Pathfinder counterspelling as an idiot

[BearonVonMu]

In Pathfinder, the way to counterspell is to hold your action for an enemy to cast a spell, make a spellcraft check to see what they are casting, and then attempt to counter it (or not).
What if you're an idiot? The character, I mean.
You've encountered this opponent before and are pretty sure you know what he's going to cast: fireball.
So instead of waiting for the spellcraft check (that you would not pass anyway), as soon as he begins to cast, you counter with a fireball.
I'm figuring that if the enemy was indeed casting fireball, that it would be countered with impressive (perhaps disheartening) speed, but what if he wasn't casting fireball?
Does my counter fizzle? Does the enemy receive my fireball as he is casting something else, needing a concentration check to finish his spell?

[MesiDoomstalker]

If you don't pass the Spellcraft check (and are not using Dispel Magic to counter), you don't counter anything. Plain and simple. Doesn't matter if you specifically prep to counter with Fireball.

[Crake]

In Pathfinder, the way to counterspell is to hold your action for an enemy to cast a spell, make a spellcraft check to see what they are casting, and then attempt to counter it (or not).
What if you're an idiot? The character, I mean.
You've encountered this opponent before and are pretty sure you know what he's going to cast: fireball.
So instead of waiting for the spellcraft check (that you would not pass anyway), as soon as he begins to cast, you counter with a fireball.
I'm figuring that if the enemy was indeed casting fireball, that it would be countered with impressive (perhaps disheartening) speed, but what if he wasn't casting fireball?
Does my counter fizzle? Does the enemy receive my fireball as he is casting something else, needing a concentration check to finish his spell?

Check this out: If you counter a spell, their action is cancelled, BUT, if you instead just go ahead and cast that fireball FIRST, the enemy caster needs to pass a concentration check with a DC of 10+damage+spell level. With a check of CL+ability modifier, if you deal enough damage, they'll fail their check 100%, so you get a double whammy, you cancel their spell, AND deal damage!

To answer your actual question though, your counter would just fizzle. When countering, you're slightly changing the casting to produce a countering effect, but if there's nothing to counter, then the spell just fizzles and does nothing. Nevermind, according to the quote Psyren supplied, you need to identify the spell to counter it, presumably because you need to fine tune your counter to the enemy's spellcasting.

[Psyren]

You must identify the spell to counter it:


If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent’s spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can’t do either of these things.

Even if your character knows they're going to cast fireball, you must still identify the spell. You can explain this in-universe a number of ways - for example, you might know they are casting fireball, but to disrupt the flow of energy, you have to know exactly where they are in the casting process so that you can insert your own magic at the right moment. A successful Spellcraft check is what relays this information to you.

Note that a Ring of Counterspells with Fireball in it can counter any fireballs he casts at you whether you identify them or not, so that would be the "idiot solution."



Does the enemy receive my fireball as he is casting something else, needing a concentration check to finish his spell?

That's not how counterspells work. When you counter a fireball with fireball, you're not actually casting a fireball of your own. You're casting your version of the spell in such a way that it disrupts the real one, but not in such a way that you also shoot fire out. There is no physical disruption or damage coming from you.

[bahamut920]

It seems reasonable to assume that just like every spellcaster has a slightly different way of copying spells into his spellbook/scribing scrolls, every spellcaster has an ever so slightly unique way of casting the same spells. And if you need to cast the modified counterspell at exactly the right time to disrupt a spell casting, that specific point in time might be different for each caster and each spell.

Think of it sort of like playing an opposite-frequency sound to cancel a sound already happening. If you do it even slightly wrong, you're just adding to the noise, not stopping it.

[BearonVonMu]

Fair enough. The thought chain I had been following was that the spellcraft check was to correctly identify the spell, nothing more. Granted, this would have meant I had a significant chance to guess wrong.
It also perhaps helps that the wand I'm going to use to counterspell the fireball with is the opponent's bonded item (wand of fireball). I stole it from him earlier.
So the new plan will be to hold my action for him to cast, attempt to make the spellcraft check, and kick off a fireball with either success or failure. Either it will be a counterspell or a concentration check for him that way.

[Psyren]

You can't counterspell using an item - you must do so using your own slots.


If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (or have a slot of the appropriate level available), you cast it, creating a counterspell effect.

[Eldariel]

Fair enough. The thought chain I had been following was that the spellcraft check was to correctly identify the spell, nothing more. Granted, this would have meant I had a significant chance to guess wrong.
It also perhaps helps that the wand I'm going to use to counterspell the fireball with is the opponent's bonded item (wand of fireball). I stole it from him earlier.
So the new plan will be to hold my action for him to cast, attempt to make the spellcraft check, and kick off a fireball with either success or failure. Either it will be a counterspell or a concentration check for him that way.

The best option is indeed to ready action and just blast him as hard as you can to disturb the concentration. Whether you guess right or not, very high chance of the concentration being broken and a significant chunk of damage in any case.

EDIT: Though to be clear, I would allow counterspelling blind as a readied action even though it's not RAW; doesn't break anything and logically makes sense. But only from a character who can shape magic in a manner needed to accomplish this.

[Mehangel]

The best option is indeed to ready action and just blast him as hard as you can to disturb the concentration. Whether you guess right or not, very high chance of the concentration being broken and a significant chunk of damage in any case.

I have to agree, usually the best way to deal with enemy casters is just to: readied action, cast spell X if enemy tries to cast a spell.

[Psyren]

You can and should be taking precautions against being blasted in the face though - it's a very common source of damage. Counterspelling has the advantage in that there's practically no way of stopping it, especially if they are doing a direct counter or special counter (e.g. daylight to counter a darkness spell.) And it's something even lower-level spellcasters, like acolyte/cultist minions, can pull off.