soon's existence and gave credit for thwarting Xykon to the one who destroyed the Gate, that would fit "Miko actually did it but the Order thinks O-Chul did."

But...that would make no sense.

[Jasdoif]

:roy: Well...we've already thwarted Xykon's plans three times, right?

Why is Roy stealing credit for Miko's heroics? :smallannoyed:
EDIT: Or what they think (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) were O-Chul's heroics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html).Maybe he's just confused (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html)?

[Deepbluediver]

Maybe he's just confused (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html)?
The OotS was at the battle, and Xykon didn't gain control of the gate. That's what really matters.

Edit: I believe they significantly bolstered the defenses. As Redcloak said, the plan was for Xykon to invis past the wall, kill some soldiers, zombify them, and open up a second front inside enemy lines. But he stepped in a big heaping pile of adventurers and that went right out the window.

[yldenfrei]

:roy: Well...we've already thwarted Xykon's plans three times, right?

Why is Roy stealing credit for Miko's heroics? :smallannoyed:
EDIT: Or what they think (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) were O-Chul's heroics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html).
Maybe he's just confused (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html)?
Or maybe, just maybe, Roy's "we" is meant to include the OotS as well as the Azurites, since they're currently working together to stop Xykon. O-chul & Lien are still at Kraagor's Tomb watching Team Evil, right? :smallconfused:

Re: the whole prophecy thing - I'm inclined to agree with Roy's view that it has already been fulfilled up to this point. Durkon's vampirification and subsequent subservience to Hel has already put into motion events that would chuck all dwarves to... well, Hel. That and physically coming back to his homeland and killing people too. Doesn't mean that he has to be successful or he won't be stopped. Just that he's the one bringing it about.

As for Odin's gambit, I'd like to think he also wanted to flush out Hel's plan, which requires Hel to be able to attend the Godsmoot in the first place. What I'm really curious about this is that it requires Odin to have kept tabs over the Order (or at the very least knew about Roy's Blood Oath towards Xykon, to ensure that they'll keep going after him) to be able to orchestrate this all.

[JoeyTheNeko]

he didn't blame me.
as someone with friends and family who have to deal with blame issues being hoisted on them unfairly that line cut pretty damn deep.

[alwaysbebatman]

Not an unexpected discussion, but well written. And I love Belkar's grudging minimum-possible-volume concession.

Less "grudging concession" more "denial-evading confession"...

[skaddix]

OOTS and the Azurites are on the same team at this point.

[Centaur]

And we all know that heart is the 5th element, right?

Nope, that would be boron.

[Laurana]

This was an absolutely brilliant strip. I especially loved the He didn't blame me part.

[Manty5]

More character development! Come to think of it, that was the turning point, wasn't it? That was when Belkar really started thinking about others besides himself (and his cat).

I think when Belkar finally dies, he won't be pure Chaotic Evil. Probably Chaotic Neutral (with Evil Tendencies).


:belkar: People don't just change who they are in an instant. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html) It doesn't work like that. It takes time, so you don't even know that you're changing. Until one day, you're just a little bit different than you used to be and you can't even tell what the hell happened.

:smallsigh: Redemption is a rare and special thing, after all. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) It is not for everyone.

Let's not forget that Rich is the only person with a vote on how Belkar ends up, and he's dropped more than a few hints toward salvation. Perhaps posthumously... but still.

[ManuelSacha]

Aaaand Belkar made me tear up a bit.
How do these stick figures manage to keep doing that? :smallconfused:

[Sinewmire]

....waiiiiit. wait.

"Bring Death and Destruction to us all". What if they mean Cleric domains?

What if the prophecy means that Durkon (as oppsed to Durkon*) will join the party as a Vampire cleric of Thor, but with the Death and Destruction domains? If there's no clerics of Hel about it might be there's been nobody in the Dwarven lands with those domains, and they are powerful.

Could that work?

[Manty5]

We had the domain discussion last strip.

[Gift Jeraff]

Maybe he's just confused (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html)?

We live inside a dream.

[Quebbster]

We had the domain discussion last strip.
I Think that particular discussion has been going on ever since it was revealed Hel was Greg's patron deity. It has come into the spotlight a lot more now that the prophecy is front and center though.

[Unoriginal]

That'll do. What are Haley, Belkar, and Vaarsuvius in this metaphor? Skin, muscle, and gut respectively? With Blackwing and Mr. Scruffy being the glands?

Nah, Beklar is the skin (easily irritated, often bruised, but still gets in the way of what could damage the rest).

[Casimir-Ivanova]

If there was only the skeleton maintainig brain and heart together, we'd be pretty boned.


Joke aside, skeleton is a nice metaphor for Durkon's role. I was about to say "bones" the first time, but I thought talking of blood system was funnier. Y'know, since it's what the vampire targeted.

Booooooooo! Boooooooo!
I need my "goddamit Barb" gif for this forum.

Also, given the amount of blood Durkon has kept in for the entire team through healing, cardiovascular system does seem quite appropriate for the dwarf.

[Goblin_Priest]

I Think that particular discussion has been going on ever since it was revealed Hel was Greg's patron deity. It has come into the spotlight a lot more now that the prophecy is front and center though.

If those are his domains (they are Nergal's, are they not? Seemed like some foreshadowing when Malack talked about it to Durkon), then it can indeed be said that, as Roy said, the prophecy is already fulfilled. For killing a bunch of Dwarves, maybe, or maybe just because he brought those domains (because otherwise, honestly, not much destruction was had). It's a somewhat ridiculously literal interpretation, but... prophecies are good for that. If Odin just wanted Durkon to be exiled, he did not "technically" lie to his cleric. He just made it sound really spooky.

But we don't really know what Durkon* is doing either. He isn't defeated yet.

[Hamste]

Nope, that would be boron.

I don't think the heart being the 5th element is that boring.

[Floret]

I don't think the heart being the 5th element is that boring.

I think this is a reference to "The Gamers 2", where the Monk in his "philosophical" rambling makes that comment.
Which, in turn, is a reference to the periodic table.

Funnily enough, it is also the name of the god of death and sleep from the German "The Dark Eye" TRPG.

[newcresty]

There is a lot of speculation about the powers of the Gods regarding what they can foresee and V's prophecy is usuallt taken as a reference point, "Why would Tiamat give tha tprophecy if it leads to the destruction of so many dragons", but we should also consider that is was the same Tiamat's oracle who gave the Ancient Black Dragon Momma the way to find V, and in that case it would be a lot easier to foresee 'if you go after V, he will kill you and everyone related to you', so i'm sticking with the thought that gods have limited power regarding prophecies, or at least Tiamat does.

That, or the oracle's power are exclusive to the question asked, as in, he can instantly see the specific event that someone is asking for, or that he wants to see (thus explaining stuff he predicts without noone asking) but it's not like he sees the whole picture, just a frame of specific event he wants to see, and imagine what it would be to check in every client whole future just in case he wipes hundred of dragons, he does check if the client is going to kill him though

[D.One]

Roy's comments to Belkar about dancing on his grave seem to indicate that he told Belkar at some point. Whether Belkar remembers or cares remains to be seen.

Can't quite remember this one. When did it happen?

[Lvl45DM!]

The story hasn't been the same without him.

[Hamste]

I think this is a reference to "The Gamers 2", where the Monk in his "philosophical" rambling makes that comment.
Which, in turn, is a reference to the periodic table.

Funnily enough, it is also the name of the god of death and sleep from the German "The Dark Eye" TRPG.

Then, I made a joke about how Boron can sound like boring if you don't emphasize the on enough and how they phrased it works if you switch boron for boring.

[Quebbster]

Can't quite remember this one. When did it happen?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0951.html
:roy: I'm going to dance on your grave, you know. [...] Maybe a nice jig? I haven't decided.

[Floret]

Then, I made a joke about how Boron can sound like boring if you don't emphasize the on enough and how they phrased it works if you switch boron for boring.

Didn't catch that as a joke. My mistake :smallwink:

[Lord Torath]

I think this is a reference to "The Gamers 2", where the Monk in his "philosophical" rambling makes that comment.
Which, in turn, is a reference to the periodic table.

Funnily enough, it is also the name of the god of death and sleep from the German "The Dark Eye" TRPG.Huh. I was thinking of The Fifth Element (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119116/), Leeloo

[Peelee]

More character development! Come to think of it, that was the turning point, wasn't it? That was when Belkar really started thinking about others besides himself (and his cat).

I think when Belkar finally dies, he won't be pure Chaotic Evil. Probably Chaotic Neutral (with Evil Tendencies).

Chaotic Evil but three-dimensional does not equate to Chaotic Neutral. Belkar was one - dimensional. He then had the vision quest. He is now three-dimensional. I fail to see him being significantly less evil.

[Hamste]

Huh. I was thinking of The Fifth Element (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119116/), Leeloo

It could also have been a Captain Planet joke where heart was paired with fire, earth, water and wind. Heart comes up as the fifth element a lot apparently.

[SilverCacaobean]

Chaotic Evil but three-dimensional does not equate to Chaotic Neutral. Belkar was one - dimensional. He then had the vision quest. He is now three-dimensional. I fail to see him being significantly less evil.

Me too, but he did bother to tell the beer dude to not blame himself. So, somewhat less evil?

[alwaysbebatman]

Chaotic Evil but three-dimensional does not equate to Chaotic Neutral. Belkar was one - dimensional. He then had the vision quest. He is now three-dimensional. I fail to see him being significantly less evil.

If he was actually, successfully following Shojo's advice, "faking it," he would be three-dimensionally evil.

But instead, he has shown flashes of empathy, duty, and regret entirely inconsistent with the person he used to be.

The halfling who says "...he didn't blame me." isn't faking it anymore.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am completely on board with this. Things have obviously been quite dull ever since Dionysus kicked the bucket along with the rest of the Greek Pantheon, so what this world really needs is a new God of Partying.
A possible role for post demise Belkar?

The only winning move? Get the gate system down to one protected gate, with no loose ends / weak gates. What will protect the last gate? I'm thinking the MITD. :mitd: What gate? :mitd:

What if Odin gave the prophecy knowing Hels gambit- and he wanted to give as many Dwarves as possible an honorable death before the world gets unmade. Yarn within Yarn.
Soon thwarted Xykon in Azure City. Yep, until Miko gooned it.

But...that would make no sense. Happens with some frequency on this forum. :smallcool:

[Zyzzyva]

If he was actually, successfully following Shojo's advice, "faking it," he would be three-dimensionally evil.

But instead, he has shown flashes of empathy, duty, and regret entirely inconsistent with the person he used to be.

The halfling who says "...he didn't blame me." isn't faking it anymore.

And the halfling who casually leaves his "options open (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1015.html)" with respect to murdering Roy for no particular reason is still pretty damn evil.

The fact that he is now capable of empathy, sometimes, doesn't make him not an evil murderous little bastard. Just a less one-dimensionally psychopathic one.

[Skull the Troll]

That's virtually impossible with free willed beings. Anyone makes an unexpected decision and the chain of events to create the Xykon beating super team fails. It's like long term prediction in a massive feedback system like weather. Mind you, such an argument makes prophecy ridiculous, throwing the plotline out the window, but I'll run with it.

Now, Odin could be some hyper-intelligent being, capable of extrapolating the future and seeing how to nudge unpredictable people in ways us mere humans can never imagine, explaining prophecy and how he can create a super team. Except Odin is portrayed as a senile old man.

Unless this is the metaphysics rule that prophecies must always happen because drama throws logic out the window and divine plans to create a super team always work because drama throws logic out the window.

Did you even read Blood Runs in the Family? Of course drama trumps logic in this comic. Of course there are forces at work to make unlikely things happen. You are trying to cram your personal experience of a logical (boring) world into a world of magic. Nothing we have read particularly leads us to believe that any of these people are even free-willed at all. Never minding situations where people get charmed, or dominated, etc, they live in a world with literal gods and monsters that control the very universe.

[thereaper]

If he was actually, successfully following Shojo's advice, "faking it," he would be three-dimensionally evil.

But instead, he has shown flashes of empathy, duty, and regret entirely inconsistent with the person he used to be.

The halfling who says "...he didn't blame me." isn't faking it anymore.

There is a lot of room between these two extremes. How about "Evil, but much less so than before"?

[Deepbluediver]

If he was actually, successfully following Shojo's advice, "faking it," he would be three-dimensionally evil.

But instead, he has shown flashes of empathy, duty, and regret entirely inconsistent with the person he used to be.

The halfling who says "...he didn't blame me." isn't faking it anymore.
I agree that Belkar is becoming less self-centered, but I don't believe that makes him not-evil yet. Even evil people can have or occasionally display good qualities, and while you might like them that doesn't make them good. *cough* Malak *unconvincing cough*

Also, he's been fighting his own developing conscience and trying to hide it from the rest of the party, so we the audience get a much broader picture of Belkar than anyone in-story, I think.

[Wowlock]

I don't believe or trust in prophecies... they cause more problems than they solve. Otherwise, every evil villain would come up with a prophecy to 'win'. All I believe is ''possible futures'' where your CHOICE decides which one becomes true. Because if a prophecy is gonna happen, no matter what, there would be no point in telling anyone or trying to prevent it. See how ridiculous it gets ?

Either way, Durkon needs to get his body back and Hel needs to get her dead-goddess ass kicked. Just throw her into Snarl for all I care.

[Peelee]

Me too, but he did bother to tell the beer dude to not blame himself. So, somewhat less evil?
Somewhat less evil, from previously incredibly evil, is still pretty damn evil. He is growing, I'll fully cop to that

If he was actually, successfully following Shojo's advice, "faking it," he would be three-dimensionally evil.

But instead, he has shown flashes of empathy, duty, and regret entirely inconsistent with the person he used to be.

I have yet to see any regret, which I consider one of the central aspects to change. It appears Soon does as well; "to admit that you were, in fact, wrong."

I don't believe or trust in prophecies... they cause more problems than they solve. Otherwise, every evil villain would come up with a prophecy to 'win'.

Wait, what? You can't just say, "I prophesied that I will conquer the world" and call it a day. Prophesies as presented in most stories are pulled from some power that is actually able to tell the future, not pulled out of someone's ass. It's foretelling, not justification.

[Quebbster]

I don't believe or trust in prophecies... they cause more problems than they solve. Otherwise, every evil villain would come up with a prophecy to 'win'. All I believe is ''possible futures'' where your CHOICE decides which one becomes true. Because if a prophecy is gonna happen, no matter what, there would be no point in telling anyone or trying to prevent it. See how ridiculous it gets ?

Either way, Durkon needs to get his body back and Hel needs to get her dead-goddess ass kicked. Just throw her into Snarl for all I care.

That's kind of the point of the prophecy as a dramatic tool. You can't just order one to suit your needs, and if you try to prevent the prophecy you got from coming true it will still come true, just in a more dramatic fashion that makes a smashing film.

That said, the Lego Movie has an interesting take on the whole prophecy concept.

[mouser9169]

Maybe there's a cost involved? Odin's "cost" was Durkon, the prophecy both got it rolling and warned that there would be trouble if Durkon returned to ensure he didn't return before he was needed to stop Xykon and Redcloak. Tiamat was doling out future prophesies like they were candy at Halloween, her "cost" was a looooooooooooooooooot of Dragons.

It's something I've just pulled out of my back pocket at 2AM but I can see it working that way. OF course I'm going to be way off here but still, it's a theory

This is sort of Odin's whole "thing".

The end of Norse mythology is Ragnarok. The giants bust in and kill everyone - gods and mortals. There is no rebirth afterward, that was Christian fan-fiction added later. Heroism in the face of a lost cause.

Odin spends all his time and energy trying to find ways to delay that event. That's why he only has one eye, for example. So for Odin to see something like this is right in his wheelhouse.



Apart from that, this ranks as one of my favorite comics of the strip. This is what stories told over a long period of time are capable of.

[Canuck617]

Well done.

Stuff like that is ultimately why I read the threads!

Thanks! Glad you found it funny.

[Ruck]

Chaotic Evil but three-dimensional does not equate to Chaotic Neutral. Belkar was one - dimensional. He then had the vision quest. He is now three-dimensional. I fail to see him being significantly less evil.

I think if your observation of Belkar was limited solely to this book you'd be hard pressed to call him evil.

[alwaysbebatman]

@many who said some variation of "okay, he's less evil, but he's still evil":

Yes, that is the case I was making: that Belkar is becoming less evil, not that he has already changed alignments. I was arguing against the idea that he hasn't gotten less evil.

I think he likely WILL change alignments before his date with the reaper. But not because he's changing quickly enough for that to make sense, really. Just because it'll be more dramatic that way. Likely some epiphany along the way will speed up the process.


I have yet to see any regret, which I consider one of the central aspects to change. It appears Soon does as well; "to admit that you were, in fact, wrong."

I'm very confused by this statement. Do you mean he hasn't shown regret for evil in general? Because everything going on with Belkar hinges on regret and survivor guilt. Specifically that Belkar died to save him. He regrets not being able to help. He regrets (and is confused by) the fact that Durkon died to save him.

[Peelee]

I think if your observation of Belkar was limited solely to this book you'd be hard pressed to call him evil.

I think if your observation of Hitler was limited solely to his wedding, you'd be hard pressed to call him evil.

Belkar has not done much evil lately, yes. He has done one whole helluva lotta evil in the past, and has not expressed regret, sorrow, or any other concern for his past actions. He also seems to still revel in the boons of evil, such as being sad that nobody reacts to his name with wailing lamentations (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1095.html). You'll forgive me if I still peg him as solidly evil. Now, he has a lot more depth than he used to, I think that's inarguable. But I don't arbitrarily equate character depth to morality on the Good/Evil axis.

I'm very confused by this statement. Do you mean he hasn't shown regret for evil in general? Because everything going on with Belkar hinges on regret and survivor guilt. Specifically that Belkar died to save him. He regrets not being able to help. He regrets (and is confused by) the fact that Durkon died to save him.
Vaarsuvius committed an act of great evil. He now acknowledges that it was wrong of him to do so, and he laments that he did it.

Belkar committed an act of great evil (pick one). He has at no point acknowledged that it was wrong of him to do so, and has never lamented that he did it. Hell, he still takes pride in it (see above link). Sure, he regrets that Durkon died trying to help him. Sure, he's sad that he couldn't help Durkon. Durkon didn't blame Belkar for being dominated by Malack. Belkar appreciates this. Belkar is still Evil. The two have no relation to each other, and I'm confused why you would try to equate the two.

I do not think Belkar will change alignment without acknowledging that he was, in fact, wrong (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html).

[Ruck]

I think if your observation of Hitler was limited solely to his wedding, you'd be hard pressed to call him evil.
The fact that you have to go here to make your point strains it to the point of breaking.


Belkar has not done much evil lately, yes.
Right, so he's being significantly less evil. Glad we agree.

[Peelee]

The fact that you have to go here to make your point strains it to the point of breaking.
I disagree. If you pay attention to a limited, specific timeline, then you can make most people seem to be anything, is the point.

ETA: Would you prefer Ted Kaczynski? Jack the Ripper? Any given person on death row? Despite what you claim, the name doesn't matter, the point is the same.

Right, so he's being significantly less evil. Glad we agree.
Not actively doing evil and being significant less evil are different things. He's not actively doing evil, yes, we agree on this. He's not significantly less evil, no, we do not agree. As far as I can tell, you think he's significantly less evil when eating dinner, or bathing, because he's not doing anything evil at the time.

ETA 2: Also, I'm amused that you can call my analogy spurious, while you effectively say, "so if I misread your comment in a specific way thatmeansyouagreewithmesoimright." Talk about the pot and kettle...

[Ruck]

I disagree. If you pay attention to a limited, specific timeline, then you can make most people seem to be anything, is the point.

ETA: Would you prefer Ted Kaczynski? Jack the Ripper? Any given person on death row? Despite what you claim, the name doesn't matter, the point is the same.
There's a huge difference between "a random point in someone's life" and "what they are doing, now, after undergoing an experience that changes them." I think you know this and I don't understand why you're pretending not to.


Not actively doing evil and being significant less evil are different things. He's not actively doing evil, yes, we agree on this. He's not significantly less evil, no, we do not agree. As far as I can tell, you think he's significantly less evil when eating dinner, or bathing, because he's not doing anything evil at the time.

ETA 2: Also, I'm amused that you can call my analogy spurious, while you effectively say, "so if I misread your comment in a specific way thenmeansyouagreewithmesoimright." Talk about the pot and kettle...
I think we are what we do, pretty much, so someone who is no longer doing evil is no longer being evil. (Which isn't to say that he still wouldn't register as Evil in the OOTS cosmos, but that's not really what we're talking about.)

Speaking of misreading, you keep changing "has been changed by an experience to the point where he's no longer regularly, or even apparently at all, committing evil acts" to "I saw a moment where he wasn't evil so he can't be evil." Again, I don't know why you're doing this.

[Peelee]

There's a huge difference between "a random point in someone's life" and "what they are doing, now, after undergoing an experience that changes them." I think you know this and I don't understand why you're pretending not to.
I'm not pretending not to, I'm just not pretending that character growth equates to anything on the Good/Evil axis. Belkar has yet to repent for any of his previous actions. Belkar has yet to do any actual Good actions. Belkar has yet to demonstrate anything that would indicate that he is not Evil anymore. He's demonstrated that he's no longer one-dimensional, which you apparently equate to non-Evil. I don't.

I think we are what we do, pretty much, so someone who is no longer doing evil is no longer being evil. (Which isn't to say that he still wouldn't register as Evil in the OOTS cosmos, but that's not really what we're talking about.)
Excuse me, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

[JumboWheat01]

Alignment discussions never end well on this forum. The Sexy, Shoe-less God of War is having some character development. Let's leave it at that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think we are what we do, pretty much, so someone who is no longer doing evil is no longer being evil.

This logic fails immediately upon even cursory examination. Does someone stop being evil in their sleep? While they have breakfast? Does someone that shoots his wife because she wasn't appropriately submissive stop being evil the moment the police wrest the gun out of their hands? How long "not doing evil" before we can consider all previous crimes null and void, especially in absence of actual regret?

It's like the joke about the guy who is really, really good at stopping smoking. Why, he stops smoking 20 times a day.

There is every indication that Belkar still enjoys causing pain, and that he will shows no compunction about killing anyone that stands in his way, or looks like they might at some point in the future stand in his way. I.e. he is still both Evil and evil.

Grey Wolf

[schmunzel]

That'll do. What are Haley, Belkar, and Vaarsuvius in this metaphor? Skin, muscle, and gut respectively? With Blackwing and Mr. Scruffy being the glands?

^Haley is quite obviously the hands while Belkar is the ar... behind.

sch

[Quebbster]

I think if your observation of Hitler was limited solely to his wedding, you'd be hard pressed to call him evil.

I don't know if I'd agree with that. Hitler got married in his bunker in Berlin, had his dog poisoned and her puppies shot, then he dictated his will and after that he and his new wife committed suicide. It was hardly a happy occasion, but considering that he just learned about Mussolini getting lynched and the Red Army was closing in on the bunker there was not much reason to rejoice.

[Psychronia]

Ow! The sneak attack on my feels is real! Durkon is the support beam that everyone needed-the support beam that was made to be one and and did what it needed to do perfectly.
Though that brings up the kinda sad implication that Durkon didn't just suffer for nothing, but suffered because he was the best at being a good and supportive person.

It's not like it wasn't obvious, but these points the Order keep nailing the points we mention in our reaction threads as they come. Good writing, I would say.

[Peelee]

I don't know if I'd agree with that. Hitler got married in his bunker in Berlin, had his dog poisoned and her puppies shot, then he dictated his will and after that he and his new wife committed suicide. It was hardly a happy occasion, but considering that he just learned about Mussolini getting lynched and the Red Army was closing in on the bunker there was not much reason to rejoice.

Huh. Today I learned.

Regardless, the meaning of the analogy is, I think, still apparent. And even if not, then Grey Wolf presents it better anyway.

[Jasdoif]

Not actively doing evil and being significant less evil are different things. He's not actively doing evil, yes, we agree on this. He's not significantly less evil, no, we do not agree.I'm gonna say that Belkar being less evil can be significant, without Belkar being significantly less evil.

[Peelee]

I'm gonna say that Belkar being less evil can be significant, without Belkar being significantly less evil.

Ya know, that seems pretty reasonable.

ETA: also, what Grey Wolf says.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm gonna say that Belkar being less evil can be significant, without Belkar being significantly less evil.

Certainly. But he can also be a more complex and nuanced character without stopping being as evil as he always was. Since we don't have a nazimeter to measure him with, we can't really tell. But lacking some kind of indication of remorse, I'm not sure that the important thing about his growing introspection is how that has changed his amount of evil.

GW

[mouser9169]

The only indication we have that Belkar may be becoming less evil is the comment between V and Haley on the influence of Mr. Scruffy. They both seem to agree that it still averages out "south of neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html)."

Why would Belkar become less Evil? He's becoming more sophisticated, which makes him far, far more dangerous in the grand scheme of things, but he's still a rotten bastard at heart. Now, he's just a rotten bastard that cares about a cat, and occasionally thinks a bit about other things as well. Granted, that's a far step forward from his "proto-brain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html)" days, but that's not an alignment issue.

Belkar is a sexy, shoeless, god of war. Perhaps after death, he will become a literal god of war. Losing his Evil status could greatly diminish his future possibilities...

[Peelee]

Belkar is a sexy, shoeless, god of war. Perhaps after death, he will become a literal god of war.
Perhaps the watch I bought in Chinatown for thirty bucks is a real Rolex.

[JumboWheat01]

Belkar is a sexy, shoeless, god of war. Perhaps after death, he will become a literal god of war. Losing his Evil status could greatly diminish his future possibilities...

I would totally worship Belkar as a halfling god of war.

[Kish]

Forum posters' opinion of Belkar aside, what was the answer when he asked who the least popular person there was?

He'd need in-universe worship to become a god.

[Jasdoif]

Since we don't have a nazimeter to measure him with, we can't really tell.I will admit, in the absence of naziometric data some fuzzy guesstimation would be involved. But I figure an unusual act of conscience being noteworthy at least puts it in conceivable range.

[Jay R]

Forum posters' opinion of Belkar aside, what was the answer when he asked who the least popular person there was?

The name of that strip (#687) is, "Actually, That's Probably You".

[8BitNinja]

I see Roy used Elder Scrolls logic when it comes to prophecy.

[Snails]

You can try to get a prophecy to order, and you may even end up with something that appears really useful like "You shall be killed by no man!" Then a girl offs you when you least expect it.

One of the clever accidents of how this story unfolded is that, in hindsight, we know that both Xykon and Redcloak were sandbagging to the extreme in the first battle. Xykon felt so comfortable taunting them exactly because they were so obviously incompetent; frittering time to trick them into touching that rune might actually work.

If Odin had sent someone more obviously competent, someone that could be a genuine threat to either Xykon or Redcloak, that would be hero would have been vaporized.

[Snails]

Why would Belkar become less Evil? He's becoming more sophisticated, which makes him far, far more dangerous in the grand scheme of things, but he's still a rotten bastard at heart. Now, he's just a rotten bastard that cares about a cat, and occasionally thinks a bit about other things as well. Granted, that's a far step forward from his "proto-brain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html)" days, but that's not an alignment issue.

Agreed. Belkar has evolved to possess a basic theory of mind that allows for the possibility that other people are thinking things about him that do not put them on the kill list. That is not exactly a rare skill among even the most viciously Eeeevil.

[alwaysbebatman]

I'm gonna say that Belkar being less evil can be significant, without Belkar being significantly less evil.

Y'know, I can live with that, too. It's not about change, it's about showing potential for change.

It's a lot like the inverse of what Vaarsuvius went through in DStP: the decisions they were making didn't make them evil, but they were leading them down a path where a crisis of alignment was possible.

Belkar has demonstrated a capacity for empathy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html), shame (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html), and regret (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1098.html). All that's missing is making the connection to all of his actions and encounters and realizing the importance of applying them consistently.

[Ironsmith]

I think it can be safely said that Belkar is becoming less evil. It's kind of hard to see, due to the fact that we have yet to enter much of a situation where he can do anything notably Good-aligned on a consistent enough scale to make him appear Neutral. He's actively contributing to the Order as something other than a pair of very nimble daggers, and he's showing emotional attachment in the case of Durkon and Mr. Scruffy. He's shown remorse for his actions before (969 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html)), he's shown a greater all-around capacity for empathy (807 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html)) and self-awareness (689 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0689.html)), and while the majority of his actions post hippie-dream-quest could be construed as selfish, there's logic pointing to doing them for other reasons as well. At the very least, the fact that he's limiting his attacks to people who are demonstrably evil and a danger to others helps point to him slowly moving down the spectrum.

[Fincher]

I'd say that Belkar is less evil. Given that the story isn't over yet, though, I think the bigger question isn't how far he's climbed the axis, if at all, but rather how far along the narrative path to redemption he is. At one time, it would have been hard to imagine Belkar having valued friends or showing guilt or kindness without some sort of magical influence. Now that Rich has established and earned these character developments, it's a smaller step to get from here to a neutral Belkar.

[Centaur]

Certainly. But he can also be a more complex and nuanced character without stopping being as evil as he always was. Since we don't have a nazimeter to measure him with, we can't really tell.

We don’t but the Deva in the HR of Celestia does (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html).

[Kardwill]

I have yet to see any regret, which I consider one of the central aspects to change. It appears Soon does as well; "to admit that you were, in fact, wrong."


We've seen him showing what looked like guilt, when he talked about Durkon's death and during the gnomette incident. Maybe even shame at one point. That's pretty close to regret, although I'll give you he never admitted it out loud.

The little guy is evolving, even if he's still in "evil with neutral tendencies" territory. Which is cool : Real change doesn't happen overnight.

[Curupira]

I see Roy used Elder Scrolls logic when it comes to prophecy.

How does prophecies work in the Elder Scrolls world? I've played Daggerfall and Morrowind, but I've never really followed the main quests on those games. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Quebbster]

Huh. Today I learned.

Regardless, the meaning of the analogy is, I think, still apparent. And even if not, then Grey Wolf presents it better anyway.

Yeah, I got the Point you were trying to make. Being a stickler for details I just had to Point out how poorly chosen that specific example was though.

[Goblin_Priest]

That's virtually impossible with free willed beings. Anyone makes an unexpected decision and the chain of events to create the Xykon beating super team fails. It's like long term prediction in a massive feedback system like weather. Mind you, such an argument makes prophecy ridiculous, throwing the plotline out the window, but I'll run with it.

Now, Odin could be some hyper-intelligent being, capable of extrapolating the future and seeing how to nudge unpredictable people in ways us mere humans can never imagine, explaining prophecy and how he can create a super team. Except Odin is portrayed as a senile old man.

Unless this is the metaphysics rule that prophecies must always happen because drama throws logic out the window and divine plans to create a super team always work because drama throws logic out the window.

There's no such thing as free will (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/06/theres-no-such-thing-as-free-will/480750/)

The future is pre-determined (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism)

Not endorsing these ideas, just pointing out that some thinkers would disagree with you. ;)

[Peelee]

We've seen him showing what looked like guilt, when he talked about Durkon's death and during the gnomette incident. Maybe even shame at one point. That's pretty close to regret, although I'll give you he never admitted it out loud.

The little guy is evolving, even if he's still in "evil with neutral tendencies" territory. Which is cool : Real change doesn't happen overnight.
Yes, Belkar feels bad that Durkon died. Evil people can have friends. Shocking.

Has he felt guilt over any of his past evil actions? Has he felt regret over any of his misdeeds? No. The only guilt or regret we see is when he's being a more 3-dimensiomal character, which has jack-all to do with being an ﹰEvil character.

ETA:
Consider the following example: In an old campaign, I had introduced two completely evil villains. Both had plans to conquer the world, and I had let the PCs know that they had known each other a century earlier. When the players discovered that they were working together, they couldn't understand it. "Why help each other?" they asked themselves, "It would make more sense to go it alone."

"Wait," said one player, "I bet that one is planning on helping the other up to a point, and then turning on him." They all agreed that this must be the reason for their alliance, and even formulated a plan to "warn" the lesser of the two evils about the other's presumed treachery. This was a solution that was arrived at by a fairly logical process, but it was completely and utterly incorrect. What the players had failed to consider was that the two villains were simply friends. They had grown up together, and trusted each other implicitly*despite having every logical reason to not trust one another at all. The fact was that the villains were letting their emotional attachment to each other override strict logic; they had made an agreement to share control of the world, and both were intending to follow through. Further, by contacting the "lesser" villain, the PCs had accidentally tipped their hand that they knew the two were working together, allowing the villains to set up an ambush for the players in a future session. By relying on logic and logic alone, the players had gravely miscalculated their foes.
Fun fact: thats written by the same guy who is writing the comic. And it sounds awfully familiar; Evil characters who are developed and 3-dimensional, who do not take every evil action just because they're Evil. But, but thing here, still absolutely Evil. That's what Belkar is turning into. Great character development so far. Lousy redemption so far.



Yeah, I got the Point you were trying to make. Being a stickler for details I just had to Point out how poorly chosen that specific example was though.
I'm glad you did, so I can not make the same mistake in the future.

[hroþila]

I mostly agree with Peelee. Belkar showed some guilt/shame over his treatment of the gnome woman (still took advantage of her, though), and while he's struggling to maintain his psychopathic self-image, at the same time he resents others for not seeing him as anything but the same old psychopath. But crucially, his guilt/shame and empathy have yet to apply to any of his past actions: they only seem to work going forward (which is understandable and consistent with how downright uncomfortable he is with reflection and with analyzing his own development). He's not shown true regret yet, he merely learned empathy is a thing - which is a colossal change for someone like him (most Evil folks do feel empathy and have people they care about), but not one that can make him anything but Evil if it isn't accompanied by deeper transformations down the line. He's certainly "less Evil", but that might not be too significant on a scale by which most Evil people are measured.

(His survivor's guilt over Durkon is a bit different, IMO)

But alignment is a funny thing to me (a non-player). It seems to be half about judgment of a character's actions and half about a character's present inclinations and about predicting how they will behave in the future given their moral outlook. Both notions overlap to a significant degree, and it works fine 90% of the time in game terms, but it's always going to break down at some point and there's always going to be grey areas (Vaarsuvius is a good example of this, I think).

[alwaysbebatman]

Yes, Belkar feels bad that Durkon died. Evil people can have friends. Shocking.


"Evil people" are not a monolith. Evil people like Belkar have gambling buddies. Dudes you are friendly with and enjoy the company of, but you'd betray at the drop of a hat and would expect them to do the same to you.

And then there are evil people who genuinely care about a few people and actively screw everybody else.

An evil person like Belkar may learn to care about a few people, and that puts them into the second category of evil by default, but that is not necessarily a stable situation. They don't have the lifetime of justifications and rationalizations for caring about some people, but not generalizing from there to avoiding harming anybody, that somebody who had always been in the second type would have.

Belkar was evil specifically because he didn't care about anybody. Now that that isn't true anymore, he is evil mainly out of habit and self-image.

All it would take for him to have a crisis of conscience at this point would be finding himself in a situation where he could kill someone (but doesn't need to,) and think "but if I kill him, who will take care of his pets?"


Has he felt guilt over any of his past evil actions? Has he felt regret over any of his misdeeds?
.

Yes. He felt shame and regret over cheating the gnome girl. He has the impulses to realize he shouldn't cause unnecessary harm, it's just a matter of reaching that epiphany that those impulses needs to be applied EVERY time.

[Zyzzyva]

All it would take for him to have a crisis of conscience at this point would be finding himself in a situation where he could kill someone (but doesn't need to,) and think "but if I kill him, who will take care of his pets?"

I'm not sure I agree that that would be enough to push him up to Neutral, but in any case that argument is moot right now, because he has not had such a crisis of conscience yet. To quote* one of the author commentaries, "he's not redeemed, just redeemable. At least as redeemable as a coupon."

*from memory, so probably not quite right.

[Quebbster]

"Evil people" are not a monolith. Evil people like Belkar have gambling buddies. Dudes you are friendly with and enjoy the company of, but you'd betray at the drop of a hat and would expect them to do the same to you.

And then there are evil people who genuinely care about a few people and actively screw everybody else.

An evil person like Belkar may learn to care about a few people, and that puts them into the second category of evil by default, but that is not necessarily a stable situation. They don't have the lifetime of justifications and rationalizations for caring about some people, but not generalizing from there to avoiding harming anybody, that somebody who had always been in the second type would have.

Belkar was evil specifically because he didn't care about anybody. Now that that isn't true anymore, he is evil mainly out of habit and self-image.

All it would take for him to have a crisis of conscience at this point would be finding himself in a situation where he could kill someone (but doesn't need to,) and think "but if I kill him, who will take care of his pets?"
Pretty much this whole paragraph is summarized with the fate of Buggy Lou. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0685.html)

[alwaysbebatman]

I'm not sure I agree that that would be enough to push him up to Neutral, but in any case that argument is moot right now, because he has not had such a crisis of conscience yet. To quote* one of the author commentaries, "he's not redeemed, just redeemable. At least as redeemable as a coupon."

*from memory, so probably not quite right.

How is it not NOT evil to realize that doing harm should be avoided?

But, yes: he hasn't changed alignment, he has rapidly changed along multiple axes leaving him primed to possibly change alignments under the right circumstances.

Since this is a story and things don't happen on-panel for no reason, doesn't it seem likely that those circumstances are going to arise?

Will he make the right choice in the moment of crisis? This comic is filled with characters who didn't. But Belkar's never needed to be dishonest with himself in the past, so I'm not sure he'd be able to pick up that knack.

[Waguli]

Ow! The sneak attack on my feels is real! Durkon is the support beam that everyone needed-the support beam that was made to be one and and did what it needed to do perfectly.
Though that brings up the kinda sad implication that Durkon didn't just suffer for nothing, but suffered because he was the best at being a good and supportive person..
It'd really be cool if Durkon, assuming he returns as Durkon, might not be hinted at attaining some kind of Exalted feats. There is being "good" and then there is being "Good" - literally dedicating every moment of your being to the support and comfort of others.

[Kish]

Relevant to Belkar morality questions, I think:

For Belkar, Durkon's death takes on a meaning that it never would have before Mr. Scruffy's arrival in his life. We saw him finally grasp the beginning of empathy in the arena, but here he learns for the first time how far he truly has to go. Belkar may have heard about the idea of heroic sacrifices, but that's not really what this was. This was simply caring more about other people than yourself. Durkon's only thoughts as he is murdered are to try to keep his friends safe--even Belkar, who has never been anything but rude to him. This breaks through Belkar's cynicism; it's one thing to recognize that other people have a right to live, and another to realize that maybe you don't. And then live anyway.

[8BitNinja]

I would totally worship Belkar as a halfling god of war.

I think you would be the only one.

[Ironsmith]

I think you would be the only one.

Hey, if one's enough for Banjo...

[wumpus]

OotS drama also dictates that the family with the blood oath against Xykon has to be the one that goes against him.

Anybody waiting to discover what he was up to would be so far behind to not catch him [not quite true, the plot adjusts to fit]. Only somebody trying to kill Xykon (or perhaps Redcloak) would be able to keep up.

[Jasdoif]

How does prophecies work in the Elder Scrolls world? I've played Daggerfall and Morrowind, but I've never really followed the main quests on those games.Without getting into all the "intentionally mysterious self-contradiction is mysterious" and deep setting aspects....The most well-known sources of prophecy in the Elder Scrolls setting are...the Elder Scrolls. Elder Scrolls are of unknown origin, possibly because being "fragments of creation from outside time itself" doesn't make any sense.

In the context of divinations, Elder Scroll archive a lot of knowledge about key events, both future and past, which can be gleaned in small fragments. Knowledge of future events relates to a possible version of the future, and in fact different prophets could see entirely different versions of the same version with the same accuracy. Knowledge of past events is static.

These events are associated with a Hero, a mortal who has the special quality of controlling their own destiny in defiance of prophecy (and other "look I'm the Player Character" qualities). As such, any prophecy could potentially be altered/averted by the Hero associated with its event. The whole setup of Morrowind is basically the Emperor saying (http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Decoded_package) "hey, this random person fits the description of the Hero of this prophecy; go get them in a position to swing things in a direction that doesn't suck".

[Keltest]

Without getting into all the "intentionally mysterious self-contradiction is mysterious" and deep setting aspects....The most well-known sources of prophecy in the Elder Scrolls setting are...the Elder Scrolls. Elder Scrolls are of unknown origin, possibly because being "fragments of creation from outside time itself" doesn't make any sense.

In the context of divinations, Elder Scroll archive a lot of knowledge about key events, both future and past, which can be gleaned in small fragments. Knowledge of future events relates to a possible version of the future, and in fact different prophets could see entirely different versions of the same version with the same accuracy. Knowledge of past events is static.

These events are associated with a Hero, a mortal who has the special quality of controlling their own destiny in defiance of prophecy (and other "look I'm the Player Character" qualities). As such, any prophecy could potentially be altered/averted by the Hero associated with its event. The whole setup of Morrowind is basically the Emperor saying (http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Decoded_package) "hey, this random person fits the description of the Hero of this prophecy; go get them in a position to swing things in a direction that doesn't suck".

Adding to this, reading the Elder Scrolls themselves is extremely confusing and hazardous. Its guaranteed to cause blindness of increasing length (up to being permanent), and theres no guarantee that any given reading will actually give any knowledge that can be acted upon. On the other hand, you can occasionally luck out, and get such helpful things as a literal map showing you where the Plot Device is, and other useful information.

[georgie_leech]

Adding to this, reading the Elder Scrolls themselves is extremely confusing and hazardous. Its guaranteed to cause blindness of increasing length (up to being permanent), and theres no guarantee that any given reading will actually give any knowledge that can be acted upon. On the other hand, you can occasionally luck out, and get such helpful things as a literal map showing you where the Plot Device is, and other useful information.

Unless you have no training before reading them, in which case you just see some funny lines and they may as well be random scribbles on parchment.

[Curupira]

Jasdoif, Keltest, and georgie_leech: thanks for taking the time to explain!

Now that I get the "minority-report" nature of Elder Scrolls prophecies, I agree with previous posters that it's not likely that Stickverse prophecies work like that. Going by how previous ones (by the Oracle) stood up, it seems that Odin's prophecy would be fulfilled, one way or the other.

(A side note: the Elder Scrolls method seems a very clever way to introduce prophecies in a game that allows you to do whatever you want).

[schmunzel]

Certainly. But he can also be a more complex and nuanced character without stopping being as evil as he always was. Since we don't have a nazimeter to measure him with, we can't really tell. But lacking some kind of indication of remorse, I'm not sure that the important thing about his growing introspection is how that has changed his amount of evil.

GW

Wouldnt you say that his character growth might be the foundation for being able to show remorse?

sch

[Peelee]

Wouldnt you say that his character growth might be the foundation for being able to show remorse?

sch

It might be. And I hope it is. But it ain't happening yet.

[georgie_leech]

It might be. And I hope it is. But it ain't happening yet.

Mm, while I love the direction Belkar is turning, I wouldn't expect him to actually start moving down that road until the last book. First he had to learn to change. Then he had to grow a sense of empathy for the things he cares about that don't involve violence. Now he seems to be learning to apply that empathy to things that aren't animals nor of immediate benefit to him.

Then he can start being introspective about things with this new-found conscience and maybe beimg sort of redeemed.

[8BitNinja]

Hey, if one's enough for Banjo...

Then we need to make a tall lawful good god of peace as a rival.

I think a lot of those already exist. So you're good.

[Goblin_Priest]

Mm, while I love the direction Belkar is turning, I wouldn't expect him to actually start moving down that road until the last book. First he had to learn to change. Then he had to grow a sense of empathy for the things he cares about that don't involve violence. Now he seems to be learning to apply that empathy to things that aren't animals nor of immediate benefit to him.

Then he can start being introspective about things with this new-found conscience and maybe beimg sort of redeemed.

Or, someone could just give him a headband of inspired wisdom. Since, you know, the effect Owl's Wisdom had on him that once. ;)

[Ironsmith]

Or, someone could just give him a headband of inspired wisdom. Since, you know, the effect Owl's Wisdom had on him that once. ;)

About that... Belkar seems to be getting more self-aware, too, and one of the mechanics of Dungeons & Dragons is the ability to up your ability scores a small fragment at certain levels. Given that the most evident portion of Belkar's development came at around a time when he had it rubbed in his face just how bad his Wisdom score was, and a growing need for a better Will save, is it at all possible that Belkar might bring himself up to the Owl's Wisdom point of his own volition?

And if that's the direction Rich is going with this... goddamn that is forethought.

[BriarHobbit]

I liked this a lot. It highlighted Durkon's importance to the group in a series of recollections. There even was some tree-related humor as well.

[Manty5]

I think that I shall never see;

A recurring gag as insidious as the trees.

[Nighthawk4]

The word "criteria" is plural.

The singular form is "criterion" :elan:

[Kardwill]

Belkar was evil specifically because he didn't care about anybody. Now that that isn't true anymore, he is evil mainly out of habit and self-image.

Even then, it's mostly appearances, lately. He talks a lot and plays the "tough guy" attitude, sure, and he's still a jerk, but I have trouble remembering real evil acts since the pyramid. At least not acts the others don't practice regularly, like being a smartass while monsterslaying.

Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe he didn't have many opportunities, and it can be argued that his desert shenigans were not very long ago, timeline-speaking. But there's been a lot less "Hey, Belkar just horribly murdered someone in a funny way" jokes lately.

Not saying he's non-evil, sure, but... The Evil-o-metter is certainly getting lower signals

[factotum]

Even then, it's mostly appearances, lately. He talks a lot and plays the "tough guy" attitude, sure, and he's still a jerk, but I have trouble remembering real evil acts since the pyramid.

The pyramid was, what, maybe a week ago in comic time? How much opportunity has Belkar had to perform evil acts over that time period?

I think the Buggy Lou encounter shows Belkar's true colours. He was also in the position of caring about his cat at that point, just as he is now, but he was perfectly happy to let Buggy Lou enslave a load of innocent people from the caravan he was riding along with. It wasn't until a direct threat was made to Mr. Scruffy that he killed Buggy. So, he's at least advanced to a position where he's capable of caring about some things, but that still leaves 99.9999% of the world's population he doesn't care about and will happily kill if asked.

[Corian]

I think the Buggy Lou encounter shows Belkar's true colours.

But (many people agree) the arena was a turning point, and the Buggy Lou encounter was prior to that.

That said, the arena encounter involved unleashing a dinosaur on not-innocent guards, not sure where that falls on the alignment meter. I think the usual D&D-specific "killing evil people and their minions is goodish" ethos can apply, though.

Oh, and great episode.

[Quebbster]

The pyramid was, what, maybe a week ago in comic time?

Probably a bit more than a week but not quite two. The Mechane was supposed to get to the north pole in ten days, and then there was the Godsmoot detour. It hasn't been a fortnight since Roy got impaled by Tarquin though. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1077.html)

[Peelee]

Even then, it's mostly appearances, lately. He talks a lot and plays the "tough guy" attitude, sure, and he's still a jerk, but I have trouble remembering real evil acts since the pyramid. At least not acts the others don't practice regularly, like being a smartass while monsterslaying.

Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe he didn't have many opportunities, and it can be argued that his desert shenigans were not very long ago, timeline-speaking. But there's been a lot less "Hey, Belkar just horribly murdered someone in a funny way" jokes lately.



And then I'll just stab him in the heart. The vampire, not Roy. Though, you know, options open.

Climbing the mountain to the godsmoot, all alone, nobody around to have false bravado for. Still contemplates stabbing Roy in the heart.

I'm gonna stuck with "less one-dimensional, no less evil."

[Keltest]

Climbing the mountain to the godsmoot, all alone, nobody around to have false bravado for. Still contemplates stabbing Roy in the heart.

I'm gonna stuck with "less one-dimensional, no less evil."
What, you think Belkar cant have false bravado for his own sake? He's talking to himself out loud while climbing a mountain, he's obviously at least partially talking for the sake of hearing his own voice.

[Peelee]

What, you think Belkar cant have false bravado for his own sake? He's talking to himself out loud while climbing a mountain, he's obviously at least partially talking for the sake of hearing his own voice.

I think if he does, then at the very least he is resistant to changing, which isn't a,point in his favor.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What, you think Belkar cant have false bravado for his own sake?

When your argument relies on marking something the character says against your hypothesis as false, you have a weak argument. In fact, it sounds worryingly circular "I have decided he is less evil, therefore that must have been false bravado, therefore he is less evil".

Belkar still enjoys mass murderer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1053.html), and delights on the chance to kill people after the arena. "He felt a bit bad about cheating someone... whilst still taking advantage of her, just not getting a free lunch (and possibly some nookie) out of it" is not Neutral action.

I think what I dislike about this whole hypothesis is the underlying assumption that the only way his character can be developed is towards becoming less evil. That is simply not true. Rich may be planning to make him Neutral by the time of his death, but he could also be planning to show off his writing chops by pulling a reverse Miko: showing a heroic Evil character. The second seems far more plausible to me.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

I don't see where you guys disagree on the central point: Belkar can be less Evil while still being very Evil. Personally, I think it's obvious both that Belkar is changing and that he's struggling with how that affects his self-image (see his interactions with Ian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0786.html) and Mr. Scruffy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html)).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't see where you guys disagree on the central point: Belkar can be less Evil while still being very Evil. Personally, I think it's obvious both that Belkar is changing and that he's struggling with how that affects his self-image (see his interactions with Ian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0786.html) and Mr. Scruffy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html)).

AFAICT, we disagree on the "can be" vs "is" of "Belkar can be/is less Evil while still being very Evil"

GW

[Goblin_Priest]

About that... Belkar seems to be getting more self-aware, too, and one of the mechanics of Dungeons & Dragons is the ability to up your ability scores a small fragment at certain levels. Given that the most evident portion of Belkar's development came at around a time when he had it rubbed in his face just how bad his Wisdom score was, and a growing need for a better Will save, is it at all possible that Belkar might bring himself up to the Owl's Wisdom point of his own volition?

And if that's the direction Rich is going with this... goddamn that is forethought.

Belkar's character growth, 1 wisdom point per 4 levels at a time!

:smallbiggrin:

[D.One]

Belkar's character growth, 1 wisdom point per 4 levels at a time!

:smallbiggrin:

Definitive proof of that should be he being able to cast 1st level ranger spells...

:roy:"Belkar acting like a Ranger! We're doomed!"

[alwaysbebatman]

I think what I dislike about this whole hypothesis is the underlying assumption that the only way his character can be developed is towards becoming less evil. That is simply not true. Rich may be planning to make him Neutral by the time of his death, but he could also be planning to show off his writing chops by pulling a reverse Miko: showing a heroic Evil character. The second seems far more plausible to me.

Grey Wolf

So... are you saying that Miko's alignment didn't change either?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So... are you saying that Miko's alignment didn't change either?

No. I am also not saying the opposite. I am saying that Miko was conceived as "a Good antagonist".

GW

[Keltest]

When your argument relies on marking something the character says against your hypothesis as false, you have a weak argument.

I suppose you believe that Belkar actually dislikes gnomish food (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html) as well then too.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I suppose you believe that Belkar actually dislikes gnomish food (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html) as well then too.

No, because both Belkar and the strip title told me otherwise. There is no indication (beyond that established by your own preconception) that Belkar was similarly downplaying his actual feelings when he considered stabbing Roy.

Grey Wolf

[alwaysbebatman]

There's no indication that he's joking? Because the only "indication" needed is "knowing what jokes sound like."

Miko was conceived as a Paladin set up for a fall. By both her character flaws and her situation.

Belkar is conceived as an evil protagonists: he already IS that. But what is he developing into? All foreshadowing seems to point towards evil character who ends up having a change of heart, likely sacrificing himself for his friends and/or the world.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There's no indication that he's joking? Because the only "indication" needed is "knowing what jokes sound like."
I fail to see why it being a joke requires him to not actually mean what he says. It's funny because he is perfectly willing to take "stabbing Roy" as an option on how to take out his frustrations.


Belkar is conceived as an evil protagonists: he already IS that. But what is he developing into? All foreshadowing seems to point towards evil character who ends up having a change of heart, likely sacrificing himself for his friends and/or the world.

There is a difference between being an Evil protagonist and being a heroic Evil character. Therefore, "[a]ll foreshadowing" does not point towards a change of heart.

GW

[alwaysbebatman]

I fail to see why it being a joke requires him to not actually mean what he says. It's funny because he is perfectly willing to take "stabbing Roy" as an option on how to take out his frustrations.



There is a difference between being an Evil protagonist and being a heroic Evil character. Therefore, "[a]ll foreshadowing" does not point towards a change of heart.

GW

Okay.... Tell me about that. What does a "heroic evil" character do, exactly? What makes them "heroic," but still evil?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Okay.... Tell me about that. What does a "heroic evil" character do, exactly? What makes them "heroic," but still evil?

Why, so we can engage on a useless discussion of how you define Good? No, thanks.

I'm guessing you are about to argue that saving the world is inherently Good and something only a Good person would do. That is not true (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1005.html). But it is also something I have no desire to discuss, especially with someone who in the current topic stands in the "the only way this story can possibly go is the one I like" camp.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

There's no indication that he's joking? Because the only "indication" needed is "knowing what jokes sound like."
Excuse me? Setting aside the obnoxiousness of "you're wrong because I say so."

Do you think Haley or Durkon or Elan would have said the same "options open" line after saying they were going to stab the vampire, not Roy?

If yes, I'll be putting you on ignore as having demonstrated willingness to assert the absurd rather than admit you're wrong. If no:

Why exactly would Belkar say that line and not any of the other three people I mentioned? Does it have anything to do with their alignments?

[Kardwill]

Climbing the mountain to the godsmoot, all alone, nobody around to have false bravado for. Still contemplates stabbing Roy in the heart.

I put that in the tough talk department. There was one person to have false bravado for : himself. I saw this line as a way to keep his self image as "remorseless tough guy", just as he continually deny his newfound epathy. But otherwise, since Durkon's death, in action, he's been... Well, not "exemplar citizen", but very un-belkar-y. The most dubious stuff he did (lie to get the amulet for a discount, infiltrate the godsmoot) has been things that Haley would have done if she saw a good reason to. And Belkar DID have good reason, since they were related to fighting back the creature that took over his friend.
He wasn't even particularly cruel or bloodthirsty (well, no more than your average dungeon crawler, anyway) during the combat against the giants, which would have been the perfect occasion to show his darker side without blowing his cover.

Sure, it's only been 2 weeks, but oldschool Belkar would have found an occasion to murder someone on the Mechane or in Gnometown and make a punchline about it. He didn't.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He wasn't even particularly cruel or bloodthirsty (well, no more than your average dungeon crawler, anyway) during the combat against the giants

Is this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1054.html) (sixth & eleventh panels) the face that is "no more cruel or bloodthirsty" than your average dungeon crawler?

GW