Killing the Gith Lich queen and uniting the race.... Ambitious, so help me

[Dankus Memakus]

So, I have a party right now, and two of them are fellow gith, however they are githzerai (One arcana cleric, one zealot barbarian/oath of the crown paladin), I am a githyanki undying bladelock, now originally we saw this as a huge problem but through time we have decided we are trying to unite the race, and a goal became apparent, I must kill the lich queen and usurp her throne. Right now I have her trust so we plan to use that against her. Our goal is to get the barbarian to reach level 14 in barb so he can rage beyond death which is probably gonna be an important ability against the lich queen since i assume she will be quite powerful. (We do have permission from the DM to "attempt this") now the other two party members will most likely help but i doubt they will fight her to the death so my plan revolves around the three gith. What spells should we take, what items do we need, and how should we go about this? Also IF we win (huge if) once I take control of the yanki how should i go about uniting the race. I was LE but now am LN so Zerai should get along with me if they can put aside their racism, plus my two closest allies are Zerai so i hope that helps me out. Please help me at least die with dignity.

Edit: I know we will need to rally an army against Vlaakith so we can kill her without thousands of gith murdering us

[Naanomi]

I... wouldn't be planning direct combat. She has an unstoppable army between her and you. I would start by finding a way to turn some of her followers against her, maybe by freeing Gith from Tiamat or claiming her original blade... or get an army of your own, anti-Tiamat dragon army? Deal-with-the-devil illithid nautilus fleet?

Of course you could just find a way to awaken "the one in the void" somehow and it should resolve itself

[Dankus Memakus]

"the one in the void"

who is this please enlighten me

Edit: I'm wary of freeing gith, she is quite awesome but i'm worried she will ruin the whole uniting bit of the race and id rather not murder her which is what may have to happen if she attempts to wipe out my githzerai allies. I could totally forge a pact with some good dragons if i need to though and have an anti tiamat army

[King539]

True Resurrection on Zerthimon?

[Dankus Memakus]

True Resurrection on Zerthimon?

We aren't sure if Zerithimon is dead are we?

[Naanomi]

Vlaakith CLVII never leaves Castle Susurrus on the githyanki capital Tu'narath. That city is built on the body of a long dead God, about who little is known; called 'The One in the Void'. Of course, in DnD cosmology; dead Gods don't stay that way... and waking up with a city on your face and a pretentious Lich in that city isn't going to make any freshly awakened God happy

[Dankus Memakus]

Vlaakith CLVII never leaves Castle Susurrus on the githyanki capital Tu'narath. That city is built on the body of a long dead God, about who little is known; called 'The One in the Void'. Of course, in DnD cosmology; dead Gods don't stay that way... and waking up with a city on your face and a pretentious Lich in that city isn't going to make any freshly awakened God happy

Do we know the alignment of said god? I'd rather not awaken an ancient evil

[Naanomi]

Do we know the alignment of said god? I'd rather not awaken an ancient evil
Nope nothing at all. A risky move to be sure... but one more evil God in the universe (there are lots) in exchange for destroying a singular ongoing evil? Maybe worth it... the illithid would sure think so if someone asked them, I would guess they are somehow behind your plans even if you don't know it

[Dankus Memakus]

Nope nothing at all. A risky move to be sure... but one more evil God in the universe (there are lots) in exchange for destroying a singular ongoing evil? Maybe worth it... the illithid would sure think so if someone asked them, I would guess they are somehow behind your plans even if you don't know it

Im unsure of the effectiveness of this plan, but no other plans seem equally terrible

[gloryblaze]

In 4e (I think it was 4e), Vlaakith was destroyed by a group of adventurers with help from the general of her army, Zetch'r'r. Maybe an equivalent character exists in your campaign and you could start a military coup?

EDIT: It originally happened in 3/3.5, in the adventure The Lich Queen's Beloved, written by good ol' Chris Perkins for Dungeon Magazine #100. The Lich Queen's death became a major plot point in the Scales of War campaign serialized in Dungeon for 4e, and Zetch'r'r - the warlord who helped the party in tLQB - is a major anatagonist in that campaign "the heavy" or "the dragon" or the "disc one final boss", if you use TV Tropes.

If you're able, I'd definitely encourage taking a look at tLQB and the Scales of War adventure "Tyranny of Souls", or else recommending that your DM look at them for inspiration on how to run Tu'narath and the Lich Queen

EDIT EDIT: and particularly of note from tLQB is the faction known as the Sha'sal Khou, which consists of both githyanki and githzerai who secretly seek the reunification of the gith race, subtly influencing their respective peoples to not attack each other, etc. Zetch'r'r is their leader. If the Sha'sal Khou exist in your campaign world, they'd be powerful allies.

[Unoriginal]

Killing a lich for good is hard.

Stopping a god is hard.

Killing a god in their own turf is not something mortals can do.

The Lich Queen had eons to think every plan you could come up with, and eons to prepare against them. She has loyal armies of Giths, and can easily have access to more even goons.

And even imagining you manage to kill her... then what?

Do you think the Githyanki will thank you for killing the one who shaped their society and who kept other god-level threats away?

Do you think the Githyanki will *want* to be united with the Githzerai again? Do you think the Githzerai will *want* to be united with the Githyanki?

I'm not saying all this to bash your character's ambition, but he needs to solve all those problems before even beginning to move against the Lich.

[Dankus Memakus]

Killing a lich for good is hard.

Stopping a god is hard.

Killing a god in their own turf is not something mortals can do.

The Lich Queen had eons to think every plan you could come up with, and eons to prepare against them. She has loyal armies of Giths, and can easily have access to more even goons.

And even imagining you manage to kill her... then what?

Do you think the Githyanki will thank you for killing the one who shaped their society and who kept other god-level threats away?

Do you think the Githyanki will *want* to be united with the Githzerai again? Do you think the Githzerai will *want* to be united with the Githyanki?

I'm not saying all this to bash your character's ambition, but he needs to solve all those problems before even beginning to move against the Lich.
The githzerai are sensible, I think they can be convinced. Githyanki follow strength, if they don't follow me we destroy those loyal to the queen, not all are there are many renegades. And if Zerthimon IS dead, my cleric brings him back and the githzerai are indebted to me, there are ways, I just gotta figure it out, which is why I posted this, however the god COULD be good or evil so that may not be a bad idea

[Keltest]

Killing a lich for good is hard.

Stopping a god is hard.

Killing a god in their own turf is not something mortals can do.

The Lich Queen had eons to think every plan you could come up with, and eons to prepare against them. She has loyal armies of Giths, and can easily have access to more even goons.

And even imagining you manage to kill her... then what?

Do you think the Githyanki will thank you for killing the one who shaped their society and who kept other god-level threats away?

Do you think the Githyanki will *want* to be united with the Githzerai again? Do you think the Githzerai will *want* to be united with the Githyanki?

I'm not saying all this to bash your character's ambition, but he needs to solve all those problems before even beginning to move against the Lich.

Yeah, I think these are going to be the bigger problems, honestly. You have how many years of cultural animosity to overcome to reunite the two peoples? The Lich Queen is, if anything, the easiest problem to solve here.

[Dankus Memakus]

Yeah, I think these are going to be the bigger problems, honestly. You have how many years of cultural animosity to overcome to reunite the two peoples? The Lich Queen is, if anything, the easiest problem to solve here.
I really think the githyanki are the issue, plus many will die if we succeed. How many will continue the fight? I think it can be done. There are gith who support unification

[Keltest]

I really think the githyanki are the issue, plus many will die if we succeed. How many will continue the fight? I think it can be done. There are gith who support unification

honestly? most of them, probably. You just came in and murdered their leader. Do you expect them to take that lying down?

[Unoriginal]

The githzerai are sensible, I think they can be convinced. Githyanki follow strength, if they don't follow me we destroy those loyal to the queen, not all are there are many renegades. And if Zerthimon IS dead, my cleric brings him back and the githzerai are indebted to me, there are ways, I just gotta figure it out, which is why I posted this, however the god COULD be good or evil so that may not be a bad idea

What makes you think Githzerai are sensible? What would they gain for joining up with a people they hate intensely?

As for killing all the Githyanki loyal to the Queen, you'd already be near genocide range.

And what makes you think Zerthimon would want to come back, or is even able to be brought back to life? And why would the modern Githyanki favots him over the Lich Queen.

As to for awakening the dead god... well, you'll destroy the whole city if you do that, unless if the god is both extremely benevolent and willing to be careful around the very malevolent Githyanki.



I really think the githyanki are the issue, plus many will die if we succeed. How many will continue the fight? I think it can be done. There are gith who support unification

Why do they support unification?

Also, once again, I think you're kind of a bit nonchalant about fighting a god-level being who has a phylactery hidden somewhere and who had a finger in every aspect of the Githyanki's society since the beginning.


honestly? most of them, probably. You just came in and murdered their leader. Do you expect them to take that lying down?

Even those who aren't loyal will want a shot at taking over.

[Naanomi]

My biggest worry would be how the illithid would take advantage... mid-civil war, you *don't* need a thousand nautilus ships pulling up

[Unoriginal]

My biggest worry would be how the illithid would take advantage... mid-civil war, you *don't* need a thousand nautilus ships pulling up

Not only them, but anyone who can influence the Astral Plane at all.

[Kane0]

Githyanki control a big bundle of red dragons, so you'll want something to fight them. Perhaps Atral Stalkers or Ethereal Marauders?

The lich queen kills off anyone who gets remotely powerful enough to threaten her, so you'll need a way to hide your power level.

You will want to gather an alliance of other notable figures within Githyanki sociery to back you and your attempted coup. Not only to be able to do it in the first place, but to stabilize things should you be successful.

As a lich the queen probably has multiple contingencies in the event of an assault that successfully reaches her. You might actually have better chances sealing her away in something like a Mirror of Life Trapping or an Iron Flask (though that specifically won't work since it's limited to creatures not native to the plane it is used on) so she can't just use her phylactery to come back twice as mad and three times as dangerous. Imprisonment might also work, though you'll need to bypass legendary resistance most likely.

[MinotaurWarrior]

What are the non-gith's classes? I have a plan, but it requires either a wizard or another cleric.

1) Turn yourself in for Vlaakith CLVII to eat your soul.

2) Dispel the true polymorph spell you had cast on the wizard or extra cleric, transforming them back from an earring into a person.

3) They cast antimagic field in Vlaakith's presence.

4) On another plane, your cleric uses Divine intervention to have their god cast Gate targeting Vlaakith. The antimagic field gets rid of any wards, but Gods are explicitly allowed to have their magic ignore AMF's.

5) Either the God takes care of Vlaakith, or you beat her in a trap, depending on whether the other side of the Gate is in the divine realm, or where your Cleric was located. A trap should include, at bare minimum, another antimagic field.

Now, this plan is pretty suicidal, but then again, so is the whole concept.

[Dankus Memakus]

What are the non-gith's classes? I have a plan, but it requires either a wizard or another cleric.

1) Turn yourself in for Vlaakith CLVII to eat your soul.

2) Dispel the true polymorph spell you had cast on the wizard or extra cleric, transforming them back from an earring into a person.

3) They cast antimagic field in Vlaakith's presence.

4) On another plane, your cleric uses Divine intervention to have their god cast Gate targeting Vlaakith. The antimagic field gets rid of any wards, but Gods are explicitly allowed to have their magic ignore AMF's.

5) Either the God takes care of Vlaakith, or you beat her in a trap, depending on whether the other side of the Gate is in the divine realm, or where your Cleric was located. A trap should include, at bare minimum, another antimagic field.

Now, this plan is pretty suicidal, but then again, so is the whole concept.

This is genius

[Unoriginal]

What are the non-gith's classes? I have a plan, but it requires either a wizard or another cleric.

1) Turn yourself in for Vlaakith CLVII to eat your soul.

2) Dispel the true polymorph spell you had cast on the wizard or extra cleric, transforming them back from an earring into a person.

3) They cast antimagic field in Vlaakith's presence.

4) On another plane, your cleric uses Divine intervention to have their god cast Gate targeting Vlaakith. The antimagic field gets rid of any wards, but Gods are explicitly allowed to have their magic ignore AMF's.

5) Either the God takes care of Vlaakith, or you beat her in a trap, depending on whether the other side of the Gate is in the divine realm, or where your Cleric was located. A trap should include, at bare minimum, another antimagic field.

Now, this plan is pretty suicidal, but then again, so is the whole concept.


This is genius


You forgot the little detail that it is not possible to open a Gate in the presence of a planar ruler or god unless they wish so.

And this plan relies on Vlaakith not seeing an attack like that coming, and on her just standing there while your friends do their shows. And on her being helpless even in an antimagic field

Then there is the issue of things like her phylactery

[Naanomi]

Do remember she is continually guarded by the reanimated bodies of all the high level githyanki she's killed... all the heroes of the race.. who retain their class abilities

[dejarnjc]

You forgot the little detail that it is not possible to open a Gate in the presence of a planar ruler or god unless they wish so.

And this plan relies on Vlaakith not seeing an attack like that coming, and on her just standing there while your friends do their shows. And on her being helpless even in an antimagic field

Then there is the issue of things like her phylactery

I don't think she's a planar ruler.

[Naanomi]

Not only them, but anyone who can influence the Astral Plane at all.
Who are you thinking? The place is pretty barren... a lot of action might attract a spare celestial or fiend; and if you make too much of a mess a dreadnought might come... but everything else in the astral is pretty remote or wouldn't care

I don't think she's a planar ruler.
She is not, that is referencing Demon Princes, Archomentals, and other 'plane sanctioned' rulers... not squatters on the astral, no matter how powerful

[Dankus Memakus]

Who are you thinking? The place is pretty barren... a lot of action might attract a spare celestial or fiend; and if you make too much of a mess a dreadnought might come... but everything else in the astral is pretty remote or wouldn't care

She is not, that is referencing Demon Princes, Archomentals, and other 'plane sanctioned' rulers... not squatters on the astral, no matter how powerful

I am gonna agree and just say shes a squatter, and for all of you who claim this is impossible always remember, that which has hitpoints can be killed.

[MinotaurWarrior]

You forgot the little detail that it is not possible to open a Gate in the presence of a planar ruler or god unless they wish so.

As others have pointed out, we know who the local planar ruler / God is, and he is dead.


And this plan relies on Vlaakith not seeing an attack like that coming, and on her just standing there while your friends do their shows. And on her being helpless even in an antimagic field

Then there is the issue of things like her phylactery

So, there are two helpful things you brought up: the phylactery, and artifacts.

The lich queen has an artifact that traditionally allows her to control red dragons in a huge radius. This will still work in an AMF. So you need to be prepared to also fight a large number of dragons. If the gate leads to the God, that shouldn't be a problem (unless you are a Tiamat worshipper), but on any other plane, be prepared to fight an arbitrarily large number of ancient red dragons. I don't actually think it's that hard (you should be taking a ton of time, upwards of a year, to prepare your trap), but you definitely don't want to get blindsided.

After killing her, we have, AFAIK, no info on the phylactery. So, either you need to defeat her nonlethally (e.g. True polymorph again) or you have 1-10 days to act before she returns.


Do remember she is continually guarded by the reanimated bodies of all the high level githyanki she's killed... all the heroes of the race.. who retain their class abilities

Yes. It is, at best, suicidal to attempt this. It's also possible that one of those reanimated gith can use her soul-devouring artifact on you without her present. I might seriously consider suicide in the hopes of later resurrection.

[Unoriginal]

Who are you thinking? The place is pretty barren... a lot of action might attract a spare celestial or fiend; and if you make too much of a mess a dreadnought might come... but everything else in the astral is pretty remote or wouldn't care

We're talking about the Githyanki capital and main center of power. If an uprising starts, plenty of Demon Lords, Archdevils and other powerful beings will all want to send minions to influence the issue in a way or another, in order to benefit from the situation.




She is not, that is referencing Demon Princes, Archomentals, and other 'plane sanctioned' rulers... not squatters on the astral, no matter how powerful

Isn't she a goddess? I think she was in at least one other edition...





So, there are two helpful things you brought up: the phylactery, and artifacts.


Other thing I've brought up that was ignored: how would the Lich not see it coming?

She is very smart, and centuries of practice doing that kind of things. She has had to deal with hundreds of rebellious spellcasters in the past, she probably has already seen dozens of variation on "shapeshifted allies appearing and casting anti-magic spells".

Now, if you want to only kill Vlaakith, setting aside the unification goal for now, you need to outsmart a schemer who has spent eons coming up with ways how others would try to kill her.

Personally, I would say that what you'd need to do is to disrupt something that is important for her power so much she *needs* to intervene in person. For exemple, manage to make the red dragons the Githyanki are allied to be targeted by other dragons, or opening a big magic portal near the city that lead to a plane filled with enemies of the Lich Queen, and then hit her with everything you got once she exhausted her reserves.

[MinotaurWarrior]

We're talking about the Githyanki capital and main center of power. If an uprising starts, plenty of Demon Lords, Archdevils and other powerful beings will all want to send minions to influence the issue in a way or another, in order to benefit from the situation.


It's unclear if they'd be able to. There's no divine / archdevil exception to effects like Mordenkeinan's Private Sanctum.




Isn't she a goddess? I think she was in at least one other edition...

No. She's just an (epic-level) lich. You might be confused because she could act as a warlock patron.


Other thing I've brought up that was ignored: how would the Lich not see it coming?

I passed over it because it wasn't actionable. You didn't propose anything she might have done in preparation for this line of attack. If you do have any such ideas, please post them, and people can think of how to overcome those countermeasures.


She is very smart, and centuries of practice doing that kind of things. She has had to deal with hundreds of rebellious spellcasters in the past, she probably has already seen dozens of variation on "shapeshifted allies appearing and casting anti-magic spells".

1) I doubt hundreds of people over her 1-2k years have turned themselves in to be devoured, and then turned on her.

2) Atheism. Loyal gith eligible for soul devouring are all atheists, and her biggest enemies (Illithid, Githzerai) are all faithless as well. They couldn't get a God to cast gate into an AMF.


Now, if you want to only kill Vlaakith, setting aside the unification goal for now, you need to outsmart a schemer who has spent eons coming up with ways how others would try to kill her.

Personally, I would say that what you'd need to do is to disrupt something that is important for her power so much she *needs* to intervene in person. For exemple, manage to make the red dragons the Githyanki are allied to be targeted by other dragons, or opening a big magic portal near the city that lead to a plane filled with enemies of the Lich Queen, and then hit her with everything you got once she exhausted her reserves.

Problems:

1) You're basically saying "Be more threatening than the entire Illithid and Githzerai races" which strikes me as implausible.

2) It's uncontrollable. You don't actually know how she's going to react, so you can't lead her into a vulnerable position.

3) "Innocent" Gith casualties.

[Naanomi]

If you can get to her without getting destroyed first... maybe rupture a bag of holding to draw an astral dreadnaught? Their anti-magic abilities would make short work of most of her personal defenses; leaving 'only' dragons to deal with?

[Richard369]

Not on topic but, I'm running a Githyanki Incursion campaign and my players are about to make a direct move against Vlaakith. They completely dodged the unite the race/help the Githzerai route and did a deal with the archdevil Dispater instead, to use Gith herself to usurp Vlaakith. Pretty crazy.

[Richard369]

Also, during the course of my own research, The One in the Void is considered a good aligned deity. Which should provide quite the ally to your cause should you decide to take the route of awakening that god. Though how you'd do that is another thread altogether.

[Naanomi]

Also, during the course of my own research, The One in the Void is considered a good aligned deity. Which should provide quite the ally to your cause should you decide to take the route of awakening that god. Though how you'd do that is another thread altogether.
What is the source on that? I've never seen anything that doesn't paint the nature of the dead god as anything but a mystery

[Pex]

Maybe the dead god is Zerthimon, killed just before or at the moment of ascension.

[Naanomi]

Maybe the dead god is Zerthimon, killed just before or at the moment of ascension.
No, it is ancient; a body around so long that no one knows its name anymore. Guide to the Astral Plane says it at least predates the Egyptian Pantheon's existence (or at least... predates Anubis' charge to protect the bodies of dead Gods from exploitation)

[Richard369]

What is the source on that? I've never seen anything that doesn't paint the nature of the dead god as anything but a mystery

It's in the Incursion campaign segment in Dungeon magazine. Page 126 at The Heard of the Dead God. "the One in the Void was once a powerful good-aligned Deity..."

https://annarchive.com/files/Dungeon%20Magazine%20%23100.pdf

[Pex]

No, it is ancient; a body around so long that no one knows its name anymore. Guide to the Astral Plane says it at least predates the Egyptian Pantheon's existence (or at least... predates Anubis' charge to protect the bodies of dead Gods from exploitation)

Or it's Zerthimon in this game world. One need not be beholden to flavor text.

The god is not dead. The purpose of the city is to hide the means for which the Lich Queen keeps him asleep to retain her power. Perhaps the goal would be to wake him up instead of facing the Lich Queen directly. The Gith unite as one in worship to their new god Zerthimon.

[Naanomi]

It's in the Incursion campaign segment in Dungeon magazine. Page 126 at The Heard of the Dead God. "the One in the Void was once a powerful good-aligned Deity..."

https://annarchive.com/files/Dungeon%20Magazine%20%23100.pdf
Good find.

So she is a very old Good deity, probably a greater God, who likely died from lack of worship. She is roughly humanoid (with a long body, six arms, and a crown)

[Richard369]

Good find.

So she is a very old Good deity, probably a greater God, who likely died from lack of worship. She is roughly humanoid (with a long body, six arms, and a crown)

Right!?! As I said, quite the ally if you can raise the god.