Help with at disgruntled Druid Player

[AnimeTheCat]

Hey playground, so I'll preface this with: I've tried talking, emailing, teaching, and assisting OOC since the game began (6 Weeks), but this player still feels the way he feels.

I started a game over XBox Live with a group (3) of old friends of mine +1 of their friends I haven't had too much interaction with until now. My friends (the three of them) consist of a veteran player with a very solid grasp of the game who enjoys thematic play and pushing his character into the system to do what he wants, a player who's played a long time but has some slight disability so he forgets a lot of things (I manage his character sheet and dice and let him play how he wants to. Its taken a few years but this is the best way to make sure we all have fun), and a new player who's playing D&D for the first time and is picking up on the game pretty quickly (mechanically speaking). We'll call these players A, B, and C.

Player D is the individual that I've had the least interaction with before the game. He's a very relaxed and smart guy and He's played 3.5 for years. He knows the rules of the game but... for some reason he is always asking me to bend the rules.

The party is at level 2 now, about to be level 3 and consists of:
Player A is a Cleric/Monk progressing (more monk) towards Sacred Fist.
Player B is a Scout progressing towards Soulknife, Soulbow, and Illumen Soul.
Player C is a Ranger and is kind of just taking levels as he goes to learn about the system.
Player D is a Druid progressing towards Master of Many Forms and Warshaper.

Player D has 6 Strength because he's a gnome and didn't buy and points of strength since Wild Shape changes his strength. This backfired on him because he forgot that your strength penalty applies to ranged weapon damage rolls. As a small character using a sling, he deals 1d3-2 damage. If he uses Magic Stone, he deals 1d6-1 damage for each of the affected stones. Player D really doesn't like dealing low damage. I've given him the option of adjusting his ability scores and he has declined. That option is still advertised as at his disposal.

Player D also has only recently finished his character and animal companion (Session 6). I did a bad DM thing, a few sessions ago (Session 4), and got upset at him during the game and told him to either finish his character or don't play next session. Of course he was upset and I can't blame him, but he hadn't assigned feats, skill points, or tricks to his animal companion, nor did he have any information for his animal companion written down (I have no problem rolling for PCs as long as I know in advance, which I didn't). All Player D had prepared was his abilities, health, spells, and attacks/damages. I had dropped hints for the first 3 sessions that if he wanted help I would help and that he really needed to nail down his character before things got too in depth so as to preven metagaming. I have also provided him with a custom made animal companion tracker that includes the animal companion progression table and every trick with a brief description and the book it's in.

Other things Player D has done include complaining that his character is too weak and isn't an asset in combat, that he doesn't have enough spells, he can't do anything cool out of combat, his character is treated unfairly by NPCs and shop keepers, he doesn't have enough money/magic items, etc. I'm sure you're getting the idea.

To assist/help with feeling stronger and more of an asset in combat (as well as freeing up some spells) I went through and reviewed what spells he was regularly preparing. On a standard day he's preparing longstrider, aspect of the wolf, and magic fang in his first level spell slots. I suggested that instead of preparing aspect of the wolf (a self only, transformation buff spell that prevents further speaking/spellcasting) to prepare Entagle as a means to change the face of the battlefield. Instead of Longstrider (a single target, long lasting +10 speed buff) maybe try obscuring mist to grant 50% miss chance from foes and prevent you from being targeted by said foes for a period of time. One spell per battle could mean lasting three battles per day with each spell isntead of burning all spells in a single combat (round 1, magic fang on AC. Round 2 aspect of wolf. Round 3 fight).

For out of combat character interactions, I rarely involve dice rolls unless they're warrented (lying, bartering, etc.) but Player D will regularly walk in to a shop/smithy, tell the shopkeeper his wares look lame, and try to walk out with something. When I tell Player D to roll sleight of hand, he gets upset and says he should be able to just do it. Again, I know Player D knows the rules of the game, he's been playing for years. He's just choosing to ask me to bend them and getting upset when I don't, calling me a Rules Lawyer. Situations like these, where he insults shop keepers and others, leads him to say that I'm prejudice against his character and he's treated unfairly, when the NPCs kick him out of a shop or ignor him or walk away from him. Attempts to explain cause and affect have fallen on deaf ears and Player D continues to claim that I'm treating him unfairly.

Lastly, Player D constantly is asking for items that grant +4 strength, and when I tell him how much said item is he gets upset and says that's too much and asking if he can just "happen to find one" while adventuring. For those who don't know, a Belt of Giant's Strength +4 is 16,000 gp. The party is level 2. Additionally, Player D has a partial wand of Magic Stone, partial wand of Cure Light Wounds, Belt of Lifting (+1 strength for determining carrying), +1 Sling, and various potions (including but not limited to Cure Moderate Wounds, Dragon Breath - fire, and shield of faith). The party, as a whole, is not complaining about a lack of gear. Just Player D. The other players are all happy with their wealth, equipment, and characters.

All of this crazy long post to ask. What do I do from here?! I've tried OOC from the very beginning. I've dropped items to slightly mitigate the strength penalty. I've coached and assist with spell selection. I have not, however, budged on a strong adherance to the rules, especially bonus stacking and skill use. How do I further help this player though? I can't just grant extra spells, especially temporary ones, because his character by it's nature of being a druid, will be more powerful than the other three (probably combined) and will overshadow them at everything if i'm not careful. I can't afford to give free handouts to a character that already has the potential to out-combat the entire rest of the party alone.

Any assistance the playground can provide would be appreciated. Ancedotes that are similar are encouraged. I really just don't know what to do from this point as I've exhausted every other idea I have.

[Yahzi]

When I tell Player D to roll sleight of hand, he gets upset and says he should be able to just do it.
You can fix a lot of that stuff, but you can't fix this. The whole point of having dice is that you roll them.

He doesn't want to play D&D. He wants to play something else. Which is fine! But you're running D&D. I'd probably tell him, "You don't seem to like the rules of this game, so maybe you should try a different game. At a different time. With different people."

OK maybe not the last part. But still, he fundamentally doesn't want to play the game the rest of you are playing. He needs to find another game, and you should help start that quest by (gently) booting him from yours.

[Red Fel]

All of this crazy long post to ask. What do I do from here?! I've tried OOC from the very beginning. I've dropped items to slightly mitigate the strength penalty. I've coached and assist with spell selection. I have not, however, budged on a strong adherance to the rules, especially bonus stacking and skill use. How do I further help this player though? I can't just grant extra spells, especially temporary ones, because his character by it's nature of being a druid, will be more powerful than the other three (probably combined) and will overshadow them at everything if i'm not careful. I can't afford to give free handouts to a character that already has the potential to out-combat the entire rest of the party alone.

Any assistance the playground can provide would be appreciated. Ancedotes that are similar are encouraged. I really just don't know what to do from this point as I've exhausted every other idea I have.

Short version? Not your job.

You ask, "How do I help this player?" It sounds like you've done more than enough.

Seriously, it's like teaching a kid gratitude, here. Maybe he has it but refuses to show it. Maybe he doesn't have it. Maybe he'll have it later. Whatever the result, he's not grateful now, and there's very little you can do to force the issue.

You've done a lot for this player. But he simply wants. You give in on little things, he wants more. He wants to be able to steal with no skill check. He wants to just find loot because he asked. He wants to pick less-than-optimal spells he ends up blowing through, and gets frustrated when he does so. And yet, you keep accommodating him.

I'm not faulting you for that. Maybe I should, maybe I shouldn't, but I'm not. You're trying to make a positive experience for your player, and I can respect that.

But this is a player who will just keep wanting things, and not being grateful for what you've already done. And there's nothing more that you can really do, unless you're prepared to just give in on everything - a dangerous road to start down.

More importantly, however, is this - it's not your job. Your job, as DM, is to create a game world, to let the players have their fun in it, and to generally - generally, mind you - craft an experience that the players enjoy. This player, however, isn't asking for that - he's asking for specific benefits that his character hasn't earned, and that run afoul of the established rules. And it is not your job to provide that. Your job is to provide a positive experience for the table as a whole, not to yield to the demands of a single greedy player.

As such, you need to stop looking at this issue as "How do I help this player?" It's not your job to help him. It's your job to create a world in which he can find his own fun. Not to hand it to him on a silver platter.

[Crake]

Looks to me like the player built his character for the late game, and is annoyed because he has absolutely no early game. 6 strength is abhorrent, he could literally die in one hit from a shadow. Hell, he's complaining about a lack of gear at level 2, when he's got enough wbl almost for a level 3 character. WBL for level 2 is 900gp, level 3 is 2700gp, and he's got a +1 sling, which alone is worth 2300gp, not to mention the other stuff.

I have a player like this, and trust me, whatever you do, these players will always complain, find some reason to explain why the stuff going on isn't their fault. The best solution is to either ignore it, and laugh about it after the game with your friends, or, if it's ruining the game for you and the other players, simply drop him from the group.

I give this advice, because you've already said you've tried talking to him numerous times over the last 6 months and nothing's gotten through. In my book, anyone who tries to get away with stealing from NPCs without skill checks, builds characters with frankly obvious min-maxing, and then having the audacity to complain about his own choices, while simultaneously being offered to change them, and denying it clearly because he still wants to be min-maxed, and then trying to get an item that, not only would singificantly benefit other charaters far more than him, but is also way out of his wbl, and will be for quite some time, yeah.... As I said, either ignore him and laugh about it, or if it's bad enough, drop him.

[RoboEmperor]

What everyone else said. You are not interested in playing d&d so go away.

[Eldariel]

You could recommend him some alchemical items as weapons. Alchemist's Fire is a fine option for dealing damage on this level and he could just craft some himself as a spellcaster, doubly so with the Gnome Craft: Alchemy bonus. And unlike with normal weapons, there are no strength penalties to care about.

Also, his animal companion should already be able to do quite enough. Obviously Sling isn't going to do much with -2 Str and chances are he can't really get Light Crossbow proficiency. He could just buy or try to tame (the more Druid way) another couple of wild animals with Handle Animal and spend the actions handling those (once as a move action and once as a standard action used as a move action) instead of making inefficient attacks but c'est la vie.


But yeah, it sounds like you're doing all you can. Keep the conversation up and point him to this thread if that doesn't help. Though it sounds like more of a personality issue than any kind of game issue; he's made bad choices and he's intent on complaining instead of solving the things. There's no real reason for him to have any trouble in this case: the options to do Druidy things are right there for him and his character isn't made to throw Magic Stones no matter how much he'd like to. If he'd want to do that, he'd have needed to put a relatively high score in Strength and to waste all that by the time Wildshape comes in. Obviously if he's going to plan around wildshaping and dumping Str, he needs to play by that decision with all that entails.

This sounds like a psychological problem. It sounds like he's too deep in his defensive stance to even consider any faults in his own opinions or position. A psychological problem is probably best solved psychologically: perhaps he needs a fallback option without feeling he's losing face by "giving up"? Some feeling of compromise or being partially right or whatever. It would be hard to create such a circumstance but it could potentially get him to come around and to take steps to address the problem instead of complaining about things and expecting you to bend over backwards to accommodate him.

Perhaps some kind of chat about adjusting his expectations and introducing him (and perhaps the rest of the group) to the general framework of the system and the expectations of capability for each level could help here - as well as especially the fact that there's more to combat contribution than damage (this goes unnoticed way too often leading way too low a prestige for the controller Wizard and spells like Entangle in less experienced groups even though they might be pulling the heavy duty). Point out how a single Entangle can completely remove the enemies' capability to damage you and convert that to effective healing done, or even better, explain how he did the lion's share in killing said enemies without ever doing damage. It might also be useful to consider his decisions and point out that you generally have to give up competence in one domain for competence in other domain, and spell out the decisions he has made in his character creation.

This might work if he's a logical person, though it sounds like he might tend more towards the emotional end of the spectrum. The chat is unlike to be wasted anyways so perhaps consider having it but in his case if you can't get through to him otherwise and are intent on keeping him in the group, you might have to resort to manipulation and appealing to emotion and his desires rather than trying to rationally trying to make him see the big picture and understand the decisions he's making that are actively working against him. It's very hard to get someone firmly entrenched in their position to change their mind especially through reason, so some alternative paths may be necessary. Sadly I don't know him well enough to offer you much advise in this regard other than just try and make him feel like he's in the right without actually acceding to his demands.


EDIT: Basically though, his problem boils down to the fact that he feels he isn't contributing enough. You can attack this from two obvious angles.

One, try and teach him to define contribution beyond just damage and enable him to understand the whole of an encounter. His character will never do those massive damage numbers but he can contribute in any number of other ways. Emphasize the different roles and different ways to defeat or disable enemies and de-emphasize the importance of damage.

Two, point out the choices he made in character creation and how those contribute to him never dealing damage. Point out that while there's a good Magic Stone-build out there, that build would have a focus on strength and dexterity. Thus, if he wants to be good at Magic Stone he needs to either make difference choices in character creation or pick a different tactic. Tell him that if he wants to be the one dealing damage, those stat allocations will not work. Give him the tools to see other ways to contribute, such as the options I mentioned above and the other options in this thread.

None of this might get through to him but education is generally useful anyways.

[zlefin]

talk to the other players in the group about it. dropping him is hte best option if they're willing to go along with it.
he's just bad, there's nothing you can do to fix it; you've already tried what can be done.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat
I've tried talking, emailing, teaching, and assisting OOC since the game began (6 Weeks), but this player still feels the way he feels.

You have bent over backwards and then some for this player. From everything you describe, you have been more than accommodating; you have gone well out of your way to compensate for this player’s poor decisions and poor attitude, and still he’s not satisfied.


Originally Posted by Red Fel
But this is a player who will just keep wanting things, and not being grateful for what you've already done. And there's nothing more that you can really do, unless you're prepared to just give in on everything - a dangerous road to start down.


Originally Posted by Crake
I have a player like this, and trust me, whatever you do, these players will always complain….

I’ve also had players like this, and from personal experience I have to warn you that it will never get better. Once you give a little, they’ll quickly learn that you’ll give more if they keep pushing. There’s no incentive for them to stop pushing, and it will only get worse from here. For players like this, taking advantage of other people is second nature.

You should start thinking about a way to disengage him from the campaign, as gently as possible, because there are issues of player maturity here which won’t ever improve. You’ve done more than enough for this player already, and he can’t or won't recognize that. However you manage it, your campaign will be the better for his departure.

[Velaryon]

Crake nailed it. Player D built for mid to late levels, with a character who has nothing going until he reaches his prestige class. His complaint about gear is also expecting a higher-level item at a much lower level than such items are typically found. The solution is for him to be patient until he gets to the levels where his build starts to come online and his lack of options and low strength score no longer matter. He just isn't there yet.

That said, everything else you've told us about this player suggests that he might have a lower level of maturity than the rest of the group. It's entirely possible that when he does reach his first level of Master of Many Forms, he's going to just shift his complaints to something else. Now he will want to be able to turn into creatures that his class doesn't grant for 5 or 6 more levels. He may also ask you to waive the rule about items merging into his form, rather than continuing to work regardless of what he turns into (but he won't want to spend the money on Wilding Clasps of course, because that's just not fair).

With regard to the stealing from shops and getting mad when you tell him to make a roll, all you can do is try to put it in terms he understands in order to defuse his nonsensical argument that he's being singled out. He allocated his skill points to decide what he's good at. If he didn't put points into Sleight of Hand, it means he's not good at taking things. As for why a roll is required, it's a matter of fairness to the shopkeeper as well. If we had a rule where people could just take things without making a roll, what's to keep an enemy thief from taking away those gauntlets he wants so bad?

There's a fairly good chance that these issues are non-resolvable and you've got a player who just isn't compatible with your group. But I at least think it's worth pointing these things out to him first and seeing how he takes them.

[Venger]

boot him. this guy sucks, and you've made it clear that he isn't your annoying younger cousin that your mom is forcing you to include so you can use the rec room.

[AnimeTheCat]

Thanks everyone for the responses. Maybe a little of this post was me needing to vent about it. I'm glad to hear that other people have also encountered some variant of this player.

As much as it would relieve my headaches, kicking him out of the group would reduce the players to only 3, one of which has a changing schedule and sometimes can't make it. That's fine, I understand that life happens and you've gotta work to live. I don't have DMPCs as a hard fast rule as the story isn't about someone I make. I regularly include NPCs that the party can ask for assistance, pay for assistance, or coerce into assisting, but that doesn't make up for the only full casting character being removed from the group. Also, the other players (with the exception of the newest one, Player C) have all played with him before. I was actually able to have a conversation with Player A about Player D while this post stewed and it would appear that about 6-7 years ago, a DM spoiled Player D rotten with bending rules and vast amounts of Homebrew. I think, armed with this knowledge, I'm going to make another attempt at an OOC discussion now that I have a bit more information.

@Crake - Thanks for pointing out about his build. When I talk to him, I don't think I focus on the (relatively near) future of level 5+ as much as I should and could. Maybe taking that angle when I talk to him next I'll be able to quell his endless torrents of want. Hopefully, following this conversation, I'll be able to ignore it and we'll be able to laugh it off when he, and the rest of the group, hit their stride. It's also likely though, that he'll just start begging for XP... We'll see how it turns out.

@Eldariel - I think Alchemy/Alchemic weapons completely evaded me and him combined... That might work quite well actually. Unfortunately, with the Animal Companion, Player D doesn't feel that the things that his Animal Companion does are indication of his characters ability. I can understand that mindset, regardless of whether I agree with him or not. As stated above, I'm definitely keeping the channels of communication open.

Again, Thanks everyone who's responded and with any luck the player will come around to a more reasonable demeanor. If not, I guess I'll have to be a bit more drastic, but I hope it doesn't come to that. I'll update the thread once I start seeing an outcome.

[Crake]

Thanks everyone for the responses. Maybe a little of this post was me needing to vent about it. I'm glad to hear that other people have also encountered some variant of this player.

As much as it would relieve my headaches, kicking him out of the group would reduce the players to only 3, one of which has a changing schedule and sometimes can't make it. That's fine, I understand that life happens and you've gotta work to live. I don't have DMPCs as a hard fast rule as the story isn't about someone I make. I regularly include NPCs that the party can ask for assistance, pay for assistance, or coerce into assisting, but that doesn't make up for the only full casting character being removed from the group. Also, the other players (with the exception of the newest one, Player C) have all played with him before. I was actually able to have a conversation with Player A about Player D while this post stewed and it would appear that about 6-7 years ago, a DM spoiled Player D rotten with bending rules and vast amounts of Homebrew. I think, armed with this knowledge, I'm going to make another attempt at an OOC discussion now that I have a bit more information.

Trust me, 3 players are certainly workable, and considering neither master of many forms, nor warshaper advance spellcasting, he's far from being a full caster. He will hit 3rd level spells, then probably not even pick up natural spell, instead going for wildshape feats, because his spellcasting is gonna fall by the wayside.


@Crake - Thanks for pointing out about his build. When I talk to him, I don't think I focus on the (relatively near) future of level 5+ as much as I should and could. Maybe taking that angle when I talk to him next I'll be able to quell his endless torrents of want. Hopefully, following this conversation, I'll be able to ignore it and we'll be able to laugh it off when he, and the rest of the group, hit their stride. It's also likely though, that he'll just start begging for XP... We'll see how it turns out.

Speaking of his build, I did also notice that you said in another thread that master of many forms increases wildshape duration, while pretty much exactly quoting the druid's build. I'm not sure if it's a misconecption on your part, or a lie he told you, but master of many forms does not increase wildshape duration.

[AnimeTheCat]

Speaking of his build, I did also notice that you said in another thread that master of many forms increases wildshape duration, while pretty much exactly quoting the druid's build. I'm not sure if it's a misconecption on your part, or a lie he told you, but master of many forms does not increase wildshape duration.

It would appear that was a misconception on my part. I misread the last paragraph of the Improved Wildshape ability and thought it progressed with additional uses AND duration. Either way, he'll end up with multiple uses of the ability for 5 hours each. At level 3 of Master of Many Forms, he'll be able to be in wild shape basically all day if he wanted to. Thanks though, I appreciate it.

[Bronk]

You mentioned that you got on Player D's case about finishing character creation for his animal companion... did he ever actually get around to that? It's hard to see this guy trying to complain about dealing damage if he's got the equivalent to an extra personal fighter on his sheet. (As a gnome, it seems like the riding dog would be perfect for him at low levels)

Since you mentioned that he's almost level three, you could remind him he's about to get Bull's Strength for his +4 strength bonus. Oh, you could remind him he shares spells with his animal companion as well.

Also, just throwing this out there, there's also the possibility that he only think's he's a great player, and he hasn't really been playing 3.5 for a long time. Charitably, he might have played a few times, then read about about the game a few times on forums... enough to set his expectations too high. My advice is to not always assume he knows what he's doing. Uncharitably, well, good luck!

[Gnaeus]

Crake nailed it. Player D built for mid to late levels, with a character who has nothing going until he reaches his prestige class. His complaint about gear is also expecting a higher-level item at a much lower level than such items are typically found. The solution is for him to be patient until he gets to the levels where his build starts to come online and his lack of options and low strength score no longer matter. He just isn't there yet.

The extra stupid part (him not you, Velaryon) is that this isn't even true. A Str 6 Druid + pet is a very powerful (if vulnerable) level 1 character. His pet is likely more than equal to many level 1 martial characters in combat, or would be if he bothered to complete pet's stats. Wolf + buffbot druid is a killer combo. It is, in fact, one of the first characters I would play in a very low PB game, since all you need is decent wis and maybe con.

But anyway, agree with everyone else. If your description is correct, he's made a heavily min-maxed character while bitching about his own choices while not wanting to change them. Talk to him OOC. Tell him you aren't dropping requested gear and that stupid actions have consequences. And he can get with the program or leave.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Trust me, 3 players are certainly workable
Speaking as someone who's group just dropped to three, it's workable but fragile. Three people makes for a great game when you're all at the table, but if one person drops you pretty much have to reschedule-- that's such a large portion of the group, and the dynamics with just two players is so different-feeling, that it's hard to justify. With a base of four, losing one for the night doesn't feel like as big a deal.

[Ashtagon]

DMG 3.5e page 41:


If a player behaves in a way you don't want them to behave, talk to them about it. If they continue, stop playing with them.

By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

[Faily]

Player D also has only recently finished his character and animal companion (Session 6). I did a bad DM thing, a few sessions ago (Session 4), and got upset at him during the game and told him to either finish his character or don't play next session. Of course he was upset and I can't blame him, but he hadn't assigned feats, skill points, or tricks to his animal companion, nor did he have any information for his animal companion written down (I have no problem rolling for PCs as long as I know in advance, which I didn't). All Player D had prepared was his abilities, health, spells, and attacks/damages. I had dropped hints for the first 3 sessions that if he wanted help I would help and that he really needed to nail down his character before things got too in depth so as to preven metagaming. I have also provided him with a custom made animal companion tracker that includes the animal companion progression table and every trick with a brief description and the book it's in.



That kind of stuff right there is something that would make me just stop the game then and there and tell him to FINISH HIS FRIGGIN' CHARACTER SHEET! Geez, at level 2 there's not even that much to do! I get really upset when people haven't finished things when they sit down to play, and I do have one player in one of my groups who is notorious for "oh, I still haven't picked all my languages/skill points"... really gets on my nerves, especially when it comes up IC ("they speak to you in [language], do you know that?" "no, but I still haven't picked all my langauges yet, so now I do...").


This is the kind of player that I would just simply ask "do you *actually* want to play the game with us? Because it sure doesn't seem like it".

[Zombulian]

DMG 3.5e page 41:



By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

This is gold.

[Crake]

Speaking as someone who's group just dropped to three, it's workable but fragile. Three people makes for a great game when you're all at the table, but if one person drops you pretty much have to reschedule-- that's such a large portion of the group, and the dynamics with just two players is so different-feeling, that it's hard to justify. With a base of four, losing one for the night doesn't feel like as big a deal.

We have one person who works shifts, so we generally schedule the game during the week when we know everyone can make it, and rarely have someone cancel. Usually if they cancel, yeah, we reschedule, but we'd do that for even a 4 man group, because we don't like playing when someone's not there. Nobody likes to have their character NPCed or simply ignored for a session. If anything, by that logic, 3 people is easier, because there are less people to have to schedule around. Do you have a significant problem with people having to reschedule on you? I suppose if you dedicate a specific night a week, then that might be an issue, if people can't avoid, but we solve that by just scheduling whenever everyone's free in any particular week, rather than making it a specific night of the week.

[icefractal]

It's not even like low-Strength Gnome Druid is a weak start! It's a fairly powerful and versatile build even at 1st level ... unless you expect to be kicking ass in melee from the start, which apparently he does.

Simply put, his expectations are way too high; he's probably looking at a 20th level build and trying to play like he already has that.

Having him play a Barbarian or something until 5th level and then switch back to the Druid may be giving him too much benefit, but at least it would probably stop his whining ... for now. He'll probably start again when he's 10th level and wants to already have the full MoMF and Warshaper benefits.

[Chronikoce]

I have to say that everyone here seems far more tolerant than me.

You seem to have done an immense amount to help him.

With regard to incomplete characters. I have a player like this, I've honestly given up trying to get him to finish leveling. The difference is that my player doesn't ask for special treatment. He just goes, "woops I forgot to level. I guess my skills will suck again tonight."

As for the rest, this sounds like someone who I would personally stop playing with. After 6 months of gaming an no improvement I'd be completely over and done with him.

[Venger]

I have to say that everyone here seems far more tolerant than me.

it's unfortunately very common (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html) in our culture

[AnimeTheCat]

I have to say that everyone here seems far more tolerant than me.

You seem to have done an immense amount to help him.

With regard to incomplete characters. I have a player like this, I've honestly given up trying to get him to finish leveling. The difference is that my player doesn't ask for special treatment. He just goes, "woops I forgot to level. I guess my skills will suck again tonight."

As for the rest, this sounds like someone who I would personally stop playing with. After 6 months of gaming an no improvement I'd be completely over and done with him.

Well, I'm very used to being patient in my job (basically glorified customer service) and I'm used to reaching new players the ropes. It takes a lot over a long period of time to get under my skin.

In other news, the talk with the player went well! The player said a little alchemic flair reflufed as herbalism type. Alchemists flame is nature fire. Exactly the same effect, just a different name with his own flare. We also went through the majority of the druid spells together and picked out some that will benefit the party and fit his characters theme.

We'll find out this weekend if he follows through, but I'm going to keep hope alive.

[Faily]

Hope for your sake it works out then. :smallsmile:

[arkangel111]

Drop a rumor about an incredible magic item that boosts his STR (+4) like he wants. Make sure said item is far away and in an appropriate level dungeon, let them level on the way some. In nearest town make sure you name drop the kind and level of monsters they will face. Have a few other adventures and missions planned to level them before facing it. Done he's happy your happy have fun gaming.

[Jarmen4u]

Honestly I'd just give him whatever he wants. Bear with me for a second. I know some kinds of people who are really needy and demanding like this. One guy kept asking for specific magic items, and threw a fit when I didn't give them anything special. Eventually, I got so annoyed that I just gave him the item. After that point, I just gave him every single thing he asked for. He was really confused at first, excited for a while, and quickly grew bored of it. He lashed out at me, assuming I was giving him cursed items or something. In reality, I was just giving him what he asked for. It took out all the challenge from the game. He ended up quitting after a few more games. Not saying this will work for you, but something similar might. Give him cursed items that do what he wants, but then has some negative effect. Or make it so rumors spread of a weak forest weirdo with a crapload of magical loot, and send loads of bandits after him. Specifically him. Set up a caravan raid, have enemies constantly trying to steal from him. That's one way to do it if you want to attempt to solve the problem in game. You might want to explain it to your other players beforehand so they don't get jealous or think you're pandering to him simply because he's complaining a lot.

[Eldariel]

Well, I'm very used to being patient in my job (basically glorified customer service) and I'm used to reaching new players the ropes. It takes a lot over a long period of time to get under my skin.

In other news, the talk with the player went well! The player said a little alchemic flair reflufed as herbalism type. Alchemists flame is nature fire. Exactly the same effect, just a different name with his own flare. We also went through the majority of the druid spells together and picked out some that will benefit the party and fit his characters theme.

We'll find out this weekend if he follows through, but I'm going to keep hope alive.

Great! You might also want to talk to him about spontaneous summons (basic Druid class feature off a good list) and how everything he does including class features such as Animal Companion and Summons, and actions he takes such as taming wild animals is in effect his character's contribution.

As a Druid much of whose power is in those class features and buffing his animals, it would be important that he understood his contributions more broadly. That things like Entangle can be more valuable than any amount of damage, and that buffing his animal companion and letting it do the damage and potential trip/grapple/whatever is still him contributing.

[Sam K]

Short version?
You ask, "How do I help this player?"

Would "euthanasia" be considered too evil an answer?

[CozJa]

Player D doesn't feel that the things that his Animal Companion does are indication of his characters ability. I can understand that mindset, regardless of whether I agree with him or not.

Considering this, the fact that he wants to enter classes that will not advance his spellcasting and neither his animal companion, the additionalt fact that you never spoke about him using his spontaneous summons in battle, and that it took him half a game life to (not) build his pet... have you thought about suggesting the Druidic avenger variant from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm)? In that way he could buff and fight (only once a day, but it's better then nothing...) with at least a 10 STR

[RoboEmperor]

I really did have a long post prepared, but in the end, this player truly is unplayable, at which point I realized the long post would never stop growing, so I stopped.

I had a player who went frenzied berserker, and flatout refused to spend any wealth on helping the party deal with his frenzies. He was a money hoarding piece of ****, and whenever he wanted something, I would tell him how much such an item would cost, and he'd throw a ****ing fit saying it's too expensive. He'd go on saying how enlarging a person is the same as enlarging an item so instead of using Shrink Item as a baseline for a custom item, he'd yell saying it should be enlarge person.

In addition, he completely disregarded all rules. If there's something he wanted, he'd say to me **** your rules, i want the DM to homebrew it, and make it super cheap. I wasn't the DM mind you, i was a player helping him achieve what he wants within the rules, but nope, he wanted everything catered to his will. What's the point of playing a game if you're going to ignore every rule? Just cheat your way into becoming a god and end the game right then and their you ****.

From what you said, you've truly been one of the best DMs I've seen, and I'd only expect less than half of your generosity with good DMs.

So you need to tell him that we are playing a game, and a game without rules is meaningless. Stop trying to cheat you ****ing cheater. Stop trying to make me break every rule and guideline in the game just so you can feel like a god. You intentionally chose to have crappy strength, so it's not my fault you do no damage and i'm certainly not going to hand you 16,000gp because you decided to be a min/maxing piece of ****. You want higher strength? Cough up the dough, lower your other ability scores or shut the **** up and deal with the choices you made. I told you how to be impactful in combat, but if you choose to not pick the better spells then shut the **** up and live with the choices you made. I'm not playing with a cheating mother ****er who wants me to hand him free stuff so he can feel like a god during the bad part of his min/max munchkin build.

[AnimeTheCat]

Great! You might also want to talk to him about spontaneous summons (basic Druid class feature off a good list) and how everything he does including class features such as Animal Companion and Summons, and actions he takes such as taming wild animals is in effect his character's contribution.

As a Druid much of whose power is in those class features and buffing his animals, it would be important that he understood his contributions more broadly. That things like Entangle can be more valuable than any amount of damage, and that buffing his animal companion and letting it do the damage and potential trip/grapple/whatever is still him contributing.


Considering this, the fact that he wants to enter classes that will not advance his spellcasting and neither his animal companion, the additionalt fact that you never spoke about him using his spontaneous summons in battle, and that it took him half a game life to (not) build his pet... have you thought about suggesting the Druidic avenger variant from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm)? In that way he could buff and fight (only once a day, but it's better then nothing...) with at least a 10 STR

We have talked long and hard about spontaneous summons, but of course I failed to mention that. Derp! He hates the full round casting time and refuses to use them. Not really a problem as they aren't all that spectacular at level 1 or 2. Long casting time plus a short duration for a fairly lackluster animal assistant. He likes his animal companion, but the problem is that he doesn't see it as a class feature, and more like a member of the party. Since it's an animal we discussed that it's behavior, outside of his orders and direction, is up to me since I control all the NPCs. I'm ok with this because he's basically always ordering it around. It leaves me with very little influence. He intends on getting a fleshraker at level 4 (I think it's level 4... not 100%... I'll need to get that nailed down soon...) but then when he can wildshape, he's planning on wildshaping into a fleshraker and doing dual fleshraker nonsense, which I'm also ok with.

During Session Zero we talked about druidic avenger, but ultimately he didn't like the flavor. I'm hoping that in the coming session he'll be happier with his contributions. I'm sure he'll still complain about gear, but that's honestly every player in the history of D&D. What player doesn't want gear. The more outrageous it is, the more justified I am in telling him no lol. It is a lot easier to justify telling someone no to a +4 ability score item than it is to tell someone no to a potion or wand of CLW or Lesser Vigor.

Alternatively, since he is more keen on fighting right now, I suggested that he be a wild shape ranger, bump up his strength, and use a two handed weapon until he can wild shape. He will still get his AC if he wants it too, just a little behind in the progression (solved easily with a feat). He was interested in the idea, but didn't like the idea of giving up his spells.

I learned that his favorite character was with the DM that spoiled him. He played a wizard that took lots of item creation feats, they didn't use XP so no delayed leveling for the character, and the DM showered them with gold from a very early level (200K at level 3 for the 4 person party...). In that DM's defence, I think he was new and didn't realize the mistake until too late. While just making magic items wouldn't have been bad, he was making multi-spell wands where a single charge would cast 3-5 spells at once. I'm beginning to see why everything was the way it was and i have found my calm in the storm again.

I'll probably post again after the game to share if the conversation made any difference. Thanks again for all the input!

[Eldariel]

You can easily point out that none of those creatures would be with the party or doing the things they're doing (animal companions, wild animals with Handle Animal/Wild Empathy, summons, etc.) - they wouldn't really even exist - if not for his character. They're basically just extensions of his character and the AC particularly shows this particularly with the Share Spells feature, though of course that takes off later.

You might want to suggest that he stick with Druid since the party might need Restorations, Reincarnates, Last Breath [Spell Compendium - if allowed] and company down the line, and Enhance Wildshape [Spell Compendium], Greater Magic Fang, Barkskin and company give him plenty of Wildshape benefits while gaining higher caster level and spell levels too. And someone to use Wands of Lesser Vigor/Cure Light Wounds. And there's the use of Animal Growth particularly if he shepherds a bunch of thingies with the party in the Wilds.

[Goaty14]

I think that this player wants to be really good and generally Char-Op his character such that he's generally trouncing over encounters (as high-level players generally do) but is severely disappointed that he's level 2 and has a 1/3 chance of dealing 1 damage.

Generally (IMO) a good idea is to compare him to the rest of the party, and show him that, while he might not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, his teammates might not exactly be world-enders in comparison.

Otherwise it could be that the player constantly wants to improve, and could be less interested in his character staying the same.

[Bronk]

when he can wildshape, he's planning on wildshaping into a fleshraker and doing dual fleshraker nonsense, which I'm also ok with.

You might want to decide beforehand if you're okay with the 'venomfire' spell, then.

[AnimeTheCat]

Well...

Game session went great! The player ended up spending down-time crafting glass orbs full of various concotions from Craft (alchem) that did various things like Alchemist's Flame and acid, but also "smoke bombs", "Flash-Bangs" (failed save dazzles the enemy, DC is 15. We decided that Base DC 12 and if he wanted higher it would add +1 to the craft DC), Thunderstones, and tanglefoot "orbs" (as the tanglefoot bag but only affects a single 5 ft square, and causes it's effect over a small period of time base 1 round, +1 round meant +2 to the craft DC. He made them for 3 rounds). When they adventured off, he prepared magic fang for his wolf, entangle, and Produce Flame. Overall though, I didn't hear any complaints except for when the scout missed a trap and the second person in line set it off shooting darts at the whole party. That complaining wasn't at me though, mostly at the scout and he wasn't the only one complaining at the scout.

I'm not entirely sure what happened, what I said differently, or what changed in the person's mind, but hopefully this isn't a temporary change. Thanks again for all the words of wisdom, assurance, and help. It all made me feel much better.

[Eldariel]

Sounds wonderful! If the change isn't permanent, you can always try and have a more in-depth chat about gauging your expectations and defining your contributions; but if it's not necessary, all the better! Glad to hear things worked out. Those bonuses you allowed for DCs with Craft checks will get really strong in the long run; normally the increments to improve items are more along the lines of +5 or +10. But that would be inaccessible on this level and it's probably fine if nobody goes around abusing them with skill boosting spells or such - and if someone does, you can just give diminishing returns; +1 to DC is +1 DC, +2 is +2 DC, etc. Thus +3 DC would be +6 total making it hard to scale very high giving it a sort of a cap. Then again, higher level alchemy could use a boost so it might also be interesting to roll with it. Just, a Wizard going Int-focused and maxing the skill could do pretty ridiculous DCs and durations, let alone with items and spells boosting the check.

[AnimeTheCat]

Sounds wonderful! If the change isn't permanent, you can always try and have a more in-depth chat about gauging your expectations and defining your contributions; but if it's not necessary, all the better! Glad to hear things worked out. Those bonuses you allowed for DCs with Craft checks will get really strong in the long run; normally the increments to improve items are more along the lines of +5 or +10. But that would be inaccessible on this level and it's probably fine if nobody goes around abusing them with skill boosting spells or such - and if someone does, you can just give diminishing returns; +1 to DC is +1 DC, +2 is +2 DC, etc. Thus +3 DC would be +6 total making it hard to scale very high giving it a sort of a cap. Then again, higher level alchemy could use a boost so it might also be interesting to roll with it. Just, a Wizard going Int-focused and maxing the skill could do pretty ridiculous DCs and durations, let alone with items and spells boosting the check.

I'm not too worried about it. He has 2 ranks in craft (alchemy), 14 (I think) int, and was barely able to make 2 of each in the two week downtime they had so I don't think it's going to be overboard. If I start to see him sinking lots of point in to it, I could change the returns. As of level 5+ I don't know how often this will get used.

He first has to make the specialized bullets, I made these a DC 18 as they are high quality, thin, glass bulbs to hold the components of the Craft (alchemy) check. Two different crafts, thus if he doesn't have the bullet, he has to throw the vial which he can either craft of buy.

[Eldariel]

I'm not too worried about it. He has 2 ranks in craft (alchemy), 14 (I think) int, and was barely able to make 2 of each in the two week downtime they had so I don't think it's going to be overboard. If I start to see him sinking lots of point in to it, I could change the returns. As of level 5+ I don't know how often this will get used.

He first has to make the specialized bullets, I made these a DC 18 as they are high quality, thin, glass bulbs to hold the components of the Craft (alchemy) check. Two different crafts, thus if he doesn't have the bullet, he has to throw the vial which he can either craft of buy.

That's all good then. Glad you have it working in your favour. Yeah, it's probably not that big of a deal post-5 but it'll get him started nicely. But yeah, definitely the returns are too high for use with someone maxing the skill but for this kind of a special circumstance, they'll probably function just fine.