Can you help me blend Sorcerer with Arcane Trickster without MC.

[Corinath]

Hello everyone!

So I'm running a Lost Mines of Phandelver group right now. One of my players wants to create her character in the vein of Aelin from the Throne of Glass books. Short version, she functions like a blend of fire-magic-only sorcerer with assassin. Since LMoP only runs the first five levels, I'm trying to home-brew a class design that feels like what she's trying to accomplish so she can sort of play that the whole time.

Of course, the danger is she can't be too combat powerful, particularly since I have a sword-and-board fighter (subclass unknown) and a rogue (eventual Arcane Trickster) already in the party.

Here are some basic thoughts I've had so far. Am I balancing her properly? Or is she too powerful?

She rolled good stats for MAD, weirdly enough. Three 16s and two 14s.

Is it balanced to trade font of magic (all SP and meta magic) for Sneak Attack? I'm considering giving her the sorcerer chassie, D8 health, rogue weapon proficiency (no expertise), and limiting all of her magic to fire only spells (Burning hands, absorb elements for fire, hellish rebuke)?

Level 2 (Spells or Cunning Action)

Level 3 would be flavor with fire stuff (reskinning mage hand to become a unique on demand fire conjured weaponry that requires a bonus action to use, ultimately has no effect on DPR, but enhances her flexibility in combat on demand by not drawing or sheathing weapons)

Level 4 per usual

Level 5 (Spells or Evasion)

So, ultimately what I'm trying to figure out is this: Is allowing Sneak Attack dice and Full Casting possible if I take away huge elements of the respective classes? No expertise. No multiple skills, No sorcery points. No meta-magic. ONLY fire spells? Would I need to bump it down to half-casting?

What I don't want is to have to force her to multi-class in such a tiny module at such low levels.

I've alternatively thought about reverse-engineering the spell progression table of Arcane Trickster to go all the way back to level one and allowing her one or two level one spell slots.

Thoughts? My brain is mush.

Thank you!

[Kane0]

Ooh, tough. Any reason multiclassing isn't an option?

Maybe instead of trying to mash together two rather disparate classes, something unique so the rogue in the party doesn't feel like they are missing out?
Perhaps something from the Middle Finger of Vecna would be of use? Most of their brew is at least as balanced as UA material.
Also potentially my invoker but I don't want to go self promoting.

[Officer Joy]

Haven't read those books. But is it possible to just make an assasin background, and a pure sorcerer(draconic for the fire flavour)

If you want sneak attack I would suggest starting with the rogue class and build a similar subclass to AT, or just use AT with fire spells.
I wouldn't do that as there already will be an AT. which will make it harder for them to feel different.


I wouldn't trade away font/meta, thats the unique ability of the sorcerer.

I would make a new subclass for sorcerer and leave everything else as is. I'm away from book right now. So it's probably a bit weak right now, but what about;
Expertise sneak at lvl one.
And a cantrip with attack roll inspired by what you want to use the refuffed magehand for.
2d4 damage, but 3d4 if you have advantage. For the rogue feel.

(But do push for taking the subtle meta-magic)

What are things Aelin can do in the book?

Edit:

Ooh, tough. Any reason multiclassing isn't an option?


Since LMoP only runs the first five levels, I'm trying to home-brew a class design that feels like what she's trying to accomplish so she can sort of play that the whole time!

[Corinath]

Haven't read those books. But is it possible to just make an assasin background, and a pure sorcerer(draconic for the fire flavour)

If you want sneak attack I would suggest starting with the rogue class and build a similar subclass to AT, or just use AT with fire spells.
I wouldn't do that as there already will be an AT. which will make it harder for them to feel different.

I wouldn't trade away font/meta, thats the unique ability of the sorcerer.

I would make a new subclass for sorcerer and leave everything else as is. I'm away from book right now. So it's probably a bit weak right now, but what about;
Expertise sneak at lvl one.
And a cantrip with attack roll inspired by what you want to use the refuffed magehand for.
2d4 damage, but 3d4 if you have advantage. For the rogue feel.

(But do push for taking the subtle meta-magic)

What are things Aelin can do in the book?

I'd thought about expertise stealth only! :D Just left it off because I didn't want our party AT to feel left out. I may home-brew him some stuff too to compensate, as he's basically building Itachi from Naruoto. Literally named his character that. :)

My current rebuffed mage-hand was basically using a bonus action to create fire shortswords or bow/arrow. One bonus action creates one weapon (thus two rounds are required to dual wield, or one round where you use your action as well). On creation you choose precision (which lowers the dice to D4 or D6 but can trigger sneak attack) or overflowing (which raises damage to D10 per firebolt progression, but cannot trigger sneak attack)

Aelin's background in the book is basically a fae fire sorcerer as a child. She's a bit of a prototypical overpowered heroine, but if I boiled it down she'd be a sorcerer. EXCEPT before she even reaches the age of 10 her family is killed and she's taken in by a guild of assassins. She winds up using a blend of her supernatural speed and abilities to become a proficient assassin.

Most of her time in the book is spent being a flat out assassin with the occasional metamorphosis into a ridiculously strong fae creature or sorceress. If we had time to do a full MC, she'd wind up something like 10-12 Arcane Trickster and the remaining would be Sorcerer.

She *does* use magic like an EK uses war magic, when the time is fitting (she's not hiding her spell abilities).


Ooh, tough. Any reason multiclassing isn't an option?

Maybe instead of trying to mash together two rather disparate classes, something unique so the rogue in the party doesn't feel like they are missing out?
Perhaps something from the Middle Finger of Vecna would be of use? Most of their brew is at least as balanced as UA material.
Also potentially my invoker but I don't want to go self promoting.

What's the Middle Finger of Vecna? I've never heard of that before.

Also I'm totally willing to see your invoker. I'm open to everything at the moment to try and balance SA with spell progression.

[Edit this section removed because I'm blind :D ]

[Kane0]

Middle Finger of Vecna. (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/)

I think you've prompted me to create a sneaky invoker subclass now. Off to work I go!

[Corinath]

Middle Finger of Vecna. (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/)

I think you've prompted me to create a sneaky invoker subclass now. Off to work I go!

WOOOOOoooo!

[Officer Joy]

I'd thought about expertise stealth only! :D Just left it off because I didn't want our party AT to feel left out. I may home-brew him some stuff too to compensate, as he's basically building Itachi from Naruoto. Literally named his character that. :)

I never played rogue myself, but the rogues I have played with always had lots of trouble going out scouting on their own. So 2 expert sneekers is twice as safe.



My current rebuffed mage-hand was basically using a bonus action to create fire shortswords or bow/arrow. One bonus action creates one weapon (thus two rounds are required to dual wield, or one round where you use your action as well). On creation you choose precision (which lowers the dice to D4 or D6 but can trigger sneak attack) or overflowing (which raises damage to D10 per firebolt progression, but cannot trigger sneak attack)

That seems very expensive action economy wise, and the choosing of precision a weird mechanic (but then so is the cantrip I made)



Aelin's background in the book is basically a fae fire sorcerer as a child. She's a bit of a prototypical overpowered heroine, but if I boiled it down she'd be a sorcerer. EXCEPT before she even reaches the age of 10 her family is killed and she's taken in by a guild of assassins. She winds up using a blend of her supernatural speed and abilities to become a proficient assassin.

Most of her time in the book is spent being a flat out assassin with the occasional metamorphosis into a ridiculously strong fae creature or sorceress. If we had time to do a full MC, she'd wind up something like 10-12 Arcane Trickster and the remaining would be Sorcerer.

She *does* use magic like an EK uses war magic, when the time is fitting (she's not hiding her spell abilities).


The trouble of course is that she obviously isn't a 1st lvl character at the start of the book. From your description I'd wildly guess a Lvl 10 rogue-Lvl 3 Sorcerer
With lvl's sorcerer increasing as the book continues.
So to follow book progression, you'd only lvl sorcerer.

[Corinath]

I never played rogue myself, but the rogues I have played with always had lots of trouble going out scouting on their own. So 2 expert sneekers is twice as safe.


That seems very expensive action economy wise, and the choosing of precision a weird mechanic (but then so is the cantrip I made)



The trouble of course is that she obviously isn't a 1st lvl character at the start of the book. From your description I'd wildly guess a Lvl 10 rogue-Lvl 3 Sorcerer
With lvl's sorcerer increasing as the book continues.
So to follow book progression, you'd only lvl sorcerer.

Yeah it is expensive action economy wise and that's sort of by design. I was hoping this would balance the fact that we have a rogue that is dedicated to rogue things in the party, but doesn't have casting like she does. So maybe it would balance out? She'd have to use bonus actions for three full rounds to get her weapons ready AND attack with both of them, which puts her behind the rogue. BUT she also has spells like Burning Hands and Hellish Rebuke at her disposal, and the rogue doesn't.

I dont know my head hurts. LoL.

I do like your idea too though, and am definitely considering it. It balances it more without straining action economy.

[Talionis]

Haven't read those books. But is it possible to just make an assasin background, and a pure sorcerer(draconic for the fire flavour)

If you want sneak attack I would suggest starting with the rogue class and build a similar subclass to AT, or just use AT with fire spells.
I wouldn't do that as there already will be an AT. which will make it harder for them to feel different.


I wouldn't trade away font/meta, thats the unique ability of the sorcerer.

I would make a new subclass for sorcerer and leave everything else as is. I'm away from book right now. So it's probably a bit weak right now, but what about;
Expertise sneak at lvl one.
And a cantrip with attack roll inspired by what you want to use the refuffed magehand for.
2d4 damage, but 3d4 if you have advantage. For the rogue feel.

(But do push for taking the subtle meta-magic)

What are things Aelin can do in the book?

Edit:

I like the idea of a new subclass, but here is a second suggestion.

My suggestion is to multiclass 1 rogue then 1 sorcerer then 1rogue again, etc. But refluff the resulting multiclass into its a new class.

[Kane0]

Ghostwalker subclass v1.0 up now if interested.

If you do end up going with an Invoker please let me know how it goes! Always looking for feedback.

[Corinath]

I like the idea of a new subclass, but here is a second suggestion.

My suggestion is to multiclass 1 rogue then 1 sorcerer then 1rogue again, etc. But refluff the resulting multiclass into its a new class.

One of the options I was thinking of was balancing both first levels, then going level by level and selecting a class but calling it equally.

I.E. Level two would choose either Cunning Action or a greater spell casting ability.

I think it just gets weird when I get to three and try to balance a half cast with a whole cast. :-/

[Officer Joy]

Yeah it is expensive action economy wise and that's sort of by design.
Someone around here has(had) a quote in their signiture

You can't balance a bad mechanic by making it annoying to use
Don't remember what it was for, but I feel it's appropriate advise here.


One of the options I was thinking of was balancing both first levels, then going level by level and selecting a class but calling it equally.

I.E. Level two would choose either Cunning Action or a greater spell casting ability.

I think it just gets weird when I get to three and try to balance a half cast with a whole cast. :-/
Yeah that's very hard to balance and you probably will end up with incompatible features.

But as long as you do the selecting beforehand and really think about the balance it probably is doable.



Lvl 1
Thieves Cant
Expertiese in sneak
Light armor proficient
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 45 feet
Components: M(a sharp dagger)
Duration: Instantaneous

A fiery blade appears near a creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, it strikes them and the target takes 2d4 fire damage.
If you had advantage it takes an extra d4 fire damage
This spell’s damage increases when you reach
5th level (4d4 +2d4), 11th level (6d4 +3d4), and 17th level (8d4 +4d4).

Lvl 6
Add Charisma to Striking flame Cantrip damage
Uncanny dodge, Can use reaction and spend 1 Sorcery point to half all damage till the start of your next turn.


You probably won’t need it but.

Lvl 14
One with the crowd,
You can move while hidden if there are more than 5 not-enemies of your target around.

Lvl 18
Death strike.
Starting at 18th level, you become a master of instant death. When you attack and hit a creature while hidden with a Striking flame, it must make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your Dexterity modifier + your proficiency bonus). On a failed save, add your Dexterity modifier and double the damage of your attack against the creature.

[Hrugner]

Take a hexblade warlock as your basic chassis. Give them sneak attack and rogue starting skills in exchange for their first two evocations. Give them cunning action instead of their pact boon. Add appropriate fire spells to their spell list, or convert some spells to fire damage where appropriate.

[imanidiot]

I don't see why they can't play an Arcane Trickster and replace the requirement for Illusion or Enchantment spells with one for spells that deal fire damage.

You can easily refluff lots of spells by changing their damage type to fire. Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp, Magic Missle, Thunderwave, Cloud of Daggers, Shatter, 3rd level and higher you won't have trouble finding fire spells.

Change things as little as possible. The existing rules can be use with minor tweaks to portray almost every character in any media.

[Varlon]

Change things as little as possible. The existing rules can be use with minor tweaks to portray almost every character in any media.

Speaking of...variant human rogue, Magic Initiate Sorcerer/Wizard for Fire Bolt, something else, and 1/day Burning Hands. Boom, fire assassin from level 1. Trying to do anything more is asking for trouble.

[Officer Joy]

Speaking of...variant human rogue, Magic Initiate Sorcerer/Wizard for Fire Bolt, something else, and 1/day Burning Hands. Boom, fire assassin from level 1. Trying to do anything more is asking for trouble.
Simple and elegant. Best idea in the thread so far.

Sure, there will be 2 rogues, but that's what the players wanted.

[Corinath]

Speaking of...variant human rogue, Magic Initiate Sorcerer/Wizard for Fire Bolt, something else, and 1/day Burning Hands. Boom, fire assassin from level 1. Trying to do anything more is asking for trouble.

This is an excellent point and I may go down that road and just not call it human. Drow is effectively the closest we get to her "race" if we trade out superior DV for regular DV and get rid of sunlight sensitivity. Fae trances. Resistant to charm and sleep. Weapon training. Couple of spells / cantrips. etc.

Thanks for the suggestion!

EDIT: I'm now realizing that the game's version of Fae and the book's version of fae aren't necessarily the same thing. As far as I'm aware, despite fae ancestry, Aelin needs a full night sleep and is just as susceptible to spells as anyone else. I'll definitely be considering this.


I don't see why they can't play an Arcane Trickster and replace the requirement for Illusion or Enchantment spells with one for spells that deal fire damage.

You can easily refluff lots of spells by changing their damage type to fire. Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp, Magic Missle, Thunderwave, Cloud of Daggers, Shatter, 3rd level and higher you won't have trouble finding fire spells.

Change things as little as possible. The existing rules can be use with minor tweaks to portray almost every character in any media.

It does make sense. It's just something I'm trying to distinguish because we already have an AT who is fashioning themselves after Itachi from Naruto... which is an assassin that uses magic. LoL. So... Yeah.

Also if I recall correctly fire is the most resisted spell damage type in the game, which is why it also tends to do more damage right? So I may want to bump some of the other spells up slightly by +2 sides to a die.


Take a hexblade warlock as your basic chassis. Give them sneak attack and rogue starting skills in exchange for their first two evocations. Give them cunning action instead of their pact boon. Add appropriate fire spells to their spell list, or convert some spells to fire damage where appropriate.

I don't honestly know much about warlocks so I'll have to give them a read, but thanks for pointing me in that direction!


Someone around here has(had) a quote in their signiture

Don't remember what it was for, but I feel it's appropriate advise here.


Yeah that's very hard to balance and you probably will end up with incompatible features.

But as long as you do the selecting beforehand and really think about the balance it probably is doable.



Lvl 1
Thieves Cant
Expertiese in sneak
Light armor proficient
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 45 feet
Components: M(a sharp dagger)
Duration: Instantaneous

A fiery blade appears near a creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, it strikes them and the target takes 2d4 fire damage.
If you had advantage it takes an extra d4 fire damage
This spell’s damage increases when you reach
5th level (4d4 +2d4), 11th level (6d4 +3d4), and 17th level (8d4 +4d4).

Lvl 6
Add Charisma to Striking flame Cantrip damage
Uncanny dodge, Can use reaction and spend 1 Sorcery point to half all damage till the start of your next turn.


You probably won’t need it but.

Lvl 14
One with the crowd,
You can move while hidden if there are more than 5 not-enemies of your target around.

Lvl 18
Death strike.
Starting at 18th level, you become a master of instant death. When you attack and hit a creature while hidden with a Striking flame, it must make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your Dexterity modifier + your proficiency bonus). On a failed save, add your Dexterity modifier and double the damage of your attack against the creature.

Thanks! I hadn't considered the bad mechanic isn't a solution to it and that's definitely making me rethink that route. Totally on point.

[Corinath]

Sure, there will be 2 rogues, but that's what the players wanted.

Yeah. LoL. Another good point.

[Spore]

I'm now realizing that the game's version of Fae and the book's version of fae aren't necessarily the same thing. As far as I'm aware, despite fae ancestry, Aelin needs a full night sleep and is just as susceptible to spells as anyone else. I'll definitely be considering this.

Are you planning an hommage or outright rebuilding? The latter never works because a D&D group context is entirely different to a novel. In a novel the author decides if something fails or suceeds, in a game the dice do.


This is an excellent point and I may go down that road and just not call it human. Drow is effectively the closest we get to her "race" if we trade out superior DV for regular DV and get rid of sunlight sensitivity. Fae trances. Resistant to charm and sleep. Weapon training. Couple of spells / cantrips. etc.

I would be careful with that. It seems this player gets a lot of attention. Check if everyone is fine with the additional care her character gets. Additionally what I can extract from Aelin's wiki page is that she should be 5th or 6th level by the time the books start (her being 16, with her first kill at 9). Remind the player that she cannot live up to the book completely as the adventure is lower level and she would outshine her comrades.

[Corinath]

Are you planning an hommage or outright rebuilding? The latter never works because a D&D group context is entirely different to a novel. In a novel the author decides if something fails or suceeds, in a game the dice do.



I would be careful with that. It seems this player gets a lot of attention. Check if everyone is fine with the additional care her character gets. Additionally what I can extract from Aelin's wiki page is that she should be 5th or 6th level by the time the books start (her being 16, with her first kill at 9). Remind the player that she cannot live up to the book completely as the adventure is lower level and she would outshine her comrades.

Well not a rebuilding. As far as I'm aware by the end of the novels she's practically around level 20 if not outright so. This is more of a "how would I ramp up to that if that was a level 20" thing. So far the Magic Initiate idea is far and away the most graceful.

To your second point, I'm the one obsessing over the balance of this and not her. If I outright told her "this isn't possible", she'd just say alright and move on. But I rather like the challenge of balance. On our main campaign one of our other players wanted to play a "Thor" like character, so we went through about a week of effort or so figuring out how to balance that, and so far, after two years, it's worked wonderfully.

She knows she won't ever reach the point of the character in the books, particularly at this level. I'm just trying to get a bit of the flavor of it in there for her to feel like a cool fiery assassin.

I'm... not entirely certain how I should be cautious of re-skinning variant human as a fae-like race outside of game politics, which I'm personally not worried about. Of our player group, one is her best friend (who I created "Thor" for), another is her nephew (who has wanted to play with us for years as he normally DMs his own games), another is a good friend who doesn't care about power or balance and literally just wants to do the funniest thing possible ala Harmon Quest, and the last player is completely completely new to DND and I admittedly don't know much about him.

As a case-in-point, we use Roll20 and I asked the party what image they wanted me to use as the party icon when on the "world map" (the one with Neverwinter and such). The immediate response was "Drunken Nicholas Cage", everyone laughed, and now we have drunk Nick Cage as our party icon. LoL.

We're a really laid back group in whole, so I think as long as my efforts are in good faith and as balanced as possible, everyone's going to just enjoy the game and crack jokes. :)

EDIT: Just to clarify, the current solution is to call her race something like "Faeborn", give her the variant human chassis, pick Magic Initiate Sorcerer with Firebolt, Burning Hands, and another cantrip, and then go down Rogue / Arcane Trickster while reskinning mage hand for fire things. It seems, thus far, like the best solution, yes?

[Varlon]

I forgot that there are more fire cantrips in the extra books; you've got Control Flames, Create Bonfire, and Green-Flame Blade readily available. All are good candidates, but GFB probably works best mechanically and flavor-wise.

[imanidiot]

EDIT: Just to clarify, the current solution is to call her race something like "Faeborn", give her the variant human chassis, pick Magic Initiate Sorcerer with Firebolt, Burning Hands, and another cantrip, and then go down Rogue / Arcane Trickster while reskinning mage hand for fire things. It seems, thus far, like the best solution, yes?

It seems like you've got a pretty good handle on this. The only thing I would do is make sure that the players know that these rules are being used for THESE characters. Just because you let her play a Faeborn doesn't mean that they can pick that in the future. I don't think you'll have a problem with your group, but it sounds like you're using a lot of homebrew rules. So just make sure everyone is on the same page and stays on the same page.

[GorogIrongut]

If it were me doing this, instead of using ranger or sorceror, I would use the Deep Stalker Ranger. It's a half caster and is bad ass in combat. Ranger has a whole host of abilities that arguably could be considered Rogue adjacent.

All you would really need to do is rejig the spell list that a ranger gets. Swap out ranger spells for thematically appropriate (and balanced) fire based magic (and potentially rogueish magic). Remember that rangers don't get cantrips, so this would have to be part of the rejig to get access to firebolt/gfb. Or you could allow your player to use a race that gets access to the firebolt cantrip and just re 'skin' the HElf/Eladrin/etc. as a human.

I just went back and reread your post and you discussed calling her character Faeborn... That sounds a lot like the most recently released rules for Eladrin to me. So you could get firebolt without having to reskin anything. You could tweak the 'seasons' to fit within the theme your player wants... and she could have access to everything without having them all at once.

Shifting Seasons Cantrips
Autumn Friends (deffo rogue feel to this one)
Winter Chill touch (I'd swap this one out for Produce Flame)
Spring Minor illusion (Another selection that meshes well with Rogue)
Summer Fire bolt (This of course fits well with the fire theme)

So really you would only have to swap out Chill Touch for Produce Flame and your player would be set.

[Spore]

I'm... not entirely certain how I should be cautious of re-skinning variant human as a fae-like race outside of game politics.

I am not a fan of Vhuman as a concept (as it brightly outshines any other option) but I do like the customization with a 1st level feat.




EDIT: Just to clarify, the current solution is to call her race something like "Faeborn", give her the variant human chassis, pick Magic Initiate Sorcerer with Firebolt, Burning Hands, and another cantrip, and then go down Rogue / Arcane Trickster while reskinning mage hand for fire things. It seems, thus far, like the best solution, yes?

Because of the afforementioned criticism I would rather not use Magic Initiate for that but rather bake it in for into the Faeborn custom race. (This way she can also select Magic Initate as her 4th level feat).


Demi-Fae usually retain the Fae traits of increased strength, speed, and senses.

Due to not being completely Fae, some Demi-Fae are born with little to no magical abilities and some, like Aelin, are born with magical abilities.

Some Demi-Fae still retain the ability to shift into a mortal form like Fae.

Str +1 Dex + 2 (Variant Dex+2/Cha+1)

Size is medium.

Fleet of Foot: Base Walking speed 35 ft.

Fae Magic: You know the Firebolt cantrip. When you reach 3rd level you can cast Aganazzar's Scorcher once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. When you reach 5th level you can cast Fireball once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.

Darkvision. Accustomed to twilit forests and the night sky you have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of grey.

Languages: Common and Sylvan.

[Gignere]

My suggestion is Bard either Lore or Valor can work. Bard even gets polymorph and true polymorph as in turning into a bad ass fae creature. Nab magic initiate for firebolt and burning hands. Later magical secrets for higher level fire spells. Stealth expertise. pretty much hits on everything you want. Reskin the fluff a bit instead of magic through music, make it sound more like a sorcerer.

[Herobizkit]

I dunno. Me, I'd just go with variant-of-choice Half-Elf Bladesinger, max out with fire spells and take a background that gets Stealth. While she's not a "more sneak damage" kind of 'rogue', she'll definitely make up for it with spell power.

[GorogIrongut]

The reason I suggested Deep Stalker Ranger is because, in gameplay, it's come the closest I've seen to feeling like an actual assassin. Rogue Assassins have always been underwhelming in gameplay, with every player I've seen who chose to play one, asking if they can swap it out after 5 sessions.

Combine that with the fact that it's a half caster and it meets all needs... as long as you swap out ranger spells for fire based magic.

The actual race is a little more up in the air. I like the new Fey Eladrin, but you could go Fire Genasi from Elemental Evil if you really wanted that fire born feel.

[Corinath]

I dunno. Me, I'd just go with variant-of-choice Half-Elf Bladesinger, max out with fire spells and take a background that gets Stealth. While she's not a "more sneak damage" kind of 'rogue', she'll definitely make up for it with spell power.

I admit to not knowing much of Bladesinger. LoL.


My suggestion is Bard either Lore or Valor can work. Bard even gets polymorph and true polymorph as in turning into a bad ass fae creature. Nab magic initiate for firebolt and burning hands. Later magical secrets for higher level fire spells. Stealth expertise. pretty much hits on everything you want. Reskin the fluff a bit instead of magic through music, make it sound more like a sorcerer.

I personally love Lore Bard but the challenge here is we're doing a level 1-5 module so will never reach higher levels. :(


I am not a fan of Vhuman as a concept (as it brightly outshines any other option) but I do like the customization with a 1st level feat.



Because of the afforementioned criticism I would rather not use Magic Initiate for that but rather bake it in for into the Faeborn custom race. (This way she can also select Magic Initate as her 4th level feat).



Str +1 Dex + 2 (Variant Dex+2/Cha+1)

Size is medium.

Fleet of Foot: Base Walking speed 35 ft.

Fae Magic: You know the Firebolt cantrip. When you reach 3rd level you can cast Aganazzar's Scorcher once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. When you reach 5th level you can cast Fireball once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.

Darkvision. Accustomed to twilit forests and the night sky you have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of grey.

Languages: Common and Sylvan.

This is another phenomenal suggestion. It captures dark vision, fire, slightly faster walking speed and ideal stats.

I'm curious though, and I greatly appreciate all of this, is this balanced? If I do V-human I get +2 attribute 2 cantrips 1 lvl-1 spell and a skill. If I go this route she effectively gets a level two and three fire spell (eventually), higher movement, and +3 stats with dark vision (which, while nice, I've never seen much use of, but I'm in a module now so maybe).

I don't want to undermine this though, this is another phenomenal suggestion and I know she'd go for either this or the M. Initiate route.

Baking it in is much more appealing to me, personally, as it's more a "you're born with this" and not "you discovered this" kind of thing.

Thank you! :D


If it were me doing this, instead of using ranger or sorceror, I would use the Deep Stalker Ranger. It's a half caster and is bad ass in combat. Ranger has a whole host of abilities that arguably could be considered Rogue adjacent.

All you would really need to do is rejig the spell list that a ranger gets. Swap out ranger spells for thematically appropriate (and balanced) fire based magic (and potentially rogueish magic). Remember that rangers don't get cantrips, so this would have to be part of the rejig to get access to firebolt/gfb. Or you could allow your player to use a race that gets access to the firebolt cantrip and just re 'skin' the HElf/Eladrin/etc. as a human.

I just went back and reread your post and you discussed calling her character Faeborn... That sounds a lot like the most recently released rules for Eladrin to me. So you could get firebolt without having to reskin anything. You could tweak the 'seasons' to fit within the theme your player wants... and she could have access to everything without having them all at once.

Shifting Seasons Cantrips
Autumn Friends (deffo rogue feel to this one)
Winter Chill touch (I'd swap this one out for Produce Flame)
Spring Minor illusion (Another selection that meshes well with Rogue)
Summer Fire bolt (This of course fits well with the fire theme)

So really you would only have to swap out Chill Touch for Produce Flame and your player would be set.

Deep Stalker Ranger has always looked amazing to me and, honestly, seems like the saving grace of the Ranger class which never personally appealed. Aelin is mostly a melee character however, so all of the bonus movement and hiding doesn't work quite as well on a melee chassis.

It does remain a character I'd like to play though. :)


It seems like you've got a pretty good handle on this. The only thing I would do is make sure that the players know that these rules are being used for THESE characters. Just because you let her play a Faeborn doesn't mean that they can pick that in the future. I don't think you'll have a problem with your group, but it sounds like you're using a lot of homebrew rules. So just make sure everyone is on the same page and stays on the same page.

It's good insight. Both of my sessions I started out by saying if there's a character the players really want to try and create or re-create to talk to me about it and we'll see what we can do. They know this isn't usual, but that I love the challenge of character creation if it means my players have more fun with the gameplay. :)


I forgot that there are more fire cantrips in the extra books; you've got Control Flames, Create Bonfire, and Green-Flame Blade readily available. All are good candidates, but GFB probably works best mechanically and flavor-wise.

GFB is a big stand out to me as well. I've found it doesn't do much damage in gameplay as I have an EK in my main campaign that just flat out stopped using it. Nice flavor though.

[GorogIrongut]

Deep Stalker Ranger has always looked amazing to me and, honestly, seems like the saving grace of the Ranger class which never personally appealed. Aelin is mostly a melee character however, so all of the bonus movement and hiding doesn't work quite as well on a melee chassis.

It does remain a character I'd like to play though. :)

I have a Barbarian 2/Deep Stalker 6 character that is a monster in combat. And almost all of it is because of the Deep Stalker. While it can be a ranged combatant, they are equally ridiculous in melee. Basically I went barbarian for 2 levels so I could get unarmoured defense (because it fit the character theme) and for Reckless Attack. The rest is all Deep Stalker.

[Varlon]

Though Sporeegg's race design is quite nice, if we're worried about balance (which we should be, considering there's only 3 players, including another roguey type, and our player in question has already rolled amazing stats), it might be best to not worry about homebrewing up an entire race or class for them, because that can go bad real fast. Existing material contains all the tools we need. Magic Initiate(Sorcerer) can be treated as "your sorcerer powers are in their infancy". When she wants to go full fire-beast, one level in Phoenix Sorcerer (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/26_UASorcererUA020617s.pdf) will give her a whole lot of fire, including a minute-long "true form" mode.

GFB would be for flavor unless you have two enemies next to each other, but it's an easy way to get at-will flame dagger attacks. RAW it wouldn't allow the two-weapon-fighting bonus action attack, but you can say that if GFB's secondary damage doesn't trigger, the spell counts as the Attack action for the purpose of TWF, and it won't affect anything mechanically. Or she can take Booming Blade and you can flavor it as an attack that surrounds the target in flames that burn them if they move.

To give a sense of what she gets with this, let's think of a Rogue 2/Phoenix Sorcerer 1 setup. She'll have:
-From Magic Initiate(Sorcerer): Fire Bolt, GFB/BB, free 1/day Burning Hands
-From Rogue: Expertise, Sneak Attack, Thieves' Cant, and Cunning Action
-From Sorcerer:
--Four more cantrips, like Control Flames, Create Bonfire, Dancing Lights, and Prestidigitation
--Two spells, like Chromatic Orb and Color Spray, and two spell slots. She can also use her Sorcerer slots to cast Burning Hands (see Magic Initiate section). (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.01.pdf)
--At-will ability to ignite held objects, as well as a 1/day minute-long fire phoenix mode.

That looks to me like a hell of a sneaky assassin type with the ability to bust out a whole bunch of fire for various purposes, both at-will and in bursts, all using Wizards material, and the worst you can say about it is that UA hasn't been officially balanced for multiclassing.

[Spore]

I'm curious though, and I greatly appreciate all of this, is this balanced? If I do V-human I get +2 attribute 2 cantrips 1 lvl-1 spell and a skill. If I go this route she effectively gets a level two and three fire spell (eventually), higher movement, and +3 stats with dark vision (which, while nice, I've never seen much use of, but I'm in a module now so maybe).

I don't want to undermine this though, this is another phenomenal suggestion and I know she'd go for either this or the M. Initiate route.

Baking it in is much more appealing to me, personally, as it's more a "you're born with this" and not "you discovered this" kind of thing.

Thank you! :D


Maybe? I don't know. I took Drow spells (which are more useful because conditions are usually more useful than raw damage), mixed a few standard elf features because that is what Half-Fae are basically for the terms of that novel. Some elegant supernatural human-esque race.

If you worry about overpowering, maybe cut down to +2 stats instead of +3

[Sir cryosin]

Hello everyone!

So I'm running a Lost Mines of Phandelver group right now. One of my players wants to create her character in the vein of Aelin from the Throne of Glass books. Short version, she functions like a blend of fire-magic-only sorcerer with assassin. Since LMoP only runs the first five levels, I'm trying to home-brew a class design that feels like what she's trying to accomplish so she can sort of play that the whole time.

Of course, the danger is she can't be too combat powerful, particularly since I have a sword-and-board fighter (subclass unknown) and a rogue (eventual Arcane Trickster) already in the party.

Here are some basic thoughts I've had so far. Am I balancing her properly? Or is she too powerful?

She rolled good stats for MAD, weirdly enough. Three 16s and two 14s.

Is it balanced to trade font of magic (all SP and meta magic) for Sneak Attack? I'm considering giving her the sorcerer chassie, D8 health, rogue weapon proficiency (no expertise), and limiting all of her magic to fire only spells (Burning hands, absorb elements for fire, hellish rebuke)?

Level 2 (Spells or Cunning Action)

Level 3 would be flavor with fire stuff (reskinning mage hand to become a unique on demand fire conjured weaponry that requires a bonus action to use, ultimately has no effect on DPR, but enhances her flexibility in combat on demand by not drawing or sheathing weapons)

Level 4 per usual

Level 5 (Spells or Evasion)

So, ultimately what I'm trying to figure out is this: Is allowing Sneak Attack dice and Full Casting possible if I take away huge elements of the respective classes? No expertise. No multiple skills, No sorcery points. No meta-magic. ONLY fire spells? Would I need to bump it down to half-casting?

What I don't want is to have to force her to multi-class in such a tiny module at such low levels.

I've alternatively thought about reverse-engineering the spell progression table of Arcane Trickster to go all the way back to level one and allowing her one or two level one spell slots.

Thoughts? My brain is mush.

Thank you!

Why not have her take the criminal back ground give her a weapon proficiency have her pick up green flame blade. And have her class be dragon Sorcerer. And call it a day. If she wants expertise in stealth have her go Vhuman and take the skill feat that gives expertise.

[Corinath]

Why not have her take the criminal back ground give her a weapon proficiency have her pick up green flame blade. And have her class be dragon Sorcerer. And call it a day. If she wants expertise in stealth have her go Vhuman and take the skill feat that gives expertise.

Sort of where I started was this, but it still misses a few assassin-y things. Some really good ideas have been thrown in the thread, but I definitely considered re-skinning dragon sorcerer and GFB.

Thanks!


Maybe? I don't know. I took Drow spells (which are more useful because conditions are usually more useful than raw damage), mixed a few standard elf features because that is what Half-Fae are basically for the terms of that novel. Some elegant supernatural human-esque race.

If you worry about overpowering, maybe cut down to +2 stats instead of +3

Ahhhh that's what I don't have enough experience to know. Conditions being more useful than raw damage. If that's the case then I'm way less worried about it. :D


Though Sporeegg's race design is quite nice, if we're worried about balance (which we should be, considering there's only 3 players, including another roguey type, and our player in question has already rolled amazing stats), it might be best to not worry about homebrewing up an entire race or class for them, because that can go bad real fast. Existing material contains all the tools we need. Magic Initiate(Sorcerer) can be treated as "your sorcerer powers are in their infancy". When she wants to go full fire-beast, one level in Phoenix Sorcerer (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/26_UASorcererUA020617s.pdf) will give her a whole lot of fire, including a minute-long "true form" mode.

GFB would be for flavor unless you have two enemies next to each other, but it's an easy way to get at-will flame dagger attacks. RAW it wouldn't allow the two-weapon-fighting bonus action attack, but you can say that if GFB's secondary damage doesn't trigger, the spell counts as the Attack action for the purpose of TWF, and it won't affect anything mechanically. Or she can take Booming Blade and you can flavor it as an attack that surrounds the target in flames that burn them if they move.

To give a sense of what she gets with this, let's think of a Rogue 2/Phoenix Sorcerer 1 setup. She'll have:
-From Magic Initiate(Sorcerer): Fire Bolt, GFB/BB, free 1/day Burning Hands
-From Rogue: Expertise, Sneak Attack, Thieves' Cant, and Cunning Action
-From Sorcerer:
--Four more cantrips, like Control Flames, Create Bonfire, Dancing Lights, and Prestidigitation
--Two spells, like Chromatic Orb and Color Spray, and two spell slots. She can also use her Sorcerer slots to cast Burning Hands (see Magic Initiate section). (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.01.pdf)
--At-will ability to ignite held objects, as well as a 1/day minute-long fire phoenix mode.

That looks to me like a hell of a sneaky assassin type with the ability to bust out a whole bunch of fire for various purposes, both at-will and in bursts, all using Wizards material, and the worst you can say about it is that UA hasn't been officially balanced for multiclassing.

Oooo I don't know phoenix sorcerer at all. Haven't seen the handbook with that. I'll look into that one! Having a "supermode" is kinda neat. :D

As for the stats bit I'm not worried there. She rolled amazing stats for MAD, but two of the other four characters have 18s in their primaries and the other character has a couple 16. The last player hasn't created a character yet.

[8wGremlin]

There is also the pyromancer Sorcerer from the Planeshift stuff
https://media.wizards.com/2017/downloads/magic/Plane-Shift_Kaladesh.pdf


It's not great but worth a look.




Sorcerous Origin: Pyromancer
Your innate magic manifests in fire. You are your fire, and yourfire is you.

Heart of Fire
At 1st level, whenever you start casting a spell of 1st level orhigher that deals fire damage, fiery magic erupts from you. Thiseruption causes creatures of your choice that you can see within10 feet of you to take fire damage equal to half your sorcerer level(minimum of 1).

Fire in the Veins
At 6th level, you gain resistance to fire damage. In addition, spellsyou cast ignore resistance to fire damage.

Pyromancer’s Fury
Starting at 14th level, when you are hit by a melee attack, you canuse your reaction to deal fire damage to the attacker. The damageequals your sorcerer level, and ignores resistance to fire damage.

Fiery Soul
At 18th level, you gain immunity to fire damage. In addition, anyspell or effect you create ignores resistance to fire damage andtreats immunity to fire damage as resistance to fire damage.


also there is Warlock of the Undying light...
https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/02_UA_Underdark_Characters.pdf

it has


Radiant Soul
Starting at 1st level, your link to the Positive Planeallows you to serve as a conduit for radiant energy. You have resistance to radiant damage, and when you cast a spell that deals radiant damage or fire damage, you add your Charisma modifier to that damage. Additionally, you know the sacred flameand light cantrips and can cast them at will. They don’t count against your number of cantrips known.

Undying Light Expanded Spells
1st burning hands
2nd flaming sphere
3rd daylight
4th fire shield
5th flame strike

[Spore]

Ahhhh that's what I don't have enough experience to know. Conditions being more useful than raw damage. If that's the case then I'm way less worried about it. :D

I mean a fireball is a very blunt way of reacting to a problem. A darkness spell would allow a Drow Rogue to infiltrate a camp much more easily and retrieve information. A Scorcher spell kills something (or worse, just injures and make them angry) but raises high alert. It pushes the character towards combat. Which is maybe not even something you want to do in any situation.