building a perfect weapon

[Stryyke]

I have 16000 gp to work with, and free adamantium from a scrap weapon I'm currently using. I got a pretty good item I would like to use, however I cannot use 2 handed weapons with it. So I need to turn my adamantium great sword, into a one handed weapon that would rock during grapples.

First party enchantments only, but all first party sources are on the table. 3.5 is the system we are using.

I was thinking of a hammer, since bludgeoning can bypass some DR. Any cool ideas would be welcome, though. I am not oppose to crit fishing, as the other item I just got guarantees 17 non-weapon damage per round during grapples no matter what. Most enemies we are facing right now have around 100 hp.

I would like the item to help in this next battle. An ogre gang screwed up a quest we just finished, and we are going to (try to) wipe them out. After some scouting, we have (at least) 46 Ogres to combat. That is certainly far beyond our capability as a group, so any edge we can get will be vital.

I am an Ogre cleric, we have a range focused troll, a flying half-fiend bard, a bugbear barbarian, a human/rat lycantropic rogue, and a new character who is some sort of snake person fighter. Yea, it sounds like we are going to get stomped pretty bad. But it's been decided.

[ExLibrisMortis]

17 damage per round against 100 hp enemies, and you have to grapple them? That's not even close to worth giving up your two-hander for. I recommend selling the item and upgrading your 2h some. And don't grapple unless you're optimized for it, it's a trap. You're going to need Improved Grab + Constrict + Multigrab minimum to get grappling, because otherwise you'll just be too vulnerable and too weak, against 46 ogres or 46 of anything.

Okay, with that out of the way...

If you absolutely must have a grappling weapon, you need a light weapon. Short swords and kukri are traditional, but light maces will do just fine. The last resort property (CW) removes the -4 penalty on attack rolls for using a light weapon in a grapple. At that point, you're already some 8000 gp into your budget, so there's no room for another +1 (which would bring the price up to 18 000 gp), but you could add a lesser crystal of energy assault to get a bit more damage.

[Stryyke]

17 damage per round against 100 hp enemies, and you have to grapple them? That's not even close to worth giving up your two-hander for. I recommend selling the item and upgrading your 2h some. And don't grapple unless you're optimized for it, it's a trap. You're going to need Improved Grab + Constrict + Multigrab minimum to get grappling, because otherwise you'll just be too vulnerable and too weak, against 46 ogres or 46 of anything.

Okay, with that out of the way...

If you absolutely must have a grappling weapon, you need a light weapon. Short swords and kukri are traditional, but light maces will do just fine. The last resort property (CW) removes the -4 penalty on attack rolls for using a light weapon in a grapple. At that point, you're already some 8000 gp into your budget, so there's no room for another +1 (which would bring the price up to 18 000 gp), but you could add a lesser crystal of energy assault to get a bit more damage.

I understand what you are saying, but the item is a unique item created specifically for my character. I would like to utilize it. I don't have cleave anyway, so grappling is as good as anything. With my build, I had +22 to att during my last encounter, so a -4 wouldn't really be an issue. I'm an ogre, so I would have somewhere in the vicinity of +30 to my grapple attempt anyway.

Damage wise, 17 + the dmg from whatever weapon I use would be perfectly comparable to a crit from a greatsword anyway. Also, against 46 ogres, grappling would be a great defensive approach to combat. Any attack someone not in the grapple attempted, would have a chance to hit the ogre I'm grappling. I don't have a dex bonus anyway, so that won't be an issue.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm not saying you shouldn't use a unique custom item--of course you should--but make sure you know what you're getting into. 46 ogres will have you for breakfast if you think you can grapple them all.


I don't have cleave anyway, so grappling is as good as anything.
Uh, no. Not at all. Cleave has nothing to do with it. Grappling is beaten by freedom of movement (and heart of water), doesn't allow you to get two-handed damage benefits (Power Attack returns, 1.5*STR on damage), and leaves you flat-footed, (nearly) immobile, and exposed to the other 45 ogres. Specialized grappling builds can work, but they require significant investment, and a way around FoM.


Damage wise, 17 + the dmg from whatever weapon I use would be perfectly comparable to a crit from a greatsword anyway.
A greatsword crit from an ogre should be (3d6+20)*2 or so (22 STR, PA for -5 atk/+10 dmg, +1 magic weapon), which is an average of 61. I don't think you're going to get 44 damage out of a light weapon. You might just get the 14 damage to equal a noncritical hit, but since you won't get AoOs, you'll also be making fewer attacks, and at that -4 penalty (or you pay to remove it, which costs you a +1 property on your greatsword). Finally, there's this: It takes a low-damage round to set up a grapple, unless you have Improved Grab. Without it, your initial touch attack doesn't do any damage.


Also, against 46 ogres, grappling would be a great defensive approach to combat. Any attack someone not in the grapple attempted, would have a chance to hit the ogre I'm grappling. I don't have a dex bonus anyway, so that won't be an issue.
Grappling is literally the worst way to be defensive against overwhelming numbers. Do you think the ogres care about accidentally hitting their friend? There's 45 more of them, they can afford to take chances (or deal nonlethal damage). Meanwhile, it's free sneak attack on your exposed back, and you're not casting spells or making AoOs to discourage them from surrounding you and beating you to a pulp. Hell, they can just grapple you four at the time, and spread the damage amongst them, because you won't be able to stop them retreating when at half health.

[Anxe]

Are Armor Spikes an option? That seems like the most obvious grapple weapon.

[JyP]

unique custom item for an ogre grappler ? seems like an Adamantium Gauntlet (+1) of Ogre Power would be cool.

large gauntlet : 4 gp
adamantium weapon : +3,000 gp
+3 Str : 9,000 gp
+1 weapon : 2,000 gp x1.5 (multiple different abilities cost)
total 15,004 gp.

even better would be a weapon of legacy, as you can really tailor the weapon to your needs with minimal cost. But you need DM approval for this.

[Goaty14]

ExLibisMortis has a point. Grappling a single enemy won't do much in your favor. You lose Dex to AC (and since this is a gang, that opens up opportunities sneak attack), and I think I saw the other thread which mentioned you fighting in a doorway..? Which also means that you would be fighting the person you're grappling AND the guys behind him, not to mention how bad grapple modifiers are.

You're probably just better power attacking the ones at the doorway, so you can fight one at a time.

[Eldariel]

I second this: grapple is a 1v1 tactic. Against melee, you are essentially flat-footed vs. other enemies while grappling and do reduced damage to boot. I'd instead recommend cutting them down as fast as possible.

Make use of your size and Strength. Is there another reason you can't 2-hand? Get a Guisarme (2d6+15 or something) or a Greatsword (3d6+15 averages 25 damage; you only need a minor buff or Power Attack to oneshot normal Ogres with average rolls). Guisarme would let you use your reach to get free AOO per round, Greatsword would maximize your chances of killing one per hit. Slam some damaging and utility enhancements on them and profit.

Guisarme with +1 Collision would do 2d6+21 or 28 average. If you cast e.g. Divine Favor or such, you would be oneshotting 29 HP Ogres without PA. With PA, it would be reliable. 2 ogres dead per turn (one to attack, one to AOO - if you can get iteratives, you can probably kill 1 more).

Though that's 18000gp. For 16000gp, perhaps a simple +1 Huge Guisarme/Greatsword and get Strongarm Bracers (MIC) to wield it with no penalties. +2 Str item could also help if you lack one thus far.

[Stryyke]

The reason for only using a 1 handed weapon is that the unique item is a gauntlet closed in a fist. If I use the gauntlet, I cannot use a 2 handed weapon, or really manipulate anything with my off-hand. My Dex is 6, so I would be better off flat-footed. And I wouldn't expose myself to swarms of attackers, if I am right outside the door, holding an ogre in the doorway.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The reason for only using a 1 handed weapon is that the unique item is a gauntlet closed in a fist. If I use the gauntlet, I cannot use a 2 handed weapon, or really manipulate anything with my off-hand. My Dex is 6, so I would be better off flat-footed. And I wouldn't expose myself to swarms of attackers, if I am right outside the door, holding an ogre in the doorway.
Don't forget that you don't lose your dexterity penalty when flat-footed. You only lose a bonus. You'd still get -2 DEX to flat-footed AC, and you'd be vulnerable to sneak attack as well.

The ogre in the doorway can simply move you, either to push you out or to drag you inside. An ogre beyond the doorway can Bull Rush you out of the doorway. Or, you know, they close off the door and flip some tables to build barricades, and when you try to get in, there's 40 ogres with cover and a readied action to put a Large javelin through your head.

[Stryyke]

Don't forget that you don't lose your dexterity penalty when flat-footed. You only lose a bonus. You'd still get -2 DEX to flat-footed AC, and you'd be vulnerable to sneak attack as well.

The ogre in the doorway can simply move you, either to push you out or to drag you inside. An ogre beyond the doorway can Bull Rush you out of the doorway. Or, you know, they close off the door and flip some tables to build barricades, and when you try to get in, there's 40 ogres with cover and a readied action to put a Large javelin through your head.

That's part of the item. I'm immune to bull rush, tripping, over-run, or any attempt to move me while wearing it. In addition, anyone participating in the grapple takes an automatic 17 pts of damage before any attack. It also gives me an additional +5 on all grapple related rolls. With my friends (hopefully) dealing with the ogres in the courtyard, I shouldn't have anything at my back. And if they bar themselves in the building, we'll just burn it down around their heads.

[ExLibrisMortis]

That's part of the item. I'm immune to bull rush, tripping, over-run, or any attempt to move me while wearing it. In addition, anyone participating in the grapple takes an automatic 17 pts of damage before any attack. It also gives me an additional +5 on all grapple related rolls. With my friends (hopefully) dealing with the ogres in the courtyard, I shouldn't have anything at my back. And if they bar themselves in the building, we'll just burn it down around their heads.
Ah. That would've been good to put in the OP, because it's quite a powerful ability.

If you're immune to being moved, then I suppose blocking the door becomes viable, though you don't have to be in a grapple to do it. Just use a tower shield to get total cover while you occupy the door. That way, you are completely immune to being moved (from your magic item), and you can't be attacked, except by targeted spells, thanks to your shield.

[Stryyke]

Ah. That would've been good to put in the OP, because it's quite a powerful ability.

If you're immune to being moved, then I suppose blocking the door becomes viable, though you don't have to be in a grapple to do it. Just use a tower shield to get total cover while you occupy the door. That way, you are completely immune to being moved (from your magic item), and you can't be attacked, except by targeted spells, thanks to your shield.

Hypothetically, wouldn't a grappled ogre provide the same defense as a tower shield?

[Thunder999]

Hypothetically, wouldn't a grappled ogre provide the same defense as a tower shield?

Nope, tower shields are special, they grant total cover (the same as being behind a solid wall does), an enemy would provide only normal cover, which just makes you harder to hit (to the tune of +4 AC), this is nowhere near as good.

[Anxe]

Grappling isn't optimal except in niche cases, but its what your character does. Let's focus on making that better.

Adamantine Armor spikes would be nice, but they weigh twice as much as a greatsword. Are adamantine capped spikes an option?