How do I tell if I'm optimizing correctly?

[Catarang]

I'm very sorry for the extremely general title. To get to the point, I'm currently working on my first lvl 20 3.5 character and I'm having trouble understanding if any of my stats are very good. It's a martial character, basically a barbarian with a lot of prestige classes tacked on, and I'm worried that the stats aren't up to snuff and will won't compete with something gishy. I'm not looking for tier 1-2 here, I just want to know if I'm prepared or not. I was wondering if there's a way to tell if a certain stat (ability scores, saves, HP/AC/to hit bonus, DPR) is competitive or not beyond just comparing it to the Tarrasque's or something. I'm not posting the actual character as I'm not nearly finished with it, but if you have any tips on barbarian builds (beyond the obvious ubercharging shenanigans) or want to post your favorite Barbarian Guide besides Eldariel’s Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?105525-3-5e-Being-Bane-Eldariel-s-Guide-to-Barbarians), (can't plug it enough), I'm all ears and would really appreciate it. And if there's some sort of mega-thread already working on this let me know and I'll just go there.

Thanks for any and everything!

[zlefin]

There are some good sources that cover what you should have in various stats at each level; I know I saw one recently but i'm having trouble finding it again. it was a nice spreadsheet which had expected dpr, ac, saves, and a bunch of other stuff at each level; and what was good/ok/weak at each level.

[Catarang]

There are some good sources that cover what you should have in various stats at each level; I know I saw one recently but i'm having trouble finding it again. it was a nice spreadsheet which had expected dpr, ac, saves, and a bunch of other stuff at each level; and what was good/ok/weak at each level.

That's exact what I would be looking for. Do you know where I should start looking for that?

[Silva Stormrage]

The main issue is that at level 20 the game starts to become fairly binary. You need immunities rather than +X to will saves. It doesn't matter if you have +100 to all saves if you aren't immune to negative levels someone is going to cast two split ray twinned enervation at you with a metamagic rod for maximize and hit you for 32 negative levels or so instantly killing you.

A general rule of thumb for optimization is have a decent amount of passive defenses for common things you expect to run into. At level 20 you should have plans for all of these.
Mind affecting
Death Effects
Negative Levels
Attack Rolls
Grapple/Slows (Get freedom of movement)

For attack rolls you really need things like miss chance (Mirror image, cloak of displacement) or things that just auto block an attack (wings of cover via a wand or spell slot, cloak of shadows or abrupt jaunt to just auto avoid an attack). AC is really hard to pump up to a level where melee can't hit you at level 20.



For offense it depends on what you really are trying to build for. A pure offense build at level 20 thats decently optimized should be able to one shot most builds if the enemy just stands there and isn't immune to your attack outright. As a general guideline for moderately high optimization I estimate around 1d10*1.5*CL for your damage in a round. Also don't build solely for a one trick pony build unless your one trick is REALLY hard to block for some reason.

[zlefin]

ah, I found it! it's for pathfinder rather than 3.5; but close enough.
https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2015/09/29/bench-pressing-character-creation-by-the-numbers/

[Catarang]

AC is really hard to pump up to a level where melee can't hit you at level 20.

Do you think you could chuck out a ball park of what is an unhittable AC at level 20? Are we talking like triple digits here or like 60-70?

[icefractal]

For the numbers in general, take a look at CR 20 monsters and see if, for example, your attacks are good enough to hit their AC, your saves are good enough not to auto-lose, that you have immunity (or a 90%+ save change) to abilities that would take you out completely, etc.

While it's a bit slow, you can try running some combats vs various CR 20 foes. Yes, you won't be alone in the real game, but in a tough fight the party will be facing more than one, so you should be able to make a decent showing against one while solo.

Edit: Wait, this is 3.5? I misread. You're in luck then, there's a lot of guides for the capabilities you need. This, for instance:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's entirely dependent on how your DM is running things. In one group you might need the sort of perfect offense/perfect defense stuff Silva Stormrage is talking about, where you're either immune or you're dead; in another, a solid AC and plenty of hit points will be fine. If you haven't played with this GM before, I recommend running the character by them first-- you don't want to accidentally over-optimize and blow the game away, either.

[rel]

The aim of optimisation is to acieve a particular end goal as efficiently and completely as possible give available resources.

As such your first question should be 'what is the end goal?' where you are trying to go will tell you how far away your build is and what you need to change.

Not playing the game is no fun so goal number 1 for me is don't die.

Pick a few random monsters and see if they can eliminate your character with a single lucky shot or in a few rounds of attrition.

Remember that being stunned for 3 rounds often means not playing the game for the next hour so consider status effects and debuffs as well as straight hit point damage and death.


A less obvious but common goal is engaging combat.

High level play (anything above lvl 10 really) is rocket tag by default. To avoid this the PC's need to run tricks to stay alive but they also need to avoid the more powerful offensive options to have combat last more than a round or two.


Finally, you need to consider ability relevance.
The ability to deal unlimited damage is nice but if 90% of the game is about challenges in which deal HP damage is not a solution and that is all you can do then you will be unable to contribute for most of the game no matter how good your deal HP damage ability is.

know what the game is about and plan accordingly.

[Gruftzwerg]

The main issue is that at level 20 the game starts to become fairly binary. You need immunities rather than +X to will saves. It doesn't matter if you have +100 to all saves if you aren't immune to negative levels someone is going to cast two split ray twinned enervation at you with a metamagic rod for maximize and hit you for 32 negative levels or so instantly killing you.

A general rule of thumb for optimization is have a decent amount of passive defenses for common things you expect to run into. At level 20 you should have plans for all of these.
Mind affecting
Death Effects
Negative Levels
Attack Rolls
Grapple/Slows (Get freedom of movement)
... *snip*...

totally support this.

further, you need to overcome your offensive weaknesses:

- get True Sight to deal with miss chances (and as defense against illusions btw.)

- any way to fly. you don't want to use any (unoptimized) ranged weapon if you build for melee. Other option would be a 4 lvl dip into Bloodstorm Blade to give you the option to full attack at range with your melee weapon and bonuses.

- mobility: tactical swift short range teleport, extra movement speed

- optional a (+1) "impaling" piercing weapon to ignore 3x/day enemy (natural +) armor bonuses. (Only leaving stuff like deflection and Dex bonus).

- optional greater invisibility: while many enemies will have defenses against this, it can still be helpful against those who still can't see you. You ignore their dodge and Dex bonuses on AC as neat side-effect.

[Nifft]

Just a couple things to add:

1/ Optimization is relative. You maximize fun by being able to participate in whatever it is the group is trying to do. (Often this includes killing things and taking their stuff.) What this means is you only need to ensure your character is optimized relative to the rest of your group.

2/ Optimization is collective. Sometimes we talk about character optimization as though the character is operating alone, because it's much simpler to discuss -- but in a real game, you're not alone. You're part of a team. Stuff that boosts your team mates can contribute disproportionately. Conversely, you may have a team mate who buffs you (casting spells on you for example).


Some specific examples:
- If there's a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard in your party, you may want to try to maximize the number of your attacks, since you'll be tacking on a lot of extra damage to each attack.
- If there's a Druid, you may get extra single attacks (via Mass Snake's Swiftness). Optimizing for single-attack damage is obviously different than optimizing for many attacks.


What's your expectation for spellcaster cooperation? What's your expectation for enemy group composition?

If you're supposed to handle all your buffs yourself, and the chief opponents are heavily slanted towards spellcasters, then you might want non-magical flight (perhaps by a graft), and for your last 10 levels you might want to go with something like Runescarred Berserker.

[Silva Stormrage]

Do you think you could chuck out a ball park of what is an unhittable AC at level 20? Are we talking like triple digits here or like 60-70?

Ya so let me first just clarify, everyone saying optimization is relative is totally correct, some games you don't need to worry about people hitting you with 32 negative levels in a surprise round. Okay the VAST majority of games you don't. Make sure you optimize towards your table's power level.

As for "Unhittable" ac. At level 20 A balor has +31 to hit. Assume that if your playing in a optimized setting the DM isn't just going to send a baseline balor at you and will readjust his feats/give him support via casters debuffing you etc etc. He is probably going to get +50 or so to hit tops so an AC of 70 or so is good enough that any more is pretty much overkill.

The main problem with that is that most threats at that level either don't care about AC or will target touch ac. The wraithstrike spell, brilliant energy weapon enhancement and even some manuvers make your regular AC pretty pointless. Even if you can buff your touch AC to 60-70 there is always either true strike for a free +20 to hit or the caster can cast limited wish to automatically hit your AC without a roll.

And if you are fighting a volley archer with woodland archer they can easily hit AC's in the 120's but thats a specific build.

Still "unhittable" isn't really a concept at level 20+. Difficult to hit is and thats where you should aim for, then have enough offense and intelligence/reactive capabilities to hit them with a solid hit before they can do the same for you. Also have a back up plan for when you do get hit (Contigencies, true rez's prepared and similar tactics)

[Eldariel]

Revivify is a beautiful spell on high levels. One of my favourite Crafted Contingencies is Revivify upon death while wearing a Healing [MIC] Armor (autoactivates in negative HP) to go right back to taking actions. Quite affordable and useful. Though of course, teammates casting Revivify/using a Scroll is even cheaper. On high levels, I prefer that the whole party have the ability to use some Revivify-like ability to avoid simple casualties. Also rerolling fir self and allies (e.g. Alter Fortune).

[Gruftzwerg]

Revivify is a beautiful spell on high levels. One of my favourite Crafted Contingencies is Revivify upon death while wearing a Healing [MIC] Armor (autoactivates in negative HP) to go right back to taking actions. Quite affordable and useful. Though of course, teammates casting Revivify/using a Scroll is even cheaper. On high levels, I prefer that the whole party have the ability to use some Revivify-like ability to avoid simple casualties. Also rerolling fir self and allies (e.g. Alter Fortune).

Ring of the Nine Lives could be another option instead of the Healing Armor.
It has 9 charges of the auto-heal on negative Hp + you can spend the charges to auto-save a failed save (!) once a day.

[Eldariel]

Ring of the Nine Lives could be another option instead of the Healing Armor.
It has 9 charges of the auto-heal on negative Hp + you can spend the charges to auto-save a failed save (!) once a day.

Sure, though Healing armor is only 8000gp and has infinite charges with only daily limit.