More inclusive Outlands

[Millstone85]

So, the True Neutral Outer Plane of Concordant Opposition.

https://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/3/30280/1479160-planescape_the_outlands.png

The DMG has a paragraph that got me thinking.
Given the fact that you can ride a horse in the Outlands from a heaven to a hell, a planar-themed campaign can be set there without the need for planar travel. The Outlands is the closest the Outer Planes come to being like a world on the Material Plane.

Riding from a heaven to a hell through the Outlands would in fact involve two planar portals. But I get what they are saying. The gate-town of Excelsior is pretty much Mount Celestia already, or at least a taste of it, and the same goes for Ribcage and the Nine Hells. Maybe there is even a planar overlap that extends beyond the town's portal.

First, I think it would be fun to go full Nobilis with this. The Outlands aren't just a "microcosm" of the Outer Planes, as the DMG calls them earlier, but the wheel itself perceived as a world. There are regions there that can be fully embraced from an aerial view, but will transform as you get closer, until it seems impossible for this space to have been a flat land on a disk. The "gate-towns" wouldn't be built around portals per say, but would serve as landmarks to navigate this odd transition. Go north-east from Sylvania and soon it will seem Arborea is all that exists. But go north-east from somewhere else and you might actually reach the edge of the Outlands.

Secondly, why just the Outer Planes? In between the Spire and the ring of the gate-towns, there could be regions of elemental power and more. Looking at the Great Wheel, the scenery could even change in thematic ways.

https://i.imgur.com/rQIoBVc.png

The sky above the gears was heavy with smoke, and soon a rain of ashes would fall. Some would say it completed the "industrial" aspect of the place, but in truth the chimneys were not to blame.

As you travel through places of fire and molten earth, everything progressively becomes tainted with evil, until you are in Gehenna.

Your journey took you from the swamp of a hag to a realm of mud. Then the oozes became mimics and chaos beasts, before the terrain itself started trading the fluidity of mud for one encompassing all forms.

The cold had been harsh, the snow treacherous, but now it was as if the warmth in your heart and in that of your companions had become less of a metaphor, as if the ice itself had become more glistening, and as if a home you didn't know you had was calling to you just some distance ahead.

Do you think that would make for an interesting setting?

Edit: Better picture.

[NecroDancer]

So, the True Neutral Outer Plane of Concordant Opposition.

https://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/3/30280/1479160-planescape_the_outlands.png

The DMG has a paragraph that got me thinking.

Riding from a heaven to a hell through the Outlands would in fact involve two planar portals. But I get what they are saying. The gate-town of Excelsior is pretty much Mount Celestia already, or at least a taste of it, and the same goes for Ribcage and the Nine Hells. Maybe there is even a planar overlap that extends beyond the town's portal.

First, I think it would be fun to go full Nobilis with this. The Outlands aren't just a "microcosm" of the Outer Planes, as the DMG calls them earlier, but the wheel itself perceived as a world. There are regions there that can be fully embraced from an aerial view, but will transform as you get closer, until it seems impossible for this space to have been a flat land on a disk. The "gate-towns" wouldn't be built around portals per say, but would serve as landmarks to navigate this odd transition. Go north-east from Sylvania and soon it will seem Arborea is all that exists. But go north-east from somewhere else and you might actually reach the edge of the Outlands.

Secondly, why just the Outer Planes? In between the Spire and the ring of the gate-towns, there could be regions of elemental power and more. Looking at the Great Wheel, the scenery could even change in thematic ways.

https://i.imgur.com/k3Wvroc.png

The sky above the gears was heavy with smoke, and soon a rain of ashes would fall. Some would say it completed the "industrial" aspect of the place, but in truth the chimneys were not to blame.

As you travel through places of fire and molten earth, everything progressively becomes tainted with evil, until you are in Gehenna.

Your journey took you from the swamp of a hag to a realm of mud. Then the oozes became mimics and chaos beasts, before the terrain itself started trading the fluidity of mud for one encompassing all forms.

The cold had been harsh, the snow treacherous, but now it was as if the warmth in your heart and in that of your companions had become less of a metaphor, as if the ice itself had become more glistening, and as if a home you didn't know you had was calling to you just some distance ahead.

Do you think that would make for an interesting setting?

This is great! It gives some nice flavor for the Outer Planes.

There is also a fortress of evil knights in the Outlands I think.

[Naanomi]

I've seen something like this before, switching out the Spire for the 'World Tree' with the outlands->outer plane surrounding it... and the elemental planes as 'moons' rotating around the whole thing (and making the seasons). I've also done a world where the elemental planes surrounded the Prime (the south is hot because it turns into the plane of Fire when you go far enough!); and the Outerplanes were 'above' (in the Stars) and 'below' (deep Underground) it

Your model works as well, as long is there is enough 'Prime-like' Outlands between the Outer and Inner Planes-like-zones... though of course some of the cosmology would need to change (like how the Afterlife works)

[Millstone85]

Your model works as well, as long is there is enough 'Prime-like' Outlands between the Outer and Inner Planes-like-zones...Both the Inner Planes and the Outer Planes have regions that ressemble the Material, before you start delving into raw elemental stuff or the truly abstract. I see these revised Outlands as being entirely composed of such regions, except near the Spire.

Because near the Spire would be the region corresponding to the Material Plane itself, as well as the regions corresponding to the Material's two echoes. The recent discussion on eladrin has comforted me in my opinion that the Feywild should be on the side of the Spire facing Arborea.


though of course some of the cosmology would need to change (like how the Afterlife works)What is the conflict with how the afterlife works in the Great Wheel?

[Naanomi]

What is the conflict with how the afterlife works in the Great Wheel?
Well... unless the setting has 'the living exist alongside the dead' as an assumption (and it can, but would hardly be standard); something will need to adjust the fates of the neutral dead (and you will likely need to relocate several neutral Divine Realms depending on what Gods you are using)

You may also have to figure out if the neutral exemplar race (rilmani) still exists; and if so where and how their relationship with the mortal races is

[Millstone85]

Well... unless the setting has 'the living exist alongside the dead' as an assumption (and it can, but would hardly be standard); something will need to adjust the fates of the neutral deadThe Outlands are already a setting where living planar travellers walk among the dead. Making it a hub for the whole Great Wheel, instead of just the Outer Planes, would indeed bring more of them, but I don't think it is such a big change.

Or is it that it now looks too easy for the dead to return among the living? I see the inner and central regions as having their own gate-towns, which I do suppose would be under divine watch or present some other challenge.

[Naanomi]

The Outlands are already a setting where living planar travellers walk among the dead. Making it a hub for the whole Great Wheel, instead of just the Outer Planes, would indeed bring more of them, but I don't think it is such a big change.

Or is it that it now looks too easy for the dead to return among the living? I see the inner and central regions as having their own gate-towns, which I do suppose would be under divine watch or present some other challenge.
I'm saying that if the Outlands replaces the Prime... and I am a neutral guy without a patron deity... and I die... does my soul stand up out of my body as a petitioner and just keep right on going, since the Outlands is also my afterlife?

It's not an insurmountable problem, but you will have to figure out where the traditional 'outlands' stuff happens if it is also functionally the Prime in your cosmology.

[dejarnjc]

I really enjoy this idea. My only question would be how this would affect the other relams in the Outlands like Tir Na Nog, Dwarven Mountain, the Norns, etc.?

[Millstone85]

It's not an insurmountable problem, but you will have to figure out where the traditional 'outlands' stuff happens if it is also functionally the Prime in your cosmology.I am not replacing the Material with the Outlands, at least not functionally.

An enlightened character standing atop Candlekeep would say "I see the blessed mountain beyond the windy plains". The scholar next to them would take note of it, and think about similar testimonies, but could only see the horizon of what they know to be a round planet. It would be similarly difficult for the neutral dead to reach Candlekeep.

But maybe I should have kept the Nobilis stuff for another thread. In practice, there is a region of the Outlands that ressembles the Material, and in the center of that region is an access to the Material proper. The region is next to another region that is not unlike it, except more under the power of elemental air, and there is an access to the Plane of Air. Next is a region that is like a TN/LG afterlife, and somewhere in it is an access to Mount Celestia.


I really enjoy this idea. My only question would be how this would affect the other relams in the Outlands like Tir Na Nog, Dwarven Mountain, the Norns, etc.?I haven't really thought about that. But the Outer Planes always have enough space for everything. And maybe the dwarves would make their home where elemental earth is strong, or maybe they would prefer to be where the spirit of Law permeates.

[Xartavion]

So, the True Neutral Outer Plane of Concordant Opposition.

First, I think it would be fun to go full Nobilis with this. The Outlands aren't just a "microcosm" of the Outer Planes, as the DMG calls them earlier, but the wheel itself perceived as a world. There are regions there that can be fully embraced from an aerial view, but will transform as you get closer, until it seems impossible for this space to have been a flat land on a disk. The "gate-towns" wouldn't be built around portals per say, but would serve as landmarks to navigate this odd transition. Go north-east from Sylvania and soon it will seem Arborea is all that exists. But go north-east from somewhere else and you might actually reach the edge of the Outlands.

Secondly, why just the Outer Planes? In between the Spire and the ring of the gate-towns, there could be regions of elemental power and more. Looking at the Great Wheel, the scenery could even change in thematic ways.

The sky above the gears was heavy with smoke, and soon a rain of ashes would fall. Some would say it completed the "industrial" aspect of the place, but in truth the chimneys were not to blame.

As you travel through places of fire and molten earth, everything progressively becomes tainted with evil, until you are in Gehenna.

Your journey took you from the swamp of a hag to a realm of mud. Then the oozes became mimics and chaos beasts, before the terrain itself started trading the fluidity of mud for one encompassing all forms.

The cold had been harsh, the snow treacherous, but now it was as if the warmth in your heart and in that of your companions had become less of a metaphor, as if the ice itself had become more glistening, and as if a home you didn't know you had was calling to you just some distance ahead.

Do you think that would make for an interesting setting?

Edit: Better picture.

I ABSOLUTELY agree, it would make a more interesting setting. I've got a party currently mired in the Outlands (trying to find Plague-Mort to get into the Abyss relatively safely and reliably) and this is something I SO wish I'd have thought to incorporate before they'd traveled for a week plus across the somewhat chaotic and unpredictable terrains I've concocted along the way. Do you mind having someone pick your brain a bit to help flesh this out, since our campaign is likely to feature multiple return visits to the Outlands?

[Millstone85]

Do you mind having someone pick your brain a bit to help flesh this out, since our campaign is likely to feature multiple return visits to the Outlands?Normally, I would be happy to help. But I am now brainstorming a setting that has very little to do with the planes, one that I intend to actually flesh out for once, and I am not so good at multitasking.

[Xartavion]

Normally, I would be happy to help. But I am now brainstorming a setting that has very little to do with the planes, one that I intend to actually flesh out for once, and I am not so good at multitasking.

That is fair. Best of luck in your current endeavor! :D