ECL 9, I'm sick of characters dying. I need one that can't die (no cheese)

[Stryyke]

My other character is about to attack 46 ogres, so he will almost certainly die. That would make my 8th character in the last year. They just keep dying to weird circumstances. My rogue, for example, rolled 4 "1's" in a row on a D20 and died of fall damage. My bard was turned to stone fleeing from a cockatrice, after killing 3 of them. My monk died when he failed the second poison save after the group took down a purple worm. The group didn't hear him hit the floor, and left him alone and helpless in the dungeon. (of course they were all killed by an ooze 10 minutes later). My other ogre was trying to grab a horse to eat, but it turned out to be a centaur. The entire town guard slaughtered him (but not before he took 32 with him, thank you very much). My pseudo-dragon took 2 criticals in a row for 140 damage, and exploded into red mist. My scout was killed when 4 displacer beasts rolled 3 nat 20's in a row to sneak up on him, then 3 more 20's in a row to crit him.

Needless to say, I have some baaaaaad luck. So I need a character that cannot die. A legit character, of course. First party sources only please. The system is 3.5. Ecl 9, 28000 gp for magic items and gear.

[CharonsHelper]

Needless to say, I have some baaaaaad luck.

One second...


My other character is about to attack 46 ogres, so he will almost certainly die.

Maybe it's not just your luck... :elan:

[Stryyke]

That wasn't my decision. I was over-ruled.

[Inevitability]

That wasn't my decision. I was over-ruled.

Wait, what? Did the DM just tell you 'you attack 46 ogres' or something? I feel like some context here is needed.

[Crake]

Do other players at your table experience a similar occurance? After all, the entire party died to an ooze, so I can't help but feel your table is simply very high lethality. I mean, going up against 46 ogres, even at level 9... Well, why isn't there an option to just not do that?

Sounds like some of your circumstances could have simply been avoided by just playing a bit smarter, i mean, how do you mistake a centaur for a horse, and why were there guards around? Were you in the middle of a town? If you were, why didn't you just buy some food? Were you intending to steal the horse for food? If it was a misunderstanding, why wasn't there an option to explain?

As for the bad luck, well, sometimes **** happens and there's not much you can really do about it.

Edit:

That wasn't my decision. I was over-ruled.

You know you don't have to follow the group's decision. You can simply let them go die alone, and do something else.


Wait, what? Did the DM just tell you 'you attack 46 ogres' or something? I feel like some context here is needed.

I'm guessing it was the party's decision and he feels compelled to follow along.

[Psyren]

What's your optimization level? Your examples consist of classes (rogue, monk) that need a lot of system mastery to be viable unless the GM is pulling his punches, and based on "46 ogres" it doesn't sound like they are. It also doesn't sound like your party is all that strong either since they all died to a single ooze.

[Venger]

Wait, what? Did the DM just tell you 'you attack 46 ogres' or something? I feel like some context here is needed.


That wasn't my decision. I was over-ruled.

It sounds like the rest of his party said "let's attack 46 ogres," he said no, and the gm went with majority


Do other players at your table experience a similar occurance? After all, the entire party died to an ooze, so I can't help but feel your table is simply very high lethality. I mean, going up against 46 ogres, even at level 9... Well, why isn't there an option to just not do that?

Sounds like some of your circumstances could have simply been avoided by just playing a bit smarter, i mean, how do you mistake a centaur for a horse, and why were there guards around? Were you in the middle of a town? If you were, why didn't you just buy some food? Were you intending to steal the horse for food? If it was a misunderstanding, why wasn't there an option to explain?

As for the bad luck, well, sometimes **** happens and there's not much you can really do about it.

Your gm either doesn't know about appropriate challenge levels or is just trying to tpk you all the time. If it's the former, show him the relevant sections in the book. If it's the latter, finding a new gm is probably advisable.

[AnimeTheCat]

Play a druid or Wild Shape Ranger and go into master of many forms and Warshaper. You'll have the durability to survive combat and the versatility to avoid it when you can't beat it. Wild Shape is super good and getting +1 use per level of Master of Many Forms (+1 hour per level) means you'll start with 2 uses of 6 hours 5 Hours each at master of many forms 1. That's a pretty good way to survive most bad things, but as Crake said, you can't do anything about the enemies rolling natural 20s.

Edit:
Crake Corrected this on Page 2.

[Stryyke]

Of course each death has more context, but those stories are for another day. I think "high lethality" would be a good description of the game we are playing. Ironically, the only person who hasn't made at least 4 characters is the barbarian. He is still on his first character!!!

Generally speaking, we play a rather low optimization game. Perhaps greater optimization would help longevity.

"Play a druid or Wild Shape Ranger and go into master of many forms and Warshaper. You'll have the durability to survive combat and the versatility to avoid it when you can't beat it."

My pseudo-dragon was a wild shape ranger.

[ngilop]

uhmm.. sounds more like a 'lets just charge into everything and fight it and do other stupid decisions..like trying to eat a centaur' rather than a 'low optimization'

it does not matter how optimized you become, if you keep doing pretty idiotic things. like attacking 46 ogres for no reason at all when you have no way to actually stand a chance of winning.


OR failing that, You are leaving out very very BIG chunks of information we need to actually help you.

SO far all the information you've given us is 'other guys got lucky with crits' and ' I do really really stupid things that I know are going to get me killed but I do them anyways'

[zlefin]

different groups have wildly different definitions of hwat constitutes "cheese"; which makes it a bit hard to tell where the line is with your group; adn this board tends to be far higher optimization than most groups.
It sounds like a lot of the problem isn't with the chars themselves; but with the party being stupid/reckless (I mean, making sure everyone is ok after a fight should be routine, you don't leave a party member behind cause noone made a "listen" check), and/or with the dm giving you encounters that are far too tough (and the party not running away).

The best way to not die is to not go adventuring :P
barring that, you'll want a lot of ways to escape successfully regardless of what you're faced with. Are you ok with running away a lot of the time? cuz some of these encounters sound like things that shouldn't have been fought.

[Karl Aegis]

Charaters that can't die tend to be cheesy. How did you expect this to turn out? There probably is some spell that makes it so you can't die from hit point damage, so just persist that with vigor, sheltered vitality and death ward and you become somewhat more difficult to kill than an unbuffed cleric.

[Venger]

Charaters that can't die tend to be cheesy. How did you expect this to turn out? There probably is some spell that makes it so you can't die from hit point damage, so just persist that with vigor, sheltered vitality and death ward and you become somewhat more difficult to kill than an unbuffed cleric.

Not really. There are a ton of ways to die besides hp damage, and it's pretty hard to be insulated against all of them by level 9. Since his dm's throwing dozens of monsters at him and having them all just happen to roll 20s, clearly nothing he does will make much of a difference.

There are many. What you're referring to is the old beastland ferocity delay death combination. throw favored of the martyr on the pile for immunity to various statuses. persisting vigor, sheltered vitality, and death ward on top of that is tricky without nightsticks, but if they're on the table, go for it. the problem is that uses pretty much all your slots, so you have little offensive punch.

[Stryyke]

Hmm. We've been playing this game for a few years now, so let's assume that the group won't stop making stupid decisions. The group dynamic is basically: 3 people don't care about non-combat things. 2 of us make all the non-combat decisions. 1 of us is too new to D&D to even know what bab is yet. The new person is the gf of the barb, so votes tend to come down to 4 people vote for fighting, 2 vote for caution. They simply don't care that it's not possible to win against 46 ogres at ecl 9. They just want to fight.

The situation with the horse was just weird. I had paid for a horse to eat in a big city, and I went to get it. DM made a roll, and decided that the horse I grabbed was a centaur. I don't know how that's possible.

The situation with the ooze was such that, the group had just taken down a purple worm. They were way too beat up to engage in another combat right away. The oozes lived in a patch of special flowers that produced a paralyzing pollen. 2 of the players failed their saves against the pollen and were eaten by the ooze. The Barb survived, took their gear and money, and went to drink beer.

The situation with the ogres is that the group knows there are 46 ogres in a compound. They decided they wanted to fight anyway.

[zlefin]

the only way to survive fights you can't win is to run away; are you ok with running away even if it means leaving other party members behind? cuz sometimes that will be the only way to survive.
the ogre situation sounds like the dm just being a jerk.

how large is the party as a whole?
beating 46 ogres (assuming they're all standard ogres and there's noone else to fight) at ECL 9 is definitely possible; thought unlikely given your groups optimization level. Higher op groups could do it.

[AnimeTheCat]

My pseudo-dragon was a wild shape ranger.

Right, the Pseudo-Dragon that died from a 140 damage crit. Not a fault of the build or character or even you, the player.


Hmm. We've been playing this game for a few years now, so let's assume that the group won't stop making stupid decisions. The group dynamic is basically: 3 people don't care about non-combat things. 2 of us make all the non-combat decisions. 1 of us is too new to D&D to even know what bab is yet. The new person is the gf of the barb, so votes tend to come down to 4 people vote for fighting, 2 vote for caution. They simply don't care that it's not possible to win against 46 ogres at ecl 9. They just want to fight.

The situation with the horse was just weird. I had paid for a horse to eat in a big city, and I went to get it. DM made a roll, and decided that the horse I grabbed was a centaur. I don't know how that's possible.

The situation with the ooze was such that, the group had just taken down a purple worm. They were way too beat up to engage in another combat right away. The oozes lived in a patch of special flowers that produced a paralyzing pollen. 2 of the players failed their saves against the pollen and were eaten by the ooze. The Barb survived, took their gear and money, and went to drink beer.

The situation with the ogres is that the group knows there are 46 ogres in a compound. They decided they wanted to fight anyway.

Another option, so long as you don't get critted to death, is an enchanter or a Thrallherd. Surround yourself with thralls that will protect you with their lives. As close to preventing reasonable death as you can get.

[Stryyke]

So, what's a good build that, while not being indestructible, perhaps has enough durability to survive. Isn't there an undead build where the character comes back to life after 10 days after being "killed?" Maybe that would be the way for me to keep one character long enough to become invested in it.

[Sam K]

Crusader? It's very low maintenance, you go up and hit things and get heals. Then as you get higher level you hit harder and heal more, and at high levels you get the ability to cast heal by hitting people, and you become unkillable (with some restrictions obviously).

Doesn't require much optimization either, pure crusader 20 is fine.

[exelsisxax]

Hmm. We've been playing this game for a few years now, so let's assume that the group won't stop making stupid decisions. The group dynamic is basically: 3 people don't care about non-combat things. 2 of us make all the non-combat decisions. 1 of us is too new to D&D to even know what bab is yet. The new person is the gf of the barb, so votes tend to come down to 4 people vote for fighting, 2 vote for caution. They simply don't care that it's not possible to win against 46 ogres at ecl 9. They just want to fight.

The situation with the horse was just weird. I had paid for a horse to eat in a big city, and I went to get it. DM made a roll, and decided that the horse I grabbed was a centaur. I don't know how that's possible.

The situation with the ooze was such that, the group had just taken down a purple worm. They were way too beat up to engage in another combat right away. The oozes lived in a patch of special flowers that produced a paralyzing pollen. 2 of the players failed their saves against the pollen and were eaten by the ooze. The Barb survived, took their gear and money, and went to drink beer.

The situation with the ogres is that the group knows there are 46 ogres in a compound. They decided they wanted to fight anyway.

Get used to dying, because you'll be doing it next session. Can't help when your DM and fellow players are directly contributing to your deaths.

[Stryyke]

Crusader? It's very low maintenance, you go up and hit things and get heals. Then as you get higher level you hit harder and heal more, and at high levels you get the ability to cast heal by hitting people, and you become unkillable (with some restrictions obviously).

Doesn't require much optimization either, pure crusader 20 is fine.

This is a mostly evil campaign, can crusaders be NE?



Another option, so long as you don't get critted to death, is an enchanter or a Thrallherd. Surround yourself with thralls that will protect you with their lives. As close to preventing reasonable death as you can get.

I'm not familiar with Thrallherd. What is that?

[Gnaeus]

the only non cheesy way to survive fights you can't win is to run away.

Corrected that for you. You could be abusing clone or magic jar. You could be astral projecting from another plane. You could be a psionic sandwich. All of those are accessible by 9th level with varying levels of cheese. I'm not sure that's what OP is discussing, but there are multiple ways to be unkillable by ogres that can be accessed by 9 in one form or another.

[Sam K]

Yes, you can be a crusader of any alignment except True Neutral, I believe.

For some extra cheese (low fat cheese, though), go something like draconic water orc for massive str and con.

[Eldariel]

Spellcasters and avoiding the need to roll. On level 9 you begin to really come onto your own. The best choice when you're about to die? Get the **** out. A level 9 Wizard can cast Teleport for instance. You're still 2 levels away from Contingencies, but you can layer some pretty decent defenses already, particularly if you have good sources (e.g. Abrupt Jaunt from Player's Handbook II). I don't think it's reasonable to make a character that's actually immortal for this party. Thus you'll have to settle for the next best thing: put other things in harm's way and keep yourself (and any willing party members) safe. Minionmancy is the answer to all problems. In Wizard's case on this level it means Animate Dead, Lesser Planar Binding and Summons. You could certainly go summoner; keeps you out of harm's way, is quite efficient and bestows you with the class best able to book it and disengage should things go pearshaped while positioning defensively.

To this end, I could recommend:
Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 2/Malconvoker 4 with the intention of finishing Malconvoker and then perhaps Master Specialist (or switching back to Master Specialist after Malconvoker 5 as the latter abilities are mostly about Planar Binding, not Summoning - either way, keep to these two PRCs as they do more than enough)

Take the Rapid Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#rapidSummoning) and consider the Enhanced Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#enhanceSummoning) if you aren't interested in scribing that many scrolls. Admittedly losing a caster level to Malconvoker blows but next level you get huge payoffs in the Fiendish Legion class feature, giving you lots of things you're summoning. You could instead just go straight Master Specialist getting level 5 spells now, which would put you at a huge survivability advantage on this level.

Mastering Malconvoker (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2791.0) goes in more depth about the different summons you can use; just bring monster sheets for the most common ones and you won't need to keep looking stuff up. Also keep a list of all the SLAs you have access to through your summons. Summoner's Desk Reference (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5) is also a great resource. You could go further into Focused Specialist [Complete Mage] perhaps banning Evocation, Enchantment and Necromancy to keep enough daily slots to last all day casting your Summons. Then prepare stuff like Greater Mirror Image, Lesser Celerity, etc. as your defensive options and round it out with battlefield control like Grease, Web, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles and company. You'll probably still want to pick Obtain Familiar as a feat, share your defensive spells with it, eventually have it carry a second Contingency for you and in general, have it be useful. You could pick Improved Familiar for an Imp or something; would be thematic, powerful and could Commune for you and perhaps UMD Wands or such.

[ShurikVch]

This is a mostly evil campaignIn which case - how about...
Ghost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm). Rejuvenation will bring you back, and Malevolence will allow to possess those Ogres one after one, so, in the end there should be only one, which should be easily beatable. (Ghost Savage Progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) - just in case)

Variant of previous idea: pick for race some ECL 1 Outsider (such as Glimmerfolk or Neraph); multiclass to get your Will to +5 at 3rd level, and make sure your Hide and Knowledge (arcana) are both 6 ranks; hire an evil spellcaster (or just buy scroll) to cast Demonic Blood Infusion on you; enter the Fiend of Possession PrC; take all 6 levels; go ahead with exterminating those Ogres

[AnimeTheCat]

I'm not familiar with Thrallherd. What is that?

Thrallherd is a psionic prestige class that focuses on the use of your thrallherd (basically Leadership, the class ability) and Psionic Charm/Psionic Dominate, A single power that can be adjusted to affect any creature (that can be affected by mind-effecting affects). It's a very easy class to play evil.

Edit:
Here's a link to the class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/thrallherd.htm) as well as a link to Psionics (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicRacesClassesSkillsSpells.htm)in general.

[Stryyke]

Thrallherd is a psionic prestige class that focuses on the use of your thrallherd (basically Leadership, the class ability) and Psionic Charm/Psionic Dominate, A single power that can be adjusted to affect any creature (that can be affected by mind-effecting affects). It's a very easy class to play evil.

Dang. Sorry I didn't mention it, but the DM has strictly forbidden any psionics.

[SirNibbles]

This is a mostly evil campaign, can crusaders be NE?



I'm not familiar with Thrallherd. What is that?

Crusader (Tome of Battle, page 8) can be of any alignment (except TN).

__

Basic tactics:
-avoid fights you can't win
-hit hard and fast
-use area control/positioning to neutralise as many enemies as possible
-have versatile ways to deal damage or control the map

If you're about to fight 46 ogres in the open, you'll probably get wrecked. Find a choke point so you can force 1-3 to engage you at a time. Create artificial lines of defense with Sculpt Spell (Complete Arcane, page 83).

What are the current classes of your party?

[Gnaeus]

Spellcasters and avoiding the need to roll. On level 9 you begin to really come onto your own. The best choice when you're about to die? Get the **** out. A level 9 Wizard can cast Teleport for instance. You're still 2 levels away from Contingencies, but you can layer some pretty decent defenses already, particularly if you have good sources (e.g. Abrupt Jaunt from Player's Handbook II). I don't think it's reasonable to make a character that's actually immortal for this party. Thus you'll have to settle for the next best thing: put other things in harm's way and keep yourself (and any willing party members) safe. Minionmancy is the answer to all problems. In Wizard's case on this level it means Animate Dead, Lesser Planar Binding and Summons.

A scroll of contingency should be well inside WBL. Magic jar should already be available.

[Nifft]

What are the current classes of your party?

Also their levels?

(If you're below the average level, that could explain some of the disproportionate lethality.)

[Stryyke]

Crusader (Tome of Battle, page 8) can be of any alignment (except TN).

__

Basic tactics:
-avoid fights you can't win
-hit hard and fast
-use area control/positioning to neutralise as many enemies as possible
-have versatile ways to deal damage or control the map

If you're about to fight 46 ogres in the open, you'll probably get wrecked. Find a choke point so you can force 1-3 to engage you at a time. Create artificial lines of defense with Sculpt Spell (Complete Arcane, page 83).

What are the current classes of your party?

The situation is that there are 4 ogres guarding the entrance to the compound, 2 (that we know of) in the compound walking around, and 40 (that we know of) in the bar. As an ogre myself, I managed to just walk in and buy a beer. My plan is to engage while in the doorway with a grapple. My hope is that the ogres inside won't realize what's going on outside, thinking I'm just in a bar fight in the doorway. But even if they do, the ongoing grapple in the doorway should prevent them from getting out of the building. My comrades can address the 6 that are outside the bar while I block the other 40 from getting to them. And the grapple will provide protection, as long as I can maintain control of the grapple, from those trying to attack me. After a few rounds, there should be 39 left. The group can surround the door, and will deal with the emerging ogres 1 or two at a time as they emerge.

The biggest question mark is how many other ogres are in the compound, but not in the bar.

[Crake]

Play a druid or Wild Shape Ranger and go into master of many forms and Warshaper. You'll have the durability to survive combat and the versatility to avoid it when you can't beat it. Wild Shape is super good and getting +1 use per level of Master of Many Forms (+1 hour per level) means you'll start with 2 uses of 6 hours each at master of many forms 1. That's a pretty good way to survive most bad things, but as Crake said, you can't do anything about the enemies rolling natural 20s.

I feel like I ought to mention that master of many forms does not increase the duration. A druid 5/master of many forms 1 would have 2 uses of 5 hours each, while a druid 5/master of many forms 10 would have 11 uses also of 5 hours each.


The situation with the horse was just weird. I had paid for a horse to eat in a big city, and I went to get it. DM made a roll, and decided that the horse I grabbed was a centaur. I don't know how that's possible.

That does indeed not make any sense. Should ask your DM how that was at all possible, and ask him why putting the centaur down and saying sorry was apparently not an option.

[Venger]

So, what's a good build that, while not being indestructible, perhaps has enough durability to survive. Isn't there an undead build where the character comes back to life after 10 days after being "killed?" Maybe that would be the way for me to keep one character long enough to become invested in it.

this is a power of liches, which you can't be in your current level. even once it's on the table, it's really not worth the ecl.


Yes, you can be a crusader of any alignment except True Neutral, I believe.

For some extra cheese (low fat cheese, though), go something like draconic water orc for massive str and con.

dragonborn, not draconic. hurl lolth-touched and mineral warrior on there too since the party is comfortable with la, rhd, and low op templates

[Stryyke]

this is a power of liches, which you can't be in your current level. even once it's on the table, it's really not worth the ecl.

But if I become a wizard now, and create my phylactery, I wouldn't have any la penalty when I reach level 11, right? So all I have to do is become a wizard, hide behind the party until lvl 11, create the phylactery, and I should be good?



dragonborn, not draconic. hurl lolth-touched and mineral warrior on there too since the party is comfortable with la, rhd, and low op templates


Dragonborn, or any other dragon lineage base, is out the window for campaign reasons.

[ngilop]

the only way to survive fights you can't win is to run away; are you ok with running away even if it means leaving other party members behind? cuz sometimes that will be the only way to survive.
the ogre situation sounds like the dm just being a jerk.

how large is the party as a whole?
beating 46 ogres (assuming they're all standard ogres and there's noone else to fight) at ECL 9 is definitely possible; thought unlikely given your groups optimization level. Higher op groups could do it.


correction: defeating all 46 ogres at once is definitely possible.

going through a compound and fighting them in groups SHOULD be completely a non-issue for a ECL 9 party.

Doing the same thing(well we had an ogre fortress with about 60 ogres plus another 20 or so other things) at ECL 7 was beyond easy for my own group of 4, and our optimization level.. The sorcerer took toughness twice and his spell selection consisted of unseen servant, levitate, nondetection, and shatter.


I still feel that trying to not do idiotic actions for your characters is a better way to survive that being 1005 suicidal.

[Menzath]

I agree with the minions-mancy.

Barring that would be an actual un-killable build(or close enough), something like a human half golem while being a symbiote(Savage species template) with that stupid plant that gives you regeneration(was it the dread blossom swarm from mm3?) So you would still take normal fire and cold damage, but immune to all other damage.
Now that gives you like 8 racial/monstrous HD, so being a caster you would be behind that game a bit, but a ToB crusader or warblade should do just fine.

[Eldariel]

But if I become a wizard now, and create my phylactery, I wouldn't have any la penalty when I reach level 11, right? So all I have to do is become a wizard, hide behind the party until lvl 11, create the phylactery, and I should be good?

You'd be ECL15 after the Lich transformation, slowing your leveling down to a crawl (though killing you would be very hard indeed). That said, Wizard 9 can Lesser Planar Binding a Nightmare and use its Astral Projection to adventure safely while laying inside Extended Rope Trick (though Lesser Planar Binding is one of the more broken spells). Or go into Magic Jar and keep stealing bodies. Magic can keep you quite safe even without Lich transformation. And you get Contingency on level 11 if you go e.g. Elf Generalist + Domain Wizard.

Or just keep a horde of undead between you and everyone else; between Command Undead and Animate Dead (command undead you create, create more releasing them from your Animate pool) you can keep a rather formidable force, particularly if you pick up Desecrate through Arcane Disciple [Complete Divine] (Evil and Undeath domains both have the spell). The usual suspects like Hydras and Dragons (Draconomicon has a special template for them that has no HD limit and allows them to keep their breath weapon) make for great zombies for instance.

You could even go Necropolitan yourself and heal the whole team with negative energy and get extra HP from Desecrate-created body. Potentially even with Corpsecrafter [Libris Mortis] for extra HP. But again, avoid the need to roll - make expendable bodies and minions take the hits for you. You could even Spellstitch [Complete Arcane] an undead of yours, or yourself, to get SLA Animate Dead/Animate Dread Warrior [Unapproachable East] to get these spells free of gold cost.

Many options await you in the beautiful world of magic. Just let others die for you.

[Stryyke]

You'd be ECL15 after the Lich transformation, slowing your leveling down to a crawl (though killing you would be very hard indeed). That said, Wizard 9 can Lesser Planar Binding a Nightmare and use its Astral Projection to adventure safely while laying inside Extended Rope Trick (though Lesser Planar Binding is one of the more broken spells). Or go into Magic Jar and keep stealing bodies. Magic can keep you quite safe even without Lich transformation. And you get Contingency on level 11 if you go e.g. Elf Generalist + Domain Wizard.

Or just keep a horde of undead between you and everyone else; between Command Undead and Animate Dead (command undead you create, create more releasing them from your Animate pool) you can keep a rather formidable force, particularly if you pick up Desecrate through Arcane Disciple [Complete Divine] (Evil and Undeath domains both have the spell). The usual suspects like Hydras and Dragons (Draconomicon has a special template for them that has no HD limit and allows them to keep their breath weapon) make for great zombies for instance.

You could even go Necropolitan yourself and heal the whole team with negative energy and get extra HP from Desecrate-created body. Potentially even with Corpsecrafter [Libris Mortis] for extra HP. But again, avoid the need to roll - make expendable bodies and minions take the hits for you. You could even Spellstitch [Complete Arcane] an undead of yours, or yourself, to get SLA Animate Dead/Animate Dread Warrior [Unapproachable East] to get these spells free of gold cost.

Many options await you in the beautiful world of magic. Just let others die for you.

Now that necromancy sounds like music to my ears. Can you help me out with a build? There is one thing kind of rough for all magic using, though. We lose 4 la whether we use it or not. So at ECL 9, we are, at best, class level 5. We basically use that 4 la for monsters. Perhaps a half-fiend human would make for a good necromancer. Knowing that the beauty you described is a bit away, can you help me create a good build? Dragons (and all dragon bloodlines), psionics, and pixies are all strict "no" for campaign reasons.

[Amphetryon]

Now that necromancy sounds like music to my ears. Can you help me out with a build? There is one thing kind of rough for all magic using, though. We lose 4 la whether we use it or not. So at ECL 9, we are, at best, class level 5. We basically use that 4 la for monsters. Perhaps a half-fiend human would make for a good necromancer. Knowing that the beauty you described is a bit away, can you help me create a good build? Dragons (and all dragon bloodlines), psionics, and pixies are all strict "no" for campaign reasons.
My emphasis, in which we gain insight into why the campaign has a high lethality rate.

Prior to this clarification, I was going to suggest:

Necropolitan Lesser Aasimar Favored Soul (Deity's Favor ACF) 5/ Death Delver 2/Divine Oracle 2.

[Deadline]

But if I become a wizard now, and create my phylactery, I wouldn't have any la penalty when I reach level 11, right? So all I have to do is become a wizard, hide behind the party until lvl 11, create the phylactery, and I should be good?

You have to have to be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11 in order to create a Phylactery. It also costs 120,000gp and 4,800xp to create (and you need the Craft Wondrous Item feat).

[Venger]

We lose 4 la whether we use it or not. So at ECL 9, we are, at best, class level 5. We basically use that 4 la for monsters.

That explains why you guys were all playing as these weird monsters.

That'll explain why you guys are all dying, assuming no malfeasance from your gm. is there any particular reason for this rule?

[ShurikVch]

Please, excuse me for self-bumping, but neither OP, nor anybody else commented on my previous post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22380104&postcount=24)
If it's just doesn't fit - OK. But for now, it looks like collective nat. 1 on Spot and failed the check

[zlefin]

Now that necromancy sounds like music to my ears. Can you help me out with a build? There is one thing kind of rough for all magic using, though. We lose 4 la whether we use it or not. So at ECL 9, we are, at best, class level 5. We basically use that 4 la for monsters. Perhaps a half-fiend human would make for a good necromancer. Knowing that the beauty you described is a bit away, can you help me create a good build? Dragons (and all dragon bloodlines), psionics, and pixies are all strict "no" for campaign reasons.


ah, 4 la for monsters does change things quite a lot; given how overpriced most la's are.

are you also having to pay full price for the racial hit dice many monsters have? (i.e. each racial hit die counts equal to 1 level, plus you have to pay the level adjustment value on top of that) if you're not sure; just list some of your chars, and what they had for ECL, racial hit dice, and class levels.
racial hit dice + over priced level adjustments can make chars awfully weak very quickly. There's some guides around about how balanced various things are for their LA; using those to pick stronger chassis and sticking to the small list of things that are actually decent for their LA might help a lot.

[Nifft]

If you get LA +4 for free, then some neat options open up, which may improve survivability.

For example: The Unbodied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm). It's got 4 HD and LA +4, but the cool part is that the 4 HD each count as Psion levels, so you're not behind as a caster. Stack on 5 more Psion levels and take Vow of Poverty (since you're incorporeal and can't use equipment). Very survivable.

Another example: The Pixie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie). One RHD (which ought to vanish when you take a class level or nine), permanent Greater Invisibility, good flight speed, DR 10/cold iron, good SR, and great stat boosts for any type of caster.

Those may be the best in the SRD at ECL 9.

[SirNibbles]

Now that necromancy sounds like music to my ears. Can you help me out with a build? There is one thing kind of rough for all magic using, though. We lose 4 la whether we use it or not. So at ECL 9, we are, at best, class level 5. We basically use that 4 la for monsters. Perhaps a half-fiend human would make for a good necromancer. Knowing that the beauty you described is a bit away, can you help me create a good build? Dragons (and all dragon bloodlines), psionics, and pixies are all strict "no" for campaign reasons.


If you get LA +4 for free, then some neat options open up, which may improve survivability.

For example: The Unbodied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm). It's got 4 HD and LA +4, but the cool part is that the 4 HD each count as Psion levels, so you're not behind as a caster. Stack on 5 more Psion levels and take Vow of Poverty (since you're incorporeal and can't use equipment). Very survivable.

Another example: The Pixie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie). One RHD (which ought to vanish when you take a class level or nine), permanent Greater Invisibility, good flight speed, DR 10/cold iron, good SR, and great stat boosts for any type of caster.

Those may be the best in the SRD at ECL 9.

Pixie would work wonders with those rules, but it's banned. My first thought was a Pixie Sorcerer.

[Nifft]

Pixie would work wonders with those rules, but it's banned. My first thought was a Pixie Sorcerer.

Uh... okay.

Sylph, from MM2 (plus the update booklet).

3 RHD, and LA +5, but you cast as a Sorcerer of your HD +4.

So by the most conservative interpretation -- "RHD +4" not "RHD + class HD + 4" -- you get to be a Sorcerer 12 at ECL 9 with a build like...

Sylph 3 / Sorcerer 5 / LA +1

[Stryyke]

ah, 4 la for monsters does change things quite a lot; given how overpriced most la's are.

are you also having to pay full price for the racial hit dice many monsters have? (i.e. each racial hit die counts equal to 1 level, plus you have to pay the level adjustment value on top of that) if you're not sure; just list some of your chars, and what they had for ECL, racial hit dice, and class levels.
racial hit dice + over priced level adjustments can make chars awfully weak very quickly. There's some guides around about how balanced various things are for their LA; using those to pick stronger chassis and sticking to the small list of things that are actually decent for their LA might help a lot.

Sadly yes. For example, my ogre cleric at ecl 9 is cleric lvl 3 (la 2, MHD +4). It's made thing extremely difficult thusfar. I'm not sure if he has any reason for the rule or not. I never really asked him. I just figured it's how he wants things, so it's up to us to figure out how to make it work.
I think it may be part of why I die so often, but none of the deaths really revolved around being underpowered.

I was thinking of doing a human half-fiend. That should use the la as effectively as I can, I think.


ShurikVch
Please, excuse me for self-bumping, but neither OP, nor anybody else commented on my previous post
If it's just doesn't fit - OK. But for now, it looks like collective nat. 1 on Spot and failed the check

I'm a bit iffy on ghost simply because interaction with the group would be very difficult. It would also make most loot unusable. Unless I'm wrong. Feel free to correct me if my preconceived notions are incorrect.

[zlefin]

I'd make sure to specifically ask your dm if he's aware that the listed LAs in the book are in general terrible and badly overpriced. Some dms simply aren't aware of it and haven't thought about it much. The power difference might not be very apparent to you, but it's most certainly there and making a big difference. In many cases it'd effectively be putting much of your party 2-3 levels weaker than they should be; and if the entire party is 2-3 level below what it's supposed to be, that's gonna completely throw off the CR of encounters (assuming your dm uses CR as an encounter guideline)

[Stryyke]

Uh... okay.

Sylph, from MM2 (plus the update booklet).

3 RHD, and LA +5, but you cast as a Sorcerer of your HD +4.

So by the most conservative interpretation -- "RHD +4" not "RHD + class HD + 4" -- you get to be a Sorcerer 12 at ECL 9 with a build like...

Sylph 3 / Sorcerer 5 / LA +1

Interesting. Do they have an alignment restriction?

[Malroth]

A Spellhording Loredrake Steel Wyrmling/wizard3 should be a functional 7th lv caster

[Telok]

Curst

It's a Faerun undead with a +3 LA. Immune to turn/rebuke, fast healing, and cannot be destroyed by hit point damage. It's killed by Remove Curse, Disintegrate, being dissolved by acid, or other forms of complete material destruction. Explicitly able to recover from being torn into little bits. Comes with the usual undead immunities.

[Sam K]

dragonborn, not draconic. hurl lolth-touched and mineral warrior on there too since the party is comfortable with la, rhd, and low op templates

No, draconic (from races of the dragon, I believe). +1 LA, +2 str con and cha, natural armour and claws. Dragonborn requires you to be LG and worship the wussdragon (which wouldn't work for this campaign, according to the OP). But dragon-related stuff is off the table, it seems.

For everyone suggesting complicated stuff involving planar binding and scrolls and possession: keep in mind that this seems to be a campaign where the following rules are in effect:

1. The party will attack the darkness. Anything that requires more than one rounds prep will likely be interrupted by murderhoboing (not a huge problem, but worth keeping in mind - don't try to planar bind anything around the rest of the party, don't let them into your rope-trick space).
2. The DM apparently runs a world where "I buy some food and eat it" randomly turns into "You attempt to commit murder cause why-the-hell-not, and the city guard zerg attacks you". Don't assume anything as complicated as possession or buying a scroll will go off without a major incident.

OP, just out of curiosity, is the DM a jerk, or did he just realise that the majority of the party just wants whacky combat hijinks and tailor the campaign to that?

[Nifft]

A Spellhording Loredrake Steel Wyrmling/wizard3 should be a functional 7th lv caster

The web article on Steel Dragons doesn't list an LA.

Did you find the LA listed elsewhere?

[JyP]

So, what's a good build that, while not being indestructible, perhaps has enough durability to survive. Isn't there an undead build where the character comes back to life after 10 days after being "killed?" Maybe that would be the way for me to keep one character long enough to become invested in it.
Vampire template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm), LA+8 has this :

Fast Healing (Ex)
A vampire heals 5 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Any additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in its coffin, a vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round.

[Nifft]

Interesting. Do they have an alignment restriction?

Nothing in the update booklet about that.

What does the MM2 entry say?

[Eldariel]

Now that necromancy sounds like music to my ears. Can you help me out with a build? There is one thing kind of rough for all magic using, though. We lose 4 la whether we use it or not. So at ECL 9, we are, at best, class level 5. We basically use that 4 la for monsters. Perhaps a half-fiend human would make for a good necromancer. Knowing that the beauty you described is a bit away, can you help me create a good build? Dragons (and all dragon bloodlines), psionics, and pixies are all strict "no" for campaign reasons.

Half-fiend would grant you Desecrate SLA which can be nice. Though losing levels really stings. It's tough to get your thing going so late.

Far as getting casting ASAP, Sylph [Monster Manual II] has +5 LA and 3 HD getting racial casting of level 7 Sorcerer. Red Ethergaunt [Fiend Folio] would have Wizard 9 casting but it's ECL 12 so sadly you don't have access to it yet. Sylph would put you at Sorcerer 8 with 1 level in the class giving you 4th level spells including Animate Dead.

Sadly it's Sorcerer casting, not Wizard, so you have very limited spells known and need teo more levels for level 5 spells but given the extra levels of casting (ECL 9 Sylph has 8 levels of Sorcerer casting) it's easily worth it. There are items a Sorcerer can use to gain more spells known and later on you can learn Limited Wish to change your spells around on the fly but for now, focus on staying alive.

4HD creature in an ECL9 game is quite dangerous. You can use False Life for some extra HP and Wings of Cover [Races of the Dragon] to "Nope!" some dangerous attacks though, and you have access to Animate Dead (and Command Undead) already so there are tools for producing expendable underlings at your disposal.

Again, Arcane Disciple: Undeath or Evil for Desecrate is a good plan with the added benefit of getting a bunch of free spells known as a Sorc. Of those, Undeath grants you Animate Dead as a 3rd level spell and Death Ward as a 4th so that's nice too. Evil has nothing of note (Blasphemy isn't amazing in an evil campaign) so I recommend Undeath.

This leaves you as LA +5/Sylph 3/Sorcerer 1. Spell selection is naturally key to your survivability. You should know the general utility like Grease, Mage Armor, Nerveskitter [Spell Compendium], Glitterdust, Web, Stinking Cloud, Haste. Charm Monster would also probably be tremendously useful and Confusion would absolutely house situations where you fight 46 Ogres. Some form of Invisibility is definitely warranted - luckily you have Greater Invisibility at will for yourself!

You fly naturally so that's taken care of though Phantom Steed may still be of use to you due to its immense speed. You can use your 4th level spelm known for Black Tentacles, Ruin Delver's Fortune or Greater Mirror Image thanks to knowing Animate Dead from Undeath domain.


EDIT: Noticed the question. Sylphs have no alignment restrictions and they're completely awesome (Small Outsider; low on HD but Outsider-type makes Alter Self and Polymorph interesting too). They also have the Summon Elemental power, which is quite strong for a while. I guess you could argue that a Sylph 3/Sorcerer 1 would be level 9 casting but I generally rule the Sorc-casting for racial HD only, which still makes it rather strong.

[Crake]

The web article on Steel Dragons doesn't list an LA.

Did you find the LA listed elsewhere?

Steel dragons are listed in dragons of faerun, wyrmling is listed as +2, very young +3 and young/juvenile +4.


A Spellhording Loredrake Steel Wyrmling/wizard3 should be a functional 7th lv caster

That would only come out to 6th level casting. Wyrming is 1, loredrake is +2, and wizard3 is +3, adds up to 6. Spellhoarding doesn't add any spellcasting levels, it just changes them to wizard.

[Nifft]

Steel dragons are listed in dragons of faerun, wyrmling is listed as +2, very young +3 and young/juvenile +4.

Thanks.

Looks like the HD and features for Steel Dragons are fairly different between the web article and the Faerun book.

The web article's Steel Dragon wyrmling has 4 HD, for example, while the Faerun book gives its wyrmling 6 HD.

[Crake]

Thanks.

Looks like the HD and features for Steel Dragons are fairly different between the web article and the Faerun book.

The web article's Steel Dragon wyrmling has 4 HD, for example, while the Faerun book gives its wyrmling 6 HD.

No it doesn't? Are you looking at a pdf? Because there's a dodgy, fake pdf that's made the rounds that isn't legit at all. My physical book and the pdf I have both say 4HD. The only difference I see is that they traded out polymorph for alternate form, which was done as part of the big polymorph change early in 3.5's development cycle.

[Pugwampy]

Tell the DM you are not dumb enough to fight 46 ogres. There is your life insurence.

Most DM are vet players , they will know all the tricks to kill you regardless of your cheese or levels. There is no sure answer for you. DM holds all power and if he wants to kill you he will but you can choose to play with him or not , that's your power.

[thethird]

So, what's a good build that, while not being indestructible, perhaps has enough durability to survive. Isn't there an undead build where the character comes back to life after 10 days after being "killed?" Maybe that would be the way for me to keep one character long enough to become invested in it.

Yeah we can do that.

You need 3 levels of ghost: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a

Take only a level of ghost and then take 5 levels of something and 3 levels of uncanny trickster (from complete scoundrel) progressing ghost 2 more levels.
Take surge of malevolence from heroes of horror (freely due to taint) and you will have a +6 to the level check required to rejuvenate.

You then have a DC 16 check with a +14 to resucitate. I.e. don't roll a 1 (survive a level and you will be able to roll a 1 on this).

You might want to have human as a base and take human heritage (races of destiny) so your type counts to humanoid and you loose most of the vulnerabilities of an undead.

For the 5 levels I would recommend something that works well with ghost. Something sneaky/scouty.

[Elkad]

ECL9 but only CL5 is plenty to have flight and a fireball wand. Lure them into the open and drop fireballs from 600' in the air. Or just regular arrows.
Or collapse the building on their heads.
Or (as mentioned by others) find/make a chokepoint and kill them 1-2 at a time.
Or run away.
Or join the ogres in killing the "invaders", you already pulled off the bluff to get in with them. Sneak off afterwards (or yell "there's one over there!" take off "after it" and just keep going).

Some of the other stuff is silly (and I think the centaur thing is hilarious, assuming your mental stats are low enough to make it sorta-reasonable).


But, barring lucky crits, I see a core here. It's possible the DM is a sadist who just likes killing you all in funny ways. But maybe you just need to run more often, or at least think more often. Stop with the standup fights.

Its ogres. Kill a few and then run away. Use sniper tactics. Burn their village (and shoot any who try to escape the flames). Stealth around and assassinate them. Use mind-control effects to make them kill one another. Etc.

[Stryyke]

Hmmm I'll take a look at Sylph, as that seems to solve some problems. I'm a bit leery, not because of the race itself, but because it sounds like it's pretty close to pixie. And pixie's are banned. Will my DM see a difference? I guess there's only one way to find out!

[ShurikVch]

I'm a bit iffy on ghost simply because interaction with the group would be very difficult. It would also make most loot unusable.What's you mean by "interaction with the group"?
Wouldn't Manifestation be enough for it?
Are they afraid of ghosts?

About the "loot problem": Ghostly Grasp feat will allow you to use corporeal items outside the Ethereal Plane

Also, what's about the Fiend of Possession?
Even if you will take just 5 levels of it, you still be able to possess nearby pile of dirt(/piece of wall/puddle of water/...) and start massacring those Ogres; when they would destroy your vessel, you will just possess some other piece of environment

[Stryyke]

What's you mean by "interaction with the group"?
Wouldn't Manifestation be enough for it?
Are they afraid of ghosts?

About the "loot problem": Ghostly Grasp feat will allow you to use corporeal items outside the Ethereal Plane

Also, what's about the Fiend of Possession?
Even if you will take just 5 levels of it, you still be able to possess nearby pile of dirt(/piece of wall/puddle of water/...) and start massacring those Ogres; when they would destroy your vessel, you will just possess some other piece of environment

This specifically:

"Horrific Appearance (Su)
Any living creature within 60 feet that views a ghost must succeed on a Fortitude save or immediately take 1d4 points of Strength damage, 1d4 points of Dexterity damage, and 1d4 points of Constitution damage. A creature that successfully saves against this effect cannot be affected by the same ghost’s horrific appearance for 24 hours."

Unless my DM rules that it can be suppressed, I would be a perpetual thorn in my comrade's side. And the way it's worded, I think my DM would say that it cannot be suppressed, since it is about the visage.

[Crake]

This specifically:

"Horrific Appearance (Su)
Any living creature within 60 feet that views a ghost must succeed on a Fortitude save or immediately take 1d4 points of Strength damage, 1d4 points of Dexterity damage, and 1d4 points of Constitution damage. A creature that successfully saves against this effect cannot be affected by the same ghost’s horrific appearance for 24 hours."

Unless my DM rules that it can be suppressed, I would be a perpetual thorn in my comrade's side. And the way it's worded, I think my DM would say that it cannot be suppressed, since it is about the visage.

You don't get all of the ghost special abilities, you choose one to three of them. You can simply not choose horrific appearance.

[Stryyke]

You don't get all of the ghost special abilities, you choose one to three of them. You can simply not choose horrific appearance.

Aaaahhh. That does change things. Hmmmm. A ghostly necromancer, perhaps? Would their summons appear on the material plane, or the ethereal plane?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

My advice would be to invest heavily in backup plans, assuming the lethality isn't on all the time so you get some time to recharge. Run out of spells? Wands, potions, staffs. Run out of HP? More wand, potions, staffs. Break a weapon? Backup weapons. Break your armor? Wear it in layers. Find a way to raise your movement speed enough to run away from most things, maybe get a flight or burrow speed. Disengaging after killing half of the enemy forces can bring you victory on day two. Finally, build a relationship with as many powerful NPCs as you can. Give them a reason to not want you dead.

[Stryyke]

My advice would be to invest heavily in backup plans, assuming the lethality isn't on all the time so you get some time to recharge. Run out of spells? Wands, potions, staffs. Run out of HP? More wand, potions, staffs. Break a weapon? Backup weapons. Break your armor? Wear it in layers. Find a way to raise your movement speed enough to run away from most things, maybe get a flight or burrow speed. Disengaging after killing half of the enemy forces can bring you victory on day two. Finally, build a relationship with as many powerful NPCs as you can. Give them a reason to not want you dead.

All good general advice. Also, not really relevant. I had a character with a base move of 60 and a fly of 120. Didn't help. I had a bard to talk through things. Didn't help. I had a monk with an insane AC without armor. Didn't help. I wouldn't be here asking advice if simply having a fly speed, or a wand would solve the issue.

[CharonsHelper]

All good general advice. Also, not really relevant. I had a character with a base move of 60 and a fly of 120. Didn't help. I had a bard to talk through things. Didn't help. I had a monk with an insane AC without armor. Didn't help. I wouldn't be here asking advice if simply having a fly speed, or a wand would solve the issue.

If your GM wants a high lethality game nothing will prevent it.

[Venger]

All good general advice. Also, not really relevant. I had a character with a base move of 60 and a fly of 120. Didn't help. I had a bard to talk through things. Didn't help. I had a monk with an insane AC without armor. Didn't help. I wouldn't be here asking advice if simply having a fly speed, or a wand would solve the issue.

is there a reason you want to keep playing with this guy?

[Stryyke]

is there a reason you want to keep playing with this guy?

It's the only game available. I am homebound, so I can't go to most of the local games. This is the only group willing to come to my place to play.

[Eldariel]

All good general advice. Also, not really relevant. I had a character with a base move of 60 and a fly of 120. Didn't help. I had a bard to talk through things. Didn't help. I had a monk with an insane AC without armor. Didn't help. I wouldn't be here asking advice if simply having a fly speed, or a wand would solve the issue.

Ghost and in general undead are pretty solid options if you can't be Sylph (ask!) The secret to surviving bad luck is avoiding the need to roll. Thus, act at range, act through proxies, have as many immediate/free action ways to get outta the way/avoid attacks as possible. Ghost Necromancer is indeed fine. Other undead races will do in a pinch.

Going Cleric is better than going Wizard in this case since they get Animate Dead earlier. You can use Divine Magician [Complete Mage] to add Command Undead and Magic Jar to your spell list. You can also get some domains like Deathbound [Spell Compendium] that enhance the pool you can control. General utility domains like Spell [SC], Trickery, Magic, Travel, Time [SC], Celerity [SC], etc. are great and good options for Spontaneous Domain Casting [PHBII].

Ghost options are also really strong. Possession, telekinesis, etc. at will. Pick well and make sure to use them.

[thethird]

I'm a bit iffy on ghost simply because interaction with the group would be very difficult. It would also make most loot unusable. Unless I'm wrong. Feel free to correct me if my preconceived notions are incorrect.

Ghostly Grasp, libris mortis makes it so you can carry items without need for them to be ghost touch items.

[Stryyke]

One thing I need to know . . . would a ghost summoner summon onto the material or ethereal plane? Also, would he raise undead on the material plane?

[JyP]

You don't get all of the ghost special abilities, you choose one to three of them. You can simply not choose horrific appearance.
There's also a lot more options to play a ghostly character in Ghostwalk, with a lot of additional feats to tailor your ghostly powers (and a +0 template instead of +3, but it needs DM approval).

[thethird]

One thing I need to know . . . would a ghost summoner summon onto the material or ethereal plane? Also, would he raise undead on the material plane?

Material to both. If there is any problem with it manifest.


There's also a lot more options to play a ghostly character in Ghostwalk, with a lot of additional feats to tailor your ghostly powers (and a +0 template instead of +3, but it needs DM approval).

The ghostwalk ghost doesn't have rejuvenation which is the main point of getting ghost. And they have some strong limitations in gaining levels. I wouldn't recommend it.

[Eldariel]

One thing I need to know . . . would a ghost summoner summon onto the material or ethereal plane? Also, would he raise undead on the material plane?

If he raises bodies that exist on the material plane, they wouldn't magically get transported to the Ethereal. While Manifesting, casting on the material is certainly doable. While not Manifesting you'd only be able to cast on Ethereal though, and there are few enough options around that. So, manifest!

Added some stuff about Cleric options above, by the way. They are quite perfect for producing an undead army early on.

EDIT: Oh yeah, ghost can't cast Touch spells on the material plane even while Manifesting. To this end, I recommend acquiring the Spectral Hand spell, e.g. through Spell-domain's Anyspell or through Divine Magician.

[Stryyke]

If he raises bodies that exist on the material plane, they wouldn't magically get transported to the Ethereal. While Manifesting, casting on the material is certainly doable. While not Manifesting you'd only be able to cast on Ethereal though, and there are few enough options around that. So, manifest!

Added some stuff about Cleric options above, by the way. They are quite perfect for producing an undead army early on.

Sounds like a win to me. Now to select a base race for the template to maximize those special abilities

Also, I'm really unfamiliar with the undead raising mechanic. Can you provide a link, and/or a brief summation about how it works?

[Eldariel]

Sounds like a win to me. Now to select a base race for the template to maximize those special abilities

Also, I'm really unfamiliar with the undead raising mechanic. Can you provide a link, and/or a brief summation about how it works?

Frankly, Ghost special abilities are quite standalone. Base race could just be Human or something granting bonused to Wis and/or Cha.

There's actually a Ghost Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?446187-The-Ghost-Guide) too.
As for the undead:
Unlimited Bone Works (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=17451.0)
K's Revised Necromancer Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2733.0)

They offer at least a decent collection of information, if the formatting might leave something to be desired. Just reading the related spells and templates would have you covered to a degree too - it's rather simple.

[Mr Adventurer]

This thread gave me the best idea (for a BBEG). Warblade 4/Sorcerer 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1+. Item Familiar: magic sword, stated inheritance condition "whoever defeats me, revoked when I return". Abjurant Champion makes his caster level equal his BAB, so he can make the phylactery. He enchants the sword as the phylactery. Boom, a death knight, you defeat him and take his sword, feel pretty good about yourself until one night a chill surrounds you, your sword stops working properly, and its previous owner comes back to claim it!

[Lvl 2 Expert]

In that case, go full yolo. Take a monstrous PC with a starting ECL of 9, like a gargoyle or something. Or make an NPC class build. If everyone does this, which means you get another 5 new characters over the next 2 sessions, he will have to lower the difficulty a bit, Than switch up and you'll have one session where he's not prepared to kill you for sure. Haha!





Talking to everyone would be better of course, but it generally is.

[ATHATH]

The Curst template seems to be good option for you- pick up a spellblade of Remove Curse, and you should be nigh-unkillable (unless you're disintegrated or dunking in acid or something).

[Stryyke]

The Curst template seems to be good option for you- pick up a spellblade of Remove Curse, and you should be nigh-unkillable (unless you're disintegrated or dunking in acid or something).

LOL. My last character died when I rolled 4 "1's" in a row and fell into a pit of acid.

[ATHATH]

LOL. My last character died when I rolled 4 "1's" in a row and fell into a pit of acid.
Well, I don't know how much better you can do than an LA +3 template that literally gives you the "Unkillable" quality:

"Unkillable (Ex): Only two ways exist to destroy a curst permanently. One is to destroy its body (by total immersion in acid, or a disintegrate or undeath to death spell, for example). The other is to remove the curse that keeps it from dying. The caster of the remove curse spell must succeed on a caster level check (DC 10 + the curst's HD) to successfully remove the curse."

"Fast Healing (Ex): A curst heals 1 point of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 or fewer hit points, it falls to the ground paralyzed, and its fast healing stops. After 1 hour, the curst makes a DC 20 level check. If the check succeeds, the curst regains 1 hit point, its fast healing resumes, and it is no longer paralyzed. If the check fails, the curst must make another check at the same DC 24 hours later, and every 24 hours thereafter until it succeeds and begins to recover hit points again. Thus, even a dismembered curst eventually recovers from its injuries."

I mean, I guess you could be a ghost or a lich or something, or maybe some (tamer) variant of a member of the Emerald Legion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?101587-D-amp-D-3-5-The-Emerald-Legion-Mass-Producing-Ikea-Tarrasques), but you probably aren't going to get something much better and consistent than a curst.

I suppose that you could just pick up the Troll-Blooded feat and fire and acid immunity, but you'd still be vulnerable to the same stuff that can kill cursts, plus any other HP-bypassing "you're dead or incapacitated for the rest of your life now" effects.

[ATHATH]

Ooh, idea here: You make a character with a backstory/power set similar to that of The Nameless One from Planescape: Torment. Whenever you die, just bring in an identical character as your "reincarnation", pick up your old character's loot, and carry on.

[Thunder999]

Be a wizard, reserve a slot solely for teleport, when you think you might die just teleport away.

[Sagetim]

My other character is about to attack 46 ogres, so he will almost certainly die. That would make my 8th character in the last year. They just keep dying to weird circumstances. My rogue, for example, rolled 4 "1's" in a row on a D20 and died of fall damage. My bard was turned to stone fleeing from a cockatrice, after killing 3 of them. My monk died when he failed the second poison save after the group took down a purple worm. The group didn't hear him hit the floor, and left him alone and helpless in the dungeon. (of course they were all killed by an ooze 10 minutes later). My other ogre was trying to grab a horse to eat, but it turned out to be a centaur. The entire town guard slaughtered him (but not before he took 32 with him, thank you very much). My pseudo-dragon took 2 criticals in a row for 140 damage, and exploded into red mist. My scout was killed when 4 displacer beasts rolled 3 nat 20's in a row to sneak up on him, then 3 more 20's in a row to crit him.

Needless to say, I have some baaaaaad luck. So I need a character that cannot die. A legit character, of course. First party sources only please. The system is 3.5. Ecl 9, 28000 gp for magic items and gear.

46 ogres you say? Sounds like a good day for Cloudkill and Control Winds. Especially if they're in caves, because Cloudkill will sink down into the caves and kill all kinds of stuff on it's way down. If your party is lacking a wizard, you might want to be a wizard. There are a lot of problems a level 9 wizard can solve. That may not make you the most able to survive of characters, but...

If Tome of Battle is on the table, I would suggest going Sword Sage. You're going to want good dexterity and wisdom, to pump your ac up. And good light armor, like +2 mithral chain shirt. You'll probably also want to utilize Diamond Mind maneuvers so that you can use Concentration checks instead of various things. Like saving throws. "What? Will Save? Nah, I'll make a concentration check instead" "What? Fort Save vs death magic? Nah, I'll concentration check instead". Skill checks do not fail on a 1, therefore if you can pump your concentration up high enough, even a 1 may not get you killed on a saving throw when using the right maneuver. Warblade would also work for this plan, but they get fewer maneuvers known and prepared, so you would wind up having fewer not-saving-yourself options to use in combat.

Crusader is also from Tome of Battle, and the whole 'hit them to heal' thing is part of the Devoted Spirit Discipline. It's not impossible to snipe some maneuvers out of Devoted Spirit with the other two base classes (Sword Sage and Warblade), but Crusader has the most access to it.

You'll probably want to have someone use See Invisibility when the fight for the compound is going on. It seems like the kind of place that Ogre Mages would be hanging invisibly, possibly just levitating in the air like creepers.

Feral (From Savage Species) and Mineral Warrior (from whatever that was from) are some pretty obnoxious stacking with fast healing and DR, but they murder your mental stats. Kind of hilarious on a barbarian though.

*As far as I am aware.

Man, there are a lot more factors going on here than the first post let on about. I think that ghost plan is probably a good idea, and I would suggest mixing in levels of Sword Sage if it's on the table as an option. Because nothing says 'you die now' like Shadow Hand maneuvers. And being incorporeal is pretty amazing in 3.5, even opponents with magic weapons only have a 50% chance to hit against you, meaning they need ghost touch weapons to get regular attacks against you. It makes it a lot easier to survive when most attacks can't actually hurt you.

That said, if Psionics is off the table, I kind of expect Tome of Battle to also be off the table. That just seems to trend together when I've talked to people about stuff in 3.5.

So, bearing that in mind- a ghost-rogue is actually going to be highly effective. Because most of their damage comes from sneak attack. So Human Ghost Rogue/Assassin might get you where you want to be, eventually. Since Assassin still advanced sneak attack and nets you Hide In Plain Sight. Then again, I don't know if Hide In Plain Sight would even be necessary for you, but, whatever. Point is, you won't need to worry about having a +50 sword of stormageddons to do the bulk of your damage, so whether or not you can update your gear isn't as much of an issue. Keeping your remains safe might be though. And that's where a bag of holding on a trusted party member would come into play. Or even a secret chest spell or something, maybe?

[Esprit15]

Trollblooded gheden are always a fun way to ignore most damage. Luck feats are a nice way to give some insurance against natural 1's. Luck domain gives you one reroll per day. I could see an half-undead cleric to one of the luck gods that takes some of those and DMM: Persist being a rather hardy character.

[ATHATH]

Trollblooded gheden are always a fun way to ignore most damage. Luck feats are a nice way to give some insurance against natural 1's. Luck domain gives you one reroll per day. I could see an half-undead cleric to one of the luck gods that takes some of those and DMM: Persist being a rather hardy character.
Wasn't there a luck feat that turned natural 1s into (natural?) 20s?

[Venger]

Wasn't there a luck feat that turned natural 1s into (natural?) 20s?

better lucky than good

[Eldariel]

Oh yeah! Cleric can get Pride-domain to practically negate 1s on saves.

[Esprit15]

better lucky than good

Yep. Friend had a factotum in an old game that had almost nothing but luck feats (and maybe something like power attack or improved trip, or something else for basic combat ability), and his go-to was "Oh, that's not good, I'll just reroll that... Oh, a natural 1? It's a 20... Picking locks? Never done this befor- oh, this isn't so hard..." The really nice things with the luck feats is that they are great for powering one another, too. Sure, there are better ways to deal "Let me break out the calculator" levels of damage, or being the mage that has any spell needed at their beck and call, but there is a bit of satisfaction at being able to laugh off bad rolls.

Obviously it isn't fool proof, based on what sounds like a pretty brutal DM, but it's always nice to try and remove as much of the chance of things going wrong as you can.

[ArendK]

After reading this; DM sounds like either an idiot or a goofy teenager who doesn't want to put more thought into the mechanics (psionics/ToB etc. etc.) and just get a power trip off watching other characters die in an imaginary game. I think it was a common sentiment that it is better to have no game than a horrific game around here. This guys shenanigans would have received a polite decline for invitations to his game.

[Stryyke]

After reading this; DM sounds like either an idiot or a goofy teenager who doesn't want to put more thought into the mechanics (psionics/ToB etc. etc.) and just get a power trip off watching other characters die in an imaginary game. I think it was a common sentiment that it is better to have no game than a horrific game around here. This guys shenanigans would have received a polite decline for invitations to his game.

Perhaps. But like I said, it's this or nothing. I could DM a game, but I have no way of finding players. It turns out that it's far easier to say "It's better no game than this game," than to actually have no game. It's basically the only human interaction I get.

[exelsisxax]

Perhaps. But like I said, it's this or nothing. I could DM a game, but I have no way of finding players. It turns out that it's far easier to say "It's better no game than this game," than to actually have no game. It's basically the only human interaction I get.

Have you tried toll20? If you get lucky(or start looking for people on a forum like this) you can end up with a group of people that are all as invested in you in both having fun and actually playing the game.

[ArendK]

Perhaps. But like I said, it's this or nothing. I could DM a game, but I have no way of finding players. It turns out that it's far easier to say "It's better no game than this game," than to actually have no game. It's basically the only human interaction I get.

I have been able to say "better no game than a terrible game." There's always a way to get something going; I had a game going out in the middle of a burning desert and we had an EXCESS of players. There's always a way.

edit- end point of the better no game than a terrible game statement; if you keep with terrible games, eventually it will taint your taste for the game.

[Stryyke]

Have you tried toll20? If you get lucky(or start looking for people on a forum like this) you can end up with a group of people that are all as invested in you in both having fun and actually playing the game.

Actually I have. I haven't found a game that really calls to me yet. Do you have any recommendations? I have voice, no video. I know 3.5, but no other system. But I'm not opposed to giving another system a try.

[Ironsmith]

Another option would be to build a character that has decent combat stats and to invest heavily in skills like Bluff, Intimidate, Hide/Move Silently and Diplomacy. That would give you a viable option for combat, while simultaneously leaving open the option of walking away from an encounter without risking getting killed, and possibly quite a bit richer.

At 9th level, the maximum number of ranks you can put into a skill is 12. For comparison, the Intimidate check that would be required to subdue a bog-standard, no-class-levels, ripped-straight-from-the-book ogre would be 18 (10 + 4 HD + 0 Wis bonus + 4 size bonus), meaning you would only need a 6 or better to succeed (in other words, a 75% chance that you can avoid an encounter with an ogre just by scaring it into soiling itself.) (This assumes the DM elects to take 10 on the ogre instead of rolling a separate level check, but even then, it comes out as +8 for it and +12 for you, so odds remain in your favor). If your party objects to this, remind them that a successful check gets them the backing of an ogre tribe for the next 10-60 in-game minutes, including possibly having them hand over their loot and weapons, without having to expend your wizard's fireballs or use up any other resource that could be more helpful down the road, and that they still get experience for defeating all those ogres.

If an encounter goes pear-shaped and your opponent is sapient, you could also use the Bluff skill (DC based on target's Sense Motive and Wisdom bonuses, which most monsters don't have in abundance) to create a diversion to Hide (DC based on target's Spot and Wisdom bonuses) which provides a relatively viable means of escape. You might be able to eschew the first step if you can argue that the other monsters are too busy mauling everyone else's corpses to pay attention to you. Move Silently is also helpful here if you want to get out of there without possibly attracting something else's attention.

If you elect to max ranks on Bluff, there's also the matter of skill synergies, in this case meaning an additional +2 bonus on your Intimidate checks due to having 5+ ranks in Bluff. And since all of this can be done with allocation of skill points, you don't necessarily have to give up any more combative aspects of your build to do it (meaning you can still pick feats, equipment, and spells if you have them, freely). Even the lowest-earning characters get 24 skill points by the time they hit 9th level, provided they don't have an Intelligence penalty. That number goes up to 36 if the character in question is a human.

A lot of amateur DMs (and players) neglect the Skill rules, so you should be prepared to cite the rules if you go this route there's any resistance (conveniently, these can all be found in chapter 4 of the Player's Handbook, under the headings of each of the skills mentioned here). Hopefully, this'll help expand the lifespan of your characters just a bit further.

[exelsisxax]

Actually I have. I haven't found a game that really calls to me yet. Do you have any recommendations? I have voice, no video. I know 3.5, but no other system. But I'm not opposed to giving another system a try.
For just finding something to play in, D&D 5E is the best bet just because of how popular it is on roll20 right now. Not much 3.5, but some PF games still running. Of course, you could always DM a game and do everything on your own terms.

[Eldariel]

Actually I have. I haven't found a game that really calls to me yet. Do you have any recommendations? I have voice, no video. I know 3.5, but no other system. But I'm not opposed to giving another system a try.

This game doesn't sound that bad to me TBH. This sounds like a no holds barred fight with rules to encourage otherwise unplayable monstrous races and players reaping the consequences of their actions. I feel like I would enjoy it and half the fun sounds to be trying to survive. Feels quite Gygaxian. And it's not a DM choice that the party picks a fight with the Ogres.

Sure, some things make no sense and there are some flaws in the DMing but overall, no kid gloves and no scaling world make for a game that looks like the player decisions. Embrace the style instead of trying to fight it and it might be quite enjoyable - which you seem to already be doing. Play it like Gygaxian D&D with monster races and make minions die for you and try your best to survive while doing stuff.

[Venger]

you might also look for a game on this board. we have a whole forum for it.

[Stryyke]

This game doesn't sound that bad to me TBH. This sounds like a no holds barred fight with rules to encourage otherwise unplayable monstrous races and players reaping the consequences of their actions. I feel like I would enjoy it and half the fun sounds to be trying to survive. Feels quite Gygaxian. And it's not a DM choice that the party picks a fight with the Ogres.

Sure, some things make no sense and there are some flaws in the DMing but overall, no kid gloves and no scaling world make for a game that looks like the player decisions. Embrace the style instead of trying to fight it and it might be quite enjoyable - which you seem to already be doing. Play it like Gygaxian D&D with monster races and make minions die for you and try your best to survive while doing stuff.

Generally speaking, you are correct. I have just accepted the game for what it is. But I would like a character to survive long enough to become invested in it. When you die so much, characters really become nothing more than some numbers on a page. I may as well just pick some starting numbers, and randomly roll dice. Characterization is what turns rolling dice into fighting a battle. I'm thinking you could be right that throwing meat shields at enemies may be the best path. That will be my next attempt. Ghost necromancer. Just throw dozens of undead at the enemy, and let them soak up the damage.

[Hellpyre]

If the ghost doesn't work out for you, Rakshasa provide you with 7 (explicitly stacking with class) levels of sorc for a +7 LA. You end up 1 level behind full caster as normal, but at least you stick close to a non-LA race without taking a hit for not using your 4. Plus, they are evil by definition.

[Esprit15]

If the ghost doesn't work out for you, Rakshasa provide you with 7 (explicitly stacking with class) levels of sorc for a +7 LA. You end up 1 level behind full caster as normal, but at least you stick close to a non-LA race without taking a hit for not using your 4. Plus, they are evil by definition.

How do you figure? They start at ECL 14.

[Hellpyre]

How do you figure? They start at ECL 14.

Ya know what, I was going from memory and managed to totally forget that they picked up the racial HD in addition to the LA penalty.

[zlefin]

convincing your dm to allow use of the revised LA calculations put forth on this forum would help the whole party live better.
can be found in this thread: (which has links to the rest of the work)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?532012-The-LA-assignment-thread-III-Now-in-HD!

[Stryyke]

convincing your dm to allow use of the revised LA calculations put forth on this forum would help the whole party live better.
can be found in this thread: (which has links to the rest of the work)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?532012-The-LA-assignment-thread-III-Now-in-HD!

I've actually tried. He has 3 jobs, though, so he said he doesn't have time to read through forums. Heck, I have to heckle him for weeks to remember to read an e-mail.

[ATHATH]

Perhaps. But like I said, it's this or nothing. I could DM a game, but I have no way of finding players. It turns out that it's far easier to say "It's better no game than this game," than to actually have no game. It's basically the only human interaction I get.
Well, are you having fun in this game? Is it a pleasurable experience? If the answer to those questions is "yes", then you should be fine.

[zlefin]

As a general power level note: (more for the rest of your party than you, as some o fthem also seem to be losing chars) the anthropomorphic animals in savage species are generally costed much more closely to a reasonable LA (and a few are even op IIRC).

[Elkad]

you might also look for a game on this board. we have a whole forum for it.

PbP is wildly different though. The rules might be the same, but the interaction isn't.

[EldritchWeaver]

I've actually tried. He has 3 jobs, though, so he said he doesn't have time to read through forums. Heck, I have to heckle him for weeks to remember to read an e-mail.

How about printing out one particular option (preferably a race you want to play) from this thread with the surrounding discussion as a small-bite teaser of these changes, so he can agree on allowing things on a case-by-case basis (no need to read the whole thread, just the favorite monsters)?

[Eldariel]

Generally speaking, you are correct. I have just accepted the game for what it is. But I would like a character to survive long enough to become invested in it. When you die so much, characters really become nothing more than some numbers on a page. I may as well just pick some starting numbers, and randomly roll dice. Characterization is what turns rolling dice into fighting a battle. I'm thinking you could be right that throwing meat shields at enemies may be the best path. That will be my next attempt. Ghost necromancer. Just throw dozens of undead at the enemy, and let them soak up the damage.

They can also deal some too. Monsters with natural attacks are generally preferable. Remember to combine Command Undead with Rebuke/Command Undead & Animate Dead/Desecrate. A lot of control pools - and if you create all your Undead with Desecrates with Altars they get a ton of bonus HP and are quite durable.

[Sagetim]

Generally speaking, you are correct. I have just accepted the game for what it is. But I would like a character to survive long enough to become invested in it. When you die so much, characters really become nothing more than some numbers on a page. I may as well just pick some starting numbers, and randomly roll dice. Characterization is what turns rolling dice into fighting a battle. I'm thinking you could be right that throwing meat shields at enemies may be the best path. That will be my next attempt. Ghost necromancer. Just throw dozens of undead at the enemy, and let them soak up the damage.

I mean, you said No Cheese, but I would be remiss if I didn't bring up the build that another thread wound up at for the cheesiest necromancer ever. I'm not recalling the entire thing off hand, but a strong part of it included True Necromancer, and a bag of holding. You know, to keep all the ghost cats in. Because being a crazy cat lady with a bag full of ghost cats was the eventual landing point. Plus, you could throw the bag to get the ghosts to deploy where you want them to, or invert it to send them all meowing out at once.

I suppose my point is: Ghost Cats. They'll have such low hit dice that you'll be able to make a Lot of them, and they'll still be dangerous, because ghosts and swarm.

Edit: Oh right, it was this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527060-need-a-god-awfully-cheesy-build) And apparently I went full cheese by suggesting the awakening of the undead cats so they could be trained as maneuver using classes, in addition to be ghost cats. Because nothing says cheese quite like incorporeal Meowtain Hammer.