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Grushvak
2007-08-13, 10:13 AM
I always considered myself a decent powergamer, borderline munchkin. I give my DM nightmares, and there's already a long list of class/alignment/race combinations I'm not allowed to play anymore.

For my next character, I'm going back to my first love: the skillmonkeys. Sadly, I'm not allowed to play halfling rogues anymore after an unfortunate play session where I had a halfling disciple of Baalzeebul.

So I'm looking for alternatives on the skillmonkey style.

What I prefer in D&D is roleplaying and finding overly complicated solutions to simple problems.

My first two characteristics are intellect and charisma, my tendencies slightly evil, and I can't for the life of me play an elf.

I'd like to be able to use some magic with this one, maybe even clerical magic if this is at all possible with a skillmonkey build.

I have access to a lot and I do mean a lot of rulebooks on my computer, so any obscure prestige class, feat or spell I can probably print out and bring to my DM.

DM is not fond of magic items. He'll left us craft some, but it's rare to find them in dungeons, and downright impossible to buy them with our earnings.

So, what do you min-maxers suggest?

bigbaddragon
2007-08-13, 10:37 AM
and I can't for the life of me play an elf.


I understand.



I'd like to be able to use some magic with this one, maybe even clerical magic if this is at all possible with a skillmonkey build.

I have access to a lot and I do mean a lot of rulebooks on my computer, so any obscure prestige class, feat or spell I can probably print out and bring to my DM.

DM is not fond of magic items. He'll left us craft some, but it's rare to find them in dungeons, and downright impossible to buy them with our earnings.


Rogue 1/Cleric 4/Shadowbane Stalker (Complete Adventurer) with Able Learner feat (that is if you can get your DM to remove lawful good alignment prerequisite).

Other than that have you thought about beguiler (PHB2)?

UserClone
2007-08-13, 10:41 AM
If what you are after is skills and esoteric solutions, and you won't miss having sneak attack, definitely go with a beguiler(PHB2). I would splash a level of Mindbender(CArc) @7th CL in order to delay your advanced learning until you can learn shadow conjuration, as well as picking up some very useful synergistic abilities.

Foolosophy
2007-08-13, 10:41 AM
I'd like to be able to use some magic with this one, maybe even clerical magic if this is at all possible with a skillmonkey build.


Maybe the Cloistered Cleric alternative cleric class from Unearthed Arcana (also found at d20srd.org). You geht 6 skillpoints / level and a decent skill list. (including all knowledge skills). If you choose your 2 domains carefully you can get other class skills aswell (trickery domain comes to mind).
This should cover all the social/non-dungeon skills.
If you are playing in Faerun, the Initiate of Gond feat will net you Disable Device and Open Lock!
If you manage to get search as a class skill (dip + able learner feat?)
and the ability to find magic traps (avaiable from some prestige classes and, of course, a rogue or scout dip) you can fulfill all the classic dungeon skillmoney roles aswell.

Grushvak
2007-08-13, 10:46 AM
Thanks for all the suggestion. I somehow didn't have Player's Handbook II (?) so I'm downloading it right now. I'll have to check this beguiler class.

Also, since we're min-maxing here, any races that would be good with this build, or should I just stick with human for the extra feats and skill points?

EDIT: Oh and yes, I -will- miss the sneak attacks, but my DM won't. He somehow disagreed with me dishing out more damage than our wizard and fighter simultaneously. He never managed to put me in a situation where I couldn't sneak attack. >.>

Solo
2007-08-13, 10:50 AM
e Initiate of Gond feat will net you Disable Device and Open Lock!
If you manage to get search as a class skill (dip + able learner feat?)
and the ability to find magic traps (avaiable from some prestige classes and, of course, a rogue or scout dip) you can fulfill all the classic dungeon skillmoney roles aswell.

Isn't there a first level cleric spell for finding traps?

ranger89
2007-08-13, 10:52 AM
Thanks for all the suggestion. I somehow didn't have Player's Handbook II (?) so I'm downloading it right now. I'll have to check this beguiler class.

I assume you meant to write that you're rushing out to the nearest bookstore to buy the PHII right now. :smallwink:

The Beguiler sounds like a good fit for you. I haven't played one yet but the class is on my 'to do' list. You might also want to consider the Spellthief from Complete Adventurer.

Grushvak
2007-08-13, 10:54 AM
Now, I really want to play a cleric, because I haven't in quite a while. But I want to know if there is a way (perhaps an obscure rulebook) to get my wisdom to benefit my skill points, or at least to benefit more skills than it otherwise would. I know abilities substitution is hard to find because it's so obviously overpowered, but little perks like Disciples of Baalzeebul using intelligence as well as charisma for bluff checks, are what I'm looking for.

Grushvak
2007-08-13, 10:56 AM
I assume you meant to write that you're rushing out to the nearest bookstore to buy the PHII right now. :smallwink:

The Beguiler sounds like a good fit for you. I haven't played one yet but the class is on my 'to do' list. You might also want to consider the Spellthief from Complete Adventurer.

My nearest bookstore is a used bookstore, so I can't decide when and how I'll get Player's Handbook II. [Scrubbed]

Also, they mostly come in French here, and French books confuse the hell out of me when all my core rulebooks are in English.

UserClone
2007-08-13, 10:58 AM
Also, I have never tried it, but the Savant base class from Dragon Magazine Compendium, Vol.1 has ALL skills as class skills, has the ability to grant his skill ranks to others, trapfinding, midline attack bonus, all martial weap. profs, a little sneak attack, some (minor) arcane AND divine spellcasting, etc.

Grushvak
2007-08-13, 11:01 AM
Also, I have never tried it, but the Savant base class from Dragon Magazine Compendium, Vol.1 has ALL skills as class skills, has the ability to grant his skill ranks to others, trapfinding, midline attack bonus, all martial weap. profs, a little sneak attack, some (minor) arcane AND divine spellcasting, etc.

THE CHEESE! IT IS OVERWHELMING!

UserClone
2007-08-13, 11:03 AM
It's really more of a mid-to-low everything than an especially-good anything in particular. I suggest you check the book out.

Grushvak
2007-08-13, 11:10 AM
It's really more of a mid-to-low everything than an especially-good anything in particular. I suggest you check the book out.

It's not a class I'd stick out with until 20, it's just an excellent first level to take. Lots of skills, you get both spellcasting types, getting a lot of PrC requirements out of the way, and you start with martial weapon proficiency. Woot!

UserClone
2007-08-13, 11:12 AM
just remember, you don't gain arcane casting levels until you gain the baility to cast the spells and ditto divine.

MrNexx
2007-08-13, 11:14 AM
If you're wanting to skill monkey, the Cloistered Cleric is a good option... put a reasonably high stat in Intelligence, another in Wisdom (I usually favor intelligence over Wisdom, actually, and just increase wisdom later), and then got to town. Humans are great for this, since they let you learn even more skills.

PinkysBrain
2007-08-13, 11:41 AM
Artificer, magic, item crafting and trap skills ... he lacks stealth and social skills, but you can always dip rogue for them if you use able learner.

Darrin
2007-08-13, 11:42 AM
So I'm looking for alternatives on the skillmonkey style.

What I prefer in D&D is roleplaying and finding overly complicated solutions to simple problems.


You might have to be more specific about which skills you want to focus on, but have you considerd Bard? They have a good mix of multiple-use utility spells (including Cure Light Wounds, add a Wand of CLW and you can moonlight as a mini-cleric).

There's the UberDiplomat (turn any hostile encounter into friendly with one single Diplomacy check). Max out Speak Languages so you can talk to everything.

A Know-It-All build carefully straddles the line between DM's Best Friend to DM's Worst Nightmare. Max out all knowledge skills and bardic knowledge. On one hand, this allows the DM to feed you every important plot hook he can possibly imagine. On the other hand, you can drive him bat-snot crazy with a long series of "Do I know about X?" questions whenever he mentions anything resembling a noun.

A Social Engineering build maxes out Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive. If you're looking for complicated solutions, involving more people in the negotiations will always make things more complicated. When diplomacy or subterfuge won't get you what you want, hit 'em with subsonic Hypnotism, Suggestion, Charm Person, etc. Add Forgery for some "get X for free" coupons.

Bards gish fairly well, and you can surprise your DM with some interesting optimized builds. Abjurant Champion + Sublime Chord + Eldritch Knight/Jade Phoenix Mage is fairly durable gish-wise. Or add a little Druid, Green Whisperer, and Sublime Chord for an Arcane Heirophant build with 9th level Sorcerer spells, 9th level Druid spells, and Wildshape.

ImperiousLeader
2007-08-13, 11:55 AM
There are always Factotums and Incarnates.

Factotums are from Dungeonscape. They're an INT focused class that has inspiration points every encounter to spend on various effects. They have limited spellcasting abilities. They're a jack-of-all-trades class from the get-go.

Incarnates hail from Magic of Incarnum. Not powerful at first glance, but an Incarnate's soulmelds can offer bonuses to a lot of the skillmonkey's standard skills.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-13, 12:24 PM
The bard with the variant from PHB2 lets you add 1/2 your class level to all skill checks that you can make. That can be useful.

Factotums are great skill monkeys. I am currently working on ways to break them.

Telonius
2007-08-13, 12:46 PM
The "Able Learner" feat will be your friend in this endeavor.

Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric x. Able Learner at level 1. I believe this gives you all skills as class skills, and 6+int skill points/level. If you take it out to level 20, you will be casting as a 19th level Cleric, with almost the skill level of a Rogue.

Alternately you could go Rogue1/Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061212) 19. This combination also gives just about every skill as a class skill, but only nets you 4+int skillpoints a level after first. The upside is that your Intelligence will fuel your casting as well as your skill points, unlike the Cleric who depends on Wisdom.

EDIT: This second choice would be pretty cool for the fluff. Some dungeon-delver that found some piece of dark knowledge that Should Not Be Known, and got a little too interested for his own good. It could also fit in with the evil-ish tendencies you described.

Kyace
2007-08-13, 02:31 PM
Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric x. Able Learner at level 1. I believe this gives you all skills as class skills, and 6+int skill points/level. Technically, you still lack the outdoorsy skills: ride, handle animal, survival.

Grushvak
2007-08-13, 03:37 PM
So many interesting suggestions. I'm looking through all of this right now and I can hardly decide. Well, I'll make a few concepts and see what I prefer.

cupkeyk
2007-08-13, 04:20 PM
Maybe the Cloistered Cleric alternative cleric class from Unearthed Arcana (also found at d20srd.org). You geht 6 skillpoints / level and a decent skill list. (including all knowledge skills). If you choose your 2 domains carefully you can get other class skills aswell (trickery domain comes to mind).
This should cover all the social/non-dungeon skills.
If you are playing in Faerun, the Initiate of Gond feat will net you Disable Device and Open Lock!
If you manage to get search as a class skill (dip + able learner feat?)
and the ability to find magic traps (avaiable from some prestige classes and, of course, a rogue or scout dip) you can fulfill all the classic dungeon skillmoney roles aswell.

wait... Look for the Races of the Dragon web enhancement in the wizards website. A kobold cloistered cleric of Kurtalmak who get trickery and kobold as his domains get trapfinding as a class feature, search, disable device, hide, disguise and bluff. You are now a viable scout, swissknife and still a full caster.

Telonius
2007-08-13, 04:26 PM
Technically, you still lack the outdoorsy skills: ride, handle animal, survival.

Ah, you're right. Travel Domain will give you Survival as a class skill, as well as a bunch of nifty spells. I'm sure there's some other domain out there that will give you Handle Animal (oddly, the Animal domain doesn't) or Ride.

slexlollar89
2007-08-13, 05:21 PM
try a human factotum chameleon, with the jack of all trades feat (lets you use any skill, even if untrained). you would be the ultimate generalist and have plenty of skills.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-13, 10:17 PM
try a human factotum chameleon, with the jack of all trades feat (lets you use any skill, even if untrained). you would be the ultimate generalist and have plenty of skills.

I agree, except that I hate how a chameleon only gets 4 skills per level and have a small class list.

ImperiousLeader
2007-08-14, 09:09 PM
I agree, except that I hate how a chameleon only gets 4 skills per level and have a small class list.

Agreed on the first point, but remember, Chameleons require Able Learner, so cross-class skills are still gained at a rate of one skill point per rank. The only problem is that a skill that wasn't a class skill of your pre-chameleon classes and the chameleon is limited to the maximum rank of cross-class skills.