Spontaneously casting wizard

[jamison]

pretty much, everyone else is better with numbers and balance then I, is there a way to merge sorc and wizard, to make him cast spontaneously but get spells the pace of a wizard. how many spells per day would that class have and so on

[Cosi]

Spontaneous Divination + Versatile Spellcaster has the desired effect, starting at 6th level.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The spellsinger class from the Kingdoms of Kalamar 3.0 Player's Guide is pretty much this. Its spell progression is wizard, its spells known is sorcerer except it gains 1 when it first gets a spell level (So a sorcerer's 9th are -,1,2,3 and a spellsingers are 1,1,2,3). It is a charisma caster and their spells only have verbal components but cannot be silenced.

[Eldariel]

You can just pick the Uncanny Forethought [Exemplars of Evil] as a feat to cast Int mod (you can easily get it up to +13 by 20 and start at +5) spells per day spontaneously from empty slots as full-round actions. This makes your Wizard a Sorcerer-lite with infinite spells known. Alternatively, if your Sorcerer is a Kobold with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), you get an extra level of casting, essentially allowing you to catch up to Wizard-progression. These approximate your desired goal as existing options so you can design around those.

[Endarire]

Spontaneous Wizard Guide (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=474.0)

[digiman619]

You'd have to back-port it from Pathfinder, but you might be interested in the arcanist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist)

[ericgrau]

You mean as a new made up class right? For high optimization, being spontaneous is actually a drawback. For common play which I'm betting you're coming from:

Spells known = wizard's spells per day - 1, to a minimum of 1 (unless wizard spells per day is 0)
Spells per day = wizard's spells per day.
Skills, weapon proficiencies = no big deal either way.
Casting stat = no big deal either way. Charisma probably makes the most sense since it's still spontaneous.

Hmm, that should about do it, have fun.

Reason: 95% of the time players outside of D&D forums do not plan their spells per day based on predicting the future. So for them a wizard's spells known are a largely irrelevant minor perk. A wizard's spells per day is effectively his spells known for all practical purposes, and this number decreases as the day progresses. And actually it starts less than this number if it would be useful to prepare a duplicate spell. The sorcerer's spells known OTOH stays the same all day until he hits 0 spells per day remaining for that level. Spontaneous metamagic further increases his effective spells known for a level. So to make up for the advantage of having more spells known later in the day, we need to decrease his initial number. Since the beginning matters more than later in the day, and metamagic versions of spells aren't quite as powerful as other spells of the same adjusted level, a decrease of 1 is already pretty harsh. Not to mention it's effectively a decrease of 2 compared to school specialization. So we can probably stop there. Yeah, odd that the sorcerer effectively has more spells known for casual P.O. outside of D&D forums.

Whatever, O.P. doesn't seem like a heavy optimizer or he wouldn't have asked this question, so spare me anything on the wizard divining what he will need ahead of time. No casual player ever, ever does that. 90+% of the time he doesn't even plan ahead via basic ways unless there's a sign outside the dungeon that says "This is the red cave of fiery fireness. We are up to no good, but we're more than happy to wait until you're ready before we execute our plan."

[Cosi]

You mean as a new made up class right? For high optimization, being spontaneous is actually a drawback.

This is wrong. For any given list of spells, it is better to cast those spells spontaneously. This is why the Cleric is worse than the Beguiler/Rainbow Servant (once the latter gets its capstone). As it happens, the spontaneous classes get worse lists, but the mechanic is actually better.

The one exception to this is Uncanny Forethought, but that's Wizard specific and therefore irrelevant if discussing a new class.

[gkathellar]

If you're looking to homebrew, it would not be super-unreasonable to give a wizard the "temporary spells known" of the spirit shaman. Otherwise, it's been covered above.

[Whodidit]

Wizard never will be spontaneous.

Prepared spell caster need prepare metamagic previously. Spontaneous Divination + Versatile Spellcaster can't apply metamagic.


I always prefer Sorcerer Limited Wish + duplicating Psychic Reformation and just rework spell know lit and feats list as standard action. (If Dweomerkeeper, Supernatural Spell bypass xp cost) and applying metamagic easily.

[Whodidit]

This is wrong. For any given list of spells, it is better to cast those spells spontaneously. This is why the Cleric is worse than the Beguiler/Rainbow Servant (once the latter gets its capstone). As it happens, the spontaneous classes get worse lists, but the mechanic is actually better.


Wrong, Cleric is better than Beguiler/Rainbow Servant. Beguiler/Rainbow Servant doesn't acess level 9 spells, Rainbow Servant is not full caster PRC.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Wrong, Cleric is better than Beguiler/Rainbow Servant. Beguiler/Rainbow Servant doesn't acess level 9 spells, Rainbow Servant is not full caster PRC.

It is. Text says full, table disagress. Rules are explicit: text trumps table.

[Whodidit]

It is. Text says full, table disagress. Rules are explicit: text trumps table. where can I find this rule?

Complete Arcane explicitly shows Rainbow Ser antes as moderate spellcaster

[gkathellar]

where can I find this rule?

Complete Arcane explicitly shows Rainbow Ser antes as moderate spellcaster

Text trumps table, text says it advances every level. Errata never corrected this. Compare other classes that don't advance casting every level, where the text is specific about which levels are skipped.

[Whodidit]

Text trumps table, text says it advances every level. Errata never corrected this. Compare other classes that don't advance casting every level, where the text is specific about which levels are skipped.

Complete Divine page 20 shows also Rainbow servant as moderate spellcaster. It isnt Full caster or "strong spellcaster"

[gkathellar]

Complete Divine page 20 shows also Rainbow servant as moderate spellcaster. It isnt Full caster or "strong spellcaster"

Complete Divine page 20 isn't rules text.

[Whodidit]

Complete Divine page 20 isn't rules text.

It rules normally.
It's explicit, He's a moderate spellcaster and there is no divergence.
And nothing, absolutely nothing says Rainbow Servant is a Strong Spellcaster. So that page 20 is absolutely valid.

Rainbow Servant is a Moderate Spellcaster by RAW.

[gkathellar]

It rules normally.
It's explicit, He's a moderate spellcaster and there is no divergence.
And nothing, absolutely nothing says Rainbow Servant is a Strong Spellcaster. So that page 20 is absolutely valid.

Rainbow Servant is a Moderate Spellcaster by RAW.

And moderate spellcaster is not a rules term. Neither is strong spellcaster - both are terms of convenience meant as guidelines for people browsing the book.

Once again, compare to the actual text of the actual class, and of other PrCs. The spells known/spells per day text of the class says, explicitly, that it advances spell casting at every level.

[Whodidit]

And moderate spellcaster is not a rules term. Neither is strong spellcaster - both are terms of convenience meant as guidelines for people browsing the book.

Once again, compare to the actual text of the actual class, and of other PrCs. The spells known/spells per day text of the class says, explicitly, that it advances spell casting at every level.


Complete Divine Defines and explains about Moderate Spellcaster/Strong Spellcaster. This is a solid rule.

Rainbow Servant is under Moderate Spellcaster's rule term.

Read Moderate Spellcaster description: They haven't full spellcasting progress.

[gkathellar]

Complete Divine Defines and explains about Moderate Spellcaster/Strong Spellcaster. This is a solid rule.

Rainbow Servant is under Moderate Spellcaster's rule term.

Read Moderate Spellcaster description: They haven't full spellcasting progress.

You're referencing a term that is not specific, is used nowhere else, and is specifically contradicted by the actual text of the actual class. Text trumps table, specific trumps general.

Is that confusing? Sure. Is it a sign of bad editing? Absolutely. Is Rainbow Servant overpowered? Not on its own - it's mostly a function of the way fixed-listers work. But text trumps table, and specific trumps general.

[Cosi]

Suppose we accept that Rainbow Servant is, mechanically speaking, a "Moderate Spellcaster". What exactly does that mean? Where is the term defined? Why is saying Rainbow Servant is a "Moderate Spellcaster" more meaningful than saying it is a "graflark" or a "spurg"?

[Whodidit]

Suppose we accept that Rainbow Servant is, mechanically speaking, a "Moderate Spellcaster". What exactly does that mean? Where is the term defined? Why is saying Rainbow Servant is a "Moderate Spellcaster" more meaningful than saying it is a "graflark" or a "spurg"?

We don't need to accept him as a "Moderate Spellcaster". Complete Divine has already done it.

Complete Divine page 19 and 20.

"Moderate Spellcaster: these prestige classes don't get more and better spells as quickly, but they have other abilities to make up for their reduced progress"

"Strong Spellcaster: Prestige classes on this list are good choices for spellcasters who wants their progress toward higher levels of magic to be uninterrupted."


Page 20 says, Moderate Spellcaster: Entropomancer, hospitaler, rainbow servant, sacred fist, seeker of the mysty isle, shining blade of heironeous, Void Disciple, Warpriest.
They have reduced spellcasting progression

Strong Spellcaster: Church Inquisitor and others.

[Cosi]

"Moderate Spellcaster: these prestige classes don't get more and better spells as quickly, but they have other abilities to make up for their reduced progress"

"Strong Spellcaster: Prestige classes on this list are good choices for spellcasters who wants their progress toward higher levels of magic to be uninterrupted."

Alright, but all you done is shift the undefined terms down a level. What does "reduced progress" mean? Clearly, you believe it to mean "lost caster levels", but couldn't it equally mean that the Beguiler/Rainbow Servant loses his advanced learning, but the Beguiler who takes a "Strong Spellcaster" class maintains it? As far as I can tell, the text doesn't make enough mechanical claims for that to be false.

[Cosi]

All PRC listed in Moderate Spellcaster lost spellcaster levels.

But this is incorrect -- the Rainbow Servant does not lose caster levels. What is true is that a Beguiler who takes any of those PrCs will lose her Advanced Learning, and therefore get less spells, and therefore have their progression reduced from "all the Beguiler Spells + Advanced Learning" to "all the Beguiler Spells".

Now, you may ask "what about classes that don't get Advanced Learning". Well, I suppose they must lose caster levels, which is another reason the Sorcerer is worse than the Beguiler.

[CozJa]

Back on topic, I'm the only one who has problems in opening Endarire's link?

[Cosi]

Back on topic, I'm the only one who has problems in opening Endarire's link?

I am too. It looks like maybe the link is to a dead version of the forums? It looks like it's just the PHP script for loading the page, not the actual page.

[Mato]

Back on topic, I'm the only one who has problems in opening Endarire's link?I had to scroll back up and find it, but it worked fine for me. I've been having problems googling anything related to the site through since minmaxboards still gets a lot of hits but if you're still having issues you can try google's cache here (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:5y04yPcfxr4J:minmaxforum.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D474.0).

[bahamut920]

You'd have to back-port it from Pathfinder, but you might be interested in the arcanist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist)
Arcanist has sorcerer progression. OP wants wizard progression.

One of the things I've been thinking though; how would it be to "swap" sorcerer and wizard spell level progression? Make sorcerers get new spell levels at odd levels, and wizards get new spell levels at 1, 4, and every even level after? The way I see it, it would somewhat even out sorcerers and wizards; sorcerers would be the naturally talented innate spellcasters with more "stamina" and raw power, whereas the wizard's main advantage becomes versatility, losing the advantage of raw power that he previously held. I know it probably wouldn't completely even out the two classes, especially on even-numbered levels, but it might go a ways towards making sorcerers more attractive to play.


Wrong, Cleric is better than Beguiler/Rainbow Servant. Beguiler/Rainbow Servant doesn't acess level 9 spells, Rainbow Servant is not full caster PRC.

Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new rainbow servant level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class in which she could cast 3rd-level arcane spells before she added the prestige class.
Emphasis mine. The actual rules text for the Rainbow Servant identifies it as progressing spellcasting every single time you take a level in it. Other tables or identifications, even within the same book, are irrelevant. If the rules text and a table in the book conflict, you are to use the rules text instead of the table without exception. Since there is no errata which contradicts this rules text, Rainbow Servant advances spellcasting at every level.


Back on topic, I'm the only one who has problems in opening Endarire's link?
I had no problem.

[Sleven]

The spellsinger class from the Kingdoms of Kalamar 3.0 Player's Guide is pretty much this. Its spell progression is wizard, its spells known is sorcerer except it gains 1 when it first gets a spell level (So a sorcerer's 9th are -,1,2,3 and a spellsingers are 1,1,2,3). It is a charisma caster and their spells only have verbal components but cannot be silenced.

I would really like to know where it says a Spellsinger cannot be silenced.