[DSP] Help Me Optimize this Phantom Thief Rogue?

[Dr_Dinosaur]

How would you go about optimizing a Phantom Thief/Hidden Blade UnRogue? I'm thinking of investing heavily into Intimidate and Black Seraph stuff, including the style feat chain to get that pseudo-Aura of Cowardice at 11, but aside from that I'm not sure what feats/talents to select. Is pumping Dex even worth it since so many Intimidation feats require Power Attack?

[Castilonium]

Do you really want to be a Phantom Thief/Hidden Blade UnRogue? It has no class features that improve hit chance or damage since it gives up both sneak attack and debilitating injury, and the only thing it gets to make up for that is +1/2 class level to a few skills. Why not play a Vigilante Stalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/stalker/stalker-archetypes/vigilante/)? It gets inspiration like an investigator so it's good at skills, full sneak attack progression, and 9th level maneuvers. The Killer's Implements stalker art gives you weapon finesse and dex to damage with any weapon of your choice, even if it's not a finesse weapon, like a greatsword.

[exelsisxax]

How would you go about optimizing a Phantom Thief/Hidden Blade UnRogue? I'm thinking of investing heavily into Intimidate and Black Seraph stuff, including the style feat chain to get that pseudo-Aura of Cowardice at 11, but aside from that I'm not sure what feats/talents to select. Is pumping Dex even worth it since so many Intimidation feats require Power Attack?

Have to agree with castilonium on this one: don't.

Phantom thief and hidden blade gut eachother's purpose and neither of them lends themselves to an intimidate build. PT rips out ALL your sneak attack and debilitating injury for more options for rogue talents and more skills/unlocks. This is for being the best skillmonkey and sucking hard at combat. Hidden blade removes most of your rogue talents for weak maneuver progression, which kind of suck on a rogue chassis that lost SA damage. And you'd need to use a trait just to get black seraph anyway. This combination is fighting AGAINST what you want to do with it.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Have to agree with castilonium on this one: don't.

Phantom thief and hidden blade gut eachother's purpose and neither of them lends themselves to an intimidate build. PT rips out ALL your sneak attack and debilitating injury for more options for rogue talents and more skills/unlocks. This is for being the best skillmonkey and sucking hard at combat. Hidden blade removes most of your rogue talents for weak maneuver progression, which kind of suck on a rogue chassis that lost SA damage. And you'd need to use a trait just to get black seraph anyway. This combination is fighting AGAINST what you want to do with it.
What I want to do with it is be a Phantom Thief that isn't totally useless in combat, actually. And Hidden Blade with Black Seraph (through a trait, yes) has plenty of Intimidate stuff.

Although, I considered instead going Phantom Thief/Underground Chemist VMC Alchemist for the bombs and Int synergy. Would that be better? I'd at least be great at splash damage with some crafting on the side.

[exelsisxax]

What I want to do with it is be a Phantom Thief that isn't totally useless in combat, actually. And Hidden Blade with Black Seraph (through a trait, yes) has plenty of Intimidate stuff.

Although, I considered instead going Phantom Thief/Underground Chemist VMC Alchemist for the bombs and Int synergy. Would that be better? I'd at least be great at splash damage with some crafting on the side.

I would say that it isn't. You're giving up feats that you desperately need to make an intimidate build work, an in exchange getting something that does less damage than sneak attack a few times per day as standard actions, while phantom thief cripples your combat value. It's basically a dramatically weakened alchemist, but with skill unlocks instead of extracts, which is nowhere near a fair trade.

What are you actually trying to accomplish with this? phantom thief/hidden blade is always a bad idea because they're diametrically opposed. Beyond that, I just don't know what you're after.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I would say that it isn't. You're giving up feats that you desperately need to make an intimidate build work, an in exchange getting something that does less damage than sneak attack a few times per day as standard actions, while phantom thief cripples your combat value. It's basically a dramatically weakened alchemist, but with skill unlocks instead of extracts, which is nowhere near a fair trade.
Well the idea there was to be a Phantom Thief with combat options and to be better at Alchemy crafting than the Alchemist. Several d6 of bomb damage plus Int doesn't seem that bad. I wouldn't be building for Intimidate on the Chemist version obviously.

What are you actually trying to accomplish with this? phantom thief/hidden blade is always a bad idea because they're diametrically opposed. Beyond that, I just don't know what you're after.
I don't see how they're "diametrically opposed" is all. One loses damage for skills and the other adds damage back in. I'm after a way to patch the Phantom Thief's major weakness. Also, you mention desperately needing feats but I can take Combat Trick as much as I want thanks to Broad Education.

[Elricaltovilla]

I think you're likely to get everything you want easier with a different class unless what you want is to use Phantom Thief. From what you've described, you're likely to get more out of a Polymath Alchemist. It has alchemy, skills, maneuvers and bombs all rolled into one.

[exelsisxax]

Well the idea there was to be a Phantom Thief with combat options and to be better at Alchemy crafting than the Alchemist. Several d6 of bomb damage plus Int doesn't seem that bad. I wouldn't be building for Intimidate on the Chemist version obviously.

I don't see how they're "diametrically opposed" is all. One loses damage for skills and the other adds damage back in. I'm after a way to patch the Phantom Thief's major weakness. Also, you mention desperately needing feats but I can take Combat Trick as much as I want thanks to Broad Education.

VMC alchemist doesn't give int to bomb damage because they don't get throw anything, so it's less damage less times per day without the discoveries to back it up. A normal rogue does more damage multiple times per round an unlimited number of times per day. You also won't be able to get the action economy advantage with alchemical items that makes them worthwhile.

If you want useful bombs on an initiator, polymath alchemist as suggested above. You might also be able to swing a bomb investigator? If you want a fighty skillmonkey, the investigator is right there. You're trying to give up sneak attack anyway. Polymath archetype again provides initiating for weakened alchemy.

Polymath, along with warpath followers, are some of the most OP PoW options because they have dual 6th spellcasting/extracts and initiating. It's kind of crazy.

What exactly are you going for that you think phantom thief is a good way to get it?

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I don't think I was clear. There are Two potential builds here. The Intimidation-focused Hidden Blade/Phantom Thief, and the crafting-focused Underground Chemist/Phantom Thief.

The Hidden Blade build takes the Black Seraph feats as Rogue Talents and the discipline as a trait, focusing on creating and exploiting fear with those nice skill unlocks and bonuses.

Underground Chemist build gets Int to bomb damage via Chemical Weapons and my group has allowed chained Rogue talents so Bomber adds more uses. Between Refined Education, Chemical Weapons, and VMC Alchemist, I'm adding twice my level to all Craft (Alchemy) checks and my ranks plus 1/2 my level to which skill unlocks I have.

[Elricaltovilla]

I think you're going to be disappointed with either of your two options, but between the two I'd have to recommend Underground Chemist/Phantom Thief as it comes online much earlier and is less MAD. If you weren't trying to hamfist an intimidate build into the Hidden Blade it might be better but your build will be seriously handicapped by the state requirements for intimidate feats and how late the ability to overcome fear immunity comes online.

[exelsisxax]

I don't think I was clear. There are Two potential builds here. The Intimidation-focused Hidden Blade/Phantom Thief, and the crafting-focused Underground Chemist/Phantom Thief.

The Hidden Blade build takes the Black Seraph feats as Rogue Talents and the discipline as a trait, focusing on creating and exploiting fear with those nice skill unlocks and bonuses.

Underground Chemist build gets Int to bomb damage via Chemical Weapons and my group has allowed chained Rogue talents so Bomber adds more uses. Between Refined Education, Chemical Weapons, and VMC Alchemist, I'm adding twice my level to all Craft (Alchemy) checks and my ranks plus 1/2 my level to which skill unlocks I have.

Phantom thief has no sneak attack: Bomber bombs have 0 base damage and are useless, and so underground chemist loses 4th lv rogue talent in return for nothing. Having to wait until 7th level to get bombs that deal damage doesn't sound great to me for a rogue without evasion, trapsense/finding, sneak attack, or debilitating injury. But at least you don't have to stand next to people like the hidden blade does?

[Elricaltovilla]

If you forego the intimidation stuff you could make up for your zero sneak attack damage with hidden blade by using broken blade and primal fury. I wouldn't normally Advocate using those two disciplines, but you're going to be sorely lacking on your DPR with your build as is.