LGBTAI+ #59: Will You Take This Woman To Be Your Galpal?

[Eldest]

Solution: Stay on E. Dress masculine when visiting your parents. Take pictures away when you find them. Visit OFTEN.
One of the things that happens a lot is change blindness. As long as they don't see any big differences, they will not notice any changes because their memory will just retroactively update. Tell them you are growing your hair out for some fashion reason that makes sense, don't give them any reason to look at pictures from the last few years, and they might be totally unaware that you are on estrogen even if you hit DDD cups, laser off your body hair, voice train into the extreme high end of the androgynous range (higher than most girls need by the way) and 100% passing features.

This does not always work. I did this with my parents, it lasted all of half a year.

[AuthorGirl]

Not directly related to LGBT stuff, but here's a series of poems I've written over the past decade of so - the latest one I wrote this morning, thus why I'm posting them now. I think it's quite an interesting insight into how my personality has developed, and my journey from being a White Knight.


I want to take it all away
To roll it up and say it'll all be fine
I want to save you from the world
The insults that are hurled and hurt you deep
I want to hug you close to me
And say no matter what you see you'll come out on top

My instincts scream protection
My morals say I must
A friend that's sunk in torment needs my help
But I'm too far away
I do not have the right
To help in every way I think I could

So I'm standing on the sidelines
Staring at your pain
Knowing that there's little I can do
Please, won't you let me in?
It hurts to see you so
But I will not - cannot - move unless you ask.


I live my life
I see your life
The pain you find each day
I reach to help
But pull away
I know not what to say

You hurt, I know
I see the scars
Inflicted day by day
I want to be
Your mail, your shield
And save you from harm's way

But I'm not there
It's not for me
To be your guarding knight
With all my heart
I wish to help
I simply have no right

Deep in your heart
I cannot go
A new friend lately met
Your private pain
I should not know
I cannot lift it yet

And so I stand
And helplessly
I watch you there, wishing
That I was closer
But for now
I'm outside, looking in.


Feeling helpless
Watching, hearing
The bitter flow of tears.
You are my friend
I feel your pain
But I'm too far away.

These things in life
Are yours to bear
But not to bear alone.
Please, let us in
So we can help
And stand with you 'gainst pain.

Your friends all stand
Arrayed around
To help, to hear, to hold.
Those bitter tears
Of broken heart
We long to wash away.

You're not alone
You're never lost
We stand, and will remain
So let us listen
Let us help
In any way we may.


I see you cry and I react
I charge to save the day
A white knight on a noble steed
To bear the pain away

Such arrogance! to think that I
Could shoulder all your cares
And such insensitivity to try
I am no knight
And you are not a damsel in distress
Though well-meant, I strip you of yourself.

You are not broken, I no smith -
And yet I only see the flaws.
What makes me think I have the right
To dare to try and fix you?
Defining you by nothing but your scars

You are a person, first and last
An equal, and my friend
I see at last how I have done you wrong.
I saw your tears, and saw no more
I graciously deigned to help
My actions said no equal, but a child.

I did not treat you as a person
Did not let you stand yourself
I needed you to need me, so I "helped".
I see it now, that I was wrong
And yet, I don't know how to change
Please, help me be a friend, and not a knight?


Sometimes things don’t work out
Sometimes it’s no-one’s fault
Sometimes things just fall apart
Sometimes the support that someone needs
Isn’t the support I want to give
Sometimes what they need is a friend
Not a rescuer, not a lover
When I want to help, I need to stop and ask
“Am I doing this for them, or for me?”
If I help with any thought of reward, it’s no help
If I help in the hope they will love me for it, it’s no help
If I care for them, if I want to help, I must help in the way that they need
Let my only reward be that they are happier

It’s okay to not be able to help
I must care for myself as well
Sometimes the wounds are too raw
Sometimes I cannot be what is needed
But if I want to help then I must be honest
Am I dressing their wounds, or my own?
Because the two are not the same
And I cannot do both at once
Let my help be selfless, or none.

Suffice it to say that I have much the same problem with chivalry.


Tell me a shadow of what’s wrong
So little weighs so heavily
I don’t know what to say to you
Dispel these dragons I can’t see
Tell me a little more
Lean all your weight on me

Your poems are deeply appreciated and probably helpful to me :smallsmile: thank you very much for sharing! This stuff is valuable!

[Boggartbae]

Oh cool! A thread with cool people in it! This is the best!

Those poems made me cry; I empathised with some of them way too much. Good job!

Please don't compare trans women to old male rockstars. I know I don't pass like at all, but when you insist on comparing me to a man, even after I ask you to stop, you're just being mean and unsupportive.

Also, the opinions of queer people on the bigotry we face will always matter more than those of straight and cis people. And, why are you even trying to defend a movie that came out 20 years ago, especially since I said it was really good except for the transphobia? Like why is it so important to you?

Why can't y'all just learn to listen and respect what I have to say about trans issues?

[Sobol]

A cute and funny text game about ghost investigation in a high school setting - "Known Unknowns" by Brendan Patrick Hennessy:
http://known.zone/
The protagonist, Nadia, is a bisexual girl. But the real star of the show is her non-binary best friend Kaz.

[Ravens_cry]

Tend to enjoy naturally occurring pesticides as seasoning.
Or as mild (or not so mild) psychoactive agents. Like caffeine.

[The Extinguisher]

Solution: Stay on E. Dress masculine when visiting your parents. Take pictures away when you find them. Visit OFTEN.
One of the things that happens a lot is change blindness. As long as they don't see any big differences, they will not notice any changes because their memory will just retroactively update. Tell them you are growing your hair out for some fashion reason that makes sense, don't give them any reason to look at pictures from the last few years, and they might be totally unaware that you are on estrogen even if you hit DDD cups, laser off your body hair, voice train into the extreme high end of the androgynous range (higher than most girls need by the way) and 100% passing features.

Hopefully this is the case. While I'm pretty sure my parents are going to take it well, you never know with these things, and since I'm living with them right now, that could go real bad.

[Dire Moose]

AAAAARRRRGGGHH!!!

I've been at this genderfluid thing for almost 2 months now and it's going nowhere. I feel like I'm going in circles.

I can't stay male because I want to be female. I can't transition to female because I'll miss being male. Both male and female aspects of me are completely legitimate, and to lose either one would be losing part of myself. I can't be both because that just makes me a guy who dresses as and pretends to be a girl, and not actually a girl, and I want to really be a girl. I can't be neither, because that prevents me from being either male or female. What am I supposed to do?

[Eldest]

AAAAARRRRGGGHH!!!

I've been at this genderfluid thing for almost 2 months now and it's going nowhere. I feel like I'm going in circles.

I can't stay male because I want to be female. I can't transition to female because I'll miss being male. Both male and female aspects of me are completely legitimate, and to lose either one would be losing part of myself. I can't be both because that just makes me a guy who dresses as and pretends to be a girl, and not actually a girl, and I want to really be a girl. I can't be neither, because that prevents me from being either male or female. What am I supposed to do?

What would you miss about being a guy? That might help you determine the problem.

[Dire Moose]

What would you miss about being a guy? That might help you determine the problem.

This is exactly the kind of response I didn't need. When I say I can't be either one without missing the other, why zero in on trying to help me be female and leave being male behind? Why not the opposite or one of the other in between options? Unless it's generally assumed that being neutral or both is inevitably one step on the journey toward a complete transition.

Please explain why you jumped on Option #2 while dismissing everything else.

[Razade]

This is exactly the kind of response I didn't need. When I say I can't be either one without missing the other, why zero in on trying to help me be female and leave being male behind? Why not the opposite or one of the other in between options? Unless it's generally assumed that being neutral or both is inevitably one step on the journey toward a complete transition.

Please explain why you jumped on Option #2 while dismissing everything else.


AAAAARRRRGGGHH!!!

I've been at this genderfluid thing for almost 2 months now and it's going nowhere. I feel like I'm going in circles.

I can't stay male because I want to be female. I can't transition to female because I'll miss being male. Both male and female aspects of me are completely legitimate, and to lose either one would be losing part of myself. I can't be both because that just makes me a guy who dresses as and pretends to be a girl, and not actually a girl, and I want to really be a girl. I can't be neither, because that prevents me from being either male or female. What am I supposed to do?

Call me crazy but I imagine it was the bolded.

Normally when people ask for help and advice, people try to offer it. Leaping at them for asking questions of you that you invited isn't helpful, is it? Especially when you put words in people's mouths. Eldest at no point dismissed anything you said, at no point said he was trying to help you be female. Heck, at no point did he even use a female word.

You said you'd miss being a male and all Eldest did was ask you what about being male would you miss.

[Icewraith]

This is exactly the kind of response I didn't need. When I say I can't be either one without missing the other, why zero in on trying to help me be female and leave being male behind? Why not the opposite or one of the other in between options? Unless it's generally assumed that being neutral or both is inevitably one step on the journey toward a complete transition.

Please explain why you jumped on Option #2 while dismissing everything else.

I don't know about Eldest, but if I were capable of psychically pulling your thoughts out of your head and sorting them out for you at a distance, I would be considerably wealthier than I am at the moment.

You're going to have to give us some more information.

What do you mean when you say you'll miss being male? You say you want to be female, you've taken steps to achieve that outcome, but you say you'll miss being male. What is it about the male experience that will you miss? What is different/better about being female?

Also, what is your (and only your, other people are probably going to disagree with some aspect of your answer but we're talking about the inside of your skull, not theirs) definition of "really being a girl" instead of a "guy who dresses as and pretends to be a girl"?

[Dire Moose]

I'm sorry to get defensive. I'll post more soon. In short though, the question was on how to live when I have both male and female sides that need to be expressed. and I made a knee jerk reaction to Eldest's statement where I assumed they wanted me to find ways to keep my male aspects around while otherwise going female. Apologies for making assumptions.

[Sajiri]

Hello! I'm new to these threads. I have no dire issues relating to my gender or sexuality right now but of late, Ive been on some medication and seeing a psychiatrist and psychologist for certain other mental health issues I have, and it's had me thinking about and questioning things in my life. Specifically how to deal with my family. I consider myself bisexual but if I want to be technical maybe its better to describe myself as bi-romantic, demisexual. I'm a woman married to a man, so nobody in my family really gives me a hard time about that (other than the fact he is foreign so sometimes I have to put up with some real racist jerks), but its more the fact that its a side of me that they have completely refused to even acknowledge through my life.

I've never made any attempt to hide my sexuality, but I've never been particularly open about it either. If someone asked me I would tell them. My parents have always spoken of how they are open and accepting and it doesnt matter if someone is gay, but they had always been avoidant of acknowledging it with me. There was a time when I lived with them, where I was discussing through MSN with a friend who had realised she was attracted to other women and admitted to her my own bisexuality, left the room to get a drink and came back to see my dad reading the conversation on my computer screen then grounded me from the computer without ever actually giving me a reason why. I've had girlfriends, and the parents have just completely refused to acknowledge it, and would instead make (often insulting) comments about me being a shut in because I didnt have boyfriends and wanting to date anime characters (1. Dont know where they got the anime thing from since I'd lost interest in that several years earlier and 2. Of course I had boyfriends I just didnt tell them about it because they got weird about that in other ways).

My own female best friend, who I was never actually involved with or attracted to but I would behave very affectionate with, they would never let me be alone with her in a room with a door shut. Heck, at one point they went so far as to install glass doors in a lot of the rooms to 'see what the kids are doing.' I was never outwardly told that I was wrong or anything like that, but the implication was there without anyone ever discussing it with me. These days, I just dont discuss it with anyone, and it took several years to even admit it to my husband (he was shocked at first but was completely accepting after the surprise wore off).

Im not really sure what Im getting at or looking for here. Just with the therapy I've been having lately its had me dwelling on some things from my younger years that bothers me. Despite never being outwardly abused over it, it does feel like I've been shunned and ignore for my sexuality. A part of me wants to sit down and discuss it with my parents, but I feel like if I do actually confront them with it Im not going to like the response I finally get.

[Lissou]

That's tough! Maybe you can transition towards female up to a point where you are androgynous enough that you can switch more comfortably from one to the other?

[Heliomance]

Oh cool! A thread with cool people in it! This is the best!

Those poems made me cry; I empathised with some of them way too much. Good job!

Thanks! I think? Is making you cry good? Which ones did you particularly empathise with?

[Eldest]

This is exactly the kind of response I didn't need. When I say I can't be either one without missing the other, why zero in on trying to help me be female and leave being male behind? Why not the opposite or one of the other in between options? Unless it's generally assumed that being neutral or both is inevitably one step on the journey toward a complete transition.

Please explain why you jumped on Option #2 while dismissing everything else.

The only reason I asked what I did was because, from my limited insight, it appeared you were invested more in being a girl with certain things you like about being a guy. I went through a short genderfluid phase before figuring out I was a transwoman, and the question was intended to cross that possibility off the list, by finding out how you were /not/ like me.


Eldest at no point dismissed anything you said, at no point said he was trying to help you be female. Heck, at no point did he even use a female word.

Really, really not a he, friend.

[JusticeZero]

I've been at this genderfluid thing for almost 2 months now and it's going nowhere. I feel like I'm going in circles.

For me, I had to race full tilt for the end of the spectrum that I didn't have experience with for awhile before I could get a perspective on where I really was. So my advice - because it's what I had to do - would be to dive into transitioning with both feet FOR NOW, and then after a while of that, use that perspective to better figure out where you SHOULD be. It's okay to backtrack to where you belong.

[Lycunadari]

AAAAARRRRGGGHH!!!

I've been at this genderfluid thing for almost 2 months now and it's going nowhere. I feel like I'm going in circles.

I can't stay male because I want to be female. I can't transition to female because I'll miss being male. Both male and female aspects of me are completely legitimate, and to lose either one would be losing part of myself. I can't be both because that just makes me a guy who dresses as and pretends to be a girl, and not actually a girl, and I want to really be a girl. I can't be neither, because that prevents me from being either male or female. What am I supposed to do?

I feel you. That's one of the downsides of being genderfluid and something I've struggled with on and off since I realised I'm genderfluid five years ago.
Some things that might help you decide what to do:

1)Know that no matter whether you decide to transition or not doesn't make you any more or less of your gender. You are still a guy on your guy days if you go on HRT and/or have surgeries and you are still a woman on your female days if you decide that you don't want to transition.
2)Think about what exactly you want/don't want depending on your gender and how you could deal with not having that/having that. As an example- do you need breasts do be happy as a girl? Would you feel bad having breasts as a guy? Depending on your answer, you might decide that you need HRT because you wouldn't be happy on your girl days without having breasts and wearing a binder on your guy days would be easier. Or you might decide that having breasts on your guy days would be worse than not having them on girl days so you might opt for no HRT and only wearing breast forms on girl days. Look at all the possible effects of HRT and look how much you want each of them (or not want them) and if any of those are dealbreakers for you- I'm not that well informed on what HRT does for trans feminine people so I'll use an example from myself: I would love the body fat changes that testosterone would give me, I would like the increase of body hair and the deeper voice, and I could deal with the facial hair. But T also does certain *ahem* downstairs changes and I definitely don't want those, they are a dealbreaker for me. So even though I would want a lot of the effects of T, because of this one thing I have decided to not pursue getting HRT, at least for now. So, make a list and look if the positives of transition outweigh the negatives for you and decide based on that.
3)Know that you don't need to have all the answers right now and that you can change your mind any time and that's okay! You can stop HRT if you feel like it doesn't work for you anymore, or you can decide to start at a later time. Transition also doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. There are plenty of trans people, especially genderqueer and genderfluid people, who decide to transition for some time and then stop. There are people who go on T and later get electrolysis because they like all the changes except the facial hair. There are people who want top or bottom surgery but don't want HRT and people who want HRT but no surgery. Just make sure you know all the possible changes and which of them are permanent so you don't get surprised.
4)Think about things that can help you feel more like your current gender that are not actual physical changes. Things like makeup, the right clothes, shaving, breastforms/binding/tucking/packing etc can go a long way in making you feel more comfortable. Also having different names and pronouns depending on your current gender can help if you have supportive people who use them (even if it's just online).

I hope some of that is at least a little helpful to you. And if you need someone to talk to about this stuff, I'm willing to listen. :smallsmile:

[Dire Moose]

In many very real ways, I actually have transitioned. I am out to most of my family and friends as genderfluid, and most of them have gotten to spend significant amounts of time with female me. I've gotten a number of membership cards and such changed to reflect my preferred name and pictures of my female self as well, as I spend more of my off hours as female and spend my work hours and a few other situations as male. I'm already doing a minor version of HRT and have been for almost a month now.

On the subject of breasts, I have wished for them since I started puberty. I did all kinds of things to myself to make it look like I had them. I can't achieve anything close with breastforms or whatever because I want to actually see and feel them on me, even when I'm not wearing anything. I'd prefer not to have to bind as male, but having real breasts is worth it to me. Electrolysis is another thing I plan to do as I hate having to shave all my body hair off in the mornings.

On the male side, I definitely don't want to lose what I have downstairs, and I still want everything there to function as it used to. I also don't want my desires in that area to lose their intensity.

Not sure how possible any of that is or what that would indicate about me.

[ve4grm]

In many very real ways, I actually have transitioned. I am out to most of my family and friends as genderfluid, and most of them have gotten to spend significant amounts of time with female me. I've gotten a number of membership cards and such changed to reflect my preferred name and pictures of my female self as well, as I spend more of my off hours as female and spend my work hours and a few other situations as male. I'm already doing a minor version of HRT and have been for almost a month now.

On the subject of breasts, I have wished for them since I started puberty. I did all kinds of things to myself to make it look like I had them. I can't achieve anything close with breastforms or whatever because I want to actually see and feel them on me, even when I'm not wearing anything. I'd prefer not to have to bind as male, but having real breasts is worth it to me. Electrolysis is another thing I plan to do as I hate having to shave all my body hair off in the mornings.

On the male side, I definitely don't want to lose what I have downstairs, and I still want everything there to function as it used to. I also don't want my desires in that area to lose their intensity.

Not sure how possible any of that is or what that would indicate about me.

This is a really complex situation. It seems like what you really want would be to be able to fully physically transition between male and female depending on the day, which unfortunately isn't possible at the moment.

If I'm not wrong, I think genderfluid folks need to come to terms with it being the outward expression and internal feeling that matters more than the physical form?

Regardless, I think your doctor may have a point (based on something you brought up earlier). With the complexity of the current situation, you might want to hold off on hormone treatment until you know for sure what you want, what you need, and what the effects will be.

For example - estrogen can cause you to grow breasts, but can also interfere with your... er... functioning downstairs. There are tradeoffs to be considered.

I really think you should do this under the care of a doctor, anyways. Your current one seems willing to support you in the endeavor, just hesitant as you seem conflicted at the moment. But HRT causes (some) permanent changes, and if you have medical support available you should probably use it.

I hope you figure out what you need and can achieve it.

[Icewraith]

On the male side, I definitely don't want to lose what I have downstairs, and I still want everything there to function as it used to. I also don't want my desires in that area to lose their intensity.

Not sure how possible any of that is or what that would indicate about me.

HRT absolutely can mess all of that up for you. Permanently.

I know gatekeeping causes a lot of harm but I think your situation in particular is what it's supposed to be for.

I am almost certain that you will not be able to get everything you described exactly as you described it, but your doctor will know, and will be able to give you a better idea of what the trade-offs and side effects will be, and how permanent they will be (or how long they will take to reverse, and what else you'll lose if you try to reverse them).

In the meantime, I would encourage you to go easier on yourself when it comes to "authenticity".

[Astrella]

Honestly the effect on the downstairs varies a ton and is mostly reversible. (Fertility would be the issue I suppose it might not come back fully so I'd store material) Like I was still able to get erections and all that 3+ years into HRT. I've never used my bits the "traditional way" though so I wouldn't be able to tell you how that works out if you care about that though. (I'd check out r/asktransgender or such and ask around a bit there).

[WarKitty]

Is there a term that means something like "female assumed" or "male assumed"? Kind of like AFAB or AMAB, but talking about current external perception rather than birth assignment. It's coming up in discussions of gendered social expectations, where one salient point is how someone is perceived socially. So a "female assumed" person could be a cis woman, trans man, trans woman...you get the idea.

[137beth]

Is there a term that means something like "female assumed" or "male assumed"? Kind of like AFAB or AMAB, but talking about current external perception rather than birth assignment. It's coming up in discussions of gendered social expectations, where one salient point is how someone is perceived socially. So a "female assumed" person could be a cis woman, trans man, trans woman...you get the idea.

Female-presenting or male-presenting is the closest I can think of. It’s not always as clear as afab/amab, since those often refer to what was on your birth certificate on the other hand different people may make different assumptions about your gender at any given moment, whereas you usually just have one birth certificate.


Also, some people may perceive me as seemingly female even if I am trying to present as male, or vice versa.

[Serpentine]

Dire Moose, it's not the same situation as yours, but maybe it could be helpful to look into the stories of people like Norrie May-Welby (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norrie_May-Welby) and other nonbinary people, see if they can offer any guidance or at least a feeling of camaraderie. Maybe see if any of these people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:People_with_non-binary_gender_identities) have autobiographies? Not to go looking for someone with the exact same story as you, but to get an idea of how other people have dealt with at least vaguely similar issues.

[JusticeZero]

Is there a term that means something like "female assumed" or "male assumed"? Kind of like AFAB or AMAB, but talking about current external perception rather than birth assignment.
Try "Read as X".

[Dire Moose]

So, several things happened this weekend. I'm not sure what to make of them.

First, I went to my first therapy session on Saturday, where I was confronted with the idea that I may have to give up certain things I enjoyed as male if I want to move forward with expressing myself as female. I didn't respond very favorably to that, so we ended up agreeing that something unrelated to gender was involved.

I watched Star Wars that evening, cosplaying as Rey. While I do like the character of Rey I still found myself wishing I could still identify with Luke, especially during a certain scene near the end which I'm not going to spoil.

The next day, a sudden thought came to me: "What do you have to gain by being female?" The answer was "nothing, really." Maybe the fulfillment of a few fantasies and a broader perspective on life might be gained, but very little beyond that.

So at that point, I lost most of my desire to be female. At the same time, I came down with a really horrible flu that has kept me feeling really bad and unable to work for the last few days.

I'm really confused. Am I really just a guy with weird fantasies I had to try out? Am I genderfluid as I suggested earlier and this is a temporary switch back to male? And does this awful flu have anything to do with this?

[JusticeZero]

The next day, a sudden thought came to me: "What do you have to gain by being female?" The answer was "nothing, really." Maybe the fulfillment of a few fantasies and a broader perspective on life might be gained, but very little beyond that.
I come from a sexist upbringing. What do I have to gain by being female? Nothing tangible. Extra chores. Less pay. I get listened to less. I could be telling guys the building is on fire and they would talk over me and ignore me. I lost most of my upper body strength. It's a pain. Boobs get in the way because they wander into your way when you least expect. Clothes are expensive and lack pockets. Voice training is a pain. Makeup is spendy and tastes bad.

I'm still female.

It has nothing to do with a cost-benefit analysis.

[lio45]

I come from a sexist upbringing. What do I have to gain by being female? Nothing tangible. Extra chores. Less pay. I get listened to less. I could be telling guys the building is on fire and they would talk over me and ignore me. I lost most of my upper body strength. It's a pain. Boobs get in the way because they wander into your way when you least expect. Clothes are expensive and lack pockets. Voice training is a pain. Makeup is spendy and tastes bad.

I'm still female.

It has nothing to do with a cost-benefit analysis.

You're answering Dire Moose's question pretty directly though -- because in DM's case the cost/benefit logic does apply as soon as they feel like it does, which they do.

In your case the answer was obviously "you're female, so, go ahead and transition".

In DM's case it's the opposite: if you find yourself weighing the pros and cons of each gender, then don't transition.

[ve4grm]

So, several things happened this weekend. I'm not sure what to make of them.

First, I went to my first therapy session on Saturday, where I was confronted with the idea that I may have to give up certain things I enjoyed as male if I want to move forward with expressing myself as female. I didn't respond very favorably to that, so we ended up agreeing that something unrelated to gender was involved.

I'm happy to hear that you're seeing someone to work through your feelings on all of this. Too many people don't get the assistance they need. I hope it helps you!


I'm really confused. Am I really just a guy with weird fantasies I had to try out? Am I genderfluid as I suggested earlier and this is a temporary switch back to male? And does this awful flu have anything to do with this?

This isn't really something any of us can answer. Like JusticeZero did, we can only give you our stories, and let you maybe learn from them.

If you want a label (it can help to come to terms with something if you know what to call it), you might want to go with a simple "non-binary". As a blanket term, it kind-of-includes genderfluid as well (I think) as well as a variety of other positions on the spectrum of gender.

It may be that now that you've tried it and thought about it, you're just male. It may be that you're genderfluid, but being sick has reverted your mental state to the more familiar gender for comfort. It may just be that, as a genderfluid person, you will inevitably switch back and forth at times, and this time coincided with your flu. Or it may be that you're just somewhere on the non-binary scale, neither fully male nor female, and you just need to figure out where on that scale you lie.

As a cis (or at least cis-adjacent) guy, all I can really offer is understanding, but I wish you the best in your therapy sessions and whatever progress you make on your own.

[Icewraith]

So, several things happened this weekend. I'm not sure what to make of them.

First, I went to my first therapy session on Saturday, where I was confronted with the idea that I may have to give up certain things I enjoyed as male if I want to move forward with expressing myself as female. I didn't respond very favorably to that, so we ended up agreeing that something unrelated to gender was involved.

I watched Star Wars that evening, cosplaying as Rey. While I do like the character of Rey I still found myself wishing I could still identify with Luke, especially during a certain scene near the end which I'm not going to spoil.

The next day, a sudden thought came to me: "What do you have to gain by being female?" The answer was "nothing, really." Maybe the fulfillment of a few fantasies and a broader perspective on life might be gained, but very little beyond that.

So at that point, I lost most of my desire to be female. At the same time, I came down with a really horrible flu that has kept me feeling really bad and unable to work for the last few days.

I'm really confused. Am I really just a guy with weird fantasies I had to try out? Am I genderfluid as I suggested earlier and this is a temporary switch back to male? And does this awful flu have anything to do with this?

My understanding is that if you're fluid, you should expect to bounce back and forth between the genders over time. Permanent changes (or things that take months to reverse) probably aren't the way to go, at least until your sense of gender stays on one side or the other for an extended period of time. If that happens, you can re-evaluate.

In the meantime, keep seeing your therapist. SOMETHING is clearly still up.

Maybe I'm reading into this too much, but it sounds like you don't like the idea of being "just" a guy with a fetish/gender-related fantasies or someone who is only a little genderfluid. If it turns out one of those descriptions is what best suits you, the "optimal" life adjustment for you is going to look very different than it will for someone who is highly genderfluid or transgender.

[JusticeZero]

In your case the answer was obviously "you're female, so, go ahead and transition".
In DM's case it's the opposite: if you find yourself weighing the pros and cons of each gender, then don't transition.
Actually, my point is: That's the wrong question! Mu! "'Should I open the left door or the right door?' . o O ( They're both trapped but now I can't tell you to use the teleport circle! )
Track your gender for awhile. You already SAID you were fluid, so by definition of the previous definition you would flip flop, so it will surprise nobody if you go male for now and diary your feelings so you can revisit the question later if you find yourself clawing at the walls wanting skirts and estrogen. Labels describe past behavior and can be changed.

As I recall, I have had two talks with people who are gender fluid where they said that they would think they were being kind of silly when they thought back about their other mode times. I have a hard time understanding that mindset, but what you just described sounds.. a lot like one of their switches.

Also: Just had to have a discussion about insurance garbage with HR. No resolution and now I am feeling kind of sort of hopeless and dysphoric-ish.

[Heliomance]

Mrr. Potential TMI below.

I have exhibitionist tendencies. I'm feeling quite conflicted about them at the moment. I've just spent the evening on a group video call with a bunch of friends, and (as such things occasionally happen), all the guys involved ended up topless. And I spent the evening wanting to follow suit. I'm not attracted to any of them, I just wanted to strip off my top and be sexy on camera. And I'm deeply conflicted about that urge. I've got the social conditioning that says Nice Girls Don't Do That, I've got the fact that I don't want any of them to get the wrong idea and think it means something it doesn't (even though I know they probably wouldn't, because most of them are kinksters of various flavours and understand such things), I've got the little voice telling me I wouldn't be able to look them in the eye after they've seen my boobs.

I don't know how to fight the voice telling me that they'll all just think of me as "that slut who likes getting her tits out on camera". I don't know if I should fight it. It feels like a weird thing to want to do, and that I'm a bad person for wanting to do it.

[JusticeZero]

I've just spent the evening on a group video call with a bunch of friends, and (as such things occasionally happen), all the guys involved ended up topless. And I spent the evening wanting to follow suit. I'm not attracted to any of them, I just wanted to strip off my top and be sexy on camera. And I'm deeply conflicted about that urge. I've got the social conditioning that says Nice Girls Don't Do That, I've got the fact that I don't want any of them to get the wrong idea and think it means something it doesn't (even though I know they probably wouldn't, because most of them are kinksters of various flavours and understand such things), I've got the little voice telling me I wouldn't be able to look them in the eye after they've seen my boobs.

I don't know how to fight the voice telling me that they'll all just think of me as "that slut who likes getting her tits out on camera". I don't know if I should fight it. It feels like a weird thing to want to do, and that I'm a bad person for wanting to do it.
Doesn't seem weird at all to me. It seems like a completely reasonable thing to want to take off an annoying elastic top in a situation where it is the social norm for EVERYBODY ELSE to do the same thing.

And it is completely understandable to be reluctant of doing that for the simple reason that men are, to me at least, terrifying, dangerous, horribly emotional, and pretty unpredictable. Disclaimer with 'not all' statements however makes you masculine types okay about that statement of course. It's just a few that are actually dangerous. Your mileage may vary and the perceptions of a trans girl from a sexist rural background who watched a lot of abusive men going about their business and targeting lots of people who were not her before she was out aren't exactly typical. But the fact of the matter is that it is common knowledge that taking one's top off in front of a bunch of men while being a boob-possessing person creates all sorts of opportunities for things to potentially go incredibly, horrifyingly bad unexpectedly.

So wanting to take your top does NOT make you a bad person at all, and neither does deciding not to.

[Recherché]

Mrr. Potential TMI below.

I have exhibitionist tendencies. I'm feeling quite conflicted about them at the moment. I've just spent the evening on a group video call with a bunch of friends, and (as such things occasionally happen), all the guys involved ended up topless. And I spent the evening wanting to follow suit. I'm not attracted to any of them, I just wanted to strip off my top and be sexy on camera. And I'm deeply conflicted about that urge. I've got the social conditioning that says Nice Girls Don't Do That, I've got the fact that I don't want any of them to get the wrong idea and think it means something it doesn't (even though I know they probably wouldn't, because most of them are kinksters of various flavours and understand such things), I've got the little voice telling me I wouldn't be able to look them in the eye after they've seen my boobs.

I don't know how to fight the voice telling me that they'll all just think of me as "that slut who likes getting her tits out on camera". I don't know if I should fight it. It feels like a weird thing to want to do, and that I'm a bad person for wanting to do it.

I sometimes have the same urge both on the wanting to wander around topless and on the wanting to look sexy angle. It's part of why some of my cosplay outfits are much lower cut than is strictly needed. Being desired and knowing that can be freaking hot. So yeah nothing too weird there.

As for how you decide to deal with the urge that's up to you. I do exhibitionism in carefully controlled circumstances where no one knows my real name and where I have backup in case anything does go wrong. But that's just me. I won't judge you whatever you do.

[WarKitty]

Mrr. Potential TMI below.

I have exhibitionist tendencies. I'm feeling quite conflicted about them at the moment. I've just spent the evening on a group video call with a bunch of friends, and (as such things occasionally happen), all the guys involved ended up topless. And I spent the evening wanting to follow suit. I'm not attracted to any of them, I just wanted to strip off my top and be sexy on camera. And I'm deeply conflicted about that urge. I've got the social conditioning that says Nice Girls Don't Do That, I've got the fact that I don't want any of them to get the wrong idea and think it means something it doesn't (even though I know they probably wouldn't, because most of them are kinksters of various flavours and understand such things), I've got the little voice telling me I wouldn't be able to look them in the eye after they've seen my boobs.

I don't know how to fight the voice telling me that they'll all just think of me as "that slut who likes getting her tits out on camera". I don't know if I should fight it. It feels like a weird thing to want to do, and that I'm a bad person for wanting to do it.

I have the urge to go around topless because who decided that modesty requires me to have an annoying, over-expensive padded sweaty thing stuck on my chest anyway? Plus bra sizing in cheap stores is actually extremely restrictive compared to the size variation in women.

Sadly, with the internet, all it takes is one person to take a picture, and it's online forever.

[Lady Tialait]

Mrr. Potential TMI below.

I have exhibitionist tendencies. I'm feeling quite conflicted about them at the moment. I've just spent the evening on a group video call with a bunch of friends, and (as such things occasionally happen), all the guys involved ended up topless. And I spent the evening wanting to follow suit. I'm not attracted to any of them, I just wanted to strip off my top and be sexy on camera. And I'm deeply conflicted about that urge. I've got the social conditioning that says Nice Girls Don't Do That, I've got the fact that I don't want any of them to get the wrong idea and think it means something it doesn't (even though I know they probably wouldn't, because most of them are kinksters of various flavours and understand such things), I've got the little voice telling me I wouldn't be able to look them in the eye after they've seen my boobs.

I don't know how to fight the voice telling me that they'll all just think of me as "that slut who likes getting her tits out on camera". I don't know if I should fight it. It feels like a weird thing to want to do, and that I'm a bad person for wanting to do it.

Yep, totally makes sense. The programming of society is complete. To avoid discomfort to others, we are all programmed to never deviate from the norm, this programming goes extremely deeply and has an important purpose.

So, here is my advice, realize the very fact that you had the backlash against your deviant behavior means you understand the social programming, and by understanding something you can overcome it.

Shorter advice: Let out a loud WOO! like a roller coaster, and rip that top off like a band aid next time.

[Dire Moose]

Well, that definitely didn't last. I'm back to being a boygirl again, and I'm glad to be there. The more I experience things, the more I'm persuaded that "both" is where I best fit.

https://i.imgur.com/44JpwoB.jpg

Also, I'm staying on this low-dose "halfway" version of HRT for now as it's working for me so far. The point is basically to achieve a "perfectly neutral" appearance by default. Biggest thing I'm noticing lately are that my breasts have developed little buds inside that are rock-hard and ache a lot.

To go along with what Heliomance said.... yes, a part of me is going to miss being able to go topless in public as well, and it's silly that we're so hung up on certain taboos. I personally enjoy casual home nudity myself and would gladly do so in more of a social context if people were more open-minded. Although seeing a half-boy, half-girl in that state would probably raise more than just a few eyebrows in most places...

[AuthorGirl]

So . . . not to hijack the thread from what the most excellent Dire Moose and Heliomance have been talking about, but I could use a quick tip or two.

I really wanna come out (as bi) to my family early in this coming year, but I'm rather apprehensive of their reaction. I can predict a lot of "are you sure?" which is why I've waited a while (I want to be able to say that yes, I'm sure, I gave myself a lot of time to figure it out and observe how I felt). The thing is, I've only ever dated guys - I know that doesn't make me straight, but it makes me look straight, if you know what I mean.

I could use some advice on how to present it so I'm taken seriously.

I'm also a little worried about how to deal with any fallout. I know my Nana (paternal grandmother) is fairly conservative. My Grandma (maternal grandmother) believes in rights for homosexual and trans people, but I'm not sure she sees bisexuality as a legitimate thing. Grandpa does not discuss his political leanings. My mom and dad would probably accept me after the initial "are you sure," but they're not the people I spend all day every day with. My grandparents are.

And then, of course, Grandma will out anybody to anyone (literally as the new minister is shaking hands with people after her first service at our church: "I think she's a lesbian!"). I can expect everyone in my congregation to know as soon as someone mentions LGBTAI+ stuff and, while I do want to be totally out eventually, I'd rather have a bit more control over the process.

TL;DR: standard teenage worries over coming out to my family. How do I:

1. be believed?

2. deal with possible negative reactions?

3. keep it from becoming the latest bit of coffee table conversation before I'm ready for that?

[JusticeZero]

1. be believed?Don't use the term "bisexual" until you have explained your experience in full. Just like one should never say "I am transgender" until after hammering people with a long description of their gender dysphoria.
2. deal with possible negative reactions?Have a place to sleep figured out and be ready to leave forever in five minutes from telling them. Make sure they can't drain your bank account immediately. Have personal paperwork and ID ready to go. Bring a friend with a vehicle.

3. keep it from becoming the latest bit of coffee table conversation before I'm ready for that?No idea. I find that people are very apathetic really. I don't come out to people often because it just doesn't come up, and it isn't going to be any easier for others to work you into their conversations.

[AuthorGirl]

Don't use the term "bisexual" until you have explained your experience in full. Just like one should never say "I am transgender" until after hammering people with a long description of their gender dysphoria.

Okay, that sounds good, thank you. "I've been having crushes on other girls," then "I still like guys," then "After a fair amount of thought, I've figured out that I'm bisexual"?


Have a place to sleep figured out and be ready to leave forever in five minutes from telling them. Make sure they can't drain your bank account immediately. Have personal paperwork and ID ready to go. Bring a friend with a vehicle.

Ye merciful heavens, did I accidentally present this as worse than it is? I'm quite sorry if I got you unnecessarily worried! To clarify: I sleep at my parents' house anyway, and I'm worried about generally unpleasant dynamics (nasty lectures, invasive questions and the like), not being thrown out. That's really not how we do things.


No idea. I find that people are very apathetic really. I don't come out to people often because it just doesn't come up, and it isn't going to be any easier for others to work you into their conversations.

I shall hope you're right, though this is a lady who for some reason seems to really like pointing out which people are LGBTAI+. Thank you again! :smallsmile:

[noparlpf]

You're also not actually obligated to come out to people who aren't going to handle it respectfully.

[AuthorGirl]

You're also not actually obligated to come out to people who aren't going to handle it respectfully.

Oh I know that, and I thought about it, but at the end of the day I would like my family to know this about me and accept it. If that's a bit of an adjustment for them, all the more reason to do it soon and properly.

I have a lot of faith in my parents - it might take a little while but they'll be fine - and my grandparents shouldn't be too impossible (if, again, they're approached properly). I was just hoping for some tips on how to do that proper . . . idk, procedure. If there really is one. Playing it by ear is scarier but possible.

[Recherché]

One thing I'd suggest is staggering coming out. Tell the people you trust most to accept you and not to gossip first and make sure they're on your side and understand the situation. Then later move on to the ones that are more touchy.

[WarKitty]

Alternately, just tell it to the most gossipy person and let everyone else find out. That way you don't have to come out to them directly!

[AuthorGirl]

One thing I'd suggest is staggering coming out. Tell the people you trust most to accept you and not to gossip first and make sure they're on your side and understand the situation. Then later move on to the ones that are more touchy.


Alternately, just tell it to the most gossipy person and let everyone else find out. That way you don't have to come out to them directly!

Heh. Maybe a mix of both XD

[JusticeZero]

Talk to people one at a time, have your facts straight, present it as fact, do not be even the slightest bit altered, don't present unusually when you have the talk.

[AuthorGirl]

Talk to people one at a time, have your facts straight, present it as fact, do not be even the slightest bit altered, don't present unusually when you have the talk.

Sounds very solid. Can you tell me a little more of what you mean by presenting unusually? :smallsmile:

[lcavalheiro]

Just popping here to keep in touch of fellow LGBTAI+ forum member :smallwink:

[JusticeZero]

Most obviously, if you are AMAB, don't show up in a dress. Don't show up dressed for a Pride parade. Don't change your appearance before the meeting drastically from what they are used to.

[Boggartbae]

If functionality is what you're worried about, I know some trans women on E who just take viagra, and it works for them. Might be something to look into.

[The Extinguisher]

in an effort not to mope around the house on new years eve, ive decided to go out to the bar to mope. ive got makeup on and im wearing a skirt and its the first time ive gone out like this and im super nervous but excited to have a good time.

i think this is a good way to start 2018. i had a real bad last couple of years but this year is gonna be my year

[Dire Moose]

If functionality is what you're worried about, I know some trans women on E who just take viagra, and it works for them. Might be something to look into.

That was an option my wife and I have discussed, and might be a good idea if I ever end up on a full transition dose.

[Comrade]

in an effort not to mope around the house on new years eve, ive decided to go out to the bar to mope. ive got makeup on and im wearing a skirt and its the first time ive gone out like this and im super nervous but excited to have a good time.

i think this is a good way to start 2018. i had a real bad last couple of years but this year is gonna be my year

Hope you have a great time!

[The Extinguisher]

Hope you have a great time!

Thanks I'm full of anxiety but I'm hoping being full of alcohol will replace that

[JNAProductions]

Thanks I'm full of anxiety but I'm hoping being full of alcohol will replace that

Don't drink too much, don't be afraid to call a cab if you do drink too much, stay safe, and have a great time!

[Baby Gary]

Hi guys, I have been just checking out this thread even though I do not need support for anything, yet (if ever). I just wanted to get to know this side of the community.

However Happy New Year y'all, I hope you all have a great time with family, friends, or just by your self. 2017 is behind us and 2018 has a whole new years worth of possibilities, I just hope it doesn't turn into one big meme or whatever 2015 was. lol.

[Heliomance]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwTWRIkThgE
So this is a thing, and it's utterly adorable

[Serpentine]

I'm watching a show called A Korean Odyssey, and I think one of the characters (and/or actors?) might be a trans woman. There's a lot of body-hopping in this show, though, so I don't know whether it was, like, a female demon in a male body or something like that. But it wasn't played for laughs or anything like that, seemed pretty low-key. I also didn't catch the character's name, so I can't look up her or the actor. Until I found out anything otherwise, though, I'm just gonna go with "one of the characters just happens to be a trans woman, neat".

[Florian]

Hello folks, need a bit of help on a RPG-related issue:

One of my players will gain a cohort beginning with the upcoming session and it will be a Rivethun character. Rivethun is a Golarion-specific dwarfish animist/shamanistic tradition that is quite popular with transgender (and even transracial) people.

Now I'm somehow drawing a blank here. AFAIK, shamanism is about contacting outside forces and the spirit world, not really about body and soul. What bothers me somehow more is that this character is already slowly morphing the body around, being able to make a full transition (race as well as gender) each 24h period. I've a hard time connecting both aspects and I'm not quite sure how to portray them together. Any suggestions?

(PF mechanics: Dwarf Psychic (Rivethun) 5/Rivethun Emissary 3)

[Haven]

Hello folks, need a bit of help on a RPG-related issue:

One of my players will gain a cohort beginning with the upcoming session and it will be a Rivethun character. Rivethun is a Golarion-specific dwarfish animist/shamanistic tradition that is quite popular with transgender (and even transracial) people.

Now I'm somehow drawing a blank here. AFAIK, shamanism is about contacting outside forces and the spirit world, not really about body and soul. What bothers me somehow more is that this character is already slowly morphing the body around, being able to make a full transition (race as well as gender) each 24h period. I've a hard time connecting both aspects and I'm not quite sure how to portray them together. Any suggestions?

(PF mechanics: Dwarf Psychic (Rivethun) 5/Rivethun Emissary 3)

I don't know from Golarion, but real-world shamanic traditions are very centered on the body. To the extent that "shamanism" is an identifiable form of religious tradition across cultures, shamans are traditionally the people with the most medical knowledge, and many traditions involve visions in which the initiate communes with a being who (in the vision) replaces part of their body with something else that grants them power. Shamans are also frequently outside the gender norms of their societies, mixing behaviors and customs that are masculine and feminine.

Do a little research, it's fascinating stuff. I recommend Eliade's "Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy", it's a bit dated but holds up better than most anthropology from the fifties.

As for "transitioning race", I advise you to...not do that. Like if it's an official mechanical thing, you should probably just drop it, or at the very least don't use the phrase "transracial".

[Florian]

As for "transitioning race", I advise you to...not do that. Like if it's an official mechanical thing, you should probably just drop it, or at the very least don't use the phrase "transracial".

Mind explaining why?

[JusticeZero]

For one, transracial is a specific thing, it means a child raised entirely by a family of a different racial background, eg. an eastern Asian infant adopted by a Latinx family.

Two, there are a few sensationalized stories lately of people wanting to change race - but being transgender is deeply bound to biology, it's a medical intersex condition of brain architecture... Race has no biological basis. A pair of same sex fraternal twins have more difference between them, genetically, than the markers of two races, it's more tied to political thoughts about geopolitics than anything. There is no biological route for a baby to have been born in a different socioeconomic class two thousand miles away. The analysis of the people who are claiming a background like that is fairly complex, but tends to be a bit creepy from the perspective of the people who had to live with being from those places, all the notes are replicated oddly and nonsensically. They tend to also creep us transgender people out because they are basically an embodiment of "lol attack helicopter" used to belittle us and imply that we are delusional instead of medically gender incongruous.

[Murk]

Two, there are a few sensationalized stories lately of people wanting to change race - but being transgender is deeply bound to biology, it's a medical intersex condition of brain architecture... [...]

This does make it confusing for me. I've always learned that the big difference between sex and gender is that gender isn't a biological thing but a cultural thing? Isn't that, like, a hugely important thing?

[Dire Moose]

Well, no more estrogen under the radar anymore for me soon.

I just signed a medical release with my therapist today to allow her to share info with my doctor, and an official HRT letter should be in by the end of the month.

Feeling pretty excited here!:smallbiggrin:

[Lentrax]

A friend of mine recently asked on FB for some gender neutral terms for extended family members. But being the ignorant idiot I am, I don't know any, not in English anyway.

Can anyone help me out?

[Serpentine]

A friend of mine recently asked on FB for some gender neutral terms for extended family members. But being the ignorant idiot I am, I don't know any, not in English anyway.

Can anyone help me out?
Well, there's the obvious of parent, grandparent, cousin... I'm guessing that's referring to things like niece/nephew and aunt/uncle? I learned from a Playgrounder that the gender neutral for niece/nephew is nibling, which is adorable. There doesn't seem to be one for aunt/uncle, though (and no gendered terms for cousin, interestingly).

[Jormengand]

This does make it confusing for me. I've always learned that the big difference between sex and gender is that gender isn't a biological thing but a cultural thing? Isn't that, like, a hugely important thing?

Gender is a biological thing because it's to do with the brain and the brain is biological. "Culture" doesn't come into it unless we're talking gender roles or gender stereotypes.

[Heliomance]

Well, there's the obvious of parent, grandparent, cousin... I'm guessing that's referring to things like niece/nephew and aunt/uncle? I learned from a Playgrounder that the gender neutral for niece/nephew is nibling, which is adorable. There doesn't seem to be one for aunt/uncle, though (and no gendered terms for cousin, interestingly).

I'm told aunt/uncle is pibling, though it's less well known than even nibling is and also sounds stupid.

[Sobol]

"While I pondered, idly scribbling, suddenly there came my pibling,
And they said to me: dear nibling, take the mop and clean the floor..."

(c) Edgar Allan Poe

[Chen]

I'm told aunt/uncle is pibling, though it's less well known than even nibling is and also sounds stupid.

Uh yeah gotta agree there. Nibling definitely sounds very kid like too so sounds pretty odd/inappropriate for adult nieces and nephews. And yes I can see its somehow coming from sibling, but it doesn't sound nearly as childish. Maybe we're just used to it...

[Serpentine]

Ah right, yeah, sorry. I did come across pibling. That seems to be a recent invention, along with something like "auncle".
It's odd, the things English genders and the things it doesn't, and the ones that change over time (eg "girl" used to be neuter).

So let's see, we have:

Son/Daughter/Offspring - Old English from "off-spring" - or Progeny - From Latin for "beget" via Old French (or child, spawn, etc)
Mother/Father/Parent - From Latin for "bring forth" via Old French
Brother/Sister/Sibling - Old English for any relative
Niece/Nephew/Nibling? - apparently goes back to 1951 and coined by a linguist, so that's not a bad provenance really
Uncle/Aunt/??Pibling - From Urban Dictionary. Hmm.
??/??/Cousin - From Latin for "cousin", go figure, via Old French.
Husband/Wife/Spouse - From Latin for "betrothed" via Old French

So it seems like Old French might be worth plundering if it has something for these missing words... Any Old French speakers in the Playground?

[Florian]

For one, transracial is a specific thing, it means a child raised entirely by a family of a different racial background, eg. an eastern Asian infant adopted by a Latinx family.

Two, there are a few sensationalized stories lately of people wanting to change race - but being transgender is deeply bound to biology, it's a medical intersex condition of brain architecture... Race has no biological basis. A pair of same sex fraternal twins have more difference between them, genetically, than the markers of two races, it's more tied to political thoughts about geopolitics than anything. There is no biological route for a baby to have been born in a different socioeconomic class two thousand miles away. The analysis of the people who are claiming a background like that is fairly complex, but tends to be a bit creepy from the perspective of the people who had to live with being from those places, all the notes are replicated oddly and nonsensically. They tend to also creep us transgender people out because they are basically an embodiment of "lol attack helicopter" used to belittle us and imply that we are delusional instead of medically gender incongruous.

No, sorry. We're talking about a game where race is a thing (Human, dwarves, elves...) and even interracial intercourse will generate offspring (from Half-Elves and -Orcs to Aasimar and Tiefling), which clearly overrides "human Subspecies" by don't giving a damn. Yes there might be "Garundi" Humans, or "Taldaran" Humans, but that doesn't go into creating mixed races at any point.

[JusticeZero]

This does make it confusing for me. I've always learned that the big difference between sex and gender is that gender isn't a biological thing but a cultural thing? Isn't that, like, a hugely important thing?
How cultures perform masculinity or femininity is widely variable. The switch anatomically hard-wired into your brain that tells you which role to perform, not so much. Look up David Reimer.

No, sorry. We're talking about a game where race is a thing (Human, dwarves, elves...) and even interracial intercourse will generate offspring (from Half-Elves and -Orcs to Aasimar and Tiefling), which clearly overrides "human Subspecies" by don't giving a damn. Yes there might be "Garundi" Humans, or "Taldaran" Humans, but that doesn't go into creating mixed races at any point.
The actual biology in the setting might make things different, yes.

However.

It still is a bit squicky for somebody who just had to deal with somebody trying to treat them like a joke by bringing up somebody "Transracial" in a shock news story to deal with. Thus, it's probably best not to just spring it on people without being aware that it has some unfortunate unintended similarities to some nastiness trans people put up with too often.

[Florian]

Nah, people I game with are mostly from the BDSM crowd with an overlap into hard-core feminism.
Being germans, we all have a very marked stance when it comes to stuff like "Race and Racism" that makes what's going on in the US on that matter pretty incomprehensible to us.

I do know what triggers my folks and try to stay clear of it, altho I have their consent to use some of it when playing horror games, but this is non of it (Remember some of the discussions I had with Juniper on this board, about being stuck in a rural backwater and other places being way more accepting?)

[Eldest]

Nah, people I game with are mostly from the BDSM crowd with an overlap into hard-core feminism.
Being germans, we all have a very marked stance when it comes to stuff like "Race and Racism" that makes what's going on in the US on that matter pretty incomprehensible to us.

I do know what triggers my folks and try to stay clear of it, altho I have their consent to use some of it when playing horror games, but this is non of it (Remember some of the discussions I had with Juniper on this board, about being stuck in a rural backwater and other places being way more accepting?)

Son of a gun how do I get your crowds instead of neckbeards for games? :smalltongue:

[PopeLinus1]

Has anyone here read Rick Riordan, specifically his latter books?

[AuthorGirl]

Has anyone here read Rick Riordan, specifically his latter books?

Specifically the ones with the gay son of Hades?

[Grytorm]

I think he has a genderfluid child of Loki in an even later book.

[PopeLinus1]

I was actually referring to the ones that if you mention on the internet people will start complaining about the “PC bull” and “SJW crap” and how Rick Riordan will no longer be being read in people’s houses

So yes, you were both right.

[AuthorGirl]

I think he has a genderfluid child of Loki in an even later book.

Awesome, it'd be really cool to see how he presented that character. (And now I'm even madder at my local library, but hey, inter-library loan is a thing.)


I was actually referring to the ones that if you mention on the internet people will start complaining about the “PC bull” and “SJW crap” and how Rick Riordan will no longer be being read in people’s houses

So yes, you were both right.

. . . people are idiots.

[Dire Moose]

At this point I would rather not be referred to as "they/them" anymore. Male pronouns work on the few occasions I do willingly present male, but by default I would prefer she/her now.

I'm kind of gradually shifting more and more toward female now as I have grown more comfortable with being a girl. Not sure how to explain it considering in the past I largely just thought of myself as a guy, but still I can't deny what I'm going through now.

[Heliomance]

Bleargh. Just got a wave of dysphoria for the first time in ages. Hormones have been doing wonders for making me not hate my body, but apparently it's back now

[Florian]

. . . people are idiots.

People are generally just people. It´s important to keep a keen eye on the gap between "conservatives" and "progressives" and accept that society changes at an almost glacial rate compared to, say, technology - but it does change. When you are at the "spear tip" of change, it´s key to accept that what you accept as "normal" or even "good" will take some while and a lot of work to really hit the mainstream and trigger the huge step forward in accepting and incorporating that.

[AuthorGirl]

People are generally just people. It´s important to keep a keen eye on the gap between "conservatives" and "progressives" and accept that society changes at an almost glacial rate compared to, say, technology - but it does change. When you are at the "spear tip" of change, it´s key to accept that what you accept as "normal" or even "good" will take some while and a lot of work to really hit the mainstream and trigger the huge step forward in accepting and incorporating that.

Apologies for speaking out of turn.

I wasn't thinking of conservative viewpoints themselves, so much as just dropping an author and a story over political views. The rest of the story is still there and fun, and you don't have to agree with people to read about them.

[Lissou]

Ah right, yeah, sorry. I did come across pibling. That seems to be a recent invention, along with something like "auncle".
It's odd, the things English genders and the things it doesn't, and the ones that change over time (eg "girl" used to be neuter).

So let's see, we have:

Son/Daughter/Offspring - Old English from "off-spring" - or Progeny - From Latin for "beget" via Old French (or child, spawn, etc)
Mother/Father/Parent - From Latin for "bring forth" via Old French
Brother/Sister/Sibling - Old English for any relative
Niece/Nephew/Nibling? - apparently goes back to 1951 and coined by a linguist, so that's not a bad provenance really
Uncle/Aunt/??Pibling - From Urban Dictionary. Hmm.
??/??/Cousin - From Latin for "cousin", go figure, via Old French.
Husband/Wife/Spouse - From Latin for "betrothed" via Old French

So it seems like Old French might be worth plundering if it has something for these missing words... Any Old French speakers in the Playground?

I speak modern French? "spouse" probably comes from what is now "épouse" (female word for spouse, the male one being "époux") and "cousin" is the male form of "cousin" (the female form being "cousine". We don't have a gender neutral for sibling, cousin, aunt/uncle, niece/nephew or spouse. We have "parent" and "child" which are gender-neutral though. I don't think French will be much help here :P

[Dire Moose]

Took way too long to put the photos from last Christmas out there, but here they are. This was also the first time my parents got to see the female me in person, and it went well:

Pictures and Stuff (https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1svtK5gBm601pl-4_uyalrxvukCT3y1qtgxz5sQvO1yg/edit?usp=sharing)

PS: Jamie in the slideshow is me.

[noparlpf]

Bleargh. Just got a wave of dysphoria for the first time in ages. Hormones have been doing wonders for making me not hate my body, but apparently it's back now

Sorry to hear that. :smallfrown: You feeling any better now?

[Dire Moose]

So I have kind of vaguely danced around this one issue a lot because of how absurd it would sound, but I'm hitting a critical point in transition mentally and can't handle it anymore. There is one major thing tying me to being male that I just cannot get past. And it is tearing me apart.

I have been a huge fan of Legend of Zelda ever since my best friend got me Ocarina of Time for Christmas many years ago. I enjoyed the story, the gameplay, everything. But most of all, what I loved about this series was truly being able to see myself in the main character. Link and I do look very much alike, and the designers created the character as mainly a blank slate to fill in with your own personality. So I did. Link and I became more and more intertwined over time as I began seeing parallels to my life in the stories of the games, applying certain philosophical aspects of them to my own life, etc. I have even cosplaying Link at many conventions.

As I figured out more aspects of myself I simply integrated them into my version of Link. I realized I was probably mildly autistic? Well then Link must be mildly autistic too. After I came out as bisexual, I began viewing Link as bisexual as well.

This brings us to a rather obvious problem. I have now hit on the idea that I am transgender. And that I prefer being female over being male. And this is not something that I can treat like everything else. Applying that to Link is impossible as there is no "gender option" in the game. Link is clearly male. And to maintain the previously established connection, that would have to change. But it can't be changed. So therefore, I have no choice but to retain some identity as male, even if otherwise I'd rather not.

This must seem really silly to anyone reading this. After all, it's just a video game, right? And you can still be female and play a male character, right? Well, I tried that. Attempting to play while identifying and presenting female gave me such a sense of pain that I could feel it physically. It was as if something had been physically severed. Subsequent attempts led to me having to fight so hard to retain a sense of female identity that any enjoyment of the game was lost, and a sense of every bit of joy in it being gone, the experience being dead, and me just going through the motions. It seems it just isn't possible to have that kind of enjoyment as female because the connection is lost.

I have been dealing with the loss now by just not playing any of the games, but I look back and really wish I could play them, and feeling sad that I can't. Especially since life as female feels more vibrant, more exciting, and more joyful than life as male. There just is no way to integrate this one thing I really love into my identity as female, and it's driving me insane. I have been trying to think of any solution to this problem, even just find someone, anyone else who has gone through something similar, but no matter what I look for, it seems to me that nobody has ever had to deal with anything even remotely like this, ever.

So that's it. That's the one thing keeping me from jumping into transition. As stupid and silly as it may sound, it is very real and very frustrating to me. And I'm finally posting it here now because I'm getting to a point where I can't keep avoiding it anymore. Please let me know if there is anything that can be done or any way to deal with this.

A few other points:

Don't mention Linkle. She was a side character from one game that isn't even part of the series canon, and is thus irrelevant.

Don't point out that Link is androgynous. Androgynous and female are different things.

[Mystic Muse]

I can't offer solutions, or say I've been in a similar one, because neither would be true. I can at least sympathize with whag you're going through, and understand a little. The Legend of Zelda series are some of my favorite gamez. (OoT, Majora's Mask, Windwaker...)

The best I can offer is, try to find a game that you feel similarly about with a female charactee? Or hope Nintendo eventually releases a female option in their next LoZ game.

[Ifni]

A few years ago, I read about a dad who'd been playing a Zelda game with his young daughter (3-year-old, too young to read), and he'd been changing Link's pronouns on the fly so it became a story about a brave young girl instead of a brave young boy. He eventually wrote a patch to modify the gender-specific descriptions (as well as pronouns) within the game. It's described in this blog post (http://exple.tive.org/blarg/2012/11/07/flip-all-the-pronouns/?buffer_share=b4e6a&utm_source=buffer) (it looks like if you read down in the comments, someone else wrote a wrapper to make applying the patch easier).

I don't know if there's something similar out there for other Zelda games, but would something like this be helpful, or counterproductive?

(FWIW, when I was a kid I loved Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening on the Gameboy. The Gameboy character design is pretty darn androgynous - there's only a small number of pixels to work with - and the game let you select your character's own name, so I played the entire game with the firm headcanon that my character was a girl and it was just that everyone in the game world kept mistaking her for a boy.)

[Shadowscale]

Been on hormones for a year at this point. Time sure does fly.

[Dire Moose]

I am trying to play Metroid to compensate, but for some reason it just isn't the same.

The idea to mentally switch pronouns is one I've heard before, but the guy was only using it for The Wind Waker. It's a lot less believable when you try it on something like Twilight Princess.

I just wish there was a gender option in the games. This would not have been an issue if they had just done that.

Also, it concerns me that apparently, absolutely nobody has had to deal with an issue like this before. Why is it only me?

[JNAProductions]

I am trying to play Metroid to compensate, but for some reason it just isn't the same.

The idea to mentally switch pronouns is one I've heard before, but the guy was only using it for The Wind Waker. It's a lot less believable when you try it on something like Twilight Princess.

I just wish there was a gender option in the games. This would not have been an issue if they had just done that.

Also, it concerns me that apparently, absolutely nobody has had to deal with an issue like this before. Why is it only me?

I'm sure someone else has had a similar issue, they just might not post here, or feel embarrassed about it because they think it's silly and never posted it anywhere.

That being said, while I don't have the same issue, I definitely understand that this matters to you. It's an important part of your personal history that's being affected by transitioning. I honestly wish I could say something that would make it better, but I don't know.

Do know, though, that you've got our full support. We care about you. :)

[Eldest]

So I have kind of vaguely danced around this one issue a lot because of how absurd it would sound, but I'm hitting a critical point in transition mentally and can't handle it anymore. There is one major thing tying me to being male that I just cannot get past. And it is tearing me apart.

I have been a huge fan of Legend of Zelda ever since my best friend got me Ocarina of Time for Christmas many years ago. I enjoyed the story, the gameplay, everything. But most of all, what I loved about this series was truly being able to see myself in the main character. Link and I do look very much alike, and the designers created the character as mainly a blank slate to fill in with your own personality. So I did. Link and I became more and more intertwined over time as I began seeing parallels to my life in the stories of the games, applying certain philosophical aspects of them to my own life, etc. I have even cosplaying Link at many conventions.

As I figured out more aspects of myself I simply integrated them into my version of Link. I realized I was probably mildly autistic? Well then Link must be mildly autistic too. After I came out as bisexual, I began viewing Link as bisexual as well.

This brings us to a rather obvious problem. I have now hit on the idea that I am transgender. And that I prefer being female over being male. And this is not something that I can treat like everything else. Applying that to Link is impossible as there is no "gender option" in the game. Link is clearly male. And to maintain the previously established connection, that would have to change. But it can't be changed. So therefore, I have no choice but to retain some identity as male, even if otherwise I'd rather not.

This must seem really silly to anyone reading this. After all, it's just a video game, right? And you can still be female and play a male character, right? Well, I tried that. Attempting to play while identifying and presenting female gave me such a sense of pain that I could feel it physically. It was as if something had been physically severed. Subsequent attempts led to me having to fight so hard to retain a sense of female identity that any enjoyment of the game was lost, and a sense of every bit of joy in it being gone, the experience being dead, and me just going through the motions. It seems it just isn't possible to have that kind of enjoyment as female because the connection is lost.

I have been dealing with the loss now by just not playing any of the games, but I look back and really wish I could play them, and feeling sad that I can't. Especially since life as female feels more vibrant, more exciting, and more joyful than life as male. There just is no way to integrate this one thing I really love into my identity as female, and it's driving me insane. I have been trying to think of any solution to this problem, even just find someone, anyone else who has gone through something similar, but no matter what I look for, it seems to me that nobody has ever had to deal with anything even remotely like this, ever.

So that's it. That's the one thing keeping me from jumping into transition. As stupid and silly as it may sound, it is very real and very frustrating to me. And I'm finally posting it here now because I'm getting to a point where I can't keep avoiding it anymore. Please let me know if there is anything that can be done or any way to deal with this.

A few other points:

Don't mention Linkle. She was a side character from one game that isn't even part of the series canon, and is thus irrelevant.

Don't point out that Link is androgynous. Androgynous and female are different things.

May I ask what is stopping Link from simply being a transwoman?

[Dire Moose]

May I ask what is stopping Link from simply being a transwoman?

I think I'd enjoy playing a permanently closeted transwoman even less than playing a guy.

[Anymage]

Depending on what games you like and how you like to play them, a quick google for "zelda rom hacking tools" can allow you to find text editors. I don't know how in-depth you'd have to muck with the scripts for a lot of them (I haven't played a zelda game in a while), but simple "he" to "she" and "boy" to "girl" should be easy to just find and replace on your own. Depending on how in depth you want to go, you can even have Link start out being referred to as a boy, only to become the prophesied girl as the story progresses. Doesn't work on consoles (and good luck with any game with involved voice acting), but tools have been made so that you don't need messy hex editing to just make a few dialogue tweaks.

And I probably shouldn't mention that there used to be a Zelda cartoon that you can youtube. Giving a voiceless protagonist a voice can do things to your mental image.

[JNAProductions]

Depending on what games you like and how you like to play them, a quick google for "zelda rom hacking tools" can allow you to find text editors. I don't know how in-depth you'd have to muck with the scripts for a lot of them (I haven't played a zelda game in a while), but simple "he" to "she" and "boy" to "girl" should be easy to just find and replace on your own. Depending on how in depth you want to go, you can even have Link start out being referred to as a boy, only to become the prophesied girl as the story progresses. Doesn't work on consoles (and good luck with any game with involved voice acting), but tools have been made so that you don't need messy hex editing to just make a few dialogue tweaks.

And I probably shouldn't mention that there used to be a Zelda cartoon that you can youtube. Giving a voiceless protagonist a voice can do things to your mental image.

I cannot, in good conscience, recommend that cartoon. It is awful, but somehow hilarious, but at the same time... Just no.

[Dire Moose]

No good. Nothing works.

I wanted to play Zelda today, but I couldn't because I was too afraid of losing my female identity in it and feeling miserable again. And yet when I think about it, I would very much prefer playing as a female version of Link in those games if there was a choice. This would suggest I do actually identify more as female.

However, playing the games now still hurts me due to the disconnect between myself and Link. I feel no joy in playing the game as female due to the painful disconnect between myself and the character.

I feel like I can't make any progress unless Nintendo goes back .and adds a gender option to be female.

[Chen]

Only sugguestion at this point would be to play some games with a female character (or where you have a choice). You've talked recently about all the changes you're going through so perhaps at a later time the feeling will be less problematic when playing said games.

[Dire Moose]

I've calmed down a bit from last night. I suppose that's part of the reason I identify as genderfluid though; it still gives me the option of going back to male when I need to. Might still be necessary at least for now to be able to revert temporarily to male when needed.

With regards to female characters, I have started playing the Metroid Prime trilogy as well.

Also, here's a fairly recent picture of me now:

https://i.imgur.com/DJX8Dda.jpg

[Serpentine]

I'm watching a show called A Korean Odyssey, and I think one of the characters (and/or actors?) might be a trans woman. There's a lot of body-hopping in this show, though, so I don't know whether it was, like, a female demon in a male body or something like that. But it wasn't played for laughs or anything like that, seemed pretty low-key. I also didn't catch the character's name, so I can't look up her or the actor. Until I found out anything otherwise, though, I'm just gonna go with "one of the characters just happens to be a trans woman, neat".
They just explained it! I'm not sure whether it's good, bad or neutral from a lagerbeta perspective, though, so I'll spoil it just for the interested.
It turns out she's the sister of another character.
She's the Summer Fairy, and he's the Winter General. The protagonist met the Winter General first, and then the Summer Fairy.
After the Summer Fairy left the room, she asked, "Isn't she the man we just saw?" and was told that, no, they're siblings. He's male, she's female, and they're (in English, quote) "One body, two souls".
Also, so far, aside from the protagonist, General Winter and the Summer Fairy seem to be the only genuinely decent, kind people in this whole show. So there's that. They're lovely, hope they turn up more.

edit: Uuuugh General Winter and the Summer Fairy are so lovely and gorgeous and great.
(sorry, know it's off topic. I'mma stop now)

[Shadowscale]

So, anyone been up to anything fun lately?

[Mystic Muse]

So, anyone been up to anything fun lately?

I played a 4v4 Apocalypse scale game of Warhammer that lasted 5 hours and it only got a quarter through the start of round 2.

So, no. :smalltongue:

[Shadowscale]

I played a 4v4 Apocalypse scale game of Warhammer that lasted 5 hours and it only got a quarter through the start of round 2.

So, no. :smalltongue:

I love Warhammer, it at least sounds amusing :P

[Dire Moose]

So, anyone been up to anything fun lately?

My wife and I are about to celebrate 1 year of marriage together, and we're going to pay a visit to the Tucson Gem and Mineral Show next weekend. Been thinking about trying to start up a new Pathfinder campaign, but haven't got very far.

Also Shadowscale, I hope you've heard about my coming out as genderfluid/nonbinary and starting hormones to achieve a more androgynous look and feel; if not, you're hearing it now. Congratulations on 1 year of hormones yourself, by the way.

[JNAProductions]

My wife and I are about to celebrate 1 year of marriage together, and we're going to pay a visit to the Tucson Gem and Mineral Show next weekend. Been thinking about trying to start up a new Pathfinder campaign, but haven't got very far.

Also Shadowscale, I hope you've heard about my coming out as genderfluid/nonbinary and starting hormones to achieve a more androgynous look and feel; if not, you're hearing it now. Congratulations on 1 year of hormones yourself, by the way.

Congrats on a year of marriage! Have fun looking at shiny rocks!

[137beth]

I am trying to play Metroid to compensate, but for some reason it just isn't the same.

The idea to mentally switch pronouns is one I've heard before, but the guy was only using it for The Wind Waker. It's a lot less believable when you try it on something like Twilight Princess.

I just wish there was a gender option in the games. This would not have been an issue if they had just done that.

Also, it concerns me that apparently, absolutely nobody has had to deal with an issue like this before. Why is it only me?

I can sort of understand how you feel. For a long time I've used video games as escapism, but a lot of games have definitively straight main characters, which really pulls me out of it. I have many fond childhood memories of the Legend of Zelda, Mario, and Donkey Kong series, but when I play most of those games now, it feels a lot more uncomfortable. I can get out of it to some extent by playing Metroid or Kirby or even Animal Crossing instead, but those games aren't quite the same.

And congratulations on your anniversary!

[S@tanicoaldo]

So I have kind of vaguely danced around this one issue a lot because of how absurd it would sound, but I'm hitting a critical point in transition mentally and can't handle it anymore. There is one major thing tying me to being male that I just cannot get past. And it is tearing me apart.

I have been a huge fan of Legend of Zelda ever since my best friend got me Ocarina of Time for Christmas many years ago. I enjoyed the story, the gameplay, everything. But most of all, what I loved about this series was truly being able to see myself in the main character. Link and I do look very much alike, and the designers created the character as mainly a blank slate to fill in with your own personality. So I did. Link and I became more and more intertwined over time as I began seeing parallels to my life in the stories of the games, applying certain philosophical aspects of them to my own life, etc. I have even cosplaying Link at many conventions.

As I figured out more aspects of myself I simply integrated them into my version of Link. I realized I was probably mildly autistic? Well then Link must be mildly autistic too. After I came out as bisexual, I began viewing Link as bisexual as well.

This brings us to a rather obvious problem. I have now hit on the idea that I am transgender. And that I prefer being female over being male. And this is not something that I can treat like everything else. Applying that to Link is impossible as there is no "gender option" in the game. Link is clearly male. And to maintain the previously established connection, that would have to change. But it can't be changed. So therefore, I have no choice but to retain some identity as male, even if otherwise I'd rather not.

This must seem really silly to anyone reading this. After all, it's just a video game, right? And you can still be female and play a male character, right? Well, I tried that. Attempting to play while identifying and presenting female gave me such a sense of pain that I could feel it physically. It was as if something had been physically severed. Subsequent attempts led to me having to fight so hard to retain a sense of female identity that any enjoyment of the game was lost, and a sense of every bit of joy in it being gone, the experience being dead, and me just going through the motions. It seems it just isn't possible to have that kind of enjoyment as female because the connection is lost.

I have been dealing with the loss now by just not playing any of the games, but I look back and really wish I could play them, and feeling sad that I can't. Especially since life as female feels more vibrant, more exciting, and more joyful than life as male. There just is no way to integrate this one thing I really love into my identity as female, and it's driving me insane. I have been trying to think of any solution to this problem, even just find someone, anyone else who has gone through something similar, but no matter what I look for, it seems to me that nobody has ever had to deal with anything even remotely like this, ever.

So that's it. That's the one thing keeping me from jumping into transition. As stupid and silly as it may sound, it is very real and very frustrating to me. And I'm finally posting it here now because I'm getting to a point where I can't keep avoiding it anymore. Please let me know if there is anything that can be done or any way to deal with this.

A few other points:

Don't mention Linkle. She was a side character from one game that isn't even part of the series canon, and is thus irrelevant.

Don't point out that Link is androgynous. Androgynous and female are different things.

Which version or edition of Zelda are you playing?

[Dire Moose]

Which version or edition of Zelda are you playing?

Mostly been doing Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Twilight Princess, and Skyward Sword.

[AuthorGirl]

So, anyone been up to anything fun lately?

I came out as bi to my parents!!! Kinda forgot to mention it to y'all. It wasn't exactly fun, but I feel better now that it's done with, so . . . I've been having more fun since then.

(They were fine. Grandma doesn't know, which is a relief.)

[S@tanicoaldo]

Mostly been doing Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Twilight Princess, and Skyward Sword.

Well maybe this will cheer you up, in the new Zelda Link can dress any way he likes.

He even has a Gerudo outfit.
https://thumbs.mic.com/NDkxMjBkMTM0MSMvaDFNc0NiTWxDZVZlaFh3WVYyWlRkTmpOXz VRPS8xNDh4NzoxMTMyeDcxMy9maXQtaW4vNzYweDAvZmlsdGVy czpxdWFsaXR5KDcwKTpub191cHNjYWxlKCk6Zm9ybWF0KGpwZW cpL2h0dHA6Ly9zMy5hbWF6b25hd3MuY29tL3BvbGljeW1pYy1p bWFnZXMva2F4OGpudHFmcnVjdGpnaDZvdzVsajRyYXpvZ3Q4Nm 5vdHpjbTllYnhqZzJzY3hzOXl1bTc5cGVjM3ZyeGtlbS5qcGc. jpg

And the Gerudo are an all famale race, so basically he is dressing as a woman. Will that help?

[Shadowscale]

My wife and I are about to celebrate 1 year of marriage together, and we're going to pay a visit to the Tucson Gem and Mineral Show next weekend. Been thinking about trying to start up a new Pathfinder campaign, but haven't got very far.

Also Shadowscale, I hope you've heard about my coming out as genderfluid/nonbinary and starting hormones to achieve a more androgynous look and feel; if not, you're hearing it now. Congratulations on 1 year of hormones yourself, by the way.
I'm glad to hear that, I identify asc agendered myself. Trans feminine though. Finally starting to look different methinks.
https://i.imgur.com/JrNRlie.jpg

[137beth]

I came out as bi to my parents!!! Kinda forgot to mention it to y'all. It wasn't exactly fun, but I feel better now that it's done with, so . . . I've been having more fun since then.

(They were fine. Grandma doesn't know, which is a relief.)

Congratulations!

[Malozing]

I came out as bi to my parents!!! Kinda forgot to mention it to y'all. It wasn't exactly fun, but I feel better now that it's done with, so . . . I've been having more fun since then.

(They were fine. Grandma doesn't know, which is a relief.)

Hey! Congrats! Keep being you, and I hope you continue to have more fun.

[AuthorGirl]

Congratulations!


Hey! Congrats! Keep being you, and I hope you continue to have more fun.

Thank you guys! Hmm, there's not a heart emoji on this forum . . . :smallbiggrin:

[JNAProductions]

Just find a picture!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Heart_anterior_exterior_view.jpg/250px-Heart_anterior_exterior_view.jpg

[Malozing]

Just find a picture!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Heart_anterior_exterior_view.jpg/250px-Heart_anterior_exterior_view.jpg

Or <3

That wouldn't be the heart image I would have chosen, but what floats your boat.

[Razade]

I was...going to write this big long thing in regards to these two quotes but I think I can sum them up fairly quickly.


No good. Nothing works.

I wanted to play Zelda today, but I couldn't because I was too afraid of losing my female identity in it and feeling miserable again. And yet when I think about it, I would very much prefer playing as a female version of Link in those games if there was a choice. This would suggest I do actually identify more as female.

However, playing the games now still hurts me due to the disconnect between myself and Link. I feel no joy in playing the game as female due to the painful disconnect between myself and the character.

I feel like I can't make any progress unless Nintendo goes back .and adds a gender option to be female.


I can sort of understand how you feel. For a long time I've used video games as escapism, but a lot of games have definitively straight main characters, which really pulls me out of it. I have many fond childhood memories of the Legend of Zelda, Mario, and Donkey Kong series, but when I play most of those games now, it feels a lot more uncomfortable. I can get out of it to some extent by playing Metroid or Kirby or even Animal Crossing instead, but those games aren't quite the same.

And congratulations on your anniversary!

Media doesn't own your sexuality. Media doesn't own your gender. You do.

You give media the power to influence and make yourself uncomfortable. If you want to enjoy Zelda or Donkey Kong or Mario...enjoy them for enjoyment. So what if Link's a dude or Donkey Kong is a giant poo flinging monkey. It's a game. Not only is it a game but it's a game not even making a statement on sex or gender or anything of that nature. Hell, Nintendo (since we're talking about Nintento games) is so scrubbed clean of anything that might passably be offensive to anyone ever that they've become a sad, stale parody of themselves so resistant and terrified of change that they crank out the same game by rote.

Link being a dude saying nothing about your gender, nothing about your sexuality, nothing about...anything about you. Even on a level of vain, petty escapism. They're so gender neutral as to be devoid of character whatsoever. Designed to be, in fact, so that anyone and everyone can slot in and be at home. But even if they weren't it doesn't matter. Marcus Fenix of Gears of War fame is as MAN as you get...but he's just a bunch of ones and zeroes. Marcus Fenix owns your sexuality and gender as much as the paint on the wall does and says about as much about it as whatever you're sitting on when you play it.

One could simply sum this all up as "stop cramming sex and slamming gender politics into a place that it neither belongs nor exists in in the first place" but that might be too...pithy. So I'll end (almost) on this note instead. Do what you enjoy. If playing Zelda is something you enjoy, keep on doing it and Link's non-existent genitals be damned. Him being a dude doesn't change the fact that you're a woman (or...whatever you're going with 137ben...honestly don't know)

Unless of course the only way for you to enjoy media is if it comports directly with your sexuality and ethics and gender and whatnot. If that's the case...whew...can't even willingly tread there.

[Astrella]

It does get easier over time I find; earlier on in my transition I found it harder to identify with male characters / had a bit of a repulsion-y thing going on cause I didn't want to invalidate myself / was worried it would / etc... but it's been better and it's been presenting less mental dissonance these days.

[Dire Moose]

I'm glad to hear that, I identify asc agendered myself. Trans feminine though. Finally starting to look different methinks.
https://i.imgur.com/JrNRlie.jpg

Am I actually seeing a bit of a smile there? ;)

You never used to smile in pictures before... must be a good sign.

Anyway, glad things are going well for you. If you're ever in Phoenix again, please let us know. We'd love to hang out sometime.

[Lettuce]

So I have kind of vaguely danced around this one issue a lot because of how absurd it would sound, but I'm hitting a critical point in transition mentally and can't handle it anymore. There is one major thing tying me to being male that I just cannot get past. And it is tearing me apart.

I have been a huge fan of Legend of Zelda ever since my best friend got me Ocarina of Time for Christmas many years ago. I enjoyed the story, the gameplay, everything. But most of all, what I loved about this series was truly being able to see myself in the main character. Link and I do look very much alike, and the designers created the character as mainly a blank slate to fill in with your own personality. So I did. Link and I became more and more intertwined over time as I began seeing parallels to my life in the stories of the games, applying certain philosophical aspects of them to my own life, etc. I have even cosplaying Link at many conventions.

As I figured out more aspects of myself I simply integrated them into my version of Link. I realized I was probably mildly autistic? Well then Link must be mildly autistic too. After I came out as bisexual, I began viewing Link as bisexual as well.

This brings us to a rather obvious problem. I have now hit on the idea that I am transgender. And that I prefer being female over being male. And this is not something that I can treat like everything else. Applying that to Link is impossible as there is no "gender option" in the game. Link is clearly male. And to maintain the previously established connection, that would have to change. But it can't be changed. So therefore, I have no choice but to retain some identity as male, even if otherwise I'd rather not.

This must seem really silly to anyone reading this. After all, it's just a video game, right? And you can still be female and play a male character, right? Well, I tried that. Attempting to play while identifying and presenting female gave me such a sense of pain that I could feel it physically. It was as if something had been physically severed. Subsequent attempts led to me having to fight so hard to retain a sense of female identity that any enjoyment of the game was lost, and a sense of every bit of joy in it being gone, the experience being dead, and me just going through the motions. It seems it just isn't possible to have that kind of enjoyment as female because the connection is lost.

I have been dealing with the loss now by just not playing any of the games, but I look back and really wish I could play them, and feeling sad that I can't. Especially since life as female feels more vibrant, more exciting, and more joyful than life as male. There just is no way to integrate this one thing I really love into my identity as female, and it's driving me insane. I have been trying to think of any solution to this problem, even just find someone, anyone else who has gone through something similar, but no matter what I look for, it seems to me that nobody has ever had to deal with anything even remotely like this, ever.

So that's it. That's the one thing keeping me from jumping into transition. As stupid and silly as it may sound, it is very real and very frustrating to me. And I'm finally posting it here now because I'm getting to a point where I can't keep avoiding it anymore. Please let me know if there is anything that can be done or any way to deal with this.

A few other points:

Don't mention Linkle. She was a side character from one game that isn't even part of the series canon, and is thus irrelevant.

Don't point out that Link is androgynous. Androgynous and female are different things.


For whatever it's worth, you're not alone.

This may sound weird coming from a cis woman, but I actually really relate to a good bit of what you wrote.

I've always told others that I'm "a fan of the Zelda series", but across all of the games and all of the characters, it's always been Link who I've most related to, far more than any other character in the series. (Certainly way more than any iteration of Zelda! Or even girls who have gotten more dialogue, like Midna.) I've been playing the series since I was roughly five or six years old. When I was 11 and OoT came out, I was the first in line for the midnight release. I actually ordered Majora's Mask from Japan before it was released overseas (but didn't manage to find my way around the region lock before it released in America). I've dressed as Link for Halloween. I made a replica of the Master Sword. I got into archery (basically entirely because I was inspired by Link's example and wanted to be more like him). I learned how to write Hylian script (both OoT/MM Hylian and TP Hylian-- the latter in which I've written love letters to my now-husband, just in case I don't have enough geek cred yet :smalltongue:).

But more than that, I immersed myself in Link's stories. The adventures he's had, the trials he's overcome, the lives he's lived. And I made up my own unwritten stories interacting with various NPCs, too. It probably does sound a little crazy, but some of the things he went through (particularly in Majora's Mask) were philosophically analogous to things that I was going through in my own life... and by not just watching him handle those things-- but playing the game and being the one TO handle things, as him-- helped give me a path, a mindset to cope with some really tough stuff in my own life. I saw myself in him. His struggles were my struggles, and somehow through that connection, mine were also his. We were one and the same.

I feel like that kind of deep connection to a character is something that a lot of people struggle to understand. I remember back in high school, one of my cousins, upon learning how 'into Zelda' I was and how important Link was to me, made a sketch of Link hugging me with a little heart. I remember telling her that it was really cute, but it's not so much that I'm Link's "fan", or that I have a crush on him or something. I AM Link. And I remember her being baffled, and actually outright protesting to me, "but Link's a guy!" And so now, I'm going to tell you the same thing that I told her:

Link is a hero.

Link shouldn't be defined by his body any more than any of us should. He should be defined by who he is-- by his actions and his courage in the face of darkness. It doesn't matter if some (or at this moment, potentially all) iterations of Link that Nintendo has made were AMAB-- that's not the sum of his person. Maybe it's just been my own reading, but I've never gotten the feeling that being male is particularly important to Link himself. If you wrote a long list of descriptors about Link, "being AMAB" is pretty far down the list. Heck, for physical descriptors I feel like "being left handed" (usually) or "wearing green" (usually) is higher up the list than what he has under his tunic. I feel like if you were to ask a lot of people who Link is, they'd say something like "great swordsman" or "musically talented" or "versatile and a great problem-solver" or "always has time to help others"-- or simply, "he is a hero".

I identify with Link because he is Link. Now, we do have some other, slightly more superficial things in common-- I know how to use a bow and ride a horse, and I like to think I'm not a terrible musician either. But do I have everything in common with him? Heck no! I have dark hair, I'm not left-handed, I know very little about how to use a sword, and I'm very much a woman. But none of that matters. I identify with his character. I was ostracized for "not belonging" as a kid; I lost my parents; I'd take great risks and move heaven and earth to help those I love. I live my life courageously. The Spirit of the Hero is in me-- and it is in you, too.

So don't let a few voice clips and pronouns in other peoples' dialogue stand in the way of your special connection to something you love. Don't let it destroy your past happy memories, and don't let it take away all of the future possibilities you'll have. (And hey, if it helps, apparently actually four of Link's voice actors (http://www.behindthevoiceactors.com/characters/Legend-of-Zelda/Link/) over the years have been female anyway (out of nine total at a quick glance).) It's not the first time other characters have been wrong about who someone is, anyway-- think about the masks Link wears in MM. He doesn't actually completely become Mikau or Darmani (or the Deku Butler's son)-- he is still Link, the hero, taking their forms and taking up their causes so he can heal their very souls. Maybe someday Nintendo will actually have the option for a girl avatar, which for the record I'd also really like-- but no matter what, Link and I will continue saving Hyrule and leading our courage to one another. We'll fight through the darkness together as one, just as we always have.

So if you identify with his valor, his determination, his humility, his resourcefulness, his desire to help others, or anything and everything else about him, don't let anyone or anything-- not even your own doubts-- hold you back. Speaking as a cis girl: Identifying with Link does not make you any less feminine or any more masculine. It makes you a person who has feelings, experiences, worldviews, and/or reactions similar to another. It makes you human.

Hugs (if you want them) from another "Link".

[Dire Moose]

For whatever it's worth, you're not alone.

This may sound weird coming from a cis woman, but I actually really relate to a good bit of what you wrote.

I've always told others that I'm "a fan of the Zelda series", but across all of the games and all of the characters, it's always been Link who I've most related to, far more than any other character in the series. (Certainly way more than any iteration of Zelda! Or even girls who have gotten more dialogue, like Midna.) I've been playing the series since I was roughly five or six years old. When I was 11 and OoT came out, I was the first in line for the midnight release. I actually ordered Majora's Mask from Japan before it was released overseas (but didn't manage to find my way around the region lock before it released in America). I've dressed as Link for Halloween. I made a replica of the Master Sword. I got into archery (basically entirely because I was inspired by Link's example and wanted to be more like him). I learned how to write Hylian script (both OoT/MM Hylian and TP Hylian-- the latter in which I've written love letters to my now-husband, just in case I don't have enough geek cred yet :smalltongue:).

But more than that, I immersed myself in Link's stories. The adventures he's had, the trials he's overcome, the lives he's lived. And I made up my own unwritten stories interacting with various NPCs, too. It probably does sound a little crazy, but some of the things he went through (particularly in Majora's Mask) were philosophically analogous to things that I was going through in my own life... and by not just watching him handle those things-- but playing the game and being the one TO handle things, as him-- helped give me a path, a mindset to cope with some really tough stuff in my own life. I saw myself in him. His struggles were my struggles, and somehow through that connection, mine were also his. We were one and the same.

I feel like that kind of deep connection to a character is something that a lot of people struggle to understand. I remember back in high school, one of my cousins, upon learning how 'into Zelda' I was and how important Link was to me, made a sketch of Link hugging me with a little heart. I remember telling her that it was really cute, but it's not so much that I'm Link's "fan", or that I have a crush on him or something. I AM Link. And I remember her being baffled, and actually outright protesting to me, "but Link's a guy!" And so now, I'm going to tell you the same thing that I told her:

Link is a hero.

Link shouldn't be defined by his body any more than any of us should. He should be defined by who he is-- by his actions and his courage in the face of darkness. It doesn't matter if some (or at this moment, potentially all) iterations of Link that Nintendo has made were AMAB-- that's not the sum of his person. Maybe it's just been my own reading, but I've never gotten the feeling that being male is particularly important to Link himself. If you wrote a long list of descriptors about Link, "being AMAB" is pretty far down the list. Heck, for physical descriptors I feel like "being left handed" (usually) or "wearing green" (usually) is higher up the list than what he has under his tunic. I feel like if you were to ask a lot of people who Link is, they'd say something like "great swordsman" or "musically talented" or "versatile and a great problem-solver" or "always has time to help others"-- or simply, "he is a hero".

I identify with Link because he is Link. Now, we do have some other, slightly more superficial things in common-- I know how to use a bow and ride a horse, and I like to think I'm not a terrible musician either. But do I have everything in common with him? Heck no! I have dark hair, I'm not left-handed, I know very little about how to use a sword, and I'm very much a woman. But none of that matters. I identify with his character. I was ostracized for "not belonging" as a kid; I lost my parents; I'd take great risks and move heaven and earth to help those I love. I live my life courageously. The Spirit of the Hero is in me-- and it is in you, too.

So don't let a few voice clips and pronouns in other peoples' dialogue stand in the way of your special connection to something you love. Don't let it destroy your past happy memories, and don't let it take away all of the future possibilities you'll have. (And hey, if it helps, apparently actually four of Link's voice actors (http://www.behindthevoiceactors.com/characters/Legend-of-Zelda/Link/) over the years have been female anyway (out of nine total at a quick glance).) It's not the first time other characters have been wrong about who someone is, anyway-- think about the masks Link wears in MM. He doesn't actually completely become Mikau or Darmani (or the Deku Butler's son)-- he is still Link, the hero, taking their forms and taking up their causes so he can heal their very souls. Maybe someday Nintendo will actually have the option for a girl avatar, which for the record I'd also really like-- but no matter what, Link and I will continue saving Hyrule and leading our courage to one another. We'll fight through the darkness together as one, just as we always have.

So if you identify with his valor, his determination, his humility, his resourcefulness, his desire to help others, or anything and everything else about him, don't let anyone or anything-- not even your own doubts-- hold you back. Speaking as a cis girl: Identifying with Link does not make you any less feminine or any more masculine. It makes you a person who has feelings, experiences, worldviews, and/or reactions similar to another. It makes you human.

Hugs (if you want them) from another "Link".
Thanks for the hugs. At the moment, I've been taking this as an example of my male side needing to express itself. As time goes on, I may end up getting more comfortable doing this as female, or so may find that only my male half is into it and thus only do it on my "boy days." Regardless it is good to know that it's fine for a girl to see herself that way too.

[ve4grm]

Thanks for the hugs. At the moment, I've been taking this as an example of my male side needing to express itself. As time goes on, I may end up getting more comfortable doing this as female, or so may find that only my male half is into it and thus only do it on my "boy days." Regardless it is good to know that it's fine for a girl to see herself that way too.

This is a good attitude towards it.

It may mean even less from a cis male, but like Lettuce identifies with Link, many of the game and show characters I identify with most are female. Gender is, IMO, the least important factor for identifying with a character. Personality, backstory, talents, and actions all lead me to identify stronger with someone than looks or gender ever could.

Obviously it's easier for me to say that, as most protagonists are still male and representation is still very important to strive for, but it definitely is true for me. And gender may be more important for you, which is fine.

But just like you don't necessarily need to be a left-handed elf to identify with Link, hopefully you can learn to at least be comfortable with the character when your gender doesn't match as well, even if the identification isn't there on those days..

All the best!

[Shadowscale]

Am I actually seeing a bit of a smile there? ;)

You never used to smile in pictures before... must be a good sign.

Anyway, glad things are going well for you. If you're ever in Phoenix again, please let us know. We'd love to hang out sometime.

I'll take ya up on that. No longer have any family out there, well I do, but they don't want to associate with lil ol me.
Yeah I taught myself how to smile, I think looking closer to how I wanted helped.

[Malozing]

I'll take ya up on that. No longer have any family out there, well I do, but they don't want to associate with lil ol me.
Yeah I taught myself how to smile, I think looking closer to how I wanted helped.

It helps tremendously when your idea of yourself match the reflection in the mirror. I am sorry that your blood relations can't see what they are missing out on, but I think being away from people who will tear you down because you don't fit their idea of you is another reason you can smile now.

Here's to many more reasons for you to smile and many more friends who accept you for you.

[Dire Moose]

Sigh.

I don't know how to handle this whole genderfluid thing. I try presenting female because I'm curious about being a girl, kind of like it, do it more and have fun with it, but every time I do it I start to build up this anxious undercurrent of "no, this isn't right..." usually tied to the male characters and roles I've historically identified with, which just keeps building until I can't handle it and I crash back to being male again. This lasts for a while until I get curious about being a girl again and the cycle just repeats itself.

How can I feel comfortable about being both genders, and how can I reassure both sides of myself that they won't be erased by the other? It just feels like I'm being blown around in a tornado right now.

[Malozing]

Sigh.

I don't know how to handle this whole genderfluid thing. I try presenting female because I'm curious about being a girl, kind of like it, do it more and have fun with it, but every time I do it I start to build up this anxious undercurrent of "no, this isn't right..." usually tied to the male characters and roles I've historically identified with, which just keeps building until I can't handle it and I crash back to being male again. This lasts for a while until I get curious about being a girl again and the cycle just repeats itself.

How can I feel comfortable about being both genders, and how can I reassure both sides of myself that they won't be erased by the other? It just feels like I'm being blown around in a tornado right now.

Sadly becoming comfortable as gender fluid takes both time, an excellent support network, and trail and error.

I spent most of my years in high school as “one of the guys.” I spent time working in a comic shop as the only women. I often had to put customers in their place for thinking girls aren't knowledgeable about comics. I sometimes wear a binder. I had to defend my identity to some people, but those who continued badgering me to choose a gender and what gender I liked, I eventual learned to drop from my life. That took time and a lot of sessions with my therapist.

I did a ton of my gender exploration through DnD and other tabletop RPGs. (My high school DnD group often mixed which pronouns I used with my characters' pronouns.) If a new gaming group I join gives me any shade about "not playing my gender," I dropped to find a group that was supportive. Thankfully most games I join now have at least one member of my support network.

Everyone is a little different. What I have done may help you or it may not. If you need someone to listen or a shoulder to lean on, feel free to PM me.

[Kesnit]

Media doesn't own your sexuality. Media doesn't own your gender. You do.

You give media the power to influence and make yourself uncomfortable. If you want to enjoy Zelda or Donkey Kong or Mario...enjoy them for enjoyment. So what if Link's a dude or Donkey Kong is a giant poo flinging monkey. It's a game. Not only is it a game but it's a game not even making a statement on sex or gender or anything of that nature.

Link being a dude saying nothing about your gender, nothing about your sexuality, nothing about...anything about you. Even on a level of vain, petty escapism. They're so gender neutral as to be devoid of character whatsoever. Designed to be, in fact, so that anyone and everyone can slot in and be at home. But even if they weren't it doesn't matter. Marcus Fenix of Gears of War fame is as MAN as you get...but he's just a bunch of ones and zeroes. Marcus Fenix owns your sexuality and gender as much as the paint on the wall does and says about as much about it as whatever you're sitting on when you play it.


Gender is, IMO, the least important factor for identifying with a character. Personality, backstory, talents, and actions all lead me to identify stronger with someone than looks or gender ever could.

I agree with these two statements.

My favorite genre are RPGs. I have horrible new-class-itis in a lot of games where you can build your own PC. (I currently have 6 active playthroughs of Skyrim...) In every game where you can pick your PCs gender, I have a mix of male and female characters. I do it because when I set out to make a character, I figure out who the person is and how I see that person in my mind. Sometimes the person is male; sometimes female. (I admit, I have a habit of making my tough melee characters female.) The gender does not affect how I see or play the character. It's a character on a screen - the way I interact with the game world.


A few amusing updates from my life...

1) My parents moved to the southern US a few years ago, but still travel back to see the rest of the family for Christmas. This past Christmas, they realized they would pass very close to where I live now and wanted to meet me for dinner. I agreed, but then realized I would have to shave. I've worn facial hair for years, as I think I have a baby face when I am clean-shaven. But in the interest in family peace, off came the beard. But in good news, it grew back quickly!


2) I am a criminal defense attorney in a conservative city. Earlier this week, a client came to meet with me. Also with her was another woman and a pre-teen girl. The girl sat in the waiting room, and the two women came back to my office. I'm used to family members coming to client meetings, so having an extra person didn't make me think twice. When the second woman was not introduced with her relationship to my client (i.e. "this is my sister"), I began to suspect these two were married. (Their interactions with each other were also a clue.) A while into the meeting, my client mentions in passing that the other woman is her wife. I didn't say anything, just gave a quick nod and went on with the conversation. A few minutes later, my client said "I did mention that she is my wife, right?" I had my head down and was writing, so just said "yes, you did" without looking up.

In hindsight, I wonder if they were trying to gauge my reaction to knowing their relationship. Wanting to make sure I wasn't going to wig out on representing my client or something. (I'm court appointed. I can't wig out, even if I wanted to!)

[ArlEammon]

Where I live in Arizona is a HORRIBLE place to be gay or bi or whatever. Almost no where to go to meet.

[Shadowscale]

going to just cross post this from the questions thread:
Anyone else here agendered? Since I still present trans feminine and am on HRT I don't consider myself Non binary, does that make sense?

[Dire Moose]

I actually know some people who were AMAB, transitioned on HRT, and live full time as women, who also identify as nonbinary for different reasons. I also know a couple of trans masculine AFAB people who are the same way. I tend to use nonbinary as kind of an umbrella term that covers anyone who doesn't strictly identify as male or female, which could include things like agender and genderfluid.

ArlEammon: Arizona is hardly devoid of LGBT people; you just need to know where to look. Might want to check out Phoenix Pride around the beginning of April; there are all kinds of different LGBT organizations that show up for that and you might find something that suits you there. In the meantime I 'm part of a group of LGBT gamers here that might work for you; look up "Phoenix Gaymers" if you're interested.

[Shadowscale]

last 3 posters are from Arizona :O

[Dire Moose]

last 3 posters are from Arizona :O

Didn't you move to Colorado though?

[137beth]

Oops, looks like I'm breaking the Arizona trend!

[Dire Moose]

And ArlEammon thinks there aren't a lot of LGBT people in this state...

Speaking of which, there are two gay bars and a lesbian bar on 7th Avenue between Camelback and Bethany Home, plus a third gay bar on 19th and Bethany Home.

Is there something up with the water supply here?

[Shadowscale]

Didn't you move to Colorado though?

Yeah but my profile says otherwise. I'm in Kansas these days actually.

[Dire Moose]

Yeah but my profile says otherwise. I'm in Kansas these days actually.

Kansas? What's so great about flat boring corn-and-cows land?

[Shadowscale]

Kansas? What's so great about flat boring corn-and-cows land?

Not a whole lot, I'm right by Kansas City though surprisingly LGBT friendly. Long story.

[Mystic Muse]

Why move to the flat boring land of corn, if I may ask?

That's Indiana that you're thinking of. :smalltongue:

[Dire Moose]

Or eastern South Dakota. Or Nebraska. Or... we'll, a lot of places, really.

[Lycunadari]

going to just cross post this from the questions thread:
Anyone else here agendered? Since I still present trans feminine and am on HRT I don't consider myself Non binary, does that make sense?

I'm only occasionally agender, but as Dire Moose already said, nonbinary is an umbrella term that covers everyone who is not 100% male or female, regardless if they transition or not. There are plenty of nonbinary people who present mostly or fully binary and/or transition. So if you want to call yourself nonbinary, you absolutely can (though you don't have to, of course).

[Jormengand]

Anyone else here agendered?

Um... sometimes?

(But then I guess I'm sometimes bigender and sometimes trans and sometimes cis and... look, genderfluidity is weird. :smalltongue:)

[Shadowscale]

Everyone here seems only sometimes gendered and not always agendered, interesting.

[137beth]

That's Indiana that you're thinking of. :smalltongue:

I thought Iowa was the land of flat corn fields?

[CWater]

Everyone here seems only sometimes gendered and not always agendered, interesting.

I'm agendered, all the time. Don't really get your other question, you're you. How you're presenting doesn't affect that.

Though who you are usually affects how you present, obviously.

[137beth]

I've gone back and forth on whether I consider myself agendered. I'm not genderfluid though, I think my gender identity just changes over a long period of time.

[The Extinguisher]

im super frustrated with how health care treats trans people its awful

im looking to move back to my home city pretty soon, and ive been going down the informed consent route for hrt over here which is awesome. but that doesnt exist where im moving to, and you gotta get "diagnosed" and referred around constantly and wait times are atrocious. im super worried that im going to have an extended period of time where im not on hormones and its going to destroy what little progress ive made so far and just kick my dysphoria into overdrive.

im gonna talk to my doctor when i see her next about if theres any way to like skip all that cause im already on the medication but if theres not im really considering just self medicating cause i cant deal with all that gatekeeping crap

and its seriously making me reconsider moving which i dont want to do cause i aside from a good doctor i actually just hate it here

[Dire Moose]

Some pictures of my wife and me (I'm the blonde one) seeing the fossils at the Tucson Gem and Mineral Show. I'm a little over 2 months on estrogen at this point.


https://i.imgur.com/2USITxJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1xc9lH6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/BNBKew0.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/X58OxlL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/mCbhJkb.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/QCDHrrg.jpg

[Malozing]

Extinguisher- I hope your doctor can help you skip the waiting game. Hopefully, with a medical history file, you can either skip most or all of the diagnosing step. I hope that's the case, and your move goes well.

Dire- It looks like you had fun!

[Astrella]

Bluh, a news reporter came out as trans and the media has been playing it up a lot and so there's been tons of bigotted reactions out there and it's been driving me down a bit. :?


im super frustrated with how health care treats trans people its awful

im looking to move back to my home city pretty soon, and ive been going down the informed consent route for hrt over here which is awesome. but that doesnt exist where im moving to, and you gotta get "diagnosed" and referred around constantly and wait times are atrocious. im super worried that im going to have an extended period of time where im not on hormones and its going to destroy what little progress ive made so far and just kick my dysphoria into overdrive.

im gonna talk to my doctor when i see her next about if theres any way to like skip all that cause im already on the medication but if theres not im really considering just self medicating cause i cant deal with all that gatekeeping crap

and its seriously making me reconsider moving which i dont want to do cause i aside from a good doctor i actually just hate it here

No way for your doctor to phone in prescriptions to your new pharmacy or such? I hope you find a solution. (It always baffles me that people seem to find like, trans people being without meds not a problem even in the medical sector. :/ )

[Lycunadari]

*offers hugs to Lena, Extinguisher and anyone else who might want to need them*

---

Is anyone here interested in some queer book recommendations? I've started to read both more books where being queer is important to the story/plot, and where some of the characters just happen to be queer while having adventures/living their life/etc (there are actually quite a lot out there if you know where to look) so I could write a bit about what I've read so far? (I might also be able to give specific recommendations if someone wants to read something with a specific "flavour" of queer.)

[Comrade]

I'm always up for recommendations on sci-fi/fantasy featuring LGBT characters.

[Lycunadari]

I'm always up for recommendations on sci-fi/fantasy featuring LGBT characters.

Then you are in luck because I also read primarily fantasy and SF. :smallsmile: I'm working on a list, but it's taking a bit longer than planned because I want to include a bit of a summary and reasons why I like a book/who else might like it so it's not just a bunch of titles.

[AuthorGirl]

Then you are in luck because I also read primarily fantasy and SF. :smallsmile: I'm working on a list, but it's taking a bit longer than planned because I want to include a bit of a summary and reasons why I like a book/who else might like it so it's not just a bunch of titles.

Excited now :smallsmile:

[Mariah]

Your coming along nicely. I remember some of the pics Jamie shared with me from before you started transition and you have come a nice ways since then.


I'm glad to hear that, I identify asc agendered myself. Trans feminine though. Finally starting to look different methinks.
https://i.imgur.com/JrNRlie.jpg

[Lycunadari]

Here it is! I kept the summaries relatively short because that's easy enough to look up (I've added links to goodreads for all books so you can easily look up the official descriptions). I've included what kind of queer characters a book has, other minority representation and if or how much homophobia/transphobia/etc there is (because sometimes people just don't want to read about the same struggles they face all day and just want queer characters to be allowed to be queer.) I've also added some common trigger warnings, but if you want to know something more specific, feel free to ask! :smallsmile:



The Second Mango (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32179385-the-second-mango) by Shira Glassman (Fantasy/Romance)
Young lesbian queen Shulamit is looking for a girlfriend with the help of her bodyguard Rivka (who is a woman pretending to be a man) and the bodyguard’s shapeshifting dragon/horse, when they learn about a sorcerer who is turning women into stone and decide to rescue them.
This book is the first of the Mangoverse books (there are three others and one short story collection) and I really liked all of them. While the characters’ queerness is obviously important to the plot (especially in book one and two), the plot isn’t just about that and the characters also have adventures that have nothing to with their orientation (in book three they get to solve a crime). These books are very fluffy, not overly serious in tone (but also not too silly), with happy endings for all the queer characters. Ideal when you just want to read something lighthearted. Most of the characters are Jewish and later books also have bi and trans characters. There is some homophobia in the setting, esp. in book two, but for the most part the queer characters don’t have to suffer for being queer.
Shira has also written a bunch of other books which I’ve heard are very good, but I haven’t read them.

To Stand In The Light (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23966086-to-stand-in-the-light?ac=1&from_search=true) by Kayla Bashe (Fantasy/Romance)
Shadow, a nonbinary transfem superhero with a tragic past saves the life of Bean, another young superhero and they quickly become friends. While Bean goes to superhero school, Shadow is away on adventures, and when they come back after a few years, they both have developed feelings for each other, but are too insecure and too scared they are not good enough for each other to admit it. And then a supervillain shows up…
This book deals with some quite heavy themes like different kinds of trauma, mental illness and disability, but it’s never grim and I actually count it as another “feel-good” book, because it also has the different characters be wonderfully supportive of each other. The character interactions are definitely the focus of this book, the superhero part is mostly just a background for them. Besides queer main characters, this book also has a lot of other minority representation- Shadow has PTSD and chronic pain, Bean has ADHD and is a Korean transracial adoptee, and there are also otherwise disabled characters, characters if colour, one Jewish character and one DID system (there were probably more, but those are the ones I remember). IIRC, there is no homophobia in the setting and only one minor case of transphobia. Tbh, this book isn’t actually all that great from a purely literary point but for me the characters and themes more than made up for it.

Pantomime (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29502206-pantomime?from_search=true) by Laura Lam (Fantasy)
Gene is intersex and runs away from home when his parents want to force him to have surgery to make him “a normal girl”. He joins a circus disguised as a boy and calls himself Micah. While he’s getting used to his new life, he finds out that the circus has some bad secrets and also starts to have strange visions.
This book is the first in a fantastic trilogy and my summary there doesn’t do it justice at all. Pantomime starts out with relatively few magical elements, but book two and three have more of those. This trilogy is more plot driven than my first two recommendations, and it’s probably also the closest to your typical fantasy novels.
Micah is intersex and bigender, one of the other main characters is a gay man and there was also a minor trans women character. Micah’s has to deal with intersexism, mostly in book one, but otherwise the characters don’t suffer for being queer. TW for domestic violence.
This is easily one of the best books I’ve read lately, so go read it!

Aristotle And Dante Discover The Secrets of The Universe (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12000020-aristotle-and-dante-discover-the-secrets-of-the-universe?ac=1&from_search=true) by Benjamin Sáenz (YA)
Ari and Dante are two very different teens who build an unlikely friendship that very slowly develops into romance. (I realise that this probably counts as a spoiler, but this book wouldn’t be on this list without that, so you would be able to guess it anyway.)
This is a beautifully written book, almost poetic. It doesn’t really have an overarching plot, it just tells us about the lives of these two boys and everything that includes. It’s not a romance book, and while romance does happen, it’s actually just a very small part of the book. I would have liked a bit more focus on the romantic relationship - the way it is the ending felt a bit incomplete to me, but there’s a sequel coming out, so hopefully that will help.
Both Ari and Dante are Mexican-American. TW for violent homophobia and one very bad accident.

The Long Way To A Small, Angry Planet (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22733729-the-long-way-to-a-small-angry-planet?ac=1&from_search=true) by Becky Chambers (Sci-fi)
A bunch of humans and aliens have adventures in space.
This is another fantastic book, that is both very well written and the kind of book that makes you feel good while reading it (when it doesn’t make you cry). It’s not as fluffy as some of the other books on this list, but while bad things happen it is, ultimately, still optimistic and never grim. The cast is a very diverse mix of humans and aliens, including aliens with a nonbinary gender, unusual family structures disabled characters. There is a f/f romance happening, but it’s only a subplot, so if you’re reading it only for the queerness you might be disappointed but this book is good enough it might even be worth reading if everyone was straight. ;)

Capricious: Gender Diverse Pronouns Edition (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/37901361-capricious) - A.C.Buchanan (Editor, lots of different authors) (Sci-Fi/Fantasy)
This is a short story anthology in which all stories feature a major character who uses gender neutral pronouns, including singular they but also several different others like ze/hir, per/pers, e/eir etc. Some of the stories have pronouns/gender as a topic (like “Sandals full of Rainwater” by AE Prevost where a person from a culture that doesn’t have gender moves to a culture that has three genders and pronouns that change depending on both the speaker’s and the other person’s gender, or “Ad Astra Per Aspera" by Nino Cipri, in which the protagonist is pretty sure their gender “left me for someone else”.) while others are typical SFF short stories which just happen to have a nonbinary protagonist.
A few of the stories are really fantastic, but all of them are worth reading.

Two Boys Kissing (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17237214-two-boys-kissing?ac=1&from_search=true) - David Levithan (YA)
Craig and Harry want to break the world record for the longest kiss, Tariq was beaten up by homophobes, Neil and Peter are a happy couple, Avery (who’s trans) and Ryan are just starting a new relationship and Cooper suffers from crushing loneliness, stuck in the closet. This book tells these vaguely related stories about different gay teens, narrated by the ghosts of the gay men who died from AIDS.
This book is definitely an interesting read that contrasts the lives of gay people during the AIDS crisis with that of gay teens now, showing both how much things have improved but also how hard it can still be, not shying away from the darkest parts of queer lives.
TW for violent homophobia, depression and suicide.

Documenting Light (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31145748-documenting-light?ac=1&from_search=true) by E.E. Ottoman (Contemp./Romance)
Wyatt and Greyson try to find out who the two men in an old photograph are, while dealing with various difficulties in their lives. Romance happens.
This is a very short book (novella?) that describes the slowly developing romance between Wyatt, a closeted nonbinary person, and Greyson, a trans man who was cut off by most of his family after coming out. It’s not as lighthearted as the other romance books on this list, but it’s still optimistic and I really liked it. TW for transphobia.

Freya Snow series (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35009663-freya-snow---the-beginning?from_search=true) by L.C. Mawson (YA/Urban Fantasy)
After Freya finds out about her magical heritage, and learns to use her magic, she gets into various adventures, starting when some demons show up to kill her.
This is a series with currently ten books, with a total of 13 planned, and there are two spin of series with other main characters. These books have several queer characters (Freya is bi), which does come up often, but the focus is more on the action. There are several autistic characters (Freya is one of them), one deaf character and one character in a wheelchair, also several POC. I don’t remember how much homophobia there was in the setting, so if there was any, it wasn’t much. TW for suicide.
These books aren’t literary masterpieces, so don’t expect too much, but they are still enjoyable to read. The first one is free, so you can give it a try to see if you like it.
All that also goes for the spinoff books.

Love/Hate (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/36256131-love-hate) by L.C.Mawson (YA/Sci-Fi/Romance)
Emotion-fueled superheros protect the last few existing cities from monsters. Claire just got chosen as the new aspect of Love, but she’s in love with the aspect of Hate - which is a very bad combination.
There are currently three books in this series, I don’t know how many more are planned. Like the Freya Snow books, they have a lot of diversity but especially in later books the focus is on the action. There are again several autistic characters, including Claire, and several queer characters including a trans women and an agender character. Most of the cast are POC. There is no homophobia or transphobia in the setting.
Like the Freya snow books, these aren’t great but still a fun read (though I don’t like how the third book ended and where the plot is heading, but that is just my preference.)

Every Heart A Doorway (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25526296-every-heart-a-doorway?ac=1&from_search=true) by Seanan McGuire (Fantasy/Mystery)
What happens with the children that were pulled in other worlds when they come back? Nancy is one of them, and she gets sent to the Home for Wayward Children where she finally meets others like her, who understand her wish to return to her other world. But then a gruesome murder happens and it’s up to Nancy and her new friends to find out who did it.
I absolutely loved the premise of this book, the characters and the first half of the story - it is really beautifully written-, but I really didn’t like the mystery stuff- it changed the tone of the story completely in a way that just didn’t work for me. (You’ve probably noticed by now that I prefer fluffy stories and this one turned from fluffy to grim very quickly.) So if you don’t mind that, you might like this book, I know a lot of people do, that’s why I’m including it on this list. Nancy is asexual, and one of the other major characters is a trans boy. There was probably more diversity that I’m forgetting because I didn’t reread the book and it wasn’t the focus of the book. There were mentions of transphobia, but no cases during the story. TW for murder, gore etc. (It probably wasn’t as bad as I make it sound, I was just really upset when I finished the book so I’m remembering more of the negatives.)

Iwunen Interstellar Investigations (http://iwunen.net/) by Bogi Takács (Sci-Fi/Fantasy)
Ranai and Mirun, two autistic nonbinary people solve magical crimes in space. There are a lot of cupcakes. The prequel season shows how Ranai and Mirun met and includes some political intrigue. The first (current) season deals with health issues Mirun is having and mysterious accidents.
This is a web serial (updates once per week) which I totally fell in love with when I found it last week. That description makes it sound more silly than it is- it’s another story where a lot of bad things happen but that still feels good to read. It has some very interesting worldbuilding. The majority of characters are nonbinary, autistic and POC. Mirun and Ranai are also both demisexual and Mirun is physically disabled. The book also has some nonsexual kinky elements. There are mentions of discrimination against trans and neurodiverse people, but nothing of that actually happens in the story. TW for lots of medical stuff and major injuries.
Bogi Takács has also written several short stories that also feature queer main characters and which are also worth reading.

[Mariah]

I thought I should introduce myself quickly. I am DireMoose's wife Mariah. It took me two transitions to get it right and finally succeed and transitioning. I was born intersex and in many ways despite having had SRS my body still shows that too. Just here to make friends and help others. Jamie thought it would be a good idea I joined and so here I am.

[137beth]

im super frustrated with how health care treats trans people its awful

im looking to move back to my home city pretty soon, and ive been going down the informed consent route for hrt over here which is awesome. but that doesnt exist where im moving to, and you gotta get "diagnosed" and referred around constantly and wait times are atrocious. im super worried that im going to have an extended period of time where im not on hormones and its going to destroy what little progress ive made so far and just kick my dysphoria into overdrive.

im gonna talk to my doctor when i see her next about if theres any way to like skip all that cause im already on the medication but if theres not im really considering just self medicating cause i cant deal with all that gatekeeping crap

and its seriously making me reconsider moving which i dont want to do cause i aside from a good doctor i actually just hate it here
*hugs*
Ouch, that’s not fun.

I thought I should introduce myself quickly. I am DireMoose's wife Mariah. It took me two transitions to get it right and finally succeed and transitioning. I was born intersex and in many ways despite having had SRS my body still shows that too. Just here to make friends and help others. Jamie thought it would be a good idea I joined and so here I am.
Good to meet ya!

[KarlMarx]

Can anyone give me some advice for DMing for people who are accidentally trans-shaming, but refusing to change their behavior?

So I currently GM (D&D 5e) for a group via my school's traditional gaming club. Multiple people began using inappropriate slurs for trans people during a discussion on (the Greek deity)
Hermaphroditus, and while most of them stopped after I sternly warned them one member in particular refused to do so. They in fact loudly and deliberately continued to do so after others in the group asked them. Currently, no one in the group is trans, but we do have several LGB members, including myself (I'm pan-, in both senses), and we obviously want to keep the group open, as we've had members in the past who've had great difficulty finding acceptance. That, and the obvious issue with intolerance that the circumstances present.

Now, the issue is that the guy using the slurs has made it a speech argument, and we are in a public school. Furthermore, we've had various (unrelated) incidents come up in the past, and the administration isn't particularly likely to cut us any slack as a result. I am President of the club, so I'll have to bear the responsibility of dealing with the fallout...

Furthermore, from what I know of this kid's life, I don't really want to just kick him out. He's had a lot of his own difficulties, which aren't my place to discuss in detail, and I feel that he's lashing out at any group who he feels get attention at his expense (at least subconsciously). So, in addition to his being a friend of mine, I feel that kicking him out would simply irritate him further and thus not actually achieve any progress towards making the club as a whole more inclusive (I can kick him out of my game, but not the club).

So, does anyone have any advice for talking to him about the scenario? I might be able to talk some sense into him but I'd rather not make any bad blood...

[Serpentine]

What a pain, especially if you don't want to kick him out. Dude sounds like an ass, though.

What it made me think of, and that you might find helpful, is "we don't do that here" (http://thagomizer.com/blog/2017/09/29/we-don-t-do-that-here.html). Obviously you can't, don't and shouldn't control what he says elsewhere, but he is in your space, and your space follows your rules. He wants to say that elsewhere? Okay. But we don't say those things here.

[noparlpf]

"Free speech" just means he can't be arrested for what he said. A public school may be a government organisation but they can still have rules against certain kinds of language. I doubt you're allowed to swear in front of a teacher, so why would he be allowed to use slurs or hate speech? "Free speech" is 99% of the time a stupid bs argument. And regardless of school rules there can (and should!) be social repercussions for that kind of talk.

[Iruka]

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/free_speech.png

The title text might however be more fitting for this situation: I can't remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you're saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to express.

[KarlMarx]

What a pain, especially if you don't want to kick him out. Dude sounds like an ass, though.

What it made me think of, and that you might find helpful, is "we don't do that here" (http://thagomizer.com/blog/2017/09/29/we-don-t-do-that-here.html). Obviously you can't, don't and shouldn't control what he says elsewhere, but he is in your space, and your space follows your rules. He wants to say that elsewhere? Okay. But we don't say those things here.

Pretty much exactly my thought process, and how I should have initially responded. Unfortunately, the way things happened, I think there'll be some bad blood if we just completely ignore the issue.

As for the speech issue, I'm perfectly familiar with what the laws protect (I'm not a lawyer or even close, just nerd enough to have spent several nights reading through relevant supreme court decisions). My real concern is that if he does make it an issue, we'd have to get the administration involved, and if I didn't cover my tracks perfectly, well, there's precedent for them shutting the club down over less.

Essentially, at this point, I need advice on how to come to an amicable resolution now, preferably without too much administrator involvement. What Serpentine said makes sense, and is certainly something I'll remember in the future, but isn't of much help to me now, I feel.

[Florian]

@KarlMarx:

The basic maxim for an open society is: "No tolerance for intolerance". Yes, that includes a certain paradox by automatically excluding some people, but is necessary to protect the openness we should all strive for.

For your club, you're an authority person right now, so sit down and review and possible alter the charta for the club to be as inclusive as possible, meaning you should also include rules against discrimination, hate speech and slurs. Make sure there're lines that shouldn't be crossed and proclaim loudly "We don't want that here".

You can also come up with a variant of "three strikes - out", like "three offenses - temporary ban for a week, three temporary bans - out".

The rest, sadly, is more up to the player than to you. Have a talk with him, tell him his comments are hurtful and unwanted and when he keeps repeating them, there'll be consequences. The rest is up to him. You're not your brothers keeper when there're other people around that also needs keeping.


"Free speech" just means he can't be arrested for what he said. A public school may be a government organisation but they can still have rules against certain kinds of language. I doubt you're allowed to swear in front of a teacher, so why would he be allowed to use slurs or hate speech? "Free speech" is 99% of the time a stupid bs argument. And regardless of school rules there can (and should!) be social repercussions for that kind of talk.

Times like these, I'm actually pretty happy that my country doesn't have "Free Speech" in that sense. Break the law and suffer the consequences and stuff like "Hate Speech" is considered a crime against your fellow citizens.

[ve4grm]

So, does anyone have any advice for talking to him about the scenario? I might be able to talk some sense into him but I'd rather not make any bad blood...

Right, so... I grew up around this type of guy. I probably was one at some point, to try to fit in better.

In my experience, the guys doing this sort of thing only latch onto it as long as they're getting a rise out of someone.

I'm going to assume it's a... weekly game? Something like that? If that's the case, I'd advise ignoring it until the next game. If he doesn't keep doing it, then he's gotten over it for now, and you can move on with your life.

And if he does it again (next game or any later time), you can default to "we don't do that here."

.

"But my free speech rights at a public school!"

"Yeah, a public school. Where you get in trouble if you cuss at the teachers, wear a shirt with a slur on it, or say sexually explicit things. We don't get to use slurs at school. We can get in trouble for it, so we don't do that here."

.

Seriously, what public school allows all free speech? None I've ever seen.

[KarlMarx]

I am fully aware that the guy's invocation of speech is not an argument he'd win. The issue is, as I've mentioned above, that I don't want to have to involve the school's administration, and I don't think I could handle it in the club as that approach has gotten us in trouble in the path. I'm looking for advice on how I can create a constructive resolution without bringing it to the level where administration would need to get involved, which a speech issue--however phoney--would.

We also don't actually have a charter (yet), though I've been meaning to write one...

[JusticeZero]

I thought I should introduce myself quickly. I am DireMoose's wife Mariah.
Hiya! :D My introduction is in the dark misty depths of time and also inaccurate anyways at this point.. I'm just a married forty-something NA ace T-girl in a cold place. Nice to meet you!

We also don't actually have a charter (yet), though I've been meaning to write one...
Well there you go! :D

[AuthorGirl]

I thought I should introduce myself quickly. I am DireMoose's wife Mariah. It took me two transitions to get it right and finally succeed and transitioning. I was born intersex and in many ways despite having had SRS my body still shows that too. Just here to make friends and help others. Jamie thought it would be a good idea I joined and so here I am.

Oh hi! Nice to meet you :smallsmile:

Not much to say except I'm bi, a girl, and I post on this forum sometimes.

Welcome!

[Lycunadari]

I’m trying out binding with KT tape (not TransTape (https://transtape.life/pages/about-transtape) though because shipping from the US is so fricking expensive) and so far I’m not completely happy with it. It makes me a bit flatter, but not as flat as I would like, and also not as flat as a binder. But I think with a bit more practise it will work better, so I’m still hopeful. Also, it doesn’t hurt at all (and even feels kinda nice), so that makes it much better than a binder - I can’t often wear my binder because anything tight around my chest hurts my ribs and back (even a fairly soft sports bra, or a normal bra). So if I can get it to work a bit better still, I think it will be a good option for me for days when I just can’t stand not binding.

[Florian]

I’m trying out binding with KT tape (not TransTape (https://transtape.life/pages/about-transtape) though because shipping from the US is so fricking expensive) and so far I’m not completely happy with it. It makes me a bit flatter, but not as flat as I would like, and also not as flat as a binder. But I think with a bit more practise it will work better, so I’m still hopeful. Also, it doesn’t hurt at all (and even feels kinda nice), so that makes it much better than a binder - I can’t often wear my binder because anything tight around my chest hurts my ribs and back (even a fairly soft sports bra, or a normal bra). So if I can get it to work a bit better still, I think it will be a good option for me for days when I just can’t stand not binding.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but breasts consist basically on fat matter and the female body type uses them as one of the major areas to store energy in (upper legs, butt, calves, breasts). By the pictures you've posted, you, well, look pretty slim and androgynous. How´s your experience with using sports and workout to counter the buildup in the first place?

[noparlpf]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but breasts consist basically of fat matter and the female body type uses them as one of the major areas to store energy in (upper legs, butt, calves, breasts). By the pictures you've posted, you, well, look pretty slim and androgynous. How´s your experience with using sports and workout to counter the buildup in the first place?

Breasts are part fat and part mammary gland, the latter of which doesn't really respond to weight loss. If somebody loses weight their breast size will decrease to some extent, but breast size is also dependent on stuff like genetics and hormone levels. Look at like, gymnasts or marathon runners; some of them have such low body fat/are essentially constantly undernourished that they can experience amenorrhea, but even though they're generally pretty flat most of them still have more mammary tissue than their cis male counterparts. And getting your body fat that low isn't super healthy either.

[Florian]

Breasts are part fat and part mammary gland, the latter of which doesn't really respond to weight loss. If somebody loses weight their breast size will decrease to some extent, but breast size is also dependent on stuff like genetics and hormone levels. Look at like, gymnasts or marathon runners; some of them have such low body fat/are essentially constantly undernourished that they can experience amenorrhea, but even though they're generally pretty flat most of them still have more mammary tissue than their cis male counterparts. And getting your body fat that low isn't super healthy either.

Context. I hinted at female and male body types and typical "problem zones" with that for a reason, that is beyond "tits". Our young Nürmberger here is quite young, so prone to tackle the obvious, but the actually challenging point is how to handle a body with 30 or 40.

[Lycunadari]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but breasts consist basically on fat matter and the female body type uses them as one of the major areas to store energy in (upper legs, butt, calves, breasts). By the pictures you've posted, you, well, look pretty slim and androgynous. How´s your experience with using sports and workout to counter the buildup in the first place?

I don't think you can "exercise away" breasts- exercising chests musculature/general upper body muscle can help with making them less noticeable, but you need A LOT of muscles to get anyway near to not needing to bind. I have seen some pictures of trans guys who did manage to get their chest to look close enough to a cis man's chest to be able to pass while shirtless through working out, but they have all been very, very buff. And even if that was achievable for me, that's not a look I want (and I'm pretty sure one would also have to be on HRT to get to that look). That said, while I'd definitely like to do more exercise (because even if I don't get to a "don't need to bind at all" level, it would still help somewhat), I'm disabled/chronically ill, so most of the time exercising is just not possible for me, as simply doing every day activities (cooking, showering, walking to uni etc) takes up all the energy I have. And I'm actually trying to gain weight- I'm underweight and losing any more would be actively dangerous for me.

[TechnOkami]

q u e s t i o n

Salutations and greetings. I think this is the first time I've posted in this thread, come to think of it.

I am trying to come to a personal understanding of if I am asexual or aromantic (or something else I have not thought of), and would like to know if anyone has good resources to read or watch which would assist in said self-analysis and determination.

[Icewraith]

I don't think you can "exercise away" breasts- exercising chests musculature/general upper body muscle can help with making them less noticeable, but you need A LOT of muscles to get anyway near to not needing to bind. I have seen some pictures of trans guys who did manage to get their chest to look close enough to a cis man's chest to be able to pass while shirtless through working out, but they have all been very, very buff. And even if that was achievable for me, that's not a look I want (and I'm pretty sure one would also have to be on HRT to get to that look). That said, while I'd definitely like to do more exercise (because even if I don't get to a "don't need to bind at all" level, it would still help somewhat), I'm disabled/chronically ill, so most of the time exercising is just not possible for me, as simply doing every day activities (cooking, showering, walking to uni etc) takes up all the energy I have. And I'm actually trying to gain weight- I'm underweight and losing any more would be actively dangerous for me.

It is possible to significantly diminish breasts through exercise... if you've got the time and energy to work out at the level of a professional gymnast or actor on a martial-arts heavy film shoot for a couple of years. But you can't usually target specific areas of your body to remove fat from via exercise. Overall, if you lower your body fat %, fat deposits (including breasts) will shrink. But you don't control how your body determines which reserves to pull from first, so areas may not shrink proportionately to the % of body fat lost.

Doing a ton of pushups won't necessarily shrink your breasts better than any other exercise, but you also won't get bulky chest muscles if your body's not testosterone-dominant so they probably won't make things worse. Pushups can be done anywhere and require no extra equipment, so they're not a bad place to start if you're looking to start exercising. (Look up how to do them correctly if your only memories are from grade school/talk to your doctor if you have other physical limitations)

It sounds like your health goals (gain weight), desired body type (androgynous), and body chemistry (estrogen-dominant) are in conflict.

[JusticeZero]

I am trying to come to a personal understanding of if I am asexual or aromantic (or something else I have not thought of), and would like to know if anyone has good resources to read or watch which would assist in said self-analysis and determination.
The main issue I find is that the stories of people who are repulsed are very different from the stories of sex+ and sex= aces. How about if you start telling what you are experiencing and feeling, and maybe it will help?
There are a few analogies that a lot of aces resonate with - my favorite is the "invisible elephant".
At a certain age, everybody gets an elephant that is invisible to everybody but themselves. People talk a lot about their elephant, compare each other's elephant, most television shows and movies involve people's elephant in some way, shape or form.
You grow up, get to the age of elephanting, and... no elephant.
But nobody will tell you what elephants are supposed to look like because 'Just look at your elephant!' You look everywhere. Are elephants just very small? Maybe that wind moving the grass was an elephant? You still just do not get elephant jokes because you can't find any elephants. And nobody will believe that you can't find yours.
One other one was the music one, again by an aro - a series of comics where everybody in the world would suddenly and randomly break out into song and dance musical numbers.. but you just couldn't hear the music.

[Anymage]

q u e s t i o n

Salutations and greetings. I think this is the first time I've posted in this thread, come to think of it.

I am trying to come to a personal understanding of if I am asexual or aromantic (or something else I have not thought of), and would like to know if anyone has good resources to read or watch which would assist in said self-analysis and determination.

I don't know if this'll help, but your outlook is totally alien to me.

I'm heavily on the side that language is descriptive, not prescriptive. There is no licensing board to determine if you're a proper ace/aro, and you're not locked into anything if you change your mind later. (We can think someone is obnoxious if they have to make a big production to everybody within earshot, and we can think someone is strange if their stated label is strongly at odds with their observed behavior, but both those problems are easy to avoid.) If you're utterly disinterested in romance and/or sex, just be upfront about as much. If you're actively uncomfortable around the ideas, you can express that just as well too. And if sex/romance sound nice in theory but not worth the effort in practice, that's easy to communicate too.

Oftentimes it's worth taking a moment away from the tumblr vocabulary and try stating things in plain English. That can help focus your thoughts much better, and focus on what you want over how well you fit into predefined boxes.

[Lissou]

I don't know if this'll help, but your outlook is totally alien to me.

I'm heavily on the side that language is descriptive, not descriptive.

I'm guessing one of these was supposed to be "prescriptive"?

[ve4grm]

I don't know if this'll help, but your outlook is totally alien to me.

I'm heavily on the side that language is descriptive, not prescriptive. There is no licensing board to determine if you're a proper ace/aro, and you're not locked into anything if you change your mind later. (We can think someone is obnoxious if they have to make a big production to everybody within earshot, and we can think someone is strange if their stated label is strongly at odds with their observed behavior, but both those problems are easy to avoid.) If you're utterly disinterested in romance and/or sex, just be upfront about as much. If you're actively uncomfortable around the ideas, you can express that just as well too. And if sex/romance sound nice in theory but not worth the effort in practice, that's easy to communicate too.

Oftentimes it's worth taking a moment away from the tumblr vocabulary and try stating things in plain English. That can help focus your thoughts much better, and focus on what you want over how well you fit into predefined boxes.

While I agree in theory, I think that as humans we like to label things. It helps us understand them, gets us past the fear of the unknown.

For example, I have mental health issues. Everything was scary and uncertain at first, until I discovered that what was causing it was (generally) OCD. Once I had a name, a label to put on it, I could begin to understand and deal with what I was feeling. It was no longer this nebulous unknown feeling that I couldn't identify.

Not that being ace/aro is something that needs to be "dealt with" or combatted, of course. But as something that needs to be understood and lived with, having a name for it can be very useful, even if that name isn't 100% accurate to start off.

That said, taking a step back, as you say, and trying to describe your feelings in simple words can definitely help. Even if it's just to identify the situation so you can assign a name.

[noparlpf]

q u e s t i o n

Salutations and greetings. I think this is the first time I've posted in this thread, come to think of it.

I am trying to come to a personal understanding of if I am asexual or aromantic (or something else I have not thought of), and would like to know if anyone has good resources to read or watch which would assist in said self-analysis and determination.

Reading the forums on AVEN could help just to get a lot of different ace-spectrum perspectives to compare.

[Jormengand]

I don't know if this'll help, but your outlook is totally alien to me.

I'm heavily on the side that language is descriptive, not prescriptive. There is no licensing board to determine if you're a proper ace/aro

Linguistic descriptivism doesn't necessarily mean that words don't actually have specified meanings, honestly. They're just specified via a different process - it means that the criteria for asexuality become "Would anyone actually call you asexual?" rather than "Do you meet the criteria defined by the etymology?".

[Lycunadari]

q u e s t i o n

Salutations and greetings. I think this is the first time I've posted in this thread, come to think of it.

I am trying to come to a personal understanding of if I am asexual or aromantic (or something else I have not thought of), and would like to know if anyone has good resources to read or watch which would assist in said self-analysis and determination.
This blog (https://****yeahasexual.tumblr.com/) has a ton of resources about asexuality (and some about aromanticism). If you start at the FAQ or check out the articles or reference tags, I'm sure you'll find some useful things there.

JusticeZero has already talked about the elephant analogy, another one that I like is about turtles: Most people have turtles in their ponds, but I haven't seen any in mine. Does that mean there are no turtles? How can I know for sure that there are no turtles in my pond? Maybe they are just really good at hiding, or I just haven't looked enough. Or maybe there are turtles, but I just haven't recognised them? What even are turtles?

Knowing for sure that you are ace or aro can be difficult, because proving the absence of something, especially of something so nebulous as "attraction", especially especially if you aren't even sure what you are looking for, is almost impossible. But if you feel like ace or aro (or any of the subcategories, like demisexual or grey-aro/ace) as a label fits you, and you want to identify that way, you don't have to be 100% sure. If you feel like calling yourself ace or aro is useful for you, then that's what you are.

Like, I call myself grey ace because I think, in theory, I could be attracted to someone. I was maybe attracted to a friend in highschool who I had a crush on, but I'm not sure, because feelings are complicated and I have no idea how to categorise the feelings I had for her. And I can make up fictional characters that I find attractive, so maybe I will at some point meet someone who has the same characteristics as these characters, and maybe I will be attracted to them. Or maybe I won't because attraction suddenly stops existing for me when it comes to real people. Who knows! I don't, so I call myself grey ace because that sums up my complicated relationship with sexual attraction pretty nicely.
Now, my feelings about romantic attraction are similar. I'm preeetty sure I was romantically attracted to my friend, but not 100% sure. That also was the only time I had serious feelings for someone. I've had a few very, very short lived spikes of romantic feelings for other people since then, but nothing serious. And what I wrote about fictional characters above is the same here as well. So I could probably call myself grey aro as well, going purely by definition, but I don't. I don't really feel like it fits, it doesn't feel useful for me, and it might communicate to people that I'm not interested in having a romantic relationship, which is not true. So I just don't use that label for myself.

So, what I'm saying is, look at how you feel, and then look if there is a label that explains your feelings, and then you can decide if you want to use that label or if you'd rather not.




It is possible to significantly diminish breasts through exercise... if you've got the time and energy to work out at the level of a professional gymnast or actor on a martial-arts heavy film shoot for a couple of years. But you can't usually target specific areas of your body to remove fat from via exercise. Overall, if you lower your body fat %, fat deposits (including breasts) will shrink. But you don't control how your body determines which reserves to pull from first, so areas may not shrink proportionately to the % of body fat lost.

Doing a ton of pushups won't necessarily shrink your breasts better than any other exercise, but you also won't get bulky chest muscles if your body's not testosterone-dominant so they probably won't make things worse. Pushups can be done anywhere and require no extra equipment, so they're not a bad place to start if you're looking to start exercising. (Look up how to do them correctly if your only memories are from grade school/talk to your doctor if you have other physical limitations)

It sounds like your health goals (gain weight), desired body type (androgynous), and body chemistry (estrogen-dominant) are in conflict.
Yeah, I'm aware of all that. Like I said, I know that getting rid of my breasts through exercise is not possible for me, I just wrote about that because Florian brought it up.

And you have just perfectly summed up the source of my dysphoria. :smalltongue: Though I actually don't think gaining weight will make it worse- looking back at pictures from before I lost so much weight, what has changed is mostly the size of my waist, so assuming my body will put any new fat where it used to be, I should actually get less curvy when I manage to gain weight again.




Oftentimes it's worth taking a moment away from the tumblr vocabulary and try stating things in plain English. That can help focus your thoughts much better, and focus on what you want over how well you fit into predefined boxes.
Hey, calling asexuality tumblr vocabulary is not fair. :smalltongue: AVEN was founded in 2001, years before tumblr was a thing, and I'm sure people were using that word even before that. And I second everything ve4grm said about the usefulness of having labels do describe your experience.

[ve4grm]

JusticeZero has already talked about the elephant analogy, another one that I like is about turtles: Most people have turtles in their ponds, but I haven't seen any in mine. Does that mean there are no turtles? How can I know for sure that there are no turtles in my pond? Maybe they are just really good at hiding, or I just haven't looked enough. Or maybe there are turtles, but I just haven't recognised them? What even are turtles?

Now I just have this image of Steve Irwin wading through a pond, looking for turtles.

"Now, we don't know exactly what they look like, but we think they should be here. Crikey! Look at the size of that beast! Is that a turtle? ...nah, the pond's just full of gators like usual."

...wait. That took a weird turn.

[Dire Moose]

I'm worried about starting HRT officially soon and continuing the stopgap measures I've been doing as well. While I do want to express myself as female and be able to appear female even when wearing little to no clothing, I am afraid that HRT will also keep me from expressing myself as male effectively.

I'm genderfluid, and have lately been realizing that I can't live without my male side despite still wanting to be female as well. I need to be able to express both without issues, but unfortunately there is one major conflict. As female I want to have decent sized, visible breasts, which I have wished for for many years, but I also don't want to have to bind myself as male. Thus, I'm really struggling with whether I should continue hormones or not.

[Icewraith]

I'm worried about starting HRT officially soon and continuing the stopgap measures I've been doing as well. While I do want to express myself as female and be able to appear female even when wearing little to no clothing, I am afraid that HRT will also keep me from expressing myself as male effectively.

I'm genderfluid, and have lately been realizing that I can't live without my male side despite still wanting to be female as well. I need to be able to express both without issues, but unfortunately there is one major conflict. As female I want to have decent sized, visible breasts, which I have wished for for many years, but I also don't want to have to bind myself as male. Thus, I'm really struggling with whether I should continue hormones or not.

I'm pretty sure there are high quality prosthetics that will do a lot of what you want when you do want breasts.

[Dire Moose]

I'm pretty sure there are high quality prosthetics that will do a lot of what you want when you do want breasts.

I said I wanted BREASTS as female. As in REAL breasts. I definitely did NOT say I wanted fake prosthetics to make it LOOK like I have breasts.

Apologies for the bad attitude, but I am really frustrated about this right now.

[lio45]

I said I wanted BREASTS as female. As in REAL breasts. I definitely did NOT say I wanted fake prosthetics to make it LOOK like I have breasts.

Apologies for the bad attitude, but I am really frustrated about this right now.

Apologies in advance for this, but I don't think a genderfluid person can realistically hope to have instant genuine breasts whenever they want to have breasts, and have no breasts whenever they don't want breasts. His advice was decently reasonable as far as possible ways to be able to flip a on/off switch for breasts go.

[Dire Moose]

I get that. On the other hand, I'm definitely not unhappy with the growth I've already had up top, and I'm not entirely sure wearing a binder would be that much worse then wearing a bra.

Meanwhile, from what I've seen HRT rarely gives you anything truly huge, so it's unlikely to get something that easy to notice.

[Recherché]

Ambiguous breasts and either a push up bra or a tight undershirt depending on how you feel that day might be your best bet then.

[Icewraith]

I said I wanted BREASTS as female. As in REAL breasts. I definitely did NOT say I wanted fake prosthetics to make it LOOK like I have breasts.

Apologies for the bad attitude, but I am really frustrated about this right now.

Medical prostheses are designed in part for women who have undergone single mastectomies and want to look and feel as natural as possible without undergoing more surgery. Some are specifically designed to participate during sex, feel realistic to the partner, match the remaining breast in appearance and movement, and be worn topless.

These things need to be good enough to not trigger dysphoria or similar trauma in a woman who knows damn well she had to have one of her breasts surgically removed before it could kill her. That's a REALLY high bar.

Is it a perfect solution? No. But it's something to look into, and it's reversible (with some effort) for when you're feeling male.

Also, HRT results can vary... but I know for a fact that large breasts are a possible outcome. I just don't know what the rough percentages are. My experience with the universe is that if you don't control the outcome of an event with variable results, and it is expensive or permanent, the result will usually be the opposite of what you want while technically achieving your objective. You should at least have a plan for how you're going to deal with mountains instead of foothills while your fluidity is male in case you turn out to be a breast growing prodigy.

[The Extinguisher]

Also, HRT results can vary... but I know for a fact that large breasts are a possible outcome. I just don't know what the rough percentages are. My experience with the universe is that if you don't control the outcome of an event with variable results, and it is expensive or permanent, the result will usually be the opposite of what you want while technically achieving your objective. You should at least have a plan for how you're going to deal with mountains instead of foothills while your fluidity is male in case you turn out to be a breast growing prodigy.

yeah it mostly comes down to genetics there. if youre predisposed to grow large breasts then your gonna do than when you start getting estrogen, whether it comes in puberty one or two

[Lentrax]

I am really missing health insurance. Without it, I am pretty sure I am going to have to figure out self medicating so I can start HRT. But at the same time, that kinda scares me if something goes wrong. Which in my life, is probably an absolute certainty... :smallfrown:

[Shadowscale]

I get that. On the other hand, I'm definitely not unhappy with the growth I've already had up top, and I'm not entirely sure wearing a binder would be that much worse then wearing a bra.

Meanwhile, from what I've seen HRT rarely gives you anything truly huge, so it's unlikely to get something that easy to notice.

As an agendered person who doesn't like 'er breasts, I highly advice against binding them whilst they're still growing.

[Mariah]

Agree with Shadowscale something like a tight T-shirt or a sports bra to help minimize without causing damage to the growing breasts if it becomes an issue for you.

[JusticeZero]

My advice? Just grow the boobs. On guy days wear loose clothes and a sports bra. Lots of guys end up with breasts for various medical reasons. Clothes can cover them. And most trans girls don't end up with amazingly huge breasts anyways.

[Astrella]

Bluh, I keep drifting back to reading terf-y stuff and it's really been messing with my head and it just gnaws and gnaws the thought that they're really right in the end and that I'm essentially being awful by transitioning. (Also all the gross stuff they say about neo-vaginas really doesn't help in the post-surgery, still needing lots of care phase) And that basically everyone's just humoring me and really thinks I'm despicable actually, even cis people who say they support us.


I am really missing health insurance. Without it, I am pretty sure I am going to have to figure out self medicating so I can start HRT. But at the same time, that kinda scares me if something goes wrong. Which in my life, is probably an absolute certainty... :smallfrown:

*offers hugs*

If you start out slowly and on a low dose and slowly build up and mind any adverse reactions you should be okay; (estrogen)-based HRT (I'm not super familiar with potential testosterone side-effects, but it's a lot harder to get access too considering it can be used for doping purposes in sports) is pretty low on the risk-scale looking at meds overall.

[JusticeZero]

I went with injections, personally. Inexpensive, very stable if you split it up at high frequency (mine is twice a week), and very safe compared to pills. The estradiol itself is pretty safe. Blockers gave me a lot of problems, but I don't use blockers anymore. I have an NP who double checks my dose and blood draws every few months, but I basically manage it myself otherwise. If you find somebody that isn't a gatekeeper, you don't have to take much of their time at all.

[3WhiteFox3]

I'm new to the thread, but I've been really struggling with my gender-identity and sexuality recently. I've always questioned my gender, but people always told me it was a phase and I'd grow out of it (if I ever mentioned it at all, because I often felt ashamed of my fantasies involving not being my assigned gender). I'm also afraid that I have the wrong motives for questioning my gender identity, that I'm trying to distance myself because I feel like I don't fit in, not because I'm actually gender queer. I'm primarily interested in learning more about the different ways someone who identifies as LGBTAI+ understand themselves, because I've always felt that societal expectation of who I am in these areas doesn't really fit me, but I don't have a clear idea of what sexuality/gender-identity I have.

I apologize if this comes across as stilted or rambling. I'm really just anxious because I feel like it's important for me to finally start trying to find answers to my questions about who I am, but I don't really know how to start.

[Lissou]

@Astrella this sounds really rough! If have a bunch of hugs for you if you want them. I hope you're feeling better or that you will soon.

[Eldest]

I'm new to the thread, but I've been really struggling with my gender-identity and sexuality recently. I've always questioned my gender, but people always told me it was a phase and I'd grow out of it (if I ever mentioned it at all, because I often felt ashamed of my fantasies involving not being my assigned gender). I'm also afraid that I have the wrong motives for questioning my gender identity, that I'm trying to distance myself because I feel like I don't fit in, not because I'm actually gender queer. I'm primarily interested in learning more about the different ways someone who identifies as LGBTAI+ understand themselves, because I've always felt that societal expectation of who I am in these areas doesn't really fit me, but I don't have a clear idea of what sexuality/gender-identity I have.

I apologize if this comes across as stilted or rambling. I'm really just anxious because I feel like it's important for me to finally start trying to find answers to my questions about who I am, but I don't really know how to start.

Wanting to not be your assigned gender is the biggest sign for not, in fact, being your assigned gender. Try looking at yourself as different from cis and straight, and see what labels fit you.

[JusticeZero]

One of my friends is gushing at me about being ..infatuated? with a woman's scent and presence and things, and I feel like a complete alien freak because I have no idea how to even interpret what she is saying to me.

Oh, and what Eldest said, but you might also need to start trying stuff out so you can triangulate and figure things out.
What is your relationship with your reflection in a mirror like?

[3WhiteFox3]

Oh, and what Eldest said, but you might also need to start trying stuff out so you can triangulate and figure things out.
What is your relationship with your reflection in a mirror like?

Complicated, I have body-image issues, which are partially due to being overweight and not being great at self-care, but also because I've never felt 'right' as the gender I was supposed to be. I look at myself and I don't see that's a man, which is my assigned gender, I just see a person. I thought I would feel more like my assigned gender as I got older, but it hasn't happened yet. I've always felt like a floating head in a body than a gendered being and most of my thoughts of masculinity were whether I was measuring up to the expectations of others. For a long time, I avoided mirrors all together because I had a hard time looking at them, I recognized that the person in the reflection is what I look like, but it doesn't look like me (if that makes any sense). There's also just a lot of issues with how my parents (and culture I used to be associated with) perceived what an 'ideal' man was supposed to be, and I've never been able to live up to that.

I want to start exploring different alternatives, and right now I'm thinking about choosing to self-identify as agender or genderqueer. Simply because I have been trying out different associations of gender in my head (Saying things like: "I am a man", "I am a woman" and "I don't fit into any one gender" to see what fits me best) and the idea that I keep coming back to is that I feel most comfortable when I think of myself as not being confined to just one gender. I don't feel like my biology fits who I really am.

That said, I don't know what steps can be made to make myself feel more comfortable if I am agender or genderqueer.

[JusticeZero]

I've always felt like a floating head in a body than a gendered being and most of my thoughts of masculinity were whether I was measuring up to the expectations of others. For a long time, I avoided mirrors all together because I had a hard time looking at them, I recognized that the person in the reflection is what I look like, but it doesn't look like me (if that makes any sense).

OK, that sounds pretty verbatim what one of the most distinctive experiences of not being cisgender is.

Now the reason I say to triangulate is this: I didn't have much of a pull to the other gender, so all I knew was that I wasn't *male* and that made me dysphoric. But I was confusing the 'new car smell' with other dysphoria. Once I decided to stop mucking about and try switching sides and tried things out, I was able to figure out that I didn't actually have any dysphoria there, and I was better able to carve out an identity. As you noted, there is a LOT more support for binary identities. Alternately, you might race to the other side of the pool and hit a wall on that side too, in which case, aha! You have data to work with to figure out where you belong!

[Reaperess]

Is it too late for me to join in here? Should I make a proper introduction for myself?

I don't post a lot, I mostly lurk, but I do want to become more active in this community (GITP, in general, and especially in any LGBT+ areas).

I guess to start off with, Hi I'm Reaperess. Trans woman, Lesbian, possibly poly(?), and I've been out and transitioning for nearly a year and a half.

[AMFV]

*offers hugs*

If you start out slowly and on a low dose and slowly build up and mind any adverse reactions you should be okay; (estrogen)-based HRT (I'm not super familiar with potential testosterone side-effects, but it's a lot harder to get access too considering it can be used for doping purposes in sports) is pretty low on the risk-scale looking at meds overall.

Actually because of it's alternative uses it is incredibly easy to get access to test, although you may have to go through some super shady channels and do a lot of research to do so. But there's a lot of research available, much more than Estrogenic compounds actually, because people who are using it to lift bigger weights and get swole have been putting crap on the internet. Although, you do have to wade through a bunch of crap to get to that.

I have some limited experience with it, if anybody has questions, although since I was a testosterone dominant person to begin with, and because I was probably using dosages that would be obscene for anybody just trying for an HRT type effect, so I don't know how useful my experiences would be.

I will say the following, make sure you do your research on what other stuff you should be taking for the side effects cause aromatasing will really screw you over. I'm not going to go into it in too much detail since I only have my own personal experience and am not going to be giving folks medical advice, but suffice it to say you should never be on only test, although maybe in really small doses that's okay.

Also, the "Super *******" thing is true, if you were a jerk before, if you take test you will be an enormous tool at least some of the time, if you aren't watching to make sure that doesn't happen. So that's like the main thing I would watch for, any kind of mood swings or what-not.

[EternalMelon]

Is it too late for me to join in here? Should I make a proper introduction for myself?

I don't post a lot, I mostly lurk, but I do want to become more active in this community (GITP, in general, and especially in any LGBT+ areas).

I guess to start off with, Hi I'm Reaperess. Trans woman, Lesbian, possibly poly(?), and I've been out and transitioning for nearly a year and a half.
Hey, welcome to the thread! Never feel hesitant to post about anything at all!

[Florian]

Complicated, I have body-image issues, which are partially due to being overweight and not being great at self-care, but also because I've never felt 'right' as the gender I was supposed to be. I look at myself and I don't see that's a man, which is my assigned gender, I just see a person. I thought I would feel more like my assigned gender as I got older, but it hasn't happened yet. I've always felt like a floating head in a body than a gendered being and most of my thoughts of masculinity were whether I was measuring up to the expectations of others. For a long time, I avoided mirrors all together because I had a hard time looking at them, I recognized that the person in the reflection is what I look like, but it doesn't look like me (if that makes any sense). There's also just a lot of issues with how my parents (and culture I used to be associated with) perceived what an 'ideal' man was supposed to be, and I've never been able to live up to that.

I want to start exploring different alternatives, and right now I'm thinking about choosing to self-identify as agender or genderqueer. Simply because I have been trying out different associations of gender in my head (Saying things like: "I am a man", "I am a woman" and "I don't fit into any one gender" to see what fits me best) and the idea that I keep coming back to is that I feel most comfortable when I think of myself as not being confined to just one gender. I don't feel like my biology fits who I really am.

That said, I don't know what steps can be made to make myself feel more comfortable if I am agender or genderqueer.

*Shrugs*

You've already named the core problem you've got to get a grip on. The propagated image of what "masculine" and "feminine" (in the media) doesn't have much to do with the baseline CIS we´re born with at times. Don't let yourself be fooled, a "Brad Pitt" doesn't define what CIS masculinity is, neither do other "icons".

That said, some food for thought: Like with the "free speech" amendment, you might be allowed to say whatever you want, but nobody is forced to listen. Same with your overweight issue and lack of self care. You apparently try to positioned yourself on the "side lines" and hope to be flexible enough so someone, somehow, is gonna "love" you for what you are, which is not gonna happen.

[3WhiteFox3]

*Shrugs*

You've already named the core problem you've got to get a grip on. The propagated image of what "masculine" and "feminine" (in the media) doesn't have much to do with the baseline CIS we´re born with at times. Don't let yourself be fooled, a "Brad Pitt" doesn't define what CIS masculinity is, neither do other "icons". I've considered that, but for reasons I won't go into here, that answer hasn't satisfied me. I've heard everything you've said from countless well-meaning people, it hasn't helped. I'm questioning because I've tried everything else. I don't even know how you define cis masculinity, so I don't know how you could start defining mine either (or whether or not I'm cis nor not). But that doesn't even matter, I just don't find what you've posted relevant or persuasive.


That said, some food for thought: Like with the "free speech" amendment, you might be allowed to say whatever you want, but nobody is forced to listen. Same with your overweight issue and lack of self care. You apparently try to positioned yourself on the "side lines" and hope to be flexible enough so someone, somehow, is gonna "love" you for what you are, which is not gonna happen.
I've heard this all before. I've even seriously considered it. I'm not trying to force anyone to listen to me or love me. What even gives you that idea? (nor am I just waiting for someone to love me without doing things on my own). Sometimes people need more help than that. You've also made a bunch of baseless assumptions that have nothing to do with my reality. So don't patronize me. I'm well aware that my weight and self care are issues, and I'm working on them.

EDIT: I'm coming across as more dismissive here than I intended. I hear what you're saying, I do. I just don't agree, even though I used to. I'm trying to keep an open mind, but that's why I'm questioning and trying new things. If that also doesn't work, great, then I'll have empirical evidence that guides future decisions. If it does work and I do start to feel more like myself (because that's what this is really about) then that's what I'm going with.

[Sobol]

Is it too late for me to join in here? Should I make a proper introduction for myself?

I don't post a lot, I mostly lurk, but I do want to become more active in this community (GITP, in general, and especially in any LGBT+ areas).

I guess to start off with, Hi I'm Reaperess. Trans woman, Lesbian, possibly poly(?), and I've been out and transitioning for nearly a year and a half.
Greetings from a fellow lurker!

[Heliomance]

Nice - my work's just announced that they're partnering with Stonewall as a corporate sponsor, and starting up an LGBT member network.

[Sobol]

And the biggest movie theater in my city started routinely screening LGBT films (I guess the owners are sympathizers).

You have to be 18+ to watch In a Heartbeat (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2REkk9SCRn0) on a big screen, but it still feels like progress here.

[JusticeZero]

I am seeing signs advertising for the bathroom bill now.

There was a radio debate, every call in was against the bathroom bill (except for one email whining that nobody on the other side had asked a question, but the moderator annoyedly had to then comment "But you didn't ask a question, so..."

All I could think of was the male security guard who barged into the bathroom yelling my name and demanding I use the men's room. What would he do if my husband, who is read as male, were to walk into the men's room with an actual law banning him from the men's bathroom in place? And all the times I have heard people say "If I see a man walk into the women's bathroom, I'll shoot him!"

Mental health is tattered, even if the actual news has been hopeful. I'm trying to get mental health time, but I feel like I need some tips on how to soak this stuff.

[Heliomance]

Bleeeeh, I'm having anxieties about never being able to find a partner again. Brains suck.

[Sahe]

Hey, first time posting in this thread.

I'm a trans woman and lesbian.

Some random notes:
- beards are the worst, but I can start getting rid of mine in 1.5 months, which is kind of sad considering I can grow a pretty nice beard.
- I realized I'm trans at 25...sorta I guess because that's when I started to have a frame of reference for what I was feeling.
- shopping clothes sucks! Because (almost) everything is too small.
- I often see trans people talking about their negative experiences and reactions they got. Granted I'm early in transitioning, but every person I've come out to so far has been accepting if not outright supportive. Sure my mother took it some time, but so far I wasn't forced to cut out a single friend or family member (or was cut out by them), if anything it strengthened my relationship, because I could finally be more myself and more open.
- starting HRT fixed my sleeping problems, made me enjoy hot showers more and settled any uncertainties about my sexuality
- Picking out a new name for yourself rules.

As a note: I'm from Germany, where insurances cover a lot of stuff, which is nice.

[Serpentine]

Some random notes:
- beards are the worst, but I can start getting rid of mine in 1.5 months, which is kind of sad considering I can grow a pretty nice beard.
Random side-note:
Maaaan I wish beards on women were socially acceptable, because I honestly dig it aesthetically. It's sorta slowly getting there, bit by bit, though.

[noparlpf]

Also as a totally random side-note, I present orangutans as supporting evidence that dwarven women could totally have beards.

[Comrade]

- I often see trans people talking about their negative experiences and reactions they got. Granted I'm early in transitioning, but every person I've come out to so far has been accepting if not outright supportive. Sure my mother took it some time, but so far I wasn't forced to cut out a single friend or family member (or was cut out by them), if anything it strengthened my relationship, because I could finally be more myself and more open.

That's great! Considering how many LGBT people, sadly, have stories of less than ideal receptions to coming out, it's always really nice to hear that that isn't always the case.

[CWater]

Hey, first time posting in this thread.

I'm a trans woman and lesbian.

Some random notes:
- beards are the worst, but I can start getting rid of mine in 1.5 months, which is kind of sad considering I can grow a pretty nice beard.
- I realized I'm trans at 25...sorta I guess because that's when I started to have a frame of reference for what I was feeling.
- shopping clothes sucks! Because (almost) everything is too small.
- I often see trans people talking about their negative experiences and reactions they got. Granted I'm early in transitioning, but every person I've come out to so far has been accepting if not outright supportive. Sure my mother took it some time, but so far I wasn't forced to cut out a single friend or family member (or was cut out by them), if anything it strengthened my relationship, because I could finally be more myself and more open.
- starting HRT fixed my sleeping problems, made me enjoy hot showers more and settled any uncertainties about my sexuality
- Picking out a new name for yourself rules.

As a note: I'm from Germany, where insurances cover a lot of stuff, which is nice.

Welcome! And good to hear things have gone well with family and friends, it's nice to hear about positive experiences too.:smallsmile:

Also, I share your feelings about clothes shopping. Ugh. -_-
(I'm a AFAB agender person, with a cup size that is impossible to hide.)

[Sahe]

Maaaan I wish beards on women were socially acceptable, because I honestly dig it aesthetically. It's sorta slowly getting there, bit by bit, though.

Ok, so I'm like on the fence on this one, because if it were a) socially acceptable and b) common I wouldn't be bothered by it, on the other hand I hate looking in the mirror mostly because of that beard-shadow that is even super noticeable when I've just shaven.



Also as a totally random side-note, I present orangutans as supporting evidence that dwarven women could totally have beards.

I present the Character Creator of Dragon Age: Inquisition where you can give a female dwarf a beard...well a stubble.



That's great! Considering how many LGBT people, sadly, have stories of less than ideal receptions to coming out, it's always really nice to hear that that isn't always the case.


Welcome! And good to hear things have gone well with family and friends, it's nice to hear about positive experiences too.

I guess I'm skewing the odds a bit in my favor by not haven come out to people I'm pretty sure would have a problem with it, but I'm still amazed that I have such cool friends and mum. I am still kinda waiting for some blowback to come from somewhere, probably from parts of the family I'm not out to and don't deal with on a day to day basis. And to be fair from my family only my mum and my stepdad know...so there are quite a few still out of the loop.

[Derjuin]

Hey, it's been a long time since I posted anything in here... I should probably reintroduce myself.

Hi, I'm Derjuin, I'm trans but I really don't like identifying as trans (I'd rather just identify as female). Kinda knew something was up since I was about 5. Hormones have always been out of whack, HRT is finally making them right (I'm now on Estro, Spiro and Progesterone, whee, but I wish the progesterone was a higher dose) and making me feel like I'm right in my body, mostly.

I have a love-hate relationship with clothes shopping, as it's hard to find A. clothes in styles I like that fit me, B. shoes that fit my wide feet without looking like flippers, and C. a bra that fits right, all for what I can afford, especially since I'm not exactly petite.

I came here today because, while trawling the 'nets last night for pricing options on sex reassignment surgery etc., I came across various sources that say Maryland's Medicaid program actually covers SRS costs with certain requirements (HRT, therapist + doctor letters, diagnosis). I am probably way behind in this news as SRS has always been a faraway dream for me, but this seems absolutely amazing... I wanted to share it, and also maybe see if anyone else can confirm that info, since the latest sources I could find were around 2016.

[JNAProductions]

Derjuin, I have no real advice to offer, but I will say best of luck to you, and I LOVE that avatar!

[Derjuin]

Derjuin, I have no real advice to offer, but I will say best of luck to you, and I LOVE that avatar!

Thank you so much! I've found a pretty great team of surgeons within a 2hr drive of my house that can do the surgery AND they accept my insurance! Things are looking pretty awesome; I hope I can have both the consultation and the surgery done this year, but I know it's a bit of a longshot to expect to get into some of these places within a year. The main reason for this year is because I doubt I will qualify for my insurance next year; I'm being fast-tracked to a management position at Wawa, so I don't think I will be within the limits for medicaid. Of course, by next year I SHOULD qualify for Wawa's employee insurance, so maybe that will save me.

Regarding the avatar: it comes from concept art for the game Freedom Planet (and, technically, Freedom Planet 2). I'm kind of obsessed over it atm, it's pretty good. I recommend.

[Sahe]

I came here today because, while trawling the 'nets last night for pricing options on sex reassignment surgery etc., I came across various sources that say Maryland's Medicaid program actually covers SRS costs

In Germany SRS is also covered, problem is, I recently did some research an apparently all German doctors are rather inexperienced and kind of ****ty. There is a good clinic in Amsterdam, which can also be covered, but I might have to fight a little legal battle for that. Maybe it'll get better/easier once the politicians get around to reworking that Transgender law.

[Florian]

In Germany SRS is also covered, problem is, I recently did some research an apparently all German doctors are rather inexperienced and kind of ****ty. There is a good clinic in Amsterdam, which can also be covered, but I might have to fight a little legal battle for that. Maybe it'll get better/easier once the politicians get around to reworking that Transgender law.

That..... depends. University clinics like the Charité or Rechts der Isar are actually quite good at it and have a proven SRS record for quite a while. Problem is that they're educational institutions and the real "aces" will more or less always end up in the private healthcare industry. So regular research doesn't help here, you've got to contact the clinics, ask for the current staff, check the track record of that and chose where to go.

[Lycunadari]

My health insurance changed my name. :smallbiggrin: After my university, that's the second place that accepted my semi-offical trans ID (I haven't legally changed my name yet). Hopefully, I can now also tell all my doctors to change my name, which should reduce the number of times I have to see/hear my old name significantly.

[JNAProductions]

My health insurance changed my name. :smallbiggrin: After my university, that's the second place that accepted my semi-offical trans ID (I haven't legally changed my name yet). Hopefully, I can now also tell all my doctors to change my name, which should reduce the number of times I have to see/hear my old name significantly.

Awesome! *Offers high-fives, hugs, and celebratory cookies*

Here's hoping that changing your name for everything else goes swimmingly.

[Dire Moose]

We just took some measurements and found out that my breasts have now grown to a B-cup.

[137beth]

Congrats, Moose.

[Orcus The Vile]

Is call me by your name any good?

I want to like this movie so much, but I find so alien and difficult to relate to attractive, rich and young guys having fun in understanding families with no gayangst going on.

[noparlpf]

Is call me by your name any good?

I want to like this movie so much, but I find so alien and difficult to relate to attractive, rich and young guys having fun in understanding families with no gayangst going on.

Disclaimer: I have not actually watched it. This is based on a friend mentioning how terrible it is and then reading through an online synopsis. In my opinion it sounds like garbage. You can tell something is going to be bad when they start by describing the minor child as "precocious." There is no situation in which a 24-year-old should be engaging in a romantic (let alone sexual) relationship with a 17-year-old.

[Sahe]

I have not seen the movie, as a) romantic dramas are not the type of movie I watch in cinema and b) as a trans lesbian a drama about two gay men doesn't particularly interest me.

Because it was mentioned, I personally don't think that a relationship between a 17 year old and a 24 year old is particularly problematic. But then again I'm from Germany and we have ages of consent of 14/16/18 so there I have a different cultural background on that.

[noparlpf]

I think the age of consent is 16 in the state where I grew up, with "close in age" caveats for younger kids. When I was a teenager I didn't think there was anything wrong with age gaps of several years. But now I'm 24 and I can see what 17-year-olds are like from this side of it (my sister is 17 and I can guarantee she doesn't belong anywhere near people my age). Plus since recently I've been trying to deal with my baggage from a past abusive relationship I've been reading more about abuse and power dynamics and whatnot. There are huge differences in both neurologic development and life experience between differences of even 2-3 years when it comes to adolescents and young adults. In some individual cases an age gap of a few years might work ok, but it sets up the potential for an abusive situation too often for me to really consider it generally safe, let alone condone it. (Edit: I think larger age gaps are ok in adult relationships, but I don't think people are really "adult" until their late 20s. Like I'd be ok with a 40-year-old dating a 60-year-old but it's definitely sketchy if a 40-year-old is dating a 20-year-old.)

[ve4grm]

--self deleted--

[Dire Moose]

After my last post, it seemed time for a photo update again. 4 months into second puberty now.

https://i.imgur.com/ClT36bK.jpg

[Jormengand]

{scrubbed}

[Comrade]

{scrubbed}

[Lycunadari]

Why is getting a haircut so much more expensive for women than for men? I'm looking at the prices for various things (just a haircut, colour, styling etc.) and everything is at least 20€ more for women than for men. And it's not just depending on length, because the women's prices listed are often just starting prices, so it can get even more expensive if you have longer hair. (Like, a combination of washing, cutting, dying and styling starts at 68€ for women but is only 43€ for men; though apparently they plan 2 hours for women and only one for men.)
I'm trying to book an appointment with this hairdresser and have to pick online what I want to have done with my hair, and I have to decide between the much cheaper options for men or the more expensive options for women, so now I'm wondering if I could get away with picking the men's option- I have fairly short hair and I could probably pass for male from how I look, but my voice makes actually passing as male virtually impossible and I'm scared how they'd react to someone booking one of the man options who's "actually a woman". :/

[Jormengand]

{scrubbed}

[Sahe]

Why is getting a haircut so much more expensive for women than for men? I'm looking at the prices for various things (just a haircut, colour, styling etc.) and everything is at least 20€ more for women than for men. And it's not just depending on length, because the women's prices listed are often just starting prices, so it can get even more expensive if you have longer hair. (Like, a combination of washing, cutting, dying and styling starts at 68€ for women but is only 43€ for men; though apparently they plan 2 hours for women and only one for men.)
I'm trying to book an appointment with this hairdresser and have to pick online what I want to have done with my hair, and I have to decide between the much cheaper options for men or the more expensive options for women, so now I'm wondering if I could get away with picking the men's option- I have fairly short hair and I could probably pass for male from how I look, but my voice makes actually passing as male virtually impossible and I'm scared how they'd react to someone booking one of the man options who's "actually a woman". :/

Mmh, around the corner where I live is a hairdresser who has a base prices for everything regardless of gender. I don't even think they take appointments, you just walk in and wait until someone's free. I only went there once after a failed attempt of cutting my own hair they repaired the damage (and the guy had great fun joking about that :D) I've been growing my hair out since. I'm also in Germany and in the city I lived in before there was a similar place. So maybe you could look around for something similar in your area.

Also: Over Easter I'll be coming out to my two younger brothers...hope it goes well and they don't think I'm making an April fools joke

[EternalMelon]

Why is getting a haircut so much more expensive for women than for men? I'm looking at the prices for various things (just a haircut, colour, styling etc.) and everything is at least 20€ more for women than for men. And it's not just depending on length, because the women's prices listed are often just starting prices, so it can get even more expensive if you have longer hair. (Like, a combination of washing, cutting, dying and styling starts at 68€ for women but is only 43€ for men; though apparently they plan 2 hours for women and only one for men.)
I'm trying to book an appointment with this hairdresser and have to pick online what I want to have done with my hair, and I have to decide between the much cheaper options for men or the more expensive options for women, so now I'm wondering if I could get away with picking the men's option- I have fairly short hair and I could probably pass for male from how I look, but my voice makes actually passing as male virtually impossible and I'm scared how they'd react to someone booking one of the man options who's "actually a woman". :/Women's cuts are more expensive because as a general case women need more time/work to style and cut their hair (as you noted, they believe it would take twice as long to cut and style the women's hair as the men. Men tend to have not only shorter hair, but also simpler cuts, as women tend to put more . (also men tend to less worried about how their hair works as long as its functional.) Both my brother and I have historically had very long hair, and are commonly charged women's prices. On the flip-side, from what I've heard from short haired women, as long as you don't mid getting a men's cut they should be fine with charging you for less.

[Florian]

Jepp. Used to wear my hair long in my youth, for head banging and such, and was also priced like a woman. Nowadays? Maybe 15 bucks and out under half an hour.

[Lentrax]

Waxing your chest hair really hurts.

That is all.

[Sahe]

Waxing your chest hair really hurts.

That is all.

That's the reason I've stuck to shaving so far...because I'm sorta scared of the pain. And I'd have to let it grow to a decent length again, before I could do it.

[Lentrax]

It really isn’t that bad. But I think I need to find a better way to prepare my skin for it because I have red bumps from the process.

[AMFV]

Waxing your chest hair really hurts.

That is all.

When I was doing that, I always had the best luck with the foaming NAIR, although the spray NAIR wound up giving me nasty chemical burns. So that's what I'd recommend personally.

[Florian]

Waxing your chest hair really hurts.

That is all.

Most apothecaries carry some sort of skin cooling gel that more or less numbs the upper layers of your epidermis. Use one of those after sunbathing stuff when you're done, should help.

[137beth]

I always found shaving my chest to be easier than shaving my facial hair--i.e., it works pretty well. I've never tried waxing.

[Miraqariftsky]

International Transgender Day of Visibility today, right?
[also, breaking a long hiatus.]
[sorry been away. crap happened.
and sorry haven't read the latest in the thread yet... need sleep agh ]

Here are my... contributions.

https://neshi-farfarer.deviantart.com/art/Trans-Day-of-Visibility-2018-738140243

https://neshi-farfarer.deviantart.com/art/Wearing-the-Flag-738145873

https://neshi-farfarer.deviantart.com/art/Trouble-Hack-through-it-Simplicity-615318377

~~~~
Ahem!
How are y'all doing, comrades?

Forward, comrades queer.

[Al.]

*hugs*:smallfrown: It sucks that this had to happen, but continuing to keep up a toxic relationship is ultimately worse, I think.

Absolutely.

Whilst that part of your biological family are a product of their societal upbringing, and their behaviour is not their fault. It's not yours either. Don't ever feel guilty for removing yourself from interactions which make you unhappy.