Trickery Devotion: rules

[Lady Alysha]

I am trying to understand how the simulacrum you get from the Trickery Devotion feat from Champions of Ruin works. Unfortunately the rule is really badly worded, so I am trying to sum up what works where it is stated and to do some acceptable ruling for the big grey areas.

The simulacrum you can create of yourself with Trickery Devotion is fundamentally based on the Unseen Servant spell, adding some touches of Major Image and Project Image.

1) How does the simulacrum move?

Trickery Devotion: It ignores terrain effects and moves like an unseen servant , making no noise in the process, though it makes normal motions while traveling. If you have a fly speed, the image appears to fly when not in contact with the ground; otherwise, it walks on open air.

Trickery Devotion: You can move the image as if it were your own body, using the simulacrum's movement characteristics (ignoring terrain, "flying," and the like)
From the Unseen Servant, we know that its speed is limited to 15 feet. From the above text of Trickery Devotion, we know that it can also fly, regarldess of wether or not the caster has a fly speed.

2) How far can the simulacrum move away from you?

Trickery Devotion: Once per day as a standard action, you can create an exact duplicate of yourself up to 30 feet away.
On one hand, it's clear that this is the distance up to which you can make it appear, but it doesn't say if once created, the simulacrum can move further away. The Unseen Servant is limited to 25 feet + 5 feet/2 levels. If it moves further away, it dissipates.
In this case, I think we have to assume that if you are separated more than 30 feet, it ceases to exist. This means that you have to be very careful in battle, if you don't want to risk it fading away.

3) How many hit points does it have?
6 + caster's character level

4) Can it be killed?

Unseen Servant: It cannot be killed, but it dissipates if it takes 6 points of damage from area attacks. (It gets no saves against attacks.)
So basically this seems to indicate that it cannot be killed by the sword. The only way for an enemy killing it would be:
* bull rush it and make it move further than 30 feet away
* use an area attack like a breath weapon, a ball of fire, etc.
* magically dispel it?

Since it cannot be killed by the sword, it seems to make an excellent tank, unless the enemy is intelligent and discovers that it is a simulacrum and uses one of the means above to kill it.

5) Can it be disbelieved?
No. The simulacrum is real, just as the Unseen Servant is. Only the Major Image effect that makes it look like you and be visible is actually illusory. The rest is a force effect (conjuration: creation).


As long as the simulacrum remains within 5 feet of your position (and you can direct it to do so as a free action), you can perform a Bluff check in combat as a swift action. You gain a +4 bonus on this check, which is opposed by your opponents' Sense Motive checks. If you are successful, your foes believe the image is you (and vice versa) for 1 round.

This is an interesting one. So you can fool enemies into thinking it is you. Unfortunately you have to be very close to the simulacrum. An intelligent enemy presumably would think that the simulacrum is you and that you are the simulacrum. He would then e.g. cast a fireball to hit you, knowing that it will destroy you (the apparent simulacrum) with it. But since the simulacrum is close to you, it would also be get hit by the area effect. So this strategy of confounding the enemy is only recommended against foes which only use melee or ranged attacks. In this case the strategy would be really good, because the simulacrum can't be killed this way. So the enemy would waste all his attacks on it, while you could safely hack it away. We can assume that any enemy would focus his efforts on the apparent real PC instead of his simulacrum.

But what happens if you don't do this bluff check or if you fail it? Do enemies immediately know that it is a fake? The rules don't say it, so I can only dare to infer based on the Major Image rules (the simulacrum's visuals are based on Major Image): If you are not in combat and they don't specifically interact with it, they don't get and Will safe to disbelief. So if you are e.g. strolling through the city with the simulacrum, nobody realizes it is a fake. If they interact with it (it is safe to assume that if in combat, enemies would look at it closely and hence interact with it, even without attacking it), I would rule that they get a Will safe to disbelief, just with the Major Image. If they fail, they believe it is a real PC (and might think that you are its twin). If they succeed with their save, then they know that it is fake.

So the advantage of doing the bluff check is twofold: On one hand, it is a skill check and you might have better chances winning it, than allowing them a safe. On the other hand, they take you for a fake and hence, by all logic, they attack the simulacrum.

What happens if they succeed with their Will save to disbelieve? Know, the simulacrum is a force effect, it is real. The only thing that happens is that they know that it is a fake, but it is still there. I would rule that they don't recognize it as a simulacrum, but rather as an illusionary image. Most likely, they would therefore ignore it... until they get attacked by it and they find out that it can hur them, even though the overlay that makes it look like you is just an illusion.

6) Can it attack?

Trickery Devotion: It gains a Strength score equal to one-half your own and can perform combat actions using phantom versions of your gear.

So yes, it can do combat actions. But what is a combat action? The simple answer is that it can attack with a phantom replica of e.g. your sword. Could it do a Whirlwind Attack? I would say yes, since this is a combat action. Can it to a Tome of Battle maneuver? Again, I would say yes... as long as it is extraordinary.

Trickery Devotion: You can move the image as if it were your own body.
So in general, I would rule that combat actions are restricted to extraordinary abilities and exclude any supernatural abilities (like some of the Tome of Battle manuevers).

Bear in mind that all equipment is mundaine. So this +5 rapier is just a rapier, although I would allow it to function as a masterwork item. Also, if you had Slippers of Battledancing, these would be just phantom replica with no magical properties (so no Charisma to hit and damage).

It can get a bit messy though. Image it uses Insightful Strike combat maneuver. It is extraordinary, not supernatural, so no problem here. It uses the concentration skill check result as the damage output. So far so good, because you can do skill checks through the simulacrum:

Trickery Devotion: You can also perform any skill and ability checks using the simulacrum
But in my case, I am planning using Undersong spell (permanent on a custom magical ring), which replaces concentration with perform. But the simulacrum doesn't have this ring, his is just a harmless phantom copy. Can he therefore do perform checks instead of peformance? I would say yes, because it is not the simulacrum who does it, but the caster via the simulacrum (The text above says "using the simulacrum").

7) What would be its attack bonifiers?
I would rule that it would have your BAB derived from your class and your Dexterity modifier if you had the Weapon Finesse feat (or if the sword was light and feycraft - this weapon property looks mundane to me). Bear in mind that its Strength score is only one half though, possibly leaving it without Power Attack.

8) What is its AC?
The simulacrum has mundane phantom copies of your equipment. They are not just illusions, they are real, but without magic. I would therefore say that its AC is based on your Dexterity plus your size modifier, plus your mundane armor. But what about Wisdom to AC if you were a Monk? I would say that this would be included as well, because it's actually you who are moving the simulacrum (as a free action), it doesn't have a mind of its own. And what about the Charisma deflection bonus from Sirene's Grace spell? Nope, I think you couldn't add this, because the deflection is centered on your real body, not the simulacrum's. Fortunately, since it cannot be destroyed by melee, the AC seems irrelevant for most of the situations.

9) Can it benefit from spells?

Trickery Devotion: In addition, you can now cast spells originating from the image as if with a project image spell

Project Image: The projected image can't cast any spells on itself except for illusion spells.
So for example, if you wanted to have Mirror Images, you could do it, but since it can only be destoyed by area effect attacks, there wouldn't be really any benefit in that, other than the visuals and adding to the enemy's confusion (I am thinking that an intelligent enemy could be made into believing that the reason why it is not doing any damage is that it is always hitting the mirror image).

There is some potential "abuse" here by using spells like Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration. They are illusion spells which mimic other spells and since they are illusions, they could be cast on the simulacrum. I am thinking of Fire Shield spell here, which with Shadow Evocation, you should be able to make it work on the simulacrum. So now the enemy tries to hack it (because you succeeded in the bluff check and it thinks the simulacrum is the real you) and doesn't realize that he doesn't have any chance of hurting it, while all the time, it gets burned due to the Fire Shield. Any better ideas? How about Shadow Evocating a Scimitar of Sand for decent damage output?

10) On which turn does it act?
The simulacrum is mindless. It doesn't act on it's own, it's just an extension of you (like a dancing blade for example). Therefore it doesn't get it's own turn and rather acts on yours.

11) Can you change the simulacrum's appereance?

Trickery Devotion: you can create an exact duplicate of yourself

Trickery Devotion: The simulacrum combines the characteristics of the silent image (PH 279) and unseen servant (PH 297) spells
It does say that it combines the characteristics of a Silent Image and you can definitely change the visuals of a Silent Image after creating it. However, it does also say that you create an exact duplicate. I believe that you cannot change its appereance: it will look like you when you created it and you cannot change it later. So if you got your pants dirty afterwards, the simulacrum would still have clean pants. You could however cast Disguise Self on the simulacrum and with it make it change its appereance. So you could crate it, cast Disguise Self and make it look like the chief enemy.


Overall, I don't see this feat broken or overpowered. It is rather quite limited with what it can do. The fact that it cannot be hurt by melee might sound big, but it just takes a bit of damage from an area effect to destroy it (and it doesn't get any save or Evasion). But it does open up a big range of possibilities to play it smart and funny. I think I am going to make room for it in my Bard build, although I would possibly get more power from a more straight-forward feat.

Has any one come up with good uses of Trickery Devotion's simulacrum?

[RoboEmperor]

You forgot it replicates all nonmagical items, such as costly spell components, letting you cast spells like Force Cage for free.

[Venger]

trickery devotion is from complete champion. it’s not poorly written at all.

1)
The image can’t fly unless you can.

2) It doesn’t say it can’t, so it can. There is no grounds to say it disappears if more than 30 feet away from you.

4) area effects will kill it. like an unseen servant, it doesn’t have a body, so can’t be targeted. bullrushing will not work. it cannot be dispelled because it’s not a spell

5) the major image effect is not illusory, it just refers to the simulacrum being able to create a thermal imprint

without doing the bluff check, if your gm’s not a cheater, the npc need to rely on their own wits. for all they know, you cast mirror image or something and they don’t know which to attack even if they saw you flip it on. they do not get a save to disbelieve.

the simulacrum is not a force effect.

it doesn’t say it has your feats and stuff, so it doesn’t. no whirlwind attack or maneuvers.

your copy cannot use undersong. his ring isn’t magical.

your copy has no class levels so it has no ba.

the copy does not have an AC because it can’t be targeted. it doesn’t need one.

9) no

shadow evocation/conjuration doesn’t dodge this.

it’s not a creature so can’t be affected by stuff like fire shield.

it’s not a broken feat, it’s fun.

I like using it with a combat trap smith to set off traps.

[Crake]

You forgot it replicates all nonmagical items, such as costly spell components, letting you cast spells like Force Cage for free.

No, it creates phantom versions of all your equipment which disappear when they lose contact with the simulacrum. That kinda makes them worthless. So you may have a phantom version of 1500gp worth of ruby dust, but that phantom ruby dust itself is worthless, and thus cannot be used to cast spells.

[Darrin]

Has any one come up with good uses of Trickery Devotion's simulacrum?

It shows up occasionally in Iron Chef (although Dvati tends to be more popular for duplicate-abuse). It's also a lynchpin in my Lightning Thief (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?142080-3-5-The-Lightning-Thief-Epic-Sleight-of-Hand-Abuse) build.

[Lady Alysha]

1) The image can’t fly unless you can.


Yes it can fly. This it what the feat description says (emphasis mine):

If you have a fly speed, the image appears to fly when not in contact with the ground; otherwise, it walks on open air.

It says that if you can fly, than the visuals show it flying, e.g. flapping the wings if you had wings. OTHERWISE - this is, if you cannot fly - then it just walks on open air WHENEVER it is not in contact with the ground. So, whenever it is not in contact with the ground, it is walking on open air. If it is doing that, then it is not falling. And if it is not falling, then it flies.

It also says later on:

You can move the image as if it were your own body, using the simulacrum's movement characteristics (ignoring terrain, "flying," and the like)

So it pretty much says clearly that the simulacrum's movement characteristics (not yours), include flying. It is the simulacrum's movement characteristics and not yours, because you clearly normally wouldn't ignore terrain, for example.

Which maneuverability? None - I would just treat it as if it were under the airwalk spell.




2) It doesn’t say it can’t, so it can. There is no grounds to say it disappears if more than 30 feet away from you.


I see your point. But the description says that it combines the characteristics of unseen servant and silent image, and they both have a range limitation. But you are right, it doesn't explicitly put a range limitation on the specific description of this feat. Combining characteristics could mean anything, it is not specific enough to conclude that it has a range limitation. Bear in mind that you coincided with me, that it can't be targetted, which is nowhere mentioned in the Trickery Devotion feat description, only in the Unseen Servant description. So you seem to agree to port over some characteristics mentioned only under Unseen Servant. For me it would therefore make sens to port over some kind of range limitation as well (Unseen Servant or Project Image).



4) area effects will kill it. like an unseen servant, it doesn’t have a body, so can’t be targeted. bullrushing will not work. it cannot be dispelled because it’s not a spell


Excellent, I wasn't sure about dispelling. It's not a spell, but it does seem to be a spell effect. Sorry for my ignorance, but is the Unseen Servant spell dispellable?
You are right, it can't be targeted and therefore bullrushing wouldn't work either.



5) the major image effect is not illusory, it just refers to the simulacrum being able to create a thermal imprint

without doing the bluff check, if your gm’s not a cheater, the npc need to rely on their own wits. for all they know, you cast mirror image or something and they don’t know which to attack even if they saw you flip it on. they do not get a save to disbelieve.


So if the NPCs see the simulacrum alone, then they can't automatically or via a save come to the conclusion that it is not you. Ok.
And if they see you and the simulacrum at the same time? What do they believe? Both of you are real (and they eventually attack both equally?) So if you wanted them to ignore you by making them believe that you are a rather harmless simulacrum and therefore the simulacrum must be the real one and the real threat, you would do the bluff check. ¿?



it doesn’t say it has your feats and stuff, so it doesn’t. no whirlwind attack or maneuvers.

I agree that the simulacrum itself doesn't have any feats, skills... nothing. It just does what you (as a free action) instruct it to do. In fact, you could think that you are doing its movements in your head and it is just a vehicle for them. The description does say:


You can move the image as if it were your own body

If it were your own body. It's like an avatar (the movie). You are just using its body, but it is your mind which is doing all the stuff. And the skills, feats, etc. reside in your mind. I would therefore conclude that you can use your feats through its body. Again, it by itself doesn't have anything, it is just an avatar you are controling. If you can move it as if it were your body, then you can move it with all your (normal and extraordinary) feats, because this is how you would move your own body.

Now the maneuvers, I think it could use them. But since it is actually your mind using them, I would say that whenever it uses one (or to be clearer: whenever you use one through that body), YOU expend one maneuver. So by itself, it doesn't have any maneuvers readied and can't recover them. It is you who has them readied and it is you who recovers them. So if you decide to use a maneuever through the simulacrum's body, you are expending it and you need to recover it later if you want to use it again (with your own body or the simulacrum's body).



your copy cannot use undersong. his ring isn’t magical.


That's right. But it is not the simulacrum who does the skill check, it is you. The simulacrum is just the avatar, you are doing it:

You can also perform any skill and ability checks using the simulacrum

Nowhere it says that the simulacrum can do skill checks on its own. It always says that YOU do the skill check. You just happen to do it by using the simulacrum's hands or whatever.



your copy has no class levels so it has no ba.


Again I agree: the simulacrum doesn't have anything. It is not even a creature. As I pointed out below, the description says that you can use the simulacrum's body as if it were yours. Therefore you are using your own BAB. Otherwise, if it hadn't any bab, it couldn't even do any combat action, it couldn't even make a single attack. Can you, with your own body do e.g. four main hand attacks and one off-hand attack? Yes. Therefore, when you use the simulacrum's body as if it were your own, should you be able to do the same? Yes, because otherwise, you couldn't do it as if it were yours.



the copy does not have an AC because it can’t be targeted. it doesn’t need one.


Agreed, it's not needed since it can't be targetted. I was just thinking that there could be some weird area spells that had some specific effects depending on the AC, but none comes to my mind at the moment. I am not sure if having e.g. a deflection AC could make some area spells have different effects on you.

9) no



shadow evocation/conjuration doesn’t dodge this.

it’s not a creature so can’t be affected by stuff like fire shield.


Why? It does explicitely say that illusion spells can be applied on the simulacrum and all shadow evocation/shadow conjuration spells are illusions. You are not applying with shadow conjuration a real fireshield, you are just creating the illusion that it has a fireshield. It just happens that some illusions can be harmful, especially if they are not disbelieved. I don't see any reason why it couldn't have an illusionary fireshield. It's not that it is a creature that is affected by a fireshield, it is just that it would have the visuals of a fireshield around it and that these visuals contain shadow stuff. I think it should work.

But taking for a moment away shadow evocation/conjuration, what about spells like Bladeweave? Or Claws of Darkness, which gives it a really nice attack. They are purely illusion and according to RAW, illusion spells can be cast on the simulacrum or projected image. According to you, they wouldn't work because "it is not a creature". But RAW does say that illusion spells can affect it. And I think there isn't any conflict with RAI either. Does it gain a nice attack with Claws of Darkness? Yes, but that's just how illusions can work. They are not just visuals, they can be real and harmful as well.



it’s not a broken feat, it’s fun.


I fully agree. I have never played it yet, but it really looks like massive fun and rather more limiting than overpowered. It's not pun-pun, it us just fun if you find some smart way to use it. I am planning ot use it with a chaotic-evil unseelie fey bard. The big part for me is playing really chaotic: today prefering to diplomance/fascinate&suggest, tomorrow summon some monsters and beef them up with inspire courage, the next day going melee with Greater Mirror Images and/or Greater Blink and just before going to bed, mess around with a simulacrum and make enemies go crazy maybe by throwing in some additional silent images.

[RoboEmperor]

No, it creates phantom versions of all your equipment which disappear when they lose contact with the simulacrum. That kinda makes them worthless. So you may have a phantom version of 1500gp worth of ruby dust, but that phantom ruby dust itself is worthless, and thus cannot be used to cast spells.

Your ruling is within reason, but so is mine. It's a grey area upto individual DMs. Virtually all will rule in your favor due to this being OP as hell, but I'm sure tippy-like ppl will rule in my favor.

[Venger]

Yes it can fly. This it what the feat description says (emphasis mine):


It says that if you can fly, than the visuals show it flying, e.g. flapping the wings if you had wings. OTHERWISE - this is, if you cannot fly - then it just walks on open air WHENEVER it is not in contact with the ground. So, whenever it is not in contact with the ground, it is walking on open air. If it is doing that, then it is not falling. And if it is not falling, then it flies.

It also says later on:


So it pretty much says clearly that the simulacrum's movement characteristics (not yours), include flying. It is the simulacrum's movement characteristics and not yours, because you clearly normally wouldn't ignore terrain, for example.

Which maneuverability? None - I would just treat it as if it were under the airwalk spell.

No.

The fact that it says it can fly only if you can means that if you can’t, then it can’t fly. The fact that it doesn’t provide a maneuverability for a simulacrum’s flight (since it doesn’t exist) is another hint to this.


I see your point. But the description says that it combines the characteristics of unseen servant and silent image, and they both have a range limitation. But you are right, it doesn't explicitly put a range limitation on the specific description of this feat. Combining characteristics could mean anything, it is not specific enough to conclude that it has a range limitation. Bear in mind that you coincided with me, that it can't be targetted, which is nowhere mentioned in the Trickery Devotion feat description, only in the Unseen Servant description. So you seem to agree to port over some characteristics mentioned only under Unseen Servant. For me it would therefore make sens to port over some kind of range limitation as well (Unseen Servant or Project Image).

The characteristics of silent/major/project image and unseen servant regard traits and behavior, not range, because again: trickery devotion is not a spell.

There is no range limit in place. The feat is weak enough and does not need house rules to hamstring it.



Excellent, I wasn't sure about dispelling. It's not a spell, but it does seem to be a spell effect. Sorry for my ignorance, but is the Unseen Servant spell dispellable?
Any spell that is not instantaneous and doesn’t have explicit text to the contrary (such as bestow curse, for example) can be dispelled.


So if the NPCs see the simulacrum alone, then they can't automatically or via a save come to the conclusion that it is not you. Ok.
And if they see you and the simulacrum at the same time? What do they believe? Both of you are real (and they eventually attack both equally?) So if you wanted them to ignore you by making them believe that you are a rather harmless simulacrum and therefore the simulacrum must be the real one and the real threat, you would do the bluff check. ¿?
Correct. The effect does not allow a save, so they don’t just get one from the aether.

If they see the simulacrum and you at the same time, the conclusions they draw depend on the specific enemy’s powers of perception and other magical nonsense. Perhaps he has the scent ability and you’re under level 5 and within range of his effect, so he smells there is only one of you. Perhaps he has mind sight and can see there is only one mind. Perhaps he is a mindless ooze and you’re past lvl 5, so he cannot tell the two of you apart. There isn’t one answer that covers all bases, but enemies should not just know everything the gm knows at all times, it’s not cricket.

Bluff check seems appropriate in that situation.



I agree that the simulacrum itself doesn't have any feats, skills... nothing. It just does what you (as a free action) instruct it to do. In fact, you could think that you are doing its movements in your head and it is just a vehicle for them. The description does say:



If it were your own body. It's like an avatar (the movie). You are just using its body, but it is your mind which is doing all the stuff. And the skills, feats, etc. reside in your mind. I would therefore conclude that you can use your feats through its body. Again, it by itself doesn't have anything, it is just an avatar you are controling. If you can move it as if it were your body, then you can move it with all your (normal and extraordinary) feats, because this is how you would move your own body.

Now the maneuvers, I think it could use them. But since it is actually your mind using them, I would say that whenever it uses one (or to be clearer: whenever you use one through that body), YOU expend one maneuver. So by itself, it doesn't have any maneuvers readied and can't recover them. It is you who has them readied and it is you who recovers them. So if you decide to use a maneuever through the simulacrum's body, you are expending it and you need to recover it later if you want to use it again (with your own body or the simulacrum's body).

Here and throughout, you seem to be under the impression things like this are a matter of opinion. They are not. The game’s very persnickety about when you get stuff like class features, feats, skills, ex and su sqs, etc. Look at the rules for something like polymorph or mind switch. If any effect ever lets you take on huge complicated chunks of another character, like skills or feats, they will tell you so. Trickery devotion doesn’t, so your simulacrum doesn’t get that at any point.

You cannot use your skill ranks, feats, or martial maneuvers.


That's right. But it is not the simulacrum who does the skill check, it is you. The simulacrum is just the avatar, you are doing it:


Nowhere it says that the simulacrum can do skill checks on its own. It always says that YOU do the skill check. You just happen to do it by using the simulacrum's hands or whatever.
You cannot perform skill checks through your simulacrum. You can cast spells, but not do skill checks.

What trickery devotion says is

You can move the image as if it were your own body, using the simulacrum's movement characteristics (ignoring terrain, "flying, " and the like).

This is specifically in regards to how your simulacrum is allowed to move.

it does explicitly say the simulacrum can do skill checks on its own:




You can also perform any skill and ability checks using the simulacrum



Again I agree: the simulacrum doesn't have anything. It is not even a creature. As I pointed out below, the description says that you can use the simulacrum's body as if it were yours. Therefore you are using your own BAB. Otherwise, if it hadn't any bab, it couldn't even do any combat action, it couldn't even make a single attack. Can you, with your own body do e.g. four main hand attacks and one off-hand attack? Yes. Therefore, when you use the simulacrum's body as if it were your own, should you be able to do the same? Yes, because otherwise, you couldn't do it as if it were yours.
It doesn’t say the simulacrum has your ba, so it doesn’t.

An effect doesn’t need a BA to be able to perform combat actions. It gives it a to-hit of 1/2 your strength score. That’s all it has.

The rest of this section has no basis in the rules.


Agreed, it's not needed since it can't be targetted. I was just thinking that there could be some weird area spells that had some specific effects depending on the AC, but none comes to my mind at the moment. I am not sure if having e.g. a deflection AC could make some area spells have different effects on you.
Area spells, by definition, do not target AC. What are you talking about in regards to a deflection ac? the simulacrum’s AC isn’t 0, it’s -, like an undead’s con score. It cannot be targeted at all, so is not in need of improvement.


Why? It does explicitely say that illusion spells can be applied on the simulacrum and all shadow evocation/shadow conjuration spells are illusions. You are not applying with shadow conjuration a real fireshield, you are just creating the illusion that it has a fireshield. It just happens that some illusions can be harmful, especially if they are not disbelieved. I don't see any reason why it couldn't have an illusionary fireshield. It's not that it is a creature that is affected by a fireshield, it is just that it would have the visuals of a fireshield around it and that these visuals contain shadow stuff. I think it should work.
It says no such thing about being able to cast illusion spells on the simulacrum.

Are you saying, if you flip on the simulacrum while affected by fire shield, then it looks like it has fire shield? Because that is accurate. It just doesn’t receive benefits of the spell because it isn’t a creature and is thus not a valid target of the spell.


But taking for a moment away shadow evocation/conjuration, what about spells like Bladeweave? Or Claws of Darkness, which gives it a really nice attack. They are purely illusion and according to RAW, illusion spells can be cast on the simulacrum or projected image. According to you, they wouldn't work because "it is not a creature". But RAW does say that illusion spells can affect it. And I think there isn't any conflict with RAI either. Does it gain a nice attack with Claws of Darkness? Yes, but that's just how illusions can work. They are not just visuals, they can be real and harmful as well.

both of those spells are personal. you can cast them on yourself only.

what is this RAW you’re citing that allows illusion to be cast on the simulacrum? There is no such thing. please cite it if you’re going to continue to lean on it.

again, you say “according to me” as if what I’m saying is an opinion. all you need to do is look at the target line in those spells and see how it says personal. that means you can only cast it on yourself. there are certain effects like familiars and animal companions that can also enjoy personal spells, but those things say so in their rules info. trickery devotion is not one of them. RAI is meaningless and is not helpful in rules discussions.


I fully agree. I have never played it yet, but it really looks like massive fun and rather more limiting than overpowered. It's not pun-pun, it us just fun if you find some smart way to use it. I am planning ot use it with a chaotic-evil unseelie fey bard. The big part for me is playing really chaotic: today prefering to diplomance/fascinate&suggest, tomorrow summon some monsters and beef them up with inspire courage, the next day going melee with Greater Mirror Images and/or Greater Blink and just before going to bed, mess around with a simulacrum and make enemies go crazy maybe by throwing in some additional silent images.
you’re going to have a blast. trickery devotion’s one of my favorite feats in the game, and I’ve been playing for a while. that sounds like a lot of fun. how long is your game going to go? had you thought about prestige classes such as wild soul? very good for an unseelie fey flavored character. your concept sounds like fun. I did a similar thing back in villainous competition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19662157&postcount=67) a while ago

if you want to talk about a confusing, poorly written spell, mirror image (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187521-3-5-The-Mirror-Image-FAQ-thread) requires a small bit of research before whipping it out in a game, and probably at least a short discussion with your gm. it’s a great spell and you ought to use it, but you should hash out how certain situations work before combat begins, because there’s no worse time to argue about the rules.

[Lady Alysha]

You can cast spells, but not do skill checks.



it does explicitly say the simulacrum can do skill checks on its own:


So you are saying that it's the simulacrum who does the skill checks, not you, right? However, the feat description explicitely says that it is YOU who is doing the skill checks THROUGH the simulacrum:


Trickery Devotion: You can also perform any skill and ability checks using the simulacrum

You were also saying that it doesn't have any skill ranks or that you cannot use your own skill ranks for the skill check. But how do you do certain skill checks if you don't have any ranks? Some skill checks cannot be made untrained. So if I had ranks in that skill, but you are saying that I cannot use them through the simulacrum, it means that I cannot do the skill check. And the description says that you can perform ANY skill check (presumably which you could normally do). Paraphrasing Spock... logic dictates that in order to be able to do ANY skill check USING the simulacrum, you have to be able to use your skill ranks throug



It doesn’t say the simulacrum has your ba, so it doesn’t.


I see that I have been overoptimistic interpreting the part of being able to move it as with your own body. Indeed, it seems to refer only to movement modes, not to combat feats and not to BAB, etc. So pretty much the simulacrum is limited to one attack or two if it uses its offhand.

What happens if the weapon is light and feycraft, giving you Weapon Finesse? Which DEX do you use then?

Can a phantom weapon be feycraft? Feycraft is not magical, it is just "extraordinary well balanced". The template says that they are "for the most part" cold iron. Can a phantom weapon be cold iron at all? Do feycraft weapons need to be cold iron or is it just that most of the times they are?



It says no such thing about being able to cast illusion spells on the simulacrum.


It does say it:

Trickery Devotion: you can now cast spells originating from the image as if with a project image spell
Now let's look what Project Image says with regards to spell casting:

Project Image: The projected image can't cast any spells on itself except for illusion spells.

I think it is pretty clear. Trickery Devotion tells us that a simulacrum can cast spells and points us to Project Image for the details. It even tells us the only difference between casting a spell through the simulacrum vs. doing it through a projected image:

Trickery Devotion: as if with a project image spell (PH 265), with one exception. If you lose line of effect to the image, the effect does not end; you just can't cast spells originating from the image until you gain line of effect again.

So if a projected image can cast illusion spells on itself, so can the simulacrum.



Are you saying, if you flip on the simulacrum while affected by fire shield, then it looks like it has fire shield? Because that is accurate. It just doesn’t receive benefits of the spell because it isn’t a creature and is thus not a valid target of the spell.


No, no, that's not what I am saying. As you said, if you flip on the simulacrum while affected by a fire shield, the simulacrum eventually will look like having a fireshield, but it's completely fake and harmless. There we agree.

What I am saying is that you could cast Bladeweave (an illusion spell) through the simulacrum on itself and benefit from it (doing attacks which have the potential to daze enemies). Or you could cast through the simulacrum and on itself Claws of Darkness and have it benefit from the touch attack with cold damage it provides. And you could as well cast Shadow Conjuration and conjure an illusionary Fire Shield with all of its effects (which are reduced if the enemy disbelieves). All this, through the simulacrum and on itself, after it has been created, not before.



both of those spells are personal. you can cast them on yourself only.

what is this RAW you’re citing that allows illusion to be cast on the simulacrum? There is no such thing. please cite it if you’re going to continue to lean on it.



Project Image: If you desire, any spell you cast whose range is touch or greater can originate from the projected image instead of from you. The projected image can't cast any spells on itself except for illusion spells.

You don't cast it on the simulacrum, you cast it through it and on itself. That's how project image works and simulacrum refers to project image for spell casting.



you’re going to have a blast. trickery devotion’s one of my favorite feats in the game, and I’ve been playing for a while. that sounds like a lot of fun. how long is your game going to go? had you thought about prestige classes such as wild soul? very good for an unseelie fey flavored character. your concept sounds like fun. I did a similar thing back in villainous competition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19662157&postcount=67) a while ago


We haven't started playing yet. We are all rather planners in the group and enjoy as much playing as planning the character beforehand. Many just start playing and decide on the fly which feats to take, but most of us in the group like to detail it with level 20 in mind, even before we start playing. Another player is planning on another Charisma based character, although more of a Marshal/Paladin/Crusader, focusing on White Raven maneuvers. I have conceded that she will take the Leadership feat instead of me. I was tempted to take it, but my character is rather selfish and hers is more like Captain America. So I thought she would be a better leader of the group and it would make sense that she took the leader ship feat (the DM only allows one character to take it).

Very nice description of your Black Eye. I am planning to do a similar thing and post it, once I have my character ready.

[Venger]

So you are saying that it's the simulacrum who does the skill checks, not you, right? However, the feat description explicitely says that it is YOU who is doing the skill checks THROUGH the simulacrum:

Yes. You make the checks through it, but you are not allowed to use your own skill ranks because it doesn’t say you can.



You were also saying that it doesn't have any skill ranks or that you cannot use your own skill ranks for the skill check. But how do you do certain skill checks if you don't have any ranks? Some skill checks cannot be made untrained. So if I had ranks in that skill, but you are saying that I cannot use them through the simulacrum, it means that I cannot do the skill check. And the description says that you can perform ANY skill check (presumably which you could normally do). Paraphrasing Spock... logic dictates that in order to be able to do ANY skill check USING the simulacrum, you have to be able to use your skill ranks throug
You cannot use skills that can’t be used untrained through the simulacrum. Spock did not write the D&D rules, so his opinions are irrelevant.

Again, this is not a matter of opinion. It doesn’t say your simulacrum gets your skill ranks, so it doesn’t.


I see that I have been overoptimistic interpreting the part of being able to move it as with your own body. Indeed, it seems to refer only to movement modes, not to combat feats and not to BAB, etc. So pretty much the simulacrum is limited to one attack or two if it uses its offhand.

What happens if the weapon is light and feycraft, giving you Weapon Finesse? Which DEX do you use then?

Can a phantom weapon be feycraft? Feycraft is not magical, it is just "extraordinary well balanced". The template says that they are "for the most part" cold iron. Can a phantom weapon be cold iron at all? Do feycraft weapons need to be cold iron or is it just that most of the times they are?
Yes, that is correct. Or if you have bite, claws, etc then it has that many attacks.

There is no provision for it using any dex, and once more, your simulacrum does not take on any feats or special properties of your equipment, so you’re still stuck using your str even if you’re using a rapier or whatever.

Your simulacrum’s gear does not have any special properties magical or mundane. It can’t be made of any special material and is not masterwork.




It does say it:

Now let's look what Project Image says with regards to spell casting:


I think it is pretty clear. Trickery Devotion tells us that a simulacrum can cast spells and points us to Project Image for the details. It even tells us the only difference between casting a spell through the simulacrum vs. doing it through a projected image:


So if a projected image can cast illusion spells on itself, so can the simulacrum.

No, no, that's not what I am saying. As you said, if you flip on the simulacrum while affected by a fire shield, the simulacrum eventually will look like having a fireshield, but it's completely fake and harmless. There we agree.

What I am saying is that you could cast Bladeweave (an illusion spell) through the simulacrum on itself and benefit from it (doing attacks which have the potential to daze enemies). Or you could cast through the simulacrum and on itself Claws of Darkness and have it benefit from the touch attack with cold damage it provides. And you could as well cast Shadow Conjuration and conjure an illusionary Fire Shield with all of its effects (which are reduced if the enemy disbelieves). All this, through the simulacrum and on itself, after it has been created, not before.
Yes, but it also says:


If you desire, any spell you cast whose range is touch or greater can originate from the projected image instead of from you.

(emphasis mine)

Both the illusion spells you mentioned (and fire shield) are personal, so your project image cannot cast them.

You are treating the second clause, “the project image can cast illusion spells on itself” as though it superseded the first clause “you can only cast spells with range of touch or greater through the project image.” This is not accurate.

The project image can only cast (on itself) illusion spells whose range is touch or greater. So no blade weave, claws of darkness, or shadow evocation fire shield. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200gp


We haven't started playing yet. We are all rather planners in the group and enjoy as much playing as planning the character beforehand. Many just start playing and decide on the fly which feats to take, but most of us in the group like to detail it with level 20 in mind, even before we start playing. Another player is planning on another Charisma based character, although more of a Marshal/Paladin/Crusader, focusing on White Raven maneuvers. I have conceded that she will take the Leadership feat instead of me. I was tempted to take it, but my character is rather selfish and hers is more like Captain America. So I thought she would be a better leader of the group and it would make sense that she took the leader ship feat (the DM only allows one character to take it).

Very nice description of your Black Eye. I am planning to do a similar thing and post it, once I have my character ready.
that’s the only way to play 3.5 without major headaches down the line. everything’s got to be mapped out if you want to qualify for things. glad you enjoyed it. can’t wait to see what you come up with.

[Lady Alysha]

Yes. You make the checks through it, but you are not allowed to use your own skill ranks because it doesn’t say you can.
You cannot use skills that can’t be used untrained through the simulacrum. Spock did not write the D&D rules, so his opinions are irrelevant.
Again, this is not a matter of opinion. It doesn’t say your simulacrum gets your skill ranks, so it doesn’t.


And which modifiers would you use? Yours (except for Strength)? The simulacrums (which except for Strength are not listed)? None? Even zero is a modifier. If you now say that you use your own modifiers (except for Strength skills), then I don't see why you shouldn't use your ranks as well. And some modifier you have to use, even if it is zero (which could be better than your own).



You are treating the second clause, “the project image can cast illusion spells on itself” as though it superseded the first clause “you can only cast spells with range of touch or greater through the project image.” This is not accurate.

The project image can only cast (on itself) illusion spells whose range is touch or greater. So no blade weave, claws of darkness, or shadow evocation fire shield. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200gp


I see your point. But it is not clear if it supersedes it or not. It could be interpreted both ways, I think. The first part says that any spell with range/touch can be made to ORIGINATE from the simulacrum. But a spell with a rang of personal, doesn't really originate from anywhere, because it doesn't get anywhere. I think it could be very well interpreted that in addition to that illusion spells are allowed if they are personal. (Hey, I think we should have studied law. I didn't know it could be that fun trying to interpret all periods, etc.)

The sad thing of your more limiting interpretation is, that there aren't really any useful illusion spells with range or touch that could benefit the simulacrum. I have done a search on the database and I really couldn't find a single one that I could see coming into play. I know, that's no excuse for interpreting rules one way or the other, but as I said above, it is not clear if only range/touch are allowed (superseding) or if personal illusion spells are allowed too (in addition). It can be interpreted both ways.

[Venger]

And which modifiers would you use? Yours (except for Strength)? The simulacrums (which except for Strength are not listed)? None? Even zero is a modifier. If you now say that you use your own modifiers (except for Strength skills), then I don't see why you shouldn't use your ranks as well. And some modifier you have to use, even if it is zero (which could be better than your own).
I won't, because you don't. The simulacrum doesn't have ability scores, so you use a 0, the mod for a nonability such as an undead's constitution.


I see your point. But it is not clear if it supersedes it or not. It could be interpreted both ways, I think. The first part says that any spell with range/touch can be made to ORIGINATE from the simulacrum. But a spell with a rang of personal, doesn't really originate from anywhere, because it doesn't get anywhere. I think it could be very well interpreted that in addition to that illusion spells are allowed if they are personal. (Hey, I think we should have studied law. I didn't know it could be that fun trying to interpret all periods, etc.)

The sad thing of your more limiting interpretation is, that there aren't really any useful illusion spells with range or touch that could benefit the simulacrum. I have done a search on the database and I really couldn't find a single one that I could see coming into play. I know, that's no excuse for interpreting rules one way or the other, but as I said above, it is not clear if only range/touch are allowed (superseding) or if personal illusion spells are allowed too (in addition). It can be interpreted both ways.

It is clear. The first clause is an independent statement.


If you desire, any spell you cast whose range is touch or greater can originate from the projected image instead of from you. The projected image can’t cast any spells on itself except for illusion spells.

You can only cast spells with touch or greater range.

Within the subset of spells with touch or greater range, the project image can only cast spells on itself which are of the illusion school.

Range touch or greater means no personal spells.

I have studied law. D&D rules are more complicated.

Again, this is not interpretation, this is what project image does.

Personal spells of any kind, including illusion, cannot be cast on the simulacrum. That's what "touch or greater" means.

I see little on the bard list that would be useful on your simulacrum aside from the x image line, but that's true pretty much regardless of class. use your slots on something else