LGBTAI+ #59: Will You Take This Woman To Be Your Galpal?

[137beth]

Welcome back Bisected! Actually, welcome back to everyone, now that the forum is live again.

[BisectedBrioche]

Oh yeah, obligatory selfie:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/555809801628811267/674346468861280378/20200204_154435.jpg

[Lissou]

Oh wow, you're really pretty <3

[Heliomance]

Every so often I read an empowerment thing like "you don't owe it to anyone to pass, or the way vocal feminization makes you speak is unnatural" and I feel really bad, because I WANT to pass as a quote unquote Real Girl, and I know I don't have to, but I want to, and I'm worried that that's the wrong behavior to have.

Thoughts?

Wait, you're not cis? Pretty sure you've been around since before I first came out, and I genuinely had no clue

[LaZodiac]

Wait, you're not cis? Pretty sure you've been around since before I first came out, and I genuinely had no clue

Yeah I'm a trans woman. I've been keeping it a secret for years but I've recently decided to come out due to the budding realization that my life is actually on track. I'm a year and a half deep on hormones and waiting for the psyche evaluation for surgery. Which of course hit a snag since up in Canada there's really only two groups that do the evaluation, and one of them stopped taking people 17 and up recently because the doctor responsible, in their words, vanished off the face of the earth.

So that's cool.

[The Fury]

Yeah I'm a trans woman. I've been keeping it a secret for years but I've recently decided to come out due to the budding realization that my life is actually on track. I'm a year and a half deep on hormones and waiting for the psyche evaluation for surgery. Which of course hit a snag since up in Canada there's really only two groups that do the evaluation, and one of them stopped taking people 17 and up recently because the doctor responsible, in their words, vanished off the face of the earth.

So that's cool.

Oh! For a while I'd assumed that you came out as trans a long time ago and I either wasn't around or too self-absorbed to notice until recently. Good luck with the evaluation and all, hopefully someone can take care of that sooner rather than later.

[LaZodiac]

Oh! For a while I'd assumed that you came out as trans a long time ago and I either wasn't around or too self-absorbed to notice until recently. Good luck with the evaluation and all, hopefully someone can take care of that sooner rather than later.

Yeah, you noticed around the time I first came out about it. Heliomance hasn't been around in a while though, so this is news. I actually feel kinda cool to be noticed like that by her, honestly :smallredface:.

[BisectedBrioche]

Every so often I read an empowerment thing like "you don't owe it to anyone to pass, or the way vocal feminization makes you speak is unnatural" and I feel really bad, because I WANT to pass as a quote unquote Real Girl, and I know I don't have to, but I want to, and I'm worried that that's the wrong behavior to have.

Thoughts?

Kinda late to this conversation, but to give my £0.02; "You don't owe any sort of presentation to other people (especially cis people)" and "You deserve to be comfortable with your appearance and presentation" both tie into one another, they aren't mutually exclusive.

You don't owe anyone anything, and that includes wanting to pass.

[King539]

Hoo boy so one of the people in my D&D group is transphobic so I had to leave.

I've managed to start a new D&D game with my school's GSA so that's pretty cool.

[Lentrax]

Hello lovelies!

I hope all of you are safe.

And for those of who aren’t, remember:

I love you.

[BisectedBrioche]

Funny story; last year I had a consult for bottom surgery. I was warned that there might be a 12 month wait (since I can't afford it privately and the NHS only OK so many a year).

Guess what's been classed as non-essential surgery? :smallfrown:

[LaZodiac]

Funny story; last year I had a consult for bottom surgery. I was warned that there might be a 12 month wait (since I can't afford it privately and the NHS only OK so many a year).

Guess what's been classed as non-essential surgery? :smallfrown:

Plague times sucks, especially for people like us.

I'm hesitant to say it considering the bad news but happy trans visibility day.

[Powerdork]

Love to experience constant pushback against unusual gender identity and neopronouns in literally every gaming group that has a concept that speaks to me.

Love to be unable to run a game that grips tolerant people, meets my standards, and isn't a pain to manage.

How are y'all lately?

[BladeofObliviom]

Quiet here these days. Been a long, long time since I last checked in, but I just wanted to say I hope everyone's holding up okay. You're all valid. <3

[BisectedBrioche]

It's a small bit of positivity, but I started playing Pyre yesterday, and I love how it handles pronouns.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/585077194

Your player character is found by three other characters, your initial team, in a wasteland. One feature of the dialogue is that you can mouse over highlighted words (mainly people, places and other lore important words) for a summary. Eventually one of the characters says something about your (not shown) character and refers to you as "he". The mouse over text says "they're assuming you're male, interact to change this". Clicking cycles the sentence from "he" to "she" to "they" and back again. Whichever you choose is what the other characters in the game will go with.

A moment later a character who's of a doglike race says something like "huh, you can just tell?".

[BladeofObliviom]

Huh! That's cool. I was actually thinking just recently about how I'd design a more natural-feeling chargen for an rpg concept and something like that had been bouncing around in my head; less menu, more dialogue-based.

[BisectedBrioche]

Huh! That's cool. I was actually thinking just recently about how I'd design a more natural-feeling chargen for an rpg concept and something like that had been bouncing around in my head; less menu, more dialogue-based.

Yeah, quite a few games have experimented with it (to be clear, in Pyre you never appear on screen; choosing a pronoun is basically all the customisation you get), but I've yet to see anything completely dialogue only (at the very least, they involve some sort of personality quiz).

Then again, it tends to be a nuisance on multiple playthroughs.

[LaZodiac]

Yeah, quite a few games have experimented with it (to be clear, in Pyre you never appear on screen; choosing a pronoun is basically all the customisation you get), but I've yet to see anything completely dialogue only (at the very least, they involve some sort of personality quiz).

Then again, it tends to be a nuisance on multiple playthroughs.

I mean you also get to decide if you do or do not date your magical orb ninja friend because Pyre is an incredibly good game. But still, you're not wrong.

[BladeofObliviom]

Hm. The multiple playthroughs thing is a good point. Maybe throw in a global variable that checks if you've seen the intro before and a backup quickstart option that lets you just make all the choices quickly and directly after the first time, if you want.

[BisectedBrioche]

I mean you also get to decide if you do or do not date your magical orb ninja friend because Pyre is an incredibly good game. But still, you're not wrong.

I love every part of that sentence and can't wait to learn the context.

[The Ari-tificer]

hey everyone
its been a while since ive been here
and uh
in that time ive realized im trans and lesbian
so yeah
hows yall

[The Fury]

hey everyone
its been a while since ive been here
and uh
in that time ive realized im trans and lesbian
so yeah
hows yall

Good to be out finally, yeah?

[BladeofObliviom]

Congrats! It's always good to unlock pieces of your own puzzle, no matter how it might feel in the moment. I'm glad for you. :smallsmile:

[The Ari-tificer]

Good to be out finally, yeah?
sure is
even if i do wish i was more out

[The Fury]

sure is
even if i do wish i was more out

Yeah? Personally I feel like being out can mean different things to different people. In my case, I'm mostly only out to the people I actually care about. For me, that's good enough. I gather it's a little different for you, right?

[BladeofObliviom]

Out is a process, really. There's out to close friends, out to family, out to place of employment, out publicly (which can have subcategories like "out when I go to the store, out on facebook, out on an internet forum...), and the continuous process of 'out' to new people you meet. Not necessarily in that order, but yeah. It's a thing!


Edit: This thread seems starved for content, so here's a more or less honest picrew I did cuz I was bored.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/350402413456392192/699370141313400984/94097_VODtPO6f.png

[BisectedBrioche]

hey everyone
its been a while since ive been here
and uh
in that time ive realized im trans and lesbian
so yeah
hows yall

Welcome back! I returned a couple of months ago in basically the same circumstances (ace trans lesbian, but fairly close).

If there's one thing I've found, it's that you're never completely out. Whether it's having to correct someone who misgenders you (which still happens when you have long blond hair and a bust, I guess), explain you're not remotely interested in men, or have words with a colleague who thinks it's funny to misgender you to the new hires.

[PopeLinus1]

Welcome back! I returned a couple of months ago in basically the same circumstances (ace trans lesbian, but fairly close).

If there's one thing I've found, it's that you're never completely out. Whether it's having to correct someone who misgenders you (which still happens when you have long blond hair and a bust, I guess), explain you're not remotely interested in men, or have words with a colleague who thinks it's funny to misgender you to the new hires.

That's one good thing about the internet, I suppose. If you say what your gender is you're not likely to get accidentally misgendered... although the key word there is accidentally. ****ing Ben Shapiro

[BladeofObliviom]

It's an unfortunate reality that some friggin' people are mean and will do things just to hurt you. :smallfrown:

[PopeLinus1]

It's an unfortunate reality that some friggin' people are mean and will do things just to hurt you. :smallfrown:

Hey, I have it lucky, I'm not going to be the victim of transphobic harassment or violence. I am just a humble queer with a baseball bat, doing his part to make the world a better place.

[The Ari-tificer]

Hey, I have it lucky, I'm not going to be the victim of transphobic harassment or violence. I am just a humble queer with a baseball bat, doing his part to make the world a better place.
Yeah.
On the other hand, it's extra bad in my case because I chose masc usernames when I created most of my internet accounts years ago and now people end up accidentally misgendering me when they might not have otherwise.

[halfeye]

Yeah.
On the other hand, it's extra bad in my case because I chose masc usernames when I created most of my internet accounts years ago and now people end up accidentally misgendering me when they might not have otherwise.

I think forums often allow name changes, you'd need to ask the mods to find out if this one does.

[Unavenger]

I think forums often allow name changes, you'd need to ask the mods to find out if this one does.

It does, yes. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?108349-Name-Change-Request-Thread-II-(Please-Read-Directions-Before-Posting))

[Powerdork]

It hasn't been keeping up, I'll say.

[PopeLinus1]

It hasn't been keeping up, I'll say.

I've been thinking of changing my name for non-gender purposes. Probably to something like... Despot Linus The First Of His Name

[BisectedBrioche]

The last week's felt pretty rough for trans rights:

Here in the UK (and other countries), leaders have started using COVID to sneak in transphobic legislation.
Little Britain have brought back their transphobic sketch (which Matt Lucas allegedly was sorry for).



And if leaked spoilers for The Last of Us 2 are anything to go by:
The main villain's going to be a trans woman, who murders Ellie's girlfriend.

[PopeLinus1]

The last week's felt pretty rough for trans rights:

Here in the UK (and other countries), leaders have started using COVID to sneak in transphobic legislation.
Little Britain have brought back their transphobic sketch (which Matt Lucas allegedly was sorry for).



And if leaked spoilers for The Last of Us 2 are anything to go by:
The main villain's going to be a trans woman, who murders Ellie's girlfriend.

I mean... that isn't the greatest form of representation, but that could be done in a very positive way, and... oh who am I kidding, I have eyes and a memory, I shouldn't expect positive trans representation.

[Rydiro]

The main villain's going to be a trans woman, who murders Ellie's girlfriend.Whose idea was that? That idea is so comically horrible, it can only be thought up by misanthropic nutters. Or is this a satire?

[LaZodiac]

The last week's felt pretty rough for trans rights:

Here in the UK (and other countries), leaders have started using COVID to sneak in transphobic legislation.
Little Britain have brought back their transphobic sketch (which Matt Lucas allegedly was sorry for).



And if leaked spoilers for The Last of Us 2 are anything to go by:
The main villain's going to be a trans woman, who murders Ellie's girlfriend.

This is going to rely entirely on the details as to WHY it happens.

And since this is The Last Of Us the reasons will be bad. God this ****ing sucks.

[The Fury]

Y'know, The Last of Us was always one of those games that I had a low opinion of that I felt like I needed to justify. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who didn't like it.

[Iruka]

The last week's felt pretty rough for trans rights:

And if leaked spoilers for The Last of Us 2 are anything to go by:
The main villain's going to be a trans woman, who murders Ellie's girlfriend.

Where did you find that info? From what I gathered, it sounded almost like the opposite ... (I am however not very familiar with the LoU franchise.)
Naughty Dog in general seemed rather supportive of LGBTQ issues.

According to this (https://www.sausageroll.com.au/entertainment/games/the-last-of-us-2-villains-are-reportedly-homophobic-christians/) older article the story handels LBGTQ prosecution and the bad guys are a homophobic cult.
Might be oudated?

All other stuff was about a character named Abby (who might be trans) who comes into conflict with the protagonists from the first game but acts more like a co-protagonist. Major spoilers here (https://www.resetera.com/threads/the-last-of-us-part-ii-spoiler-thread.192597/) or here (https://www.inverse.com/gaming/last-of-us-2-spoilers-reddit-abby-ellie-leaks).

[BisectedBrioche]

Where did you find that info? From what I gathered, it sounded almost like the opposite ... (I am however not very familiar with the LoU franchise.)
Naughty Dog in general seemed rather supportive of LGBTQ issues.

According to this (https://www.sausageroll.com.au/entertainment/games/the-last-of-us-2-villains-are-reportedly-homophobic-christians/) older article the story handels LBGTQ prosecution and the bad guys are a homophobic cult.
Might be oudated?

All other stuff was about a character named Abby (who might be trans) who comes into conflict with the protagonists from the first game but acts more like a co-protagonist. Major spoilers here (https://www.resetera.com/threads/the-last-of-us-part-ii-spoiler-thread.192597/) or here (https://www.inverse.com/gaming/last-of-us-2-spoilers-reddit-abby-ellie-leaks).


Hmm, it seems I got confused by complaints that Ellie's GF is killed off, and Joel getting killed.

[The Fury]

Hmm, it seems I got confused by complaints that Ellie's GF is killed off, and Joel getting killed.

OK. My complaints about the series as whole still stand though. I liked a lot of the surface traits of The Last of Us, the aesthetic and the acting. I'll even admit that it was affecting in a lot of ways. It's just... it was sad for the sake of being sad, you know? I don't think it was using the sadness to make any kind of point, it was just a depressing slog.

[PopeLinus1]

You know what I'm excited for? The same ten minute youtube videos of adult men ****ting themselves over how someone in a video game isn't one of the two character templates: straight white men, or women wearing bikinis.

Oh wait, it's already happened (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+last+of+us+2+sjw)

[BisectedBrioche]

They do seem quite irate. This amuses me.

[Rydiro]

They do seem quite irate. This amuses me.Somewhat understandable, if the subtext really is "White bad, men bad, christians bad." But whatever, its just a game.

[PopeLinus1]

Somewhat understandable, if the subtext really is "White bad, men bad, christians bad." But whatever, its just a game.

...Have you eve played a game where that was the subtext?

[BladeofObliviom]

Truth be told if I had played such a game (especially from like a real publishing company and not just a very annoyed indie dev doing it for the meme) I think I'd be so shocked by the suicidal boldness of it that I might forget to be insulted.

[PopeLinus1]

Truth be told if I had played such a game (especially from like a real publishing company and not just a very annoyed indie dev doing it for the meme) I think I'd be so shocked by the suicidal boldness of it that I might forget to be insulted.

But my point is that games like that don't exist. Some people on the internet just like to get mad when people put minorities in their media, and claim that it's "anti whichever majority group they happen to be a part of".

[BladeofObliviom]

Oh, I'm totally in agreement with you. Such games don't exist, such that I'd be genuinely and utterly shocked if I encountered one.

[Galaxander]

But my point is that games like that don't exist. Some people on the internet just like to get mad when people put minorities in their media, and claim that it's "anti whichever majority group they happen to be a part of".

Exactly. If 2 out of 8 characters are minorities, they freak out about the game "trying to be woke" which completely ruins it for them, somehow.

[PopeLinus1]

Exactly. If 2 out of 8 characters are minorities, they freak out about the game "trying to be woke" which completely ruins it for them, somehow.

If it's 1 out of 8 they'll get mad.

[The Fury]

You know what I'm excited for? The same ten minute youtube videos of adult men ****ting themselves over how someone in a video game isn't one of the two character templates: straight white men, or women wearing bikinis.

Oh wait, it's already happened (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+last+of+us+2+sjw)

Know what's hilarious? When games, (or media in general,) do this, and these clowns start making samey videos complaining about "x being woke garbage," it just makes more people aware of it and possibly curious about it.

I mean, I only learned about the She-Ra reboot because a bunch of internet blowhards were offended by some promotional images. Lucky thing too. When I watched it, I loved it.

[PopeLinus1]

Know what's hilarious? When games, (or media in general,) do this, and these clowns start making samey videos complaining about "x being woke garbage," it just makes more people aware of it and possibly curious about it.

I mean, I only learned about the She-Ra reboot because a bunch of internet blowhards were offended by some promotional images. Lucky thing too. When I watched it, I loved it.

EPIC FAIL: Woke infected Shi-Ra propaganda PROMOTED by SJW The Quartering AND EVERYTHING HATES IT

[The Fury]

EPIC FAIL: Woke infected Shi-Ra propaganda PROMOTED by SJW The Quartering AND EVERYTHING HATES IT

And now, another piece of media found its audience and everyone feels a little less alone! Thank you internet outrage guy! *salutes*

[BisectedBrioche]

https://medium.com/@CassieLaBelle/gender-dysphoria-isnt-what-you-think-6fdc7ae3ac85

Finally, a description of GD I actually vibe with.

And/or my entire childhood reduced to a damn list of bulletpoints.

[Mith]

https://medium.com/@CassieLaBelle/gender-dysphoria-isnt-what-you-think-6fdc7ae3ac85

Finally, a description of GD I actually vibe with.

And/or my entire childhood reduced to a damn list of bulletpoints.

Huh.....that article is definitely deserves a think from me.

I still stand by a better description being "genderfluid" simply because I do think that being able to switch between two "settings" is my personal desire.

But this does put some different perspectives on things.

[137beth]

https://medium.com/@CassieLaBelle/gender-dysphoria-isnt-what-you-think-6fdc7ae3ac85

Finally, a description of GD I actually vibe with.

And/or my entire childhood reduced to a damn list of bulletpoints.

Thanks for linking to this article. She describes a considerable amount of the feelings I've had that I haven't heard other people express. One thing that stood out to me:

Cultivating a personal style? That was A Thing For Other People. The idea of focusing on my body at all was deeply troubling, so I just wore the most comfortable clothes I could buy online. Hoodies, baggy jeans, etc. All male fashion styles really bothered me, but I couldn’t tell you why.

That's how I felt for most of my life. I took it as a sign that I couldn't be trans, because I fit the male stereotype of not having a sense of fashion.


Oh, I'm totally in agreement with you. Such games don't exist, such that I'd be genuinely and utterly shocked if I encountered one.
I expect big-budget media to handle minority characters differently from independent media. For example, in the world of the webcomic Sister Claire (https://www.sisterclaire.com/), straight people don't exist at all. There's no need to include a token straight character, because they authors just don't want to. I'd be shocked if a major studio/publisher ever did something like that. But I'm not shocked when I see independent media (especially by queer creators) that doesn't focus on straight white men.

Even so, I don't recall every reading/playing/watching a story where the message was "straight white men are bad." I agree that such stories either don't exist, or they are really far out on the fringe of self-published media.

[Mith]

Thanks for linking to this article. She describes a considerable amount of the feelings I've had that I haven't heard other people express. One thing that stood out to me:


That's how I felt for most of my life. I took it as a sign that I couldn't be trans, because I fit the male stereotype of not having a sense of fashion.

I am glad that I found that article, as with more introspection I wonder if I am mistaken with using a label of "genderfluid".

The issue I have is that I came across the concept of genderfluid in the context of the webcomic El Goonish Shive where there is a character defined as gender fluid who can switch between gender expressions. So I have always had the sense of "the wrong skin" every so often for a long time, and that seemed to fit, as it really came and went.

However, the fluid part means being actually OK in your current skin, and the more I think about it, the less I feel that is actually the case.

However, the nature of gender being a personal experience/self diagnostics means that I find myself highly uncertain of what qualifies as "right". I'll probably have to wait to get my own place so that I don't have to worry about reactions from family.

[Anymage]

However, the nature of gender being a personal experience/self diagnostics means that I find myself highly uncertain of what qualifies as "right".

If it helps any, the sheer proliferation of new terms means that everyone else is just winging it and making stuff too. I'll be curious how all this shakes out come the mid/late 20s, but for nowjust explore who you are and where you are in genderspace. Proper technical terminology can wait.


Even so, I don't recall every reading/playing/watching a story where the message was "straight white men are bad." I agree that such stories either don't exist, or they are really far out on the fringe of self-published media.

I do think there's a contrasting point that does exist here. You tend to find straight white men overrepresented in certain negative roles, because a minority in a negative role would draw unnecessary blowback. I want my representation to represent the whole spectrum of types, heroic and villainous.

Having said that, I'll add my voice to the chorus that I've never seen a production from any reputable company go into pure "straight white man bad" territory.

[BisectedBrioche]

If it helps any, the sheer proliferation of new terms means that everyone else is just winging it and making stuff too. I'll be curious how all this shakes out come the mid/late 20s, but for nowjust explore who you are and where you are in genderspace. Proper technical terminology can wait.



I do think there's a contrasting point that does exist here. You tend to find straight white men overrepresented in certain negative roles, because a minority in a negative role would draw unnecessary blowback. I want my representation to represent the whole spectrum of types, heroic and villainous.

Having said that, I'll add my voice to the chorus that I've never seen a production from any reputable company go into pure "straight white man bad" territory.

While it's true that there are a greater number of straight white cisgender men in villain rolls, that's more because they make up the overwhelming majority of characters full stop. It's disingenuous to claim that there's some push to only allow villains be in that group when the opposite is blatantly true.

The overwhelming majority of minority groups are only represented as villains or sidekicks when they actually appear. To the point where it can be seen in tropes (as named and described on TV Tropes) like Scary Black Man (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScaryBlackMan) and Sissy Villain (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SissyVillain). Criticism of such tropes does not mean that they aren't alive and kicking in modern media.

EDIT: Of course, it is true that a lot of the issues with representation can be solved simply by making sure any given marginalised character in a work isn't the only representative of their group in said work.

[Mith]

If it helps any, the sheer proliferation of new terms means that everyone else is just winging it and making stuff too. I'll be curious how all this shakes out come the mid/late 20s, but for nowjust explore who you are and where you are in genderspace. Proper technical terminology can wait.

That is true. It will be something that I cannot really commit to until I am out of my parent's house, as they are the centre of family gatherings, and I really do not expect much support from family over transitioning. I'd want my own place to be able to sort this out.

But I guess a detail I can add to the list as far as expression through video games and TTRPGs is that while I could be missing a few, most of the characters I really got myself in the headspace of have been women, combined with the fact that I think the only male avatar I have used for any video game rep (as few as they are) have always been fussing over female avatars, or trying to get a gender locked avatar to approximate an appearance.

20/20 hindsight and all that.

[BladeofObliviom]

I've been in a similar boat for a few months now, for whatever it's worth. Pretty awkward to confront a core pillar of one's own identity and find it wanting, but it can happen. And then there's the feeling dumb for not noticing earlier that there may have been a unifying thread to various forms of suck over the last 10-15 years...

[Mith]

I've been in a similar boat for a few months now, for whatever it's worth. Pretty awkward to confront a core pillar of one's own identity and find it wanting, but it can happen. And then there's the feeling dumb for not noticing earlier that there may have been a unifying thread to various forms of suck over the last 10-15 years...

The one that started the frantic reading was the statement of not having a sense of "this is where I'll be in 5 years" and an overwhelming feeling of "I guess I'll die young."

That's been me since puberty really. And isn't discussed as disphoria.

[BladeofObliviom]

Hard same tbh. I just thought it was depression but then it kinda never got better. Less intense, but mostly 'resolved' by just not thinking about it and having terrible future planning.

[LaZodiac]

So, I've got a question, and I feel like you guys would be more suited to answering this than me.

Say I'm commissioning art of characters from my novel who are LGBTA+, with pride flags incorporated into the design (say, a t-shirt that's the bi flag). How would I do this for the one character who is straight? I don't want to just not include her, since she is their friend and is really supportive of them, but I'm not sure how to actually go about this in a way that would work.

I realize this is a silly question, but sometimes you need to ask those sorts of things.

[Galaxander]

So, I've got a question, and I feel like you guys would be more suited to answering this than me.

Say I'm commissioning art of characters from my novel who are LGBTA+, with pride flags incorporated into the design (say, a t-shirt that's the bi flag). How would I do this for the one character who is straight? I don't want to just not include her, since she is their friend and is really supportive of them, but I'm not sure how to actually go about this in a way that would work.

I realize this is a silly question, but sometimes you need to ask those sorts of things.

Would it look wrong to have the cishet character wearing just non-coded clothes? My first instinct would be to just let them be the odd one out.

If that won't work, maybe have them have a small pride rainbow pin or ribbon or something as just a small signal of support, assuming the other characters' colors are more visually prominent.

[Unavenger]

So, I've got a question, and I feel like you guys would be more suited to answering this than me.

Say I'm commissioning art of characters from my novel who are LGBTA+, with pride flags incorporated into the design (say, a t-shirt that's the bi flag). How would I do this for the one character who is straight? I don't want to just not include her, since she is their friend and is really supportive of them, but I'm not sure how to actually go about this in a way that would work.

I realize this is a silly question, but sometimes you need to ask those sorts of things.

There exist straight flags (one that I particularly like is pink on one side and blue on the other with a little white heart in the middle; a picture of the Rain cast (http://rain.thecomicseries.com/comics/765/) features a black and white flag as well), although some of them might have connections to some of the dumb "Straight pride parades" that are mostly about being a ****, so... choose carefully if you go down that route I guess?

[BisectedBrioche]

There's also an issue of implying "straight pride" is a thing (reinforcing pride over something society considers a default and accepts without question is a little "All Lives Matter").

Just having her not wearing any coded clothes, or wearing very plain clothes (a la Skittles going black and white for pride month) is probably the way to go.

[Anymage]

So, I've got a question, and I feel like you guys would be more suited to answering this than me.

Are these individual pictures or group shots? If the latter, just have her be behind the others so her shirt doesn't show.

If everybody gets their own individual sketches, on a hunch I googled "lgbtq ally flag". Of course someone made one already.

[LaZodiac]

It would all be individual pieces.

My idea was to have her just not be WEARING a pride thing, but just holding a rainbow pride flag. By not wearing it, it feels like she's not "part" of it but just supporting it, ala holding it up like a flag. How does that sound?

[Mith]

It would all be individual pieces.

My idea was to have her just not be WEARING a pride thing, but just holding a rainbow pride flag. By not wearing it, it feels like she's not "part" of it but just supporting it, ala holding it up like a flag. How does that sound?

As someone who isn't immersed in the social aspects of LGBTAI+ culture (so self identify as a member but not active participant in larger scale cultural movements), I think it works to have hear in normal clothes and carrying a banner. She doesn't wear the symbols, for they are not hers, but she does champion them.

I think that works better than any particular "straight" symbol.

[Lissou]

Holding a flag works, my immediate answer was for that character to use the ally flag though, makes it clear that she's supportive while not herself LGBT+

[Rydiro]

It would all be individual pieces.

My idea was to have her just not be WEARING a pride thing, but just holding a rainbow pride flag. By not wearing it, it feels like she's not "part" of it but just supporting it, ala holding it up like a flag. How does that sound?You stumbled across a hole in the system. Namely, that there is no agreed symbol/representation for majority folks in the community. I second Unavenger, try to find an appropriate symbol, else you have that character standing out. Which is probably a message you want to avoid.

[Galaxander]

You stumbled across a hole in the system. Namely, that there is no agreed symbol/representation for majority folks in the community. I second Unavenger, try to find an appropriate symbol, else you have that character standing out. Which is probably a message you want to avoid.

The thing about this though is that pride symbols exist as a stand against historic and ongoing oppression and shame. It's the same sort of reason why the terms "black power" and "white power" have such massively different connotations. A "straight pride" symbol is not going to strike the tone the author wants, in my opinion.

[Rydiro]

A "straight pride" symbol is not going to strike the tone the author wants, in my opinion.It need not be a symbol of "pride", just a ... representative symbol. If you do not find some symbol, you just set the straight person apart somehow. I dont know if that is intended.

[Themrys]

Give her the suffragette flag. That's hers to wave around.

[Powerdork]

It's tiring to stress in the first post of a thread that a character uses they/them pronouns and then have someone entirely fail to notice it and misgender the character (a second time, when they were asked to reconsider the gender of the character).

Smash the binary for me, folks. I feel like I'm going to die soon.

[BisectedBrioche]

It's tiring to stress in the first post of a thread that a character uses they/them pronouns and then have someone entirely fail to notice it and misgender the character (a second time, when they were asked to reconsider the gender of the character).

Smash the binary for me, folks. I feel like I'm going to die soon.

You get the t-shirts, I'll arrange a bus.

[Lentrax]

Happy Pride Month, everyone!

Be safe, love each other.

Protect yourselves.

[BisectedBrioche]

This is a pretty good video by a trans woman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtB980efGt0) about the issue of transphobic reactions to (possibly) trans characters in media. Specifically a spoiler free description of the Last of Us 2 leaks.

[The Fury]

As we get into Pride Month, I'm feeling lonely again. Mainly just from not being able to celebrate Pride with the people that I want to share it with the most. Not really going out, I can't even say that I'm there in spirit, because my heart's just not in it. Has anyone else been feeling similar? If so, how are you dealing with it?

If you're not like me, and you're actually feeling pretty good-- that's awesome. I hope Pride's a lot of fun for you.

[BisectedBrioche]

So, I've had some good news; I had a video call with the doctor at the GIC yesterday, and apparently non essential surgeries might be allowed again soon (with the caveat that you self isolate a few weeks before), so the queue I'm in for GCS is going to start moving again!

[LaZodiac]

Oh be sure to bring up this (https://www.wired.com/story/a-patient-gets-the-new-transgender-surgery-she-helped-invent/?mbid=social_fb_onsiteshare) because it seems like it might be useful for you (and me, and people like use).

[BladeofObliviom]

Oh, that's actually fascinating. Good find! :smallsmile:

And congrats, Bisected!

On my end I got referred to an Endo recently. We'll see how that goes.

[BisectedBrioche]

Oh be sure to bring up this (https://www.wired.com/story/a-patient-gets-the-new-transgender-surgery-she-helped-invent/?mbid=social_fb_onsiteshare) because it seems like it might be useful for you (and me, and people like use).

I did ask about that. Apparently there's not much of a chance of getting it (surgeons who're trained to do it being available and all), but it's not a terrible loss (and not relevant to me, because I won't need any hair removal).

[Dire Moose]

Congratulations BisectedBrioche! I really hope you can get there soon.

I haven’t been around much lately either, but not a lot has changed for me in the last few months. I’ve passed 2.5 years on hormones and my breasts have settled out at a c-cup, and I got my name and gender legally changed last summer so I’m officially female now. That was mainly done as a matter of convenience; I still identify as genderfluid and am not 100% male-to-female, but since there are no other options at present that would be widely recognized in the legal sense, I went with female as I present that way 99% of the time. Even at work, wheee I have been presenting as a woman for the last 1.5 years.

Other than that, I’m not going any farther with transition. I have the body I want and society sees it that way too. I prefer keeping certain aspects of both sexes around and am not interested in having that surgically altered. I’m definitely considering hair removal in the future, though; as I don’t like having to constantly deal with shaving it and I get rather self-conscious about any facial hair shadow that just won’t go away.

[BladeofObliviom]

My facial hair's been driving me crazy too tbh. Shaving doesn't last long enough and I really don't practically have the time to shave daily, so I surreptitiously acquired an epilator. It hurts less than I was worried it would but even that isn't getting all the beard hair without many passes (I have a LOT of it) and I have very dark coarse hair on light skin so anything I miss is highly visible. Plus I'm on the faster-growing side so even good plucks last more like three weeks than six.

I don't even know how to begin tackling body hair.

[SerTabris]

I've had some success with laser hair removal and electrolysis (laser's mostly good for darker hairs only though). Some places might give discounts for trans customers or work with an organization that does, too. Electrolysis is unfortunately pretty slow, since they have to do one hair at a time for it.

[BisectedBrioche]

Yeah, I've had electrolysis (hair's a bit too light for laser), but it took about 3 years to get where I am now (stopping because of the lockdown has revealed there's only a few scattered hairs left).

[Dire Moose]

I’m also a blonde, so I would probably need electrolysis too.

[BisectedBrioche]

To be fair, I'm a bleach blonde, but my natural colour's a light brown, so most of my hair's too light anyway. D=

It's annoying; can't get facial hair removed without 3 years of electro, still need to bleach on top of dyeing.

[Mith]

So I read about many people have found FaceApp to be an effective egg cracker.

I figured what the hell, give it a shot and took a neutral faced photo.

Side effects may include a disgruntled cat who may not be nice to me for the next few hours. He saw that I was lying stressed out on the bed and decide to come curl up on my chest. Which was the exact wrong thing to do at the time and I shoved him off.

I decided to give it a second shot and smiled for the camera this time (I don't like smiling for cameras usually).

It is probably the happiest photo I have had of myself in years.

The only issue is that it gives me long hair in the photo that I can do nothing to manipulate due to not actually having it.

[137beth]

The part that seemed weird to me when I used faceapp was that the "feminized" version of me always had blonde hair, and I couldn't' figure out how to change it. I like my hair brown.

[BisectedBrioche]

I've heard some complaints that the app also lightens skin. This is what happens when you don't test throughly, I guess.

[Mith]

I've heard some complaints that the app also lightens skin. This is what happens when you don't test throughly, I guess.

It definitely does that. I wouldn't be surprised if they tested on mostly white people, because in my case as A Very White Person, the effect is pretty positive. But it wouldn't be quite so same on someone with a different skin tone.

[BladeofObliviom]

It's a well-known problem, and usually my go-to argument for why diversity is an inherently good thing for results, sidestepping arguments about hiring the best candidate or whatever. There was an infamous case of a "racist soap dispenser" that used an infrared sensor to detect hands placed under it. Lighter skin tones bounced the signal back just fine, but darker ones absorbed the light, as darker pigments do. In this case, the engineers behind it almost definitely just didn't have anyone dark-skinned enough to demonstrate the effect on their testing team, and so failed to catch a clear design flaw due to their demographics not representing the general public.

It doesn't surprise me that such apps would have similar issues in tuning, especially since photography in general does (see: Shirley Cards).

[137beth]

Yea, it wouldn't surprise me if it didn't work as well for people of color. On the other hand, I have brown hair, which is one of the most common hair colors for white people, yet it thinks it needs to make my hair blonde (which is much less common), so that did surprise me. It obviously isn't as bad as the racial issue (since blond people AFAIK aren't subject to systemic discrimination), but it was more surprising to me.

[LaZodiac]

Blade of Oblivion is right in general on that point but the ap you're all talking about is pretty definitively known to like, be intentionally bad about **** like this.

[BisectedBrioche]

So, I did a bit of a twitter essay on trans representation via fictional groups:

https://twitter.com/BisectedBrioche/status/1277753392530706436

[137beth]

Interesting. I've never gotten into Shadowrun so most of that was new information for me.

[LaZodiac]

I'm kinda INTO Shadowrun and I didn't know about this stuff. I have to imagine this is either severely downplayed or just excised in more modern versions of the system.

It does raise a pretty sad point though.

[BladeofObliviom]

So, uh. Got my HRT prescription today. Like, from the doctor, not in my hand. Coming in 3-5 business days by mail. Still exciting!

[Dire Moose]

Congratulations BladeofOblivion! Hope you enjoy your Elixir of Femininity/Masculinity

[BisectedBrioche]

Interesting. I've never gotten into Shadowrun so most of that was new information for me.


I'm kinda INTO Shadowrun and I didn't know about this stuff. I have to imagine this is either severely downplayed or just excised in more modern versions of the system.

It does raise a pretty sad point though.

As I said in the essay, it is getting better (to be fair, it's not that much worse than any other franchise that started in the 80's/90's). Best emphasised on how Plan 9 (the character, not the movie)'s habit of changing genders has gone from a joke, to something more like gender fluidity.


So, uh. Got my HRT prescription today. Like, from the doctor, not in my hand. Coming in 3-5 business days by mail. Still exciting!

Heck yeah! I started mine 2 1/2 years ago, and it's still the best day of my life!

[Dire Moose]

Heck yeah! I started mine 2 1/2 years ago, and it's still the best day of my life!

I started mine 2.5 years ago too! What does that make us, hormone sisters?

[BladeofObliviom]

Yeah! I'm really glad, I kind of imagined there'd be a lot more hoops than there ended up being the way I hear people talk about it, so I was surprised when the endo just wrote me a prescription without much fuss. Certainly a welcome surprise, though!

[BisectedBrioche]

I started mine 2.5 years ago too! What does that make us, hormone sisters?

Titsters? Blood-Test Sisters?

[Wizard_Lizard]

I may be gettin' gender therapy soon!

[Dire Moose]

Titsters? Blood-Test Sisters?

Hehe, “titsters.” Well, 2.5 years on hormones have definitely filled things out up there; I’m actually up to a C-cup now.

[BisectedBrioche]

Hehe, “titsters.” Well, 2.5 years on hormones have definitely filled things out up there; I’m actually up to a C-cup now.

Lucky! I'm only just up to a B.

[Talakeal]

I have two questions about terminology regarding trans-people, thought this might be a good place to ask.


1: I have known several women who self identified as lesbians who were not normally interested in men, but dated people who had the bodies of bio-sex females but who identified as trans-men. Is lesbian still the appropriate term for them (meaning the women who date trans-men, not the trans-men themselves). If not, what is?


2: I do not personally identify as a woman, but I want very much to be a woman. Is there a term for this?


Thank you, and apologies if I offended anyone, that was not my intent.

[Unavenger]

I have two questions about terminology regarding trans-people, thought this might be a good place to ask.

Trans people don't require a hyphen in the first instance.


1: I have known several women who self identified as lesbians who were not normally interested in men, but dated people who had the bodies of bio-sex females but who identified as trans-men. Is lesbian still the appropriate term for them (meaning the women who date trans-men, not the trans-men themselves). If not, what is?

Arguably, that makes them either lesbian with exceptions or oddly specific bisexual, but, like, really. They're lesbians - I don't know that many trans people would be offended at the idea that while they're presenting as the gender equivalent to their assigned-at-birth sex, people who are attracted to people of that gender may be attracted to them.

I would probably advise these people though that their relationship is likely to have problems once the man in question starts HRT and has top surgery, assuming he intends to do that.


2: I do not personally identify as a woman, but I want very much to be a woman. Is there a term for this?

No, but I would recommend some serious introspection to determine whether or not the correct term for your condition is "Trans woman in denial". Wanting to be a woman is, not to put too fine a point on it, fairly high up on the list of signs.


Thank you, and apologies if I offended anyone, that was not my intent.

Honestly? I think any question born of at least some lack of knowledge will offend someone. I on the other hand would rather people ask insensitive questions with good intentions than not do that.

[BisectedBrioche]

I have two questions about terminology regarding trans-people, thought this might be a good place to ask.


1: I have known several women who self identified as lesbians who were not normally interested in men, but dated people who had the bodies of bio-sex females but who identified as trans-men. Is lesbian still the appropriate term for them (meaning the women who date trans-men, not the trans-men themselves). If not, what is?


2: I do not personally identify as a woman, but I want very much to be a woman. Is there a term for this?


Thank you, and apologies if I offended anyone, that was not my intent.

1. If they say they're lesbians, they're lesbians...but it does carry the unfortunate implication that they didn't consider the transgender men in question men (it's perfectly possibly to find someone of a gender you're not attractive to attractive because they look like a member of it, mind you), but that would depend on the exact situation.

Just FYI, describing a trans person's AGAB (Assigned Gender At Birth) as a "bio" or "biological" sex isn't the done thing. It's used as a dogwhistle to misgender trans people in a "lol, not touching you!" sort of way, and isn't strictly accurate (and even if it was "biological sex" would be redundant). Most trans people I know (myself included) would object to being described that way. Not that I'm taking offence now, or anything; just a heads up.

2. That would depend what you mean by "identify as". A person's gender identity is a fixed value (notwithstanding gender fluid people, but they still move between fixed values); the term "identify as" is considered a dismissive and inaccurate by a lot of trans people, since while they might be described as "identifying" as a their gender, it goes a lot more deeply than that. A trans person who doesn't openly "identify" with their gender is still a trans person of that gender ("wanting to be a girl is a symptom of being a girl", as the expression goes), so...perhaps that answers your question? As the above poster mentioned, some introspection might be in order.

And don't sweat it, gotta ask to learn! :smallwink:

[137beth]

As I understand it, the term "identify as X" means "tell people you are X." If you say "I am a man," you are identifying as a man. Someone else might describe you as identifying as a man.

If you say "I identify as a man," then you are actually saying "I am someone who tells people I am a man," which seems (IMO) like an awkward and round-about way of telling people you are a man.

[Unavenger]

As I understand it, the term "identify as X" means "tell people you are X." If you say "I am a man," you are identifying as a man. Someone else might describe you as identifying as a man.

If you say "I identify as a man," then you are actually saying "I am someone who tells people I am a man," which seems (IMO) like an awkward and round-about way of telling people you are a man.

Personal identity and what you tell people you are are not the same thing. Personal identity is an internal thing - if I tell someone I'm a man or a woman because I fear that they might be violent towards me if I say I'm nonbinary, that doesn't mean I really identify as a man or a woman.

[BisectedBrioche]

As I understand it, the term "identify as X" means "tell people you are X." If you say "I am a man," you are identifying as a man. Someone else might describe you as identifying as a man.

If you say "I identify as a man," then you are actually saying "I am someone who tells people I am a man," which seems (IMO) like an awkward and round-about way of telling people you are a man.

It's effectively a hedge word; trans people use it because they feel uncomfortable asserting their gender identity. Cis people use it because they feel uncomfortable accepting trans people.

To clarify: a person's gender identity is their innate sense of their gender (not to be confused with the broader concept of gender). It's like sexuality and accents, in that someone who has no cause to question theirs might assume they don't have one, but everyone does.

[Talakeal]

Thanks for the responses!


Trans people don't require a hyphen in the first instance.

That's what I though, but my spellcheck disagreed.


Arguably, that makes them either lesbian with exceptions or oddly specific bisexual, but, like, really. They're lesbians - I don't know that many trans people would be offended at the idea that while they're presenting as the gender equivalent to their assigned-at-birth sex, people who are attracted to people of that gender may be attracted to them.

I would probably advise these people though that their relationship is likely to have problems once the man in question starts HRT and has top surgery, assuming he intends to do that.

That's what I thought as well, but I hear so much talk about "bisexual erasure" and "transwomen are real women" that it might be an outdated and offensive why of thinking. I have also heard of a bunch of new terms like gynosexual and sapphic to denote different attractions that used to just be lumped under lesbians and thought maybe one of them might be more appropriate.



No, but I would recommend some serious introspection to determine whether or not the correct term for your condition is "Trans woman in denial". Wanting to be a woman is, not to put too fine a point on it, fairly high up on the list of signs.

That's one way to look at it. Personally, I feel that it would be kind of insulting to transpeople who are out there being discriminated against for me, someone who can pass as totally cis unless I decide to tell someone otherwise, to claim that banner when I haven't lived that life.

Any elaboration or advice on the nature of said introspection or exactly what it means to be a "trans woman in denial" would be greatly appreciated.


Honestly? I think any question born of at least some lack of knowledge will offend someone. I on the other hand would rather people ask insensitive questions with good intentions than not do that.

True, but it is a very sensitive subject and I would feel bad if I insulted someone, even unintentionally. Also, lot's of people "just ask questions" as a rhetorical device to try and trap someone or create a strawman, and though that isn't what I am trying to do here, I could easily see someone reading it that way given the specific nature of my questions.

[SerTabris]

That's one way to look at it. Personally, I feel that it would be kind of insulting to transpeople who are out there being discriminated against for me, someone who can pass as totally cis unless I decide to tell someone otherwise, to claim that banner when I haven't lived that life.

Any elaboration or advice on the nature of said introspection or exactly what it means to be a "trans woman in denial" would be greatly appreciated.

Being trans doesn't really require doing any social or medical transition in itself; the order is generally that you figure out you're trans and then may decide based on that information to take hormones, change your presentation, or various other things. But it's not that those things cause you to 'become' trans, I'd say it's something more like 'if you are trans, then those are things you may wish to do'. That is, the person is trans the entire time and may gradually discover that and take steps with their body and presentation because of that. I spent a long time trying to figure out what exactly a 'man' was in order to show why I wasn't one, but ultimately it's just that I didn't want to be and it wasn't how I felt about myself, so I wasn't one. Depending on your situation, it may be helpful to see a psychologist or counselor with the right specialties (as long as there is a good trans-affirming one in your area, and other considerations allow).

[BladeofObliviom]

That's what I thought as well, but I hear so much talk about "bisexual erasure" and "transwomen are real women" that it might be an outdated and offensive why of thinking. I have also heard of a bunch of new terms like gynosexual and sapphic to denote different attractions that used to just be lumped under lesbians and thought maybe one of them might be more appropriate.

This has been kind of a hot button thing in Twitter and other places and it's still a bit flame-war-y in certain circles, fair warning. I don't believe there's a real consensus even among queer communities yet, and the answers on this subject may vary from group to group. Just giving fair warning, it's a messy thing sometimes.



That's one way to look at it. Personally, I feel that it would be kind of insulting to transpeople who are out there being discriminated against for me, someone who can pass as totally cis unless I decide to tell someone otherwise, to claim that banner when I haven't lived that life.

Any elaboration or advice on the nature of said introspection or exactly what it means to be a "trans woman in denial" would be greatly appreciated.

So, stuff like this is a little different for everyone. Gender is complicated and in large part cultural; we're living in broadly cisnormative societies with a strong gender binary, but this is, while common historically, not necessarily the norm. That said, I'll take a crack at answering this, but take it with a grain of salt and the understanding that this is rooted in my experience, which may not apply perfectly to your situation or anyone else's.


I'm a trans woman. I'm pretty darn sure at this point. I finally admitted to myself that I wasn't comfortable with masculinity and that there was maybe merit to examining this possibility for myself in mid-February, so this is a fairly recent development. I've been on this very forum for close to ten years at this point, and have met a lot of people and made friends presenting as a cis male.

While February was when I admitted it to myself, it wasn't like a switch flipped. I'm not even sure what triggered the realization, exactly, but as I looked back and examined the evidence it started to paint a clearer picture of what I'd been denying and suppressing. This wasn't the first time I'd questioned this, even; this was just the time that stuck (in November, I had a short bout of questioning in which I compared my feelings to the described feelings of a close friend of mine who is trans, and decided her description of dysphoria didn't match up well so I must be cis. It doesn't really work like that, I gatekept myself, whoops).

You express a worry about claiming a banner when you haven't lived that kind of life yet, but...well, honestly, I haven't either. I'm only "out" online, though some of that online includes close friends I know IRL and trust, and just don't see in person because of COVID. I've been pretty lucky so far. Everyone I've come out to directly has been openly supportive, and in the larger communities I've come out to everyone has been either openly supportive or been too afraid of rocking the boat to say anything and just quiet about it. So I haven't really "lived that life" yet either.

I recently started HRT though, and while nothing physical has really happened yet (aside from my skin softening up a little, which is nice), I cannot overstate the good this has done for my mental health. It's...tranquil, in a way I haven't felt in a very long time. Stress doesn't hit me as hard as it used to. I feel like I was always wound up tight like a spring, never realizing how bad it was because it was normal, and now that tension is just gone. I'm free, in a lot of ways. I didn't realize or understand just how much I was suffering before the pieces came together and I suddenly understood the steps I could take to piece by piece make it stop.

Not everyone's situation is like mine. In retrospect, I definitely experienced dysphoria for a long time without the slightest understanding of what it was, and my dysphoria was different from my friend's in a lot of ways - she knew from a pretty young age that there were some very specific parts of her she hated, and knew what she wanted instead. Mine was more like...a sort of dark cloud. I couldn't point to the source, but everything felt underwater, my emotions, my reactions to the world. And it got a little darker every day, until I began to wonder if light were even real.

And if your situation is like mine...well, that is living that life. It's not discrimination, it's not virulent hatred from reactionaries, it's just a quiet, persistent suffering, a listlessness. There were happy times, or at least times that seemed happy in comparison to the rest, but at least for me it was a shallow half-life wracked by imposter syndrome, persistent depressive episodes, and constant self-sabotage.

[Wilko92]

(A friend who has frequented the forum has suggested I post here so, here I am)

I think I might be trans. But I think I'm also deep in denial about the possibility of being trans (I keep invalidating my feelings, coming up for excuses about how I feel, blaming my weight/autism/cPTSD). I've looked into gender fluid and non binary but those don't feel right. I'm pretty sure I've internalised negative perceptions and stereotypes of trans. I don't know what to do, how to challenge that thinking.

Please help?

[deltamire]

(A friend who has frequented the forum has suggested I post here so, here I am)

I think I might be trans. But I think I'm also deep in denial about the possibility of being trans (I keep invalidating my feelings, coming up for excuses about how I feel, blaming my weight/autism/cPTSD). I've looked into gender fluid and non binary but those don't feel right. I'm pretty sure I've internalised negative perceptions and stereotypes of trans. I don't know what to do, how to challenge that thinking.

Please help?
While I can't give definite advice, because every person's experience with being trans (or not) is different, my first instincts for having internalised negative perceptions and stereotypes that affect your view on a group would be to find ways to replace and lessen those stereotypes with positive, or even just neutral ones. You're definitely not alone in feeling like you've somehow poisoned your opinions about a community, I had it with my own sexuality specifically, but, most importantly, it's a fixable problem. The best way to go about removing said negative perceptions is to first go around them, because a majority of them aren't going to be logicked away, because they're probably not based on logic at all. You can't try and face them head on right away, because by internalising them you're going to be automatically believing them. Once you've got new ammunition, as it were, in the form of other opinions, you can work out what exact type of internalised negativity you've got going on.

I had a lot of success in challenging my own perceptions of being trans with consuming content and media that presented the trans community in a positive light, and also by finding mentors and people I could look up to, both online and in real life. There's been a huge outpour of trans ownvoices (aka media depicting trans people written by trans people) in the last three or four years, much of it genuinely good fiction on its own, and that's not to mention all the back catalogue of the internet as well. If you look up trans ownvoices on google, you'll get a lot of 'em. Even just seeking out trans people online who create content or talk about their experiences, about being trans or not, can help normalise it.

Regarding the making of excuses to convince yourself you're not trans, I feel you. The terror of lying awake and thinking, 'oh s**t, have I been making it all up and am I just faking it?' is definitely a problem. My best advice for that would be to first ask yourself why you think you could be pretending? What benefits do you get for somehow pretending (as if being trans is not something deeply personal, but rather a membership you have to have the right requirements for) to be trans? The answer is probably going to be very little, because 'pretending' to be trans isn't, like, a thing people do. It just isn't. I've met a lot of trans people in my life, and almost all of them experienced the exact same feeling of thinking they had somehow convinced themself they were trans. I haven't ever met a person I knew who somehow was faking it unconsciously. Why would you, who seems to genuinely be worried and seems to have done the leg work to try and learn, who has come to ask questions, be any different?

And, finally, regarding the terminology; if they don't feel right, then don't use 'em! The best thing about being trans is that it's not a one size fits all experience. In your first sentence, you referred to yourself as simply 'trans', and it's perfectly fine to just use that word. If you don't like that either, you don't even have to use any word at all. Maybe further down the line you'll find a word that fits like a glove. Maybe you won't, and that's okay. All that matters is that you feel more comfortable than when you started, and that you're working to be happy in your skin.

Looking at this post now, sorry for the huge ol' blocks o' text. TL;DR, what you're experiencing is perfectly fine, you're not alone in these feelings, you're probably not faking, you don't need to know exactly what you are straight out the gate, and your best bet is to find other trans people, in fiction, online, or in real life, who you can relate to and work it out from there.

[BisectedBrioche]

(A friend who has frequented the forum has suggested I post here so, here I am)

I think I might be trans. But I think I'm also deep in denial about the possibility of being trans (I keep invalidating my feelings, coming up for excuses about how I feel, blaming my weight/autism/cPTSD). I've looked into gender fluid and non binary but those don't feel right. I'm pretty sure I've internalised negative perceptions and stereotypes of trans. I don't know what to do, how to challenge that thinking.

Please help?

There's an old trick in decision making; assign a choice to "heads" flip a coin. If it comes up heads and you're happy with that, good; if it comes up heads and you're disappointed, you know what you actually wanted now. Gender's kind of the same way.

One experiences their gender identity (that is to say, the innate sense of your own gender) much like sexuality, your favourite colour or the ideal length of a piece of string. Only your experience and feelings are a reliable measurement of yours, and nobody else can tell you that.

If presenting a certain way makes you happier than not (allowing for external factors, like other people being twatnuggets), then there is very little room to doubt that you're on the right track as far as your gender identity is concerned.

[Tvtyrant]

I have a question that this seems like the best place to get answered. Apologies if I word it badly, I'm not great at formulating questions on this subject.

In Bi-Erasure articles I read online they talk about how the default assumption is that everyone ends up with a man in the end. If you are a bi-woman the fear is you are going to break up with your girlfriend for a guy, while if you are a bi-man the fear is that you will break up with your girlfriend for a guy. This in part is why bi-men are less acceptable on dating sites than bi-women (see OK cupid for instance.)


In Psychology Today and a number of other sites I read that men tend to take more then they give in a relationship, both in terms of emotional and physical labor (less chores, more selfish, etc.) Men are also stereotypically worse in bed, being more selfish and less giving (also want shorter and more frequent sex.) Men are also depicted as being less attractive in general, physically and personality wise.

Now of course it will vary by individual, but at least stereotype wise this is contradictory. Why would the default assumption be that people want to do more emotional, physical and romantic labor? Why would bi or pan individuals date men given the alternative?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

In Bi-Erasure articles I read online they talk about how the default assumption is that everyone ends up with a man in the end. If you are a bi-woman the fear is you are going to break up with your girlfriend for a guy, while if you are a bi-man the fear is that you will break up with your girlfriend for a guy. This in part is why bi-men are less acceptable on dating sites than bi-women (see OK cupid for instance.)

In Psychology Today and a number of other sites I read that men tend to take more then they give in a relationship, both in terms of emotional and physical labor (less chores, more selfish, etc.) Men are also stereotypically worse in bed, being more selfish and less giving (also want shorter and more frequent sex.) Men are also depicted as being less attractive in general, physically and personality wise.

Now of course it will vary by individual, but at least stereotype wise this is contradictory. Why would the default assumption be that people want to do more emotional, physical and romantic labor? Why would bi or pan individuals date men given the alternative?

Uh...because men are sexy and awesome? :smallamused:

Note that all of the stereotypes you mentioned are from an exclusively female perspective. There's no mention of the equal and opposite stereotypes that gay guys or straight gals always worry about their bi boyfriends leaving them for women, that women are more picky and demanding when it comes to chore schedules and cleanliness standards, that women don't like sex and only grudgingly give it to their partners, and so on. (Which, to be clear, are just as incorrect and handwavey as the ones you mentioned, just pointing out that they exist too.)

Regarding ending up with one gender or another, in many gay male circles it's a quite common experience/fear that bi men tend to end up with women in the end due to social and family pressure to live the heteronormative lifestyle even if they personally lean more toward men while there's no expectation that bi men would leave their girlfriends or wives for men (though the "guys hooking up on the DL" thing does happen). Anecdotally, all of the 7ish bi guys I know dated mostly men to start (either exclusively guys or something like guy-gal-guy-guy-gal-guy-guy-etc.), then mostly women later, then ended up marrying women; I have no idea how that local trend compares to the global one, though.

Regarding a general preference for women over men, I googled around for some Psychology Today articles and didn't find any exact matches for what you're talking about here, but in general (A) that sounds more like a bunch of sitcom clichés than any actual research and (B) there's a whole spectrum of bi-ness and no evidence that most bi people lean toward women over men, or even whether more bi people are 50/50 or 90/10 or any other ratio.

One thing that is fairly well-supported by research (though not without controversy) is a general "women are wonderful" effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect), so it's likely that the apparent stereotype contradiction you're seeing is people on dating sites and psychology sites and similar just throwing a bunch of pro-women stereotypes in a blender and regurgitating them even if the actual stereotypes themselves don't make sense together.

[Tvtyrant]

Uh...because men are sexy and awesome? :smallamused:

Note that all of the stereotypes you mentioned are from an exclusively female perspective. There's no mention of the equal and opposite stereotypes that gay guys or straight gals always worry about their bi boyfriends leaving them for women, that women are more picky and demanding when it comes to chore schedules and cleanliness standards, that women don't like sex and only grudgingly give it to their partners, and so on. (Which, to be clear, are just as incorrect and handwavey as the ones you mentioned, just pointing out that they exist too.)

Regarding ending up with one gender or another, in many gay male circles it's a quite common experience/fear that bi men tend to end up with women in the end due to social and family pressure to live the heteronormative lifestyle even if they personally lean more toward men while there's no expectation that bi men would leave their girlfriends or wives for men (though the "guys hooking up on the DL" thing does happen). Anecdotally, all of the 7ish bi guys I know dated mostly men to start (either exclusively guys or something like guy-gal-guy-guy-gal-guy-guy-etc.), then mostly women later, then ended up marrying women; I have no idea how that local trend compares to the global one, though.

Regarding a general preference for women over men, I googled around for some Psychology Today articles and didn't find any exact matches for what you're talking about here, but in general (A) that sounds more like a bunch of sitcom clichés than any actual research and (B) there's a whole spectrum of bi-ness and no evidence that most bi people lean toward women over men, or even whether more bi people are 50/50 or 90/10 or any other ratio.

One thing that is fairly well-supported by research (though not without controversy) is a general "women are wonderful" effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect), so it's likely that the apparent stereotype contradiction you're seeing is people on dating sites and psychology sites and similar just throwing a bunch of pro-women stereotypes in a blender and regurgitating them even if the actual stereotypes themselves don't make sense together.
I had not considered the strait-passing issue (the amount I know about things can fill a cup!)

The pro-women part isn't directly related to bi or pan people, I'm referring to these (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/couples-housework-study_l_5e50037fc5b6a4525dbaa1bf)kinds (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/02/14/gender-equality-millennial-men-still-dont-do-laundry-house-cleaning/4748860002/)of (https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/how_an_unfair_division_of_labor_hurts_your_relatio nship)articles (https://www.npr.org/2020/05/21/860091230/pandemic-makes-evident-grotesque-gender-inequality-in-household-work). If the assumption is that a male partner is going to shove most of the work towards their partner it seems odd to date males.

Tyler Wood comment (https://outline-prod.imgix.net/20200128-5odZxR1KrZQ4ojDIjPUs?auto=format&q=60&w=2000&).

Edit: Here (https://theoutline.com/post/8607/heteropessimism-why-women-date-men)is an article talking about what I am talking about. The author boils the issue down to "why date men" and "because of social constructs rewarding heteronormative relationships" so that seems pretty cut and dry.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I had not considered the strait-passing issue (the amount I know about things can fill a cup!)

The more you know! (https://xkcd.com/1053/)


The pro-women part isn't directly related to bi or pan people, I'm referring to these (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/couples-housework-study_l_5e50037fc5b6a4525dbaa1bf)kinds (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/02/14/gender-equality-millennial-men-still-dont-do-laundry-house-cleaning/4748860002/)of (https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/how_an_unfair_division_of_labor_hurts_your_relatio nship)articles (https://www.npr.org/2020/05/21/860091230/pandemic-makes-evident-grotesque-gender-inequality-in-household-work). If the assumption is that a male partner is going to shove most of the work towards their partner it seems odd to date males.

Tyler Wood comment (https://outline-prod.imgix.net/20200128-5odZxR1KrZQ4ojDIjPUs?auto=format&q=60&w=2000&).

Edit: Here (https://theoutline.com/post/8607/heteropessimism-why-women-date-men)is an article talking about what I am talking about. The author boils the issue down to "why date men" and "because of social constructs rewarding heteronormative relationships" so that seems pretty cut and dry.

Thanks for the links. Looking at those, the thing they all have in common is that they're all talking about heterosexual couples, at least implicitly.

The first four articles are largely about the impact of gender roles. The first and fourth talk about heterosexual couples explicitly (and reference or link to other articles showing same-sex couples divide things more evenly with better communication about it); the second and third articles talk about male/female equality in relationships, views of masculinity, female spaces, and similar (which don't apply in LGBT+ relationships); and all four talk about the impact of strict gender roles and gendered chores and such (which are generally relaxed or at least more thoughtful in LGBT+ relationships).

The last article says...a lot of things to which my reaction can't really be discussed in this forum, but it does give off some very strong bitterness vibes. Its conclusion that "dating men in the context of a heterosexual relationship sucks, why would anyone want to?" seems to be coming from the same place as someone who comes out of a bad divorce saying "being married sucks, why would anyone want to?"; in both cases, it's generalizing one narrow and jaded viewpoint onto a much broader context, a viewpoint that others with different backgrounds and without those bad experiences don't necessarily share.

Summing all that up, LGBT+ individuals can be perfectly happy about dating men even with all the stereotypes flying around because most of that simply doesn't apply to their relationships, either explicitly (because it's not a male/female relationship) or implicitly (because in a bi male/bi female relationship or polycule or whatever, gender roles tend to be openly discussed and mixed-and-matched because they're already bucking social norms so there's no need or ability to unconsciously go along with societal expectations).

[Tvtyrant]

The more you know! (https://xkcd.com/1053/)



Thanks for the links. Looking at those, the thing they all have in common is that they're all talking about heterosexual couples, at least implicitly.

The first four articles are largely about the impact of gender roles. The first and fourth talk about heterosexual couples explicitly (and reference or link to other articles showing same-sex couples divide things more evenly with better communication about it); the second and third articles talk about male/female equality in relationships, views of masculinity, female spaces, and similar (which don't apply in LGBT+ relationships); and all four talk about the impact of strict gender roles and gendered chores and such (which are generally relaxed or at least more thoughtful in LGBT+ relationships).

The last article says...a lot of things to which my reaction can't really be discussed in this forum, but it does give off some very strong bitterness vibes. Its conclusion that "dating men in the context of a heterosexual relationship sucks, why would anyone want to?" seems to be coming from the same place as someone who comes out of a bad divorce saying "being married sucks, why would anyone want to?"; in both cases, it's generalizing one narrow and jaded viewpoint onto a much broader context, a viewpoint that others with different backgrounds and without those bad experiences don't necessarily share.

Summing all that up, LGBT+ individuals can be perfectly happy about dating men even with all the stereotypes flying around because most of that simply doesn't apply to their relationships, either explicitly (because it's not a male/female relationship) or implicitly (because in a bi male/bi female relationship or polycule or whatever, gender roles tend to be openly discussed and mixed-and-matched because they're already bucking social norms so there's no need or ability to unconsciously go along with societal expectations).
Okay, that makes sense. I guess one of the discrepancies I was seeing was the idea that a bi-woman would end up with a straight man, which given the option seems like a solid pass. A Bi-man can't really end up with a straight man I suppose, so the counter proposition doesn't exist.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Okay, that makes sense. I guess one of the discrepancies I was seeing was the idea that a bi-woman would end up with a straight man, which given the option seems like a solid pass. A Bi-man can't really end up with a straight man I suppose, so the counter proposition doesn't exist.

I mean a bi man can end up with a straight woman, which is kinda a counter proposition?

[AdAstra]

Thanks for the responses!



That's what I though, but my spellcheck disagreed.

That's one way to look at it. Personally, I feel that it would be kind of insulting to transpeople who are out there being discriminated against for me, someone who can pass as totally cis unless I decide to tell someone otherwise, to claim that banner when I haven't lived that life.

Any elaboration or advice on the nature of said introspection or exactly what it means to be a "trans woman in denial" would be greatly appreciated.

Well, for context, I'm nonbinary, and I am generally very gender-neutral-looking without any effort on my part, I do not generally tell people about my gender identity unless asked, and I generally don't care what even my family thinks of my gender identity. On the other hand, plenty of nonbinary people do not look androgynous, and this can cause issues for them even when they tell people because some people don't believe being nonbinary is a real thing or assume all nonbinary people look androgynous. But for me, because of both the way I look, and the way I choose to present myself, my transition was, by most metrics, easy. Doesn't make me not trans, at least to my knowledge.

Basically, you would not be "disrespecting" anyone by the simple act of being trans. Not being actively discriminated against for being trans does not make your gender less real, regardless of what gender you pass as or whether you tell people or not. Your experiences might be different, but that wouldn't change the nature of your gender. Plus, everyone (or at least the vast majority of people) who has "lived that life", has had a point where they had not "lived that life". And whether you decide to live that life or not, what you feel inside still matters.

As for "trans and in denial", my personal experience has boiled down to "what would make me happier?". Or in this case, what would make you happier? What feels right to you? There are all kinds of ways that people transition, and ways they experience that. None of them are "improper". EDIT: Specifically, if your doubts about being trans stem primarily from how you think other people would feel about you or whether or not you'd be doing things "properly", those doubts are probably not evidence that you're not trans, at least looking at it with my logic.

[Talakeal]

Well, for context, I'm nonbinary, and I am generally very gender-neutral-looking without any effort on my part, I do not generally tell people about my gender identity unless asked, and I generally don't care what even my family thinks of my gender identity. On the other hand, plenty of nonbinary people do not look androgynous, and this can cause issues for them even when they tell people because some people don't believe being nonbinary is a real thing or assume all nonbinary people look androgynous. But for me, because of both the way I look, and the way I choose to present myself, my transition was, by most metrics, easy. Doesn't make me not trans, at least to my knowledge.

Basically, you would not be "disrespecting" anyone by the simple act of being trans. Not being actively discriminated against for being trans does not make your gender less real, regardless of what gender you pass as or whether you tell people or not. Your experiences might be different, but that wouldn't change the nature of your gender. Plus, everyone (or at least the vast majority of people) who has "lived that life", has had a point where they had not "lived that life". And whether you decide to live that life or not, what you feel inside still matters.

As for "trans and in denial", my personal experience has boiled down to "what would make me happier?". Or in this case, what would make you happier? What feels right to you? There are all kinds of ways that people transition, and ways they experience that. None of them are "improper". EDIT: Specifically, if your doubts about being trans stem primarily from how you think other people would feel about you or whether or not you'd be doing things "properly", those doubts are probably not evidence that you're not trans, at least looking at it with my logic.


Not everyone's situation is like mine. In retrospect, I definitely experienced dysphoria for a long time without the slightest understanding of what it was, and my dysphoria was different from my friend's in a lot of ways - she knew from a pretty young age that there were some very specific parts of her she hated, and knew what she wanted instead. Mine was more like...a sort of dark cloud. I couldn't point to the source, but everything felt underwater, my emotions, my reactions to the world. And it got a little darker every day, until I began to wonder if light were even real.

And if your situation is like mine...well, that is living that life. It's not discrimination, it's not virulent hatred from reactionaries, it's just a quiet, persistent suffering, a listlessness. There were happy times, or at least times that seemed happy in comparison to the rest, but at least for me it was a shallow half-life wracked by imposter syndrome, persistent depressive episodes, and constant self-sabotage.

Ok, so first off, I want to say that I am only talking about myself here.

I feel that I would be happier as a cis-woman, but less happy as a transwoman, and I think it would make the psychological issues Blade of Obliviom mentioned worse.

I personally don't feel like I could ever pass as a biosex woman, I went through puberty as a male and currently look like a cross between Boromir and Silent Bob; I feel like any attempt to transition would draw attention to my maleness rather than hide it.

If they came out with some miraculous new technology that could physiologically transform me into a biosex female, I would do it and never look back, but I think I would still feel like a faker and live in fear of being found out.

For example, in college (about 15 years ago now) I presented myself as female to my online friends in an MMO. To this day, I have nightmares about them finding out that I was only pretending to be a woman.

I am not sure why I feel this way, it is probably due to how harshly my parents reacted to gender "transgressions" when I was a child. But that's where I am at.

[Anymage]

Question: if I could stuff you into a gendertransmogrifier machine that would make you completely indistinguishable from a cis woman, down to the ovaries and the chromosomes, but the woman you came out had an awkward frame that was nowhere near being conventionally feminine, would you still go for it? Because a lot of cis chicks do have issues where they don't come across as properly feminine.

If your ideal is a certain type of woman and you just like to explore genderspace, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that. (In fact, personally speaking, I think that "exploring genderspace" as a broad concept can often be handier that trying to either give every individual patch a name, or trying to find which name that someone somewhere made up is the proper one for you. You're allowed to explore.) And if you'd be content as the dumpy gal because that would still let you be a woman, you're allowed to experiment with presentation at your own pace and comfort level.

[Talakeal]

Question: if I could stuff you into a gendertransmogrifier machine that would make you completely indistinguishable from a cis woman, down to the ovaries and the chromosomes, but the woman you came out had an awkward frame that was nowhere near being conventionally feminine, would you still go for it? Because a lot of cis chicks do have issues where they don't come across as properly feminine.

If your ideal is a certain type of woman and you just like to explore genderspace, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that. (In fact, personally speaking, I think that "exploring genderspace" as a broad concept can often be handier that trying to either give every individual patch a name, or trying to find which name that someone somewhere made up is the proper one for you. You're allowed to explore.) And if you'd be content as the dumpy gal because that would still let you be a woman, you're allowed to experiment with presentation at your own pace and comfort level.

Absolutely, yes. I would probably take steps to make myself look more feminine afterwards, up to and including cosmetic surgery, but I would do it regardless.

[Anymage]

Surgeries and therapies can do a lot to make trans women look more feminine, as I'm sure many people in this thread can give clear before and after evidence of.

Honestly, though. If you've been having these feelings for long enough that your parents gave you grief for exploring gender play as a kid, that's definitely worth talking with a gender therapist about. Doubly so if they messed you up with shame about it. We can quibble over whether you're considered "trans" when you start having the feelings that your birth sex doesn't quite fit, or only after you're living your day-to-day life as your preferred gender. (Hot take: I prefer the latter, because I like words to have clear and specific meanings.) Anyone who tries to gatekeep you over semantics is being ****ty, and I fully encourage you explore your femininity both on your own and with a therapist. Either you find a happier path to life as a woman or you find out that the reality isn't quite what you'd hope, but either way you're ahead. There's no reason not to, and no harm being done to anybody by exploring.

[137beth]

For what it's worth Talakeal, I have been taking estradiol for over a year now, but at a low enough dose that I can still hide my breasts without needing binders. I have not socially transitioned or told more than a few people that I am taking E or that I'm not a man, but it has had an enormous positive impact on my mood already. Depending on what aspects of "being a woman" you want, it's possible you could do something like that without having to worry about passing. But I'd second everyone else who recommended talking to a therapist about it.

[genderlich]

Anyone have ideas for a butch bride's wedding outfit? I don't want to wear a dress but I also don't want to wear, like, a pantsuit, or a vest.

[BisectedBrioche]

So, the last few days have been busy...but I've really been noticing the results of HRT over the last 2 years and 8 months (I'm sure you can guess the specifics without violating forum rules...), and the gender euphoria is unreal! :smallbiggrin:

[Dire Moose]

I’m happy things are going so well for you.

[AdAstra]

Congrats on the marriage and HRT results, you two! Not really well-versed in fashion of any kind, so sorry to say I can’t contribute much on that front, though the whimsical side of me says flowy dress with long jacket on top, plus cape.

[137beth]

Not sure if anyone here cares, but long-running webcomic Slightly Damned (https://www.sdamned.com/) just confirmed that a major character is genderfluid (they've hinted at it for awhile but this is the first clear confirmation). And, congratulations Genderlich and Bisected!

[DarthArminius]

I still haven't grown the balls to come out. Maybe I could come out after this Pandemic is finally over. This forking sucks.

[Mith]

I still haven't grown the balls to come out. Maybe I could come out after this Pandemic is finally over. This forking sucks.

My general policy is that caution is generally warranted. When you feel like you are safe enough to come out, you can do so. There is no reason to beat yourself up in the meantime.

[Wizard_Lizard]

My general policy is that caution is generally warranted. When you feel like you are safe enough to come out, you can do so. There is no reason to beat yourself up in the meantime.

Kinda like how I’m out to one group of friends that’s clearly lgbt friendly, but to my other group of friends who I’m sure will accept me and whatever, but like.. less sure.

[DarthArminius]

Kinda like how I’m out to one group of friends that’s clearly lgbt friendly, but to my other group of friends who I’m sure will accept me and whatever, but like.. less sure.

I am terrified of coming out. This sucks so much. I am not afraid of violence, so much as I am ostracization.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I am terrified of coming out. This sucks so much. I am not afraid of violence, so much as I am ostracization.

Yeah I get that. It’s completely fair, and you are valid even if you don’t come out.. ever. Hopefully you find some people who will accept you.
Like, for me, the group of friends I’m not out to, I’m not so scared of that, I just don’t want them to treat me.. like.. differently. But like, with the other group, they pretty much know me as non binary and almost always have, they”re much newer friends than the first group, Who have known me since primary school.

[BisectedBrioche]

Trans thing #5346437: Getting your eyeliner complimented by a customer at work, and spending the rest of the day wondering if that's something a cis woman would say to any woman, or if she just saw you as a bloke wearing makeup.

[Unavenger]

Trans thing #5346437: Getting your eyeliner complimented by a customer at work, and spending the rest of the day wondering if that's something a cis woman would say to any woman, or if she just saw you as a bloke wearing makeup.

I'm pretty sure that's something that a cis woman would say to any woman, because I'm pretty sure my female friends have had their eyeliner complimented more than once in my presence before.

[BisectedBrioche]

Yeah...I guess I'm just insecure. :smalltongue:

In more unambiguously good news, I just had a phone call with the endro. No progesterone, but they're upping my oestrogen! =3

[DarthArminius]

If there's anyone who has suffered from conversion therapy, could someone PM me ? I have some memories I've been repressing, I need some advice on how to deal with this problem.

[Xihirli]

I've finally met up with my partner after being separated for months by germs.

[LaZodiac]

So, one of the side effects of my hormones and stuff is that it makes me nauseous. I don't FEEL nauseous, but more and more evidence is mounting up that no, no I am nauseous when on this medicine and I just don't know what it feels like to not be nauseous.

Anyone got any tips? I'd like to stop vomiting at the drop of my hat please. It's making it hard to be alive.

[137beth]

I haven't noticed any nausea from HRT, but nausea is a side-effect I have noticed of other medicine I've been taking for almost 20 years, so maybe I just don't notice it anymore?

In any event, I take my other medicine with a lot of food, and that helps me. (Although, if the hormone medicine making you nauseous is synthroid, which can't be taken with food, then that won't help, but I'm guessing given what thread you're on that you mean something else).

[LaZodiac]

I haven't noticed any nausea from HRT, but nausea is a side-effect I have noticed of other medicine I've been taking for almost 20 years, so maybe I just don't notice it anymore?

In any event, I take my other medicine with a lot of food, and that helps me. (Although, if the hormone medicine making you nauseous is synthroid, which can't be taken with food, then that won't help, but I'm guessing given what thread you're on that you mean something else).

Yeah I take my meds with food, and can do so. Spiro and Estradiol, if curious.

[137beth]

Well, that's unfortunate. I also take spiro and estradiol, and like I said I don't notice any nausea from them, but it could just be because I'm used to it from other medicine. (I take spiro twice a day, once without food (alongside levothyroxine), and once with food). In any event it's definitely something you should ask your doctor about.

[JusticeZero]

I had horrible reactions to spiro. No nausea, but some people might? I switched to injections twice a week, and dropped the antiandrogens. I still have to take vitamins to keep my testosterone levels from going too low.

Currently frustrated. My closest friends online now are trans girls, and they are voice averse. Having a hard time filling an online game that I realized I NEEDED voice for. Quarantine leaves me voice starved.

For me, too much text RP and my ears start ringing in ways I associate with dysphoria; I spent lots of time in online text RP in the closet—both figurative and literal—in silence.

My FIRST and highest priority in transition was my voice. I know not everyone does, but for me, the first time I realized I didn't have to pretend to be a guy, I started practicing my voice. Led to amusing situations when I would get stuck in girl voice and start confusing people, then after a while, it stuck. Suddenly, I could use voice chat again.

Sadly, people I want to play with flee when they hear about the voice part. Makes me feel a bit cut off from people I like to interact with.

I don't want to go calling out for random cis folk to enter my place of safety of one other T-girl and a few supportive folk who know me. The closest so far is the one that's almost certainly trying not to hurt my feelings, as the game is pretty much 180° opposite of what she plays. Hmph. I sensed some awkwardness, too. I can appreciate it being not her thing.

I feel like this is cutting me apart from people, and it's bugging me. Is this just going to be a thing where I have to learn how to find the super secret cis girl network because my community isn't there for me? I don't know where to even start looking for the safe hideouts there.

I already have two cis guys there, and it's already too easy for them to start powering through planning. They don't try to, they just do. I don't want to add even more of that, especially after I was basically run out of my last game I was a player in by a loud and impulsive cis guy making everything I was trying to do irrelevant. I'm way too meek for that, stereotypical as it might be.

[BisectedBrioche]

Well, it's been 4 weeks and no letter about my increase in dosage. RIP me, I guess.

[137beth]

@JusticeZero
I don't have any advice for you, but do you have any recommendations for how to start voice training?

[Mystic Muse]

@JusticeZero
I don't have any advice for you, but do you have any recommendations for how to start voice training?

https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/1ske7b/mtf_voice_training_regimen/

This has been shared with me. I need to actually start on it.

I am getting an epilator in the mail tomorrow. Would it be best to buzz everything I plan on epilating tonight?

I got the Braun S9-E890 because it sounded really good, and I found a new one on sale.

[BladeofObliviom]

https://www.reddit.com/r/transvoice/comments/d3clhe/ls_voice_training_guide_level_1_for_mtf/
(https://www.reddit.com/r/transvoice/comments/d3clhe/ls_voice_training_guide_level_1_for_mtf/)
I used this one when I got started on voice training in February, though I haven't referenced it in some time; I had an easier time of it than many people seem to and past about the six week mark most of what I've done has been building muscle memory. My voice is pretty good now, though. I recently had a health insurance call center rep quietly go "I'm getting a <legal name>? ...That can't be right." after I gave him my medical record number to look me up.


On the subject of epilation, I would definitely recommend buzzing whatever you intend to epilate fairly short before you start. 3-5mm is the usual recommended length, but definitely under a centimeter and more left than a clean shave. And, uh, brace yourself. It can hurt quite a bit the first time, depending on location, though gets much less painful on repeat application.

[Ranger Mattos]

@JusticeZero
I don't have any advice for you, but do you have any recommendations for how to start voice training?

From a quick glance over the previous two posts, the resources linked seem solid. The Voice Pitch Analyzer app is pretty good, and remember to record yourself and listen back to review how you sound. (Disclaimer: I haven't put much effort into voice training myself. Here and there and have made noticeable improvement, but still get misgendered over it all the time)

Also, another collection of tips pasted from elsewhere:

- RAISING PITCH ISN'T AS IMPORTANT AS IT SEEMS. Feminizing your resonance and acoustic assumptions are far more effective in sounding femme.
- Singing helps
- Elevate don't constrict voice when raising pitch
- Smiling helps (accoustic assumptions - vowels)
- Touch don't Push with vocal tension (e.g. tongue on top of mouth for 'ng' sounds)
- Should always feel comfortable and maintainable
- Resonance: where does your voice 'go' when you say things -- chest (masculine), throat (neutral), teeth (feminine)
- Resonance: 'mmmmm' hum helps set (feel side of nose), this is why "Mmmm, meeeee, meeeeet meeee" exercise helps set both pitch and resonance.
- Take your time -- if you want to move pitch up it's better to do a comfortable raise and slowly increase range than go 'breathy' to force it (risks damaging throat, breathy also ****s up resonance bad)
- Practice regularly -- if you only do voice work for 10 minutes a day and use male voice everywhere else it's harder to teach your brain 'this is how we speak now'
- Even if it's just 25% of your practice time, try to move your standard voice in a feminine direction so that you learn "this is just how I speak now"
- It will take around 2-3 months of training for it to become "permeant", just don't give up. Work in small Htz increments.
- Pretend you're speaking to a child (not in what you say but how you say it)
-If you can: slow down. Take your time speaking. This lets you have spare brain power to check your voice
speaking quickly also 'constricts' your pitch variance a bit (only matters if you're a motormouth like me though)


So, one of the side effects of my hormones and stuff is that it makes me nauseous. I don't FEEL nauseous, but more and more evidence is mounting up that no, no I am nauseous when on this medicine and I just don't know what it feels like to not be nauseous.

Anyone got any tips? I'd like to stop vomiting at the drop of my hat please. It's making it hard to be alive.

I know this is a bit old so maybe you've already had the chance to bring it up with your doctor, but definitely do so if you haven't yet. I can only imagine that it's either your hormone levels are screwed up, or a side effect of spiro.

[Mystic Muse]

On the subject of epilation, I would definitely recommend buzzing whatever you intend to epilate fairly short before you start. 3-5mm is the usual recommended length, but definitely under a centimeter and more left than a clean shave. And, uh, brace yourself. It can hurt quite a bit the first time, depending on location, though gets much less painful on repeat application.

Excuse me while I scream, because this is legitimately one of the most physically painful things I've ever done to myself.

It will be worth it though. Beauty is pain.

[thirsting]

But hair is beautiful. I'd date a werewolf...




Also, another collection of tips pasted from elsewhere:

- RAISING PITCH ISN'T AS IMPORTANT AS IT SEEMS. Feminizing your resonance and acoustic assumptions are far more effective in sounding femme.
- Singing helps
- Elevate don't constrict voice when raising pitch
- Smiling helps (accoustic assumptions - vowels)
- Touch don't Push with vocal tension (e.g. tongue on top of mouth for 'ng' sounds)
- Should always feel comfortable and maintainable
- Resonance: where does your voice 'go' when you say things -- chest (masculine), throat (neutral), teeth (feminine)
- Resonance: 'mmmmm' hum helps set (feel side of nose), this is why "Mmmm, meeeee, meeeeet meeee" exercise helps set both pitch and resonance.
- Take your time -- if you want to move pitch up it's better to do a comfortable raise and slowly increase range than go 'breathy' to force it (risks damaging throat, breathy also ****s up resonance bad)
- Practice regularly -- if you only do voice work for 10 minutes a day and use male voice everywhere else it's harder to teach your brain 'this is how we speak now'
- Even if it's just 25% of your practice time, try to move your standard voice in a feminine direction so that you learn "this is just how I speak now"
- It will take around 2-3 months of training for it to become "permeant", just don't give up. Work in small Htz increments.
- Pretend you're speaking to a child (not in what you say but how you say it)
-If you can: slow down. Take your time speaking. This lets you have spare brain power to check your voice
speaking quickly also 'constricts' your pitch variance a bit (only matters if you're a motormouth like me though)


Well this is weird. Definitely not transperson, but I've never really felt like a 'man' in any way (nor a woman, mostly barely even a human), but reading about those voice practises yesterday made me realize, maybe I should try this. Try to go for something more neutral. Just slight modifications to how to use my voice no one but me would likely notice.. I don't know where I'm going with this... just, thanks.

[Mystic Muse]

But hair is beautiful. I'd date a werewolf...

And to each their own, but my body hair has been the source of seversl dysphoric attacks, some of which were really intense. I'm not going through that again.

[BladeofObliviom]

Excuse me while I scream, because this is legitimately one of the most physically painful things I've ever done to myself.

It will be worth it though. Beauty is pain.

Oh dear. Yeah, it's rough the first time! I started with my face, and...yeah.


Well this is weird. Definitely not transperson, but I've never really felt like a 'man' in any way (nor a woman, mostly barely even a human), but reading about those voice practises yesterday made me realize, maybe I should try this. Try to go for something more neutral. Just slight modifications to how to use my voice no one but me would likely notice.. I don't know where I'm going with this... just, thanks.

For what it's worth I've been at this for 7 months and aside from the people I'm actually out to, among the people I interact with regularly, almost nobody has noticed anything different about my voice. Change blindness is a hell of a drug.

And...obviously self-identification is completely your own business but you may find it worthwhile to look into the nonbinary spectrum if you haven't? I know a few Agender people, it's a thing.

[Mystic Muse]

Oh dear. Yeah, it's rough the first time! I started with my face, and...yeah.


Yeah, doing it in sections spread apart time-wise because oof.

Also, I hope it's clear that these are my own standards specifically for how I want to look. They do not apply to anyone else, and I do not judge anyone for not feeling the same way.

Hell, I wouldn't judge anyone for saying "body hair sucks, but I'm not using an epilator because I don't feel like torturing myself to get rid of it."

This is just my lowest expense option for dealing with it.

[BladeofObliviom]

It does get better, at least. Using it on my face now hurts about as much as a brief pinch with fingernails (though not digging in). Which is to say not much.

[Lissou]

I'm cis so I don't know if it translates well, but when I did epilate I found strips less painful than an epilator for sensitive areas.

[JusticeZero]

@JusticeZero
I don't have any advice for you, but do you have any recommendations for how to start voice training?
I started doing my daily commute with a recorder in hand. I would run through all of the vowel-consonant and consonant-vowel sounds, then try adjusting my voice in different ways and saying a sentence, listening to it to examine what that did.
Drink lots of water. Do trills to loosen up, gargle your way through your entire comfortable vocal range.
Listen to how women talk. You can get away with a lot less actual range change if you nail the prosody; older cis women who smoke frequently have pitches well into the neutral-cismale range, but people hear them as feminine. Find a snippet of audio of a woman talking in a way that strikes you as feminine in ways you like, and work through it repeatedly just duplicating the rhythm, the way the pitch flows.
If your throat gets tired, stop, drink water.
Also, there should be a relaxed smile feel in your throat to avoid tension, I find.

[137beth]

Whelp, I saw my endo today and I can go up on estradiol:smallsmile:

[Wizard_Lizard]

Whelp, I saw my endo today and I can go up on estradiol:smallsmile:

Congratulations!

[Dire Moose]

It’s officially been three years since I began my transition.

[137beth]

It’s officially been three years since I began my transition.

Congratulations to you!

[GreenDM]

It’s officially been three years since I began my transition.

Hell yeah!

[BisectedBrioche]

You ever just stop and think about how some people (even well meaning allies) just see trans people as just "wanting" to be our gender or only think of us as the result of medical transitions, and just can't...

[Lissou]

Yeah, it's always very, very weird. Even Dan Shive who writes EGS, who is genderfluid, wrote a genderfluid character and used "gender I want to be at the time" instead of "gender I am at the time" and it felt really odd. I think the more awareness is raised, the more people realise that gender is something you are, but as you said even well-meaning people will sometimes make that mistake. I guess you have to start somewhere...

[me_ow]

It’s officially been three years since I began my transition.

congrats ! love the will power you have

[Dire Moose]

And as of today, it’s been three years since I started taking estrogen.

Looking at myself now, I can’t help but wonder if a lot of my old friends would even recognize me anymore.

[BisectedBrioche]

I unexpectedly got a phone call this morning. I've got a date for lower surgery at last (it's been over a year since I had my consultation). <3

[LaZodiac]

Congratulations!

I still need to wait to get my consultations and confirmations... the one doctor who could have been available to do the first of my two confirmations literally vanished off the face of the earth like a year ago so I'm probably going to be waiting another two years still...

[Talakeal]

Hello everyone!

I have a couple more questions about being transgender, and I am hoping someone here can help me understand. Again, I apologize in advance if I offend someone, but I am genuinely curious.


First, my understanding is that transgender people have a gender identity which differs from their biological sex. But I have heard a number of people claim that they or others were born transgender* or that gender is something that transcends biology or sociology. But, I also understand gender to be a social construct, something of which babies (or people living outside of society) should have no concept for, correct?

When I hear people say this, it sounds to me like they are being overly politically correct, or subscribing to some sort of new age mysticism. Am I missing something here?


On a related note, can someone explain to me what it actually means to be nonbinary? Every time I look it it up, all I find are platitudes or comparisons, which don't actually explain the issue to me. Is it just a rejection of the notion of gender? Is it a desire to be without biological sex?


Thanks!



*Obviously, people who are in some way biologically intersex could be an exception to this.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

But, I also understand gender to be a social construct, something of which babies (or people living outside of society) should have no concept for, correct?

"Gender is a social construct" is often misunderstood. People often assume that "social construct" means "arbitrarily made up," as if people just woke up one day, whipped up gender roles out of whole cloth, stuck everyone with one label or another, and the rest is history.

But a social construct is a conceptual framework built around something real that already exists. Money is a social construct, all ephemeral numbers and arbitrary currencies, but it represents a store of very real value attached to real things like resource scarcity and the value of time. Nations are a social construct, all imaginary lines on maps and arbitrary decisions in treaties, but every nation represents a very real common history and culture shared by a particular group of people.

Gender is the same way. The specific two (or three, or more) genders that exist in a given society are "merely" social constructs, but they have their basis in biological variation (e.g. differences in brain structure that correlate with different sexes), societal needs (e.g. necessary divisions of labor within society that appeal to different groups of people), and other factors.

It's interesting that you bring up babies and what they have concepts for, because studies show that they do, in fact, show an awareness of and preference for gendered things at a very young age. Studies like this one (https://www.ndsu.edu/news/view/detail/32542) show that babies naturally gravitate to either "object-oriented" (and stereotypically-male) toys like trucks or "person-oriented" (and stereotypically-female) toys like dolls (or both, or neither) at a very young age, regardless of what their parents try to get them to play with because boys are "supposed" to play with trucks and girls are "supposed" to play with dolls.

These differences persist with age, where people show strong gender-based personality differences (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680) and differences in career preferences (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3166361), largely independent of geography, social class, and similar factors. These are statistical trends, of course, so there are outliers in all directions, but the observations hold in general.

So basically, genders are conceptual "buckets" build around observed differences in different kinds of humans, and in the West where these are based solely on the two main biological sexes (though again, other cultures have more or different gender divisions), someone who is trans-gender is someone who fits into a different bucket they were assigned based on their sex. Transgender men have brain structures, personality traits, career preferences, and so forth characteristic of cisgender men, so because gender is about stuff like personality and societal roles, transgender men and cisgender men belong in the same "bucket," and the same goes for transgender women and cisgender women.


On a related note, can someone explain to me what it actually means to be nonbinary? Every time I look it it up, all I find are platitudes or comparisons, which don't actually explain the issue to me. Is it just a rejection of the notion of gender? Is it a desire to be without biological sex?

Coming up with a discrete categorization scheme for continuous data is easy when you're working with one variable; if you try to categorize people on "likes wearing pink" vs. "doesn't like wearing pink" vs. "doesn't know or doesn't care about wearing pink" for instance, every person fits in exactly one category. When you try to do that for lots of different variables at once, however, it gets more and more difficult to categorize things, the specific categories necessarily shrink, and you have more and more outliers that don't fit in any category.

Most people in Western society fit in either a "male/masculine" gender bucket or a "female/feminine" gender bucket, either because they fit in one naturally (they've thought about it and are comfortable with one of the two, they were assigned one at birth and don't really think about it after that, etc.) or have had to pick one (they don't really feel like they feel fit one or the other but they fit mostly in one so sticking with that is good enough).

"Nonbinary" is somewhat of an umbrella term--someone who is agender feels and expresses their (lack of) gender identity differently from someone who's bigender, for instance--but in general someone who is nonbinary is someone who looks at both gender buckets and feels that they don't fit in either one of them well enough to pick one and so take a third option. This variation means that what it "means" to be nonbinary will vary as well, which makes sense because it's defined by what it's not rather than by what it is and so covers a lot of conceptual ground.

[BisectedBrioche]

Hello everyone!

I have a couple more questions about being transgender, and I am hoping someone here can help me understand. Again, I apologize in advance if I offend someone, but I am genuinely curious.


First, my understanding is that transgender people have a gender identity which differs from their biological sex. But I have heard a number of people claim that they or others were born transgender* or that gender is something that transcends biology or sociology. But, I also understand gender to be a social construct, something of which babies (or people living outside of society) should have no concept for, correct?

When I hear people say this, it sounds to me like they are being overly politically correct, or subscribing to some sort of new age mysticism. Am I missing something here?


On a related note, can someone explain to me what it actually means to be nonbinary? Every time I look it it up, all I find are platitudes or comparisons, which don't actually explain the issue to me. Is it just a rejection of the notion of gender? Is it a desire to be without biological sex?


Thanks!



*Obviously, people who are in some way biologically intersex could be an exception to this.

Something to remember is that the definition of transgender is "a gender identity which differs from the gender they were assigned at birth". That is to say it's less a factor of a person's anatomy and more that their Assigned Gender At Birth (AGAB) isn't one that fits them. Sex doesn't come into it so much ("biological sex" even less so, since it's not a scientific term; depending on how "biological" is defined, it's either redundant or nonsensical).

I find a lot of people who are less informed on trans issues start to understand them better when it's explained that way. For further reading, I'd suggest looking up the medical definition of "sex" (which involves 5 factors, only one of which is used to define someone's AGAB).

[Chen]

It's interesting that you bring up babies and what they have concepts for, because studies show that they do, in fact, show an awareness of and preference for gendered things at a very young age. Studies like this one (https://www.ndsu.edu/news/view/detail/32542) show that babies naturally gravitate to either "object-oriented" (and stereotypically-male) toys like trucks or "person-oriented" (and stereotypically-female) toys like dolls (or both, or neither) at a very young age, regardless of what their parents try to get them to play with because boys are "supposed" to play with trucks and girls are "supposed" to play with dolls.


I’m not sure there’s a good conclusion to draw from this study. The last paragraph is:

“There were no differences in preferences at four months, but by 12 months there were. At 12 months, female babies had no preference between dolls and trucks, but male babies preferred trucks. These preferences were correlated with the types of toys in the home,” Woods said. “Given that parents select their child’s toys, it is possible that parents influence their babies’ toy preferences through exposure to toys more so than overt encouragement to play with the toys.”

The bolded part seems to imply it has nothing to do with “innate” gender but still environmental factors.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I’m not sure there’s a good conclusion to draw from this study. The last paragraph is:

“There were no differences in preferences at four months, but by 12 months there were. At 12 months, female babies had no preference between dolls and trucks, but male babies preferred trucks. These preferences were correlated with the types of toys in the home,” Woods said. “Given that parents select their child’s toys, it is possible that parents influence their babies’ toy preferences through exposure to toys more so than overt encouragement to play with the toys.”

The bolded part seems to imply it has nothing to do with “innate” gender but still environmental factors.

There are a lot of studies on the issue that had similar outcomes, that one was just the first article I found where the conclusion wasn't paywalled. Here's (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-019-01624-7) a meta-analysis showing that, while babies choosing gendered toys happened more when parents or researchers forced a choice or had some influence in toy selection, the effect was still present and statistically significant even without that. Here's (https://www.pitt.edu/~bertsch/Todd_et_al-2016-Infant_and_Child_Development.pdf) a study where young children were studied in their actual preschool, where the "pre-existing set of toys they're familiar with" issue was similar between the school and their home, and strong gender differences were observed. And here's (https://www.parentingscience.com/girl-toys-and-parenting.html) a study about how infant play styles by gender strongly correlate with measured testosterone levels and with the play styles of monkeys of the same gender, despite a possible confounding factor of boys being stigmatized for playing with "girl toys" and so expressing a preference for male-gendered toys and against female-gendered toys noticeably more than girls did for female-gendered toys and against male-gendered toys.

[Rydiro]

Could you elaborate on your idea of social constructs?
It sounds like you describe them as not entirely being real and instead social agreements about real things.
Your money example was especially confusing, because I think money itself has a very real value. And not just a societally agreed upon one.
Or your example that nations are social constructs while cultures are not.

[Talakeal]

Gender roles develop over time in response to biological differences between the sexes. But they change over time and from culture to culture, and there are so many individual exceptions that it is impossible for me to buy that any specific expression of gender is biologically hardwired into our biology.

But, the whole issue of whether gender is a social construct kind of sidesteps the issue, unless the argument is being made that being biologically intersex, having gender nonconforming interests, and being trans are all the same thing, which I dont think anyone is saying (but please correct me if i am wrong).

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Your money example was especially confusing, because I think money itself has a very real value. And not just a societally agreed upon one.

Money doesn't have any intrinsic value. The US has, as a society, decided that if you put a sticker on a box of cereal that says "$5" I can hand you five little pieces of green cloth or one piece of green cloth with different drawings on it or a big bag full of metal discs and you'll give me that box of cereal because you think that the green cloth pieces are worth the same as that box of cereal, and you think that because you can turn around and hand those green cloth pieces to someone else to receive a different thing labeled with a squiggly S and some numbers, and so on and so forth until something called an "economy" spontaneously develops.

There's nothing natural or universal about the US dollar; we didn't find it anywhere, we made it up out of, if you'll pardon the pun, whole cloth. There's nothing inherently special about the dollar; there are dozens of other currencies in the world and the reason why one uses a dollar instead of a franc or a ruble are entirely cultural, regional, and historical and have nothing to do with the physical dollar itself. There's no intrinsic value to the dollar; something can be worth $4 today and $5 tomorrow and $2 the day afterwards, and if the US government declared that they're changing their currency to giant stone wheels tomorrow the little pieces of green cloth would lose all their perceived value.

What money is is a representation of value, something that lets you exchange one kind and quantity of value for another kind and quantity of value in a manner that everyone agrees upon--and yet there are still kinds and quantities of value that cannot be exchanged in that way, as there are things in the world that cannot be purchased or sold for any amount of money.


Or your example that nations are social constructs while cultures are not.

A culture is a set of shared values, stories, languages, and so forth (and in smaller cultures also things like family ties), and is something that arises more or less naturally when you put any group of humans together. Stick a bunch of people of any ages and backgrounds by themselves in a room for a year and when you check in on them at the end of that year you'll find that they've developed their own idiosyncratic methods of communication, their own references and in-jokes, their own set of values regarding who's allowed to work the food dispenser or change the channel on the TV, and so on, and that culture will be different than it would be if you repeat the experiment with a different group of people.

The modern conception of the nation-state, meanwhile, didn't show up until the 1400s at the earliest and didn't show up everywhere in the same form or at the same time. Further, nationhood can be externally granted or revoked by an external party without affecting a culture at all (e.g. Poland being divided between Germany and the Soviet Union during World War 2 didn't suddenly make the people in the German portion either not-Polish or suddenly German) and a culture can exist (or cease to exist) without respect to the nation in which it exists (e.g. a French family moving to Spain doesn't suddenly become culturally Spanish or cease to be culturally French).


In the same way, gender is a socially-constructed representation and approximation of underlying biological, psychological, etc. trends and realities, and genders are socially-constructed categories that do not always map one-to-one to specific sets of underlying biological, psychological, etc. facts and traits.

[Hish]

Gender as a term describing people was popularized by second wave feminists in the 1970s. It was adopted to disitinguish between biological differences between males (called sex), and differences in behavior, roles, etc. (called gender). These feminists then argued that "Gender is a social construct" - that is to say, the behaviors, expectations, and so forth of men and women (gender) are based on society, not any deep biological differences.

[Talakeal]

Gender as a term describing people was popularized by second wave feminists in the 1970s. It was adopted to disitinguish between biological differences between males (called sex), and differences in behavior, roles, etc. (called gender). These feminists then argued that "Gender is a social construct" - that is to say, the behaviors, expectations, and so forth of men and women (gender) are based on society, not any deep biological differences.

Agreed.

Which is why the notion of someone being born transgender is so confusing to me.

[LaZodiac]

Agreed.

Which is why the notion of someone being born transgender is so confusing to me.

Here's the most basic explanation I can give for this.

The trans person in question always knew that they were trans. So they were born trans.

[Murk]

Agreed.

Which is why the notion of someone being born transgender is so confusing to me.


I'd also like to add that the original feminism being referenced (and which started the gender/sex differentiation) is - at its bare essentials - incompatible with the concept of being transgender.
The hardcore feminists of the end of the previous century believed that the only differences between men and women at birth were physical ("sex"), and that everything else ("gender") was put on to people from the outside.
Basically meaning that gender was purely an external concept.
The notion of a "gender identity" would be very strange to them - because identity implies that it comes from you. Saying "I identify as [male]" would only confuse them, because to them gender was about how others treated you.

Being born with a gender identity would baffle them even more, because the whole point of their definition of gender was that it was not something you were born with (but something that others forced you in to). Being born with a gender would go against the definition of gender they used.

Of course this is the theory of it, and I'm sure even then this might have been the least-nuanced version of it.
And things have changed in the past fifty years. And that's fine.

[BisectedBrioche]

Gender as a term describing people was popularized by second wave feminists in the 1970s. It was adopted to disitinguish between biological differences between males (called sex), and differences in behavior, roles, etc. (called gender). These feminists then argued that "Gender is a social construct" - that is to say, the behaviors, expectations, and so forth of men and women (gender) are based on society, not any deep biological differences.


Agreed.

Which is why the notion of someone being born transgender is so confusing to me.


I'd also like to add that the original feminism being referenced (and which started the gender/sex differentiation) is - at its bare essentials - incompatible with the concept of being transgender.
The hardcore feminists of the end of the previous century believed that the only differences between men and women at birth were physical ("sex"), and that everything else ("gender") was put on to people from the outside.
Basically meaning that gender was purely an external concept.
The notion of a "gender identity" would be very strange to them - because identity implies that it comes from you. Saying "I identify as [male]" would only confuse them, because to them gender was about how others treated you.

Being born with a gender identity would baffle them even more, because the whole point of their definition of gender was that it was not something you were born with (but something that others forced you in to). Being born with a gender would go against the definition of gender they used.

Of course this is the theory of it, and I'm sure even then this might have been the least-nuanced version of it.
And things have changed in the past fifty years. And that's fine.

It would be more accurate to say a subset of said feminists (second wave, or radical feminists*) excluded trans people; known as the Gender Critical movement, or as of the 2010's "TERFs" (Trans Exclusive Radical Feminists**).

The term gender was actually coined in the 50's to mean "the non-tangible sex traits". This basically boiled down to things like "personality" and "whatever human consciousness is", and would be what we now specifically call someone's "Gender Identity" and (to a lesser degree) their sexuality. The radfem movement broadened it to include sociopolitical factors like roles in society.

It should be noted that a lot of anti-trans movements actually began based not on different interpretations complex theories of what gender is, and how womanhood should be defined, but on a conspiracy theory which: a) Defined trans people purely by medical transition and b) lumped medical transitions in with scary new technology like atomic power and cloning. This lead to an idea (as outlined in the key trans exclusive text "Transsexual Empire") that trans woman would somehow be used to replace cis women (don't ask how this even works; it hinges on the idea that cis men are more interested in trans women than cis women).

* So called because unlike the Liberal Feminist movement of the suffragettes (retroactively defined as first wave feminism), they believed that society had to be massively altered to address sexism. As opposed to a simple "give women the same rights as men" solution.

** Trans inclusive radfems still exist today, but it's a much less popular school of feminism than it once was, so a large majority of feminists who do have stuck with it out of disdain for third wave/intersectional feminism, and so are often transphobes. Although the majority of old school radfems are trans as inclusive as the whole movement.

[Rydiro]

EDIT: QUOTE
Money doesn't have any intrinsic value...
Thanks for the clarification.
I disagree with most of what you said. So I doubt your definition of social constructs is a useful one for me.
Anyway, I don't want to interrupt the thread with definitions any further.

[Talakeal]

This is starting to make sense. I have always been someone of a radical feminist in spite of, or perhaps because of, being born a man, and I am starting to see that feminist theory and “transgender theory” are fundamentally incompatible in some ways.

I am starting to understand why there are so many vocal TERFS out there, even if I wholeheartedly disagree with their bigotry and discriminatory stances.

I have wanted to be a woman basically my entire adult life, and have thought about transitioning, but I have been told by several people that even if I transitioned, I wouldn’t be transgender because I don’t feel that I already am a woman, and because I didn't feel that way as a child, which really throws me for a loop.

[BisectedBrioche]

This is starting to make sense. I have always been someone of a radical feminist in spite of, or perhaps because of, being born a man, and I am starting to see that feminist theory and “transgender theory” are fundamentally incompatible in some ways.

I am starting to understand why there are so many vocal TERFS out there, even if I wholeheartedly disagree with their bigotry and discriminatory stances.

I have wanted to be a woman basically my entire adult life, and have thought about transitioning, but I have been told by several people that even if I transitioned, I wouldn’t be transgender because I don’t feel that I already am a woman, and because I didn't feel that way as a child, which really throws me for a loop.

Could you explain why? The majority of feminists are trans inclusive, and accept trans women as women (or, y'know are trans men, women and enbies themselves).

The "I always knew" narrative is an old one, and not really that accurate. Largely perpetuated by doctors whose samples excluded any trans people who didn't meet their criteria (meaning trans people either went along with it, or couldn't medically transition.

Much like sexuality, it can take a lifetime to work out your gender identity. Or you could be like me, and only realise a bunch of things made sense in retrospect.

Also, cis men don't typically think about being women. I'll just clarify that for you.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I have been told by several people that even if I transitioned, I wouldn’t be transgender because...I didn't feel that way as a child, which really throws me for a loop.


The "I always knew" narrative is an old one, and not really that accurate.[...]

Much like sexuality, it can take a lifetime to work out your gender identity. Or you could be like me, and only realise a bunch of things made sense in retrospect.

Yep. In the gay community there's a whole spectrum of guys from "I knew when I was 4 that I wanted to marry my best guy friend and I never had to 'come out' because it was obvious to everyone" to "I didn't have the slightest idea I might be gay until my mid-40s and coming out to my wife and kids was painful," because when one figures out one's sexuality is highly dependent on a lot of different circumstances from amount of information one has on LGBT issues to one's degree of self-loathing and self-repression and more.

While gay men who didn't realize their sexuality until later in life do tend to get a lot of flak from the rest of the community, it's never (or at least rarely is) exclusionary "You're not a real gay because you weren't singing along to Lady Gaga in kindergarten!" rhetoric, but more along the lines of a teasing "Oh c'mon, how did you not figure it out? The signs were all there!" Anyone who tries to tell someone else their own sexuality (or gender identity) is ignored, and rightly so, because the best authority on whom you're attracted to and what gender best describes you is you.

So don't listen to the gatekeepers. Feeling like you are or wanting to be a woman for years is way up there on the "How do I know I'm trans?" checklist, and if that's how you feel you should pursue that and ignore the people who are trying to force a certain label on you or deprive you of a certain label.

[Talakeal]

Could you explain why? The majority of feminists are trans inclusive, and accept trans women as women (or, y'know are trans men, women and enbies themselves).

The "I always knew" narrative is an old one, and not really that accurate. Largely perpetuated by doctors whose samples excluded any trans people who didn't meet their criteria (meaning trans people either went along with it, or couldn't medically transition.

Much like sexuality, it can take a lifetime to work out your gender identity. Or you could be like me, and only realise a bunch of things made sense in retrospect.

Also, cis men don't typically think about being women. I'll just clarify that for you.

Of course most feminists are accepting of trans people. But there are some, very vocal ones, who aren’t, and I think it may be in part because they are coming from different assumptions about what gender actually means.


I don’t think of myself as cis, but I am not sure what I do think of myself as.

[Rydiro]

I don’t think of myself as cis, but I am not sure what I do think of myself as.Do you feel like you need to have some descriptor for yourself?

[Tvtyrant]

Of course most feminists are accepting of trans people. But there are some, very vocal ones, who aren’t, and I think it may be in part because they are coming from different assumptions about what gender actually means.


I don’t think of myself as cis, but I am not sure what I do think of myself as.

A large part of that is that for many second wave feminists and anti-trans feminists women's gender is seen as a subordinate one, essentially a cultural prison. Third wave feminism and trans people threaten the idea that it is innately worse to be a woman, because otherwise why would men want to be women?

So then it becomes an assumption that it is as a way to invade women's safespaces, because men are oppressors.

Sources: Ex was trans exclusionary and we had a lot of fights about it, leading me to research it a bit. I'm no expert.

[Anymage]

Of course most feminists are accepting of trans people. But there are some, very vocal ones, who aren’t, and I think it may be in part because they are coming from different assumptions about what gender actually means.

If you look at predictions and other testable statements, feminists have a horrible track record of getting things right. So if you have a hard time squaring an observed reality with feminist statements, it should be clear which one should be jettisoned.


I don’t think of myself as cis, but I am not sure what I do think of myself as.

There are a frankly dizzying number of words for different points in genderspace out there, with more being created on a regular basis. If you really want to put in the time looking through gender based discussion areas, you might find ones that better fit you. "Nonbinary" is the current popular one for people who don't feel like either gender is a proper fit for them.

The main point for you, though, is that you do not have to commit to anything just yet. You want to explore your presentation more? I fully support you in doing so, and I'd be surprised if anyone here disagreed. You might ultimately find that you're happier seeing yourself as/being seen as a woman, in which case you are a trans woman. You might ultimately be content as a man who embraces many feminine modes of thought and expression. You may wind up feeling like creating your own a-la-carte form of gender. A therapist might help you make sense out of your thoughts when you're deeper into the thick of things. But for right now, there's absolutely no downside to experimenting and seeing what bits do or do not work for you.

[Chen]

So when someone identifies as male as or female what exactly does that mean? Ostensibly we’re not talking about physical sex, but gender identity. But if gender identity isn’t the same as the societal concept of gender as defined by the feminists mentioned upthread, what is it then? How do you describe maleness (or femaleness) if it is not linked to sex or societal perceptions of gender (and gender roles)?

[BisectedBrioche]

So when someone identifies as male as or female what exactly does that mean? Ostensibly we’re not talking about physical sex, but gender identity. But if gender identity isn’t the same as the societal concept of gender as defined by the feminists mentioned upthread, what is it then? How do you describe maleness (or femaleness) if it is not linked to sex or societal perceptions of gender (and gender roles)?

That's a subject you could write a thesis on and earn a PhD for.

The simplest way to describe it would be that it's like sexuality. Even if you don't know why or how, you do know, and even if science can't explain the how or why (because we don't know anywhere near enough about how the mind works), it can observe this is a consistent experience that everyone has. Cogito ergo sum.

[Chen]

That's a subject you could write a thesis on and earn a PhD for.

The simplest way to describe it would be that it's like sexuality. Even if you don't know why or how, you do know, and even if science can't explain the how or why (because we don't know anywhere near enough about how the mind works), it can observe this is a consistent experience that everyone has. Cogito ergo sum.

I guess it’s more how do you define male and female gender. Male and female sex are defined, biologically. As a cisgender person I identify my gender as male but basically only by default since my sex is male. If I disregard societal gender roles or gender perceptions I have nothing to tell me my gender is male except for the default assumption that my gender matches my sex. I suppose taken from my own perspective I could be agender in that I have no perception of a gender at all.

[Lycunadari]

For me, gender is mostly a feeling, that does correlate with how I want other people to perceive me, but does not correlate with gender roles, and frequently contradicts them. Like, I'm genderfluid, and I know when I'm a guy, or bigender, or agender, or definitely-not-male-or-female-but-I-don't-have-a-word-for-this-gender, just like I know when I'm happy or tired or hungry. I also happen to frequently be a guy or nonbinary person who prefers to wear skirts (and sometimes a woman who doesn't particularly care for skirts!) and I'd like people to see me as male/nonbinary even when I wear a dress. That's actually my main source of dysphoria- that my internal sense of gender and how I like to express it doesn't match how society interprets my presentation. So I frequently have to decide what is more important for me at any given time- that I can wear the clothes that feel right, or wear the clothes that make it less likely for people to misgender me. Sadly there is no way to present as clearly nonbinary- the best I can hope for is confusing people- so often I just give up on trying to get people to gender me correctly. I just try to be as out as possible so at least the people who know me don't misgender me. (And I wear the queerest clothes I can find (I love rainbow socks :smallbiggrin: ) so even if people don't read me as nonbinary specifically, at least no one thinks I'm cishet :smalltongue: )

That's to say- even for me, gender doesn't always make sense. But that's okay, I don't need to understand it to know it's real and important to many people. So I just believe people to know themselves best, and accept and support them as best as I can.


Edit: Just a note- sex is also a spectrum, just like gender, and it's not as clearly defined as many think. There's hormones, chromosomes, anatomy and all of them have more than just two clear cut male/female options (there's like 10 different chromosomal variations alone!), and people can have different combinations of all of them- intersex people exist, and aren't as uncommon as many think.

Edit2: I realise most people probably don't have an internal sense of gender as strong as mine. As far as I see it, there are roughly 4 groups of people:

Cis people:
1) People who do have a (strong) internal sense of gender that does align with their assigned gender: cis people who actively identify as their AGAB
2) People who don't have a (strong) internal sense of gender and are fine with their assigned gender and/or just don't particularly care: the cis-by-default people. Probably most cis people?

Trans people:
3) People who do have a (strong) internal sense of gender that does not align with their assigned gender: (most?) trans people, including nonbinary people
4) People who don't have a (strong) internal sense of gender, and place importance on that: agender people (or some other nonbinary identities, like noitrois, gendervoid etc)

There are of course also plenty of people who don't fit neatly in these 4 groups, like trans people who don't have a strong internal sense of gender, but a lot of gender dysphoria (like trans guys, who don't feel particularly manly, but feel strongly non-female), nonbinary people who don't see themselves as trans for whatever reason/ people who are neither cis nor trans etc. But I think it works as a rough framework to understand why in discussions like this there are frequently misunderstandings between people from group 2 and people from groups 1 and 3 (and to some extent also 4).

[Anymage]

I guess it’s more how do you define male and female gender. Male and female sex are defined, biologically. As a cisgender person I identify my gender as male but basically only by default since my sex is male. If I disregard societal gender roles or gender perceptions I have nothing to tell me my gender is male except for the default assumption that my gender matches my sex. I suppose taken from my own perspective I could be agender in that I have no perception of a gender at all.

You might very well feel agender. You might also just be so comfortable with your birth sex (that's okay, the vast majority of people are) that you just don't notice it. There's really no way for any of us to tell, and if you're really curious your best move is to try exploring genderspace and seeing what works. Like I said to Tal a bit back, it isn't like trying locks you into anything.

The only observable element is that you have a small but significant number of people across time and cultures, and often facing opposing social pressures, who still feel that their birth sex is wrong to the point that they want to be seen otherwise. We don't really have a solid model for anything deeper than that.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I guess it’s more how do you define male and female gender. Male and female sex are defined, biologically. As a cisgender person I identify my gender as male but basically only by default since my sex is male. If I disregard societal gender roles or gender perceptions I have nothing to tell me my gender is male except for the default assumption that my gender matches my sex. I suppose taken from my own perspective I could be agender in that I have no perception of a gender at all.

Definitions and perceptions of gender are tricky, because one's internal perception of one's own gender can be influenced by how society around one talks about it and approaches it and so forth.

For instance, in South America there's a big "macho" or "machismo" culture. Men there are expected to be Manly Men and brag about their accomplishments and defend their honor and love soccer (or fútbol, rather) and so forth. A man in that culture who is naturally tall and outgoing and a soccer fan and so on will probably identify more strongly as a "man" there because there's a distinct and obvious "Man" role that he fits into, while a man in that culture who is short and soft-spoken and more artsy than sporty and so on will probably be more likely to experience a crisis of masculinity because he doesn't feel "manly" and gets a lot of grief from his friends and family for not being manly enough and so on.

Now, let's say those men both move to a more gender-egalitarian culture like the Scandinavian countries, where there's not nearly as much pressure for men to be "manly" and women to be "womanly" and crossing gender lines isn't particularly praised or punished. The tall guy who's into sports might feel less manly than in South America because he doesn't have an obvious manliness meter against which to measure himself anymore and the other guys don't much care about his soccer trophies, while the short guy who's into the arts might feel more manly because he doesn't feel like his masculinity is under attack anymore. Further, someone born and raised in those countries might not end up thinking about their manliness at all because it's not a huge issue and thus have no strong feelings either way.

Also, there are conflicting views regarding the rigidity of gender roles. In general, in the West female gender roles are more relaxed than male gender roles (girls can wear T-shirts and jeans without comment while boys get mocked for wearing skirts, mothers out in public with their kids are viewed as normal parents while fathers out in public with their kids are often viewed as merely "babysitting" them, and so on), so some men who don't exactly fit the masculine stereotype can feel like they don't fit into the male gender role and view that poor fit as a problem with their own masculinity, while other men who don't fit the stereotype can feel like there are or should be more ways to be "manly" and view that poor fit as a problem with an overly-restrictive male gender role itself.

So where one draws the line between male and nonbinary identity can vary from person to person, as can the degree to which one actively thinks about where they fall on that spectrum, as Lycunadari and Anymage have noted, and it's totally fine to just go with male or female by default if that's what you feel fits best.

[Anymage]

Question for people.

We know that Rich stepped in it a few times with trans tropes, and rightly doesn't trust himself to place transness anywhere near a punchline or major plot point. On the other hand, not wanting to include trans characters because you're worried about doing them wrong does mean a lack of representation if enough people go the better safe than sorry route.

Assuming that nobody is going to quit or overturn their entire writing staff or anything like that, I'm wondering what people here think would be the best way to thread that needle of having representation while minimizing the risk of it going badly.

[DeTess]

Assuming that nobody is going to quit or overturn their entire writing staff or anything like that, I'm wondering what people here think would be the best way to thread that needle of having representation while minimizing the risk of it going badly.

The same way you represent any other group of people: by talking to them. Its really not rocket science.

First you need to figure out what a group is really like, which you can only do by talking to its members. Then afterwards you bring your interpretation back to them for review and feedback. Then you refine and correct until you've got something that both you and the group you're representing are happy with.

[Lissou]

I'd say when you represent any group of people you're not a part of, the best way to go is to do your research, speak to people from that group and ask about it, even have one as a beta reader if possible so they can point out things that don't work.
Then expect to make some mistakes anyways, because it happens. If you do, apologise, learn from the mistake and do better next time.

I understand why Rich doesn't want to include trans characters, because he's done it so wrong before he doesn't trust himself. I hope that doesn't apply to whatever he creates after OOTS though. I think even allies make mistakes and he's made it clear he's an ally.
However, I'm not trans myself so my opinion on this matter isn't particularly relevant.

As someone who writes, I have wondered before "should I really include this (group) charater? I may make a lot of mistakes and upset people. Should I let others deal with representation, people who know what they're doing?"
But I've looked into it, and while bad representation can definitely do some damage, historically it has paved the way towards good representation too, and I think if you work hard to learn and do your characters justice, and treat them as fully-fledged characters and not just the group they happen to be a part of, you should err towards the side of more inclusion. I think getting it a bit wrong is better than erasure.

Obviously my own conclusions, and different people will reach different conclusion. I will say though that if you won't bother learning anything about who or what you're writing, it's probably best not to write it, but if you do your research and get it wrong, then do better next time.

[BisectedBrioche]

IMO it's best to look at the case of indie developer Swery65.

He made a game called Deadly Premonition, which featured a trans character whose portrayal was well intentioned, but touched upon a lot of problematic tropes.

Several years later, he made a game called The Missing: J.J Macfield and the Island of Memories. This also featured a sympathetic trans character (a lot of more prominently, in fact), but much better written. Good enough, in fact, that he gave a GDC talk on it. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b69BYO-RW0)

Finally, as a cautionary tale, he then created Deadly Premonition 2. This features another trans character (not the same as the original), who was intended as a sympathetic villain. Unfortunately he once again fell into multiple problematic tropes (and doubled down when he was criticised).

The difference was that for Macfield, he worked and consulted with trans people, whereas for the two DP games, he was ignoring any input in favour of what he already knew. In the case of DP2, this was better, but nowhere near enough.

[Rydiro]

Finally, as a cautionary tale, he then created Deadly Premonition 2. This features another trans character (not the same as the original), who was intended as a sympathetic villain.
What do you think about playing minority characters as villains straight, ie not overly sympathetic?

[LaZodiac]

What do you think about playing minority characters as villains straight, ie not overly sympathetic?

Them being the villain is not the issue at hand. It's the details of the trans person; ie getting dead named a lot, among other things. No one is angry about LGBTA characters being villains unless the villainy they employ is the "kuhuhu, I'm an evil gay boy who is going to do a sex crime at you" or is some other stereotypical bigoted nonsense.

[137beth]

What do you think about playing minority characters as villains straight, ie not overly sympathetic?

My favorite example of a villainous queer character I have read is in Sister Claire (sisterclaire.com). The main antagonist, Mother Abraham, is poly and bi or pan. In the prequels, we get some indication that Abby wasn't always so horrible, but by the time of the main comic she is irredeemably evil with little or no sympathetic qualities.

Part of the reason it works so well in Sister Claire, and doesn't work as well in other fiction, is the number and diversity of non-villainous queer characters. In the Claireverse, straight people do not exist at all. Everyone is what we'd call queer. So when the villain is also queer, it isn't a big deal.

By contrast, in "big-publisher" fiction, the current situation is that the vast majority of stories from major publishers have no queer representation at all, and then once in a blue moon we'll get a story with one queer character. If that one character is a villain, it can come across as the authors saying all queer people are villains. Sister Claire avoids giving the impression that all queer people are one thing by having lots of distinct queer characters.

Also, if the only queer character in a story is the villain, there is a risk that the author could imply the character is villainous because they are queer.

[BladeofObliviom]

Yeah, kind of hits the nail on the head here. Deep down, you probably already understand the rules: Don't fall into gross stereotypes relevant for the villainy (this is true for all villains, queer or not; there's nothing wrong with having, for example, a villain of Chinese ethnicity, but if you're using all the "yellow peril" tropes that quickly gets pretty bad) and overall representation matters (picking up the ethnicity comparison again, your villain's ethnicity doesn't matter even if they're utterly depraved, but if every character of that ethnicity is similarly depraved in your work or if the villain is the only representative, it changes the tone somewhat. This one's more complex, of course; to some degree exceptions can be made for extremely small casts, and shoehorning in a "good one" can be done very badly.)

[BisectedBrioche]

What do you think about playing minority characters as villains straight, ie not overly sympathetic?

Not a problem as long as:

It doesn't fall in with a trend of only portraying said minority as villains.
It doesn't tie their villainy to their minority status (aside from something like "society was a **** to me, so I'm destroying it").


One of the best works with a trans character I've seen is Bit, which very much portrays the trans main character (who's trans) as an antihero (who's willing to become a vampire serial killer).

[Lissou]

Definitely echoing what others have say. If your villain is the only example of said minority, that's bad. If there are multiple people from that minority but they're all villain, that's bad. I tend to err on the side of not having minorities as villains very much, because they're already so rarely represented, but it will probably happen at some point, and I think having introduced a variety of characters who are all diverse but not defined by their diversity will help when it does.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Hi cool humans!
Uh. Has been a while for me on Giantitp, but I'm back for now at least. Currently got exciting news! I've got.. plans to talk to my parents about getting puberty blockers at some point next year! Hopefully that goes well!

[BisectedBrioche]

Hi cool humans!
Uh. Has been a while for me on Giantitp, but I'm back for now at least. Currently got exciting news! I've got.. plans to talk to my parents about getting puberty blockers at some point next year! Hopefully that goes well!

Congrats! I hope 2021's your year!

[Wizard_Lizard]

Congrats! I hope 2021's your year!

Yeah! Hope so too!

[Shadowscale]

How've all you happy people been? I wanted to update that my wife and I moved to Minnesota last year and are doing great.

[LaZodiac]

Congrats. I'm doing okay myself.

I was informed I will be receiving a call from the Edmonton Health Society, to discuss evaluation for GCS. I'm... very excited.

[Mith]

Congrats. I'm doing okay myself.

I was informed I will be receiving a call from the Edmonton Health Society, to discuss evaluation for GCS. I'm... very excited.

Yay! Congrats, Zodi!

[Dire Moose]

How've all you happy people been? I wanted to update that my wife and I moved to Minnesota last year and are doing great.

Wait, your wife? Wow, we really have been out of touch. What happened in the last few years?

Anyway, we’re doing ok here. My spouse and I are still together in Arizona and love each other very much. We moved into a new condo together in the late spring of 2019. My transition actually brought us closer together than ever, and I have just passed 3 years on HRT. As of the 23rd of this month, we will have been married for 4 years.

[Mariah]

We have been doing pretty good. We have been working from home and enjoying our pets. We are closer and they have come along ways in the time I have known them:
Wait, your wife? Wow, we really have been out of touch. What happened in the last few years?

Anyway, we’re doing ok here. My spouse and I are still together in Arizona and love each other very much. We moved into a new condo together in the late spring of 2019. My transition actually brought us closer together than ever, and I have just passed 3 years on HRT. As of the 23rd of this month, we will have been married for 4 years.

[BisectedBrioche]

Well, my surgery's been postponed for COVID reasons.

With any luck, it'll only be a few weeks, but I was basically all packed and ready to go to hospital this week. :smallfrown:

[Lissou]

Well, my surgery's been postponed for COVID reasons.

With any luck, it'll only be a few weeks, but I was basically all packed and ready to go to hospital this week. :smallfrown:

Oh no, that sucks :( I understand the reason behind it, it's safer that way, for you and everyone else, but it must still feel like Christmas got postponed.
/me hugs

[Shadowscale]

Wait, your wife? Wow, we really have been out of touch. What happened in the last few years?

Anyway, we’re doing ok here. My spouse and I are still together in Arizona and love each other very much. We moved into a new condo together in the late spring of 2019. My transition actually brought us closer together than ever, and I have just passed 3 years on HRT. As of the 23rd of this month, we will have been married for 4 years.

Yeah I got married 2 years ago and live in Minnesota now. I'm glad y'all are doing well we really should catch up sometime whether like: here, discord or email :)

[Dire Moose]

Yeah I got married 2 years ago and live in Minnesota now. I'm glad y'all are doing well we really should catch up sometime whether like: here, discord or email :)

Contact info sent.

[137beth]

So, what do people think the title of the next thread should be?

[The Succubus]

New Thread, New Year, New Starts!

[BisectedBrioche]

Tomorrow I should be out of COVID jail, and able to discuss when I can reschedule my surgery.

[Mith]

So, what do people think the title of the next thread should be?

LGBTAI+ #60: Which of us is renting the U-Haul?

[BisectedBrioche]

So, what do people think the title of the next thread should be?

"Transitioning to a new thread."

[Lissou]

"Transitioning to a new thread."

I love it! It's got my vote.

By the way, I hope you can get a new appointment really soon!

[BisectedBrioche]

I love it! It's got my vote.

By the way, I hope you can get a new appointment really soon!

As it happens, I got through and have it booked for March now!

I'll be off E for another month, which isn't great, but at least it's happening! <3

[Dire Moose]

As it happens, I got through and have it booked for March now!

I'll be off E for another month, which isn't great, but at least it's happening! <3

YAY! I’m glad they could still fit you in.

I also like “Transitioning to a New Thread.”

[BladeofObliviom]

Little late but still kind of exciting, Wednesday marked 6 months since I started E. Life-changing, honestly. <3

[BisectedBrioche]

Streaming Night in the Woods and cosplaying the main character means I've succumbed to another trans girl stereotype! (https://twitter.com/BisectedBrioche/status/1354534796979011585)

[Lissou]

Nice cosplay! I wasn't aware of the stereotype, but I am now :)

[Dire Moose]

I’ve never been to comic con as a girl, entirely because I couldn’t think of a good female character that wouldn’t be too hard to cosplay.

Eventually I decided to cosplay as the female Pokémon trainer from FireRed and LeafGreen (with a Charizard plushie), and managed to get a decent outfit together. I was really looking forward to showing off the new me at 2020’s convention.

(SIGH) but then the virus had to ruin everything.

[Lissou]

I’ve never been to comic con as a girl, entirely because I couldn’t think of a good female character that wouldn’t be too hard to cosplay.

Eventually I decided to cosplay as the female Pokémon trainer from FireRed and LeafGreen (with a Charizard plushie), and managed to get a decent outfit together. I was really looking forward to showing off the new me at 2020’s convention.

(SIGH) but then the virus had to ruin everything.

That sucks! But hopefully cons will reopen soon and you'll be able to show off :)

[BisectedBrioche]

I’ve never been to comic con as a girl, entirely because I couldn’t think of a good female character that wouldn’t be too hard to cosplay.

Eventually I decided to cosplay as the female Pokémon trainer from FireRed and LeafGreen (with a Charizard plushie), and managed to get a decent outfit together. I was really looking forward to showing off the new me at 2020’s convention.

(SIGH) but then the virus had to ruin everything.

Ironically, the pandemic got me cosplaying.

Something about the pressure of cosplaying at public events makes it harder.

[YossarianLives]

It's been ages since I posted here, as I got too busy when I started uni a few years back and dropped off the map.

I remember coming to this thread *years* ago when I was in my early teens and very much still in the closet. I was confused, conflicted, and the idea of coming out terrified me more than anything. I dkdnt post much in this thread, but it was the first LGBTQ community I ever connected with.
I came out as a trans woman in 2019, and now I've been on HRT for a year and a half. I'm in a stable relationship with my girlfriend, and despite everything wrong with the world right now, I know there's hope.

So... Thanks. To all of you. Your posts and patience with a scared teenager made a real difference in my life.

It's fun scrolling through threads and still recognizing half or more of the names as veteran posters.

[BisectedBrioche]

It's been ages since I posted here, as I got too busy when I started uni a few years back and dropped off the map.

I remember coming to this thread *years* ago when I was in my early teens and very much still in the closet. I was confused, conflicted, and the idea of coming out terrified me more than anything. I dkdnt post much in this thread, but it was the first LGBTQ community I ever connected with.
I came out as a trans woman in 2019, and now I've been on HRT for a year and a half. I'm in a stable relationship with my girlfriend, and despite everything wrong with the world right now, I know there's hope.

So... Thanks. To all of you. Your posts and patience with a scared teenager made a real difference in my life.

It's fun scrolling through threads and still recognizing half or more of the names as veteran posters.

I think I'd have been on hiatus from this forum while you were active (I used to go by Bisected8), but congratulations. ^_^

[DarthArminius]

Why did the new color come out to his white and black parents? Because he was Light Gray Blue Translucent.
"Mom, Dad, I'm Gray!"

[BisectedBrioche]

Streaming Night in the Woods and cosplaying the main character means I've succumbed to another trans girl stereotype! (https://twitter.com/BisectedBrioche/status/1354534796979011585)

I've updated my cosplay with a better wig! (https://twitter.com/BisectedBrioche/status/1361426585090486273)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuTCPqEWYAIc3hL?format=jpg&name=large

[DarthArminius]

We need a new thread.

[Mystic Muse]

Everyone abandon thread. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?627270-LGBTAIitp-Part-60-Still-Going-Strong&p=24934451#post24934451)

Title is just a placeholder.