Monk 18 / Druid 2 -- How'd it go for you?

[Dalebert]

Did it work out? Any tips? I know it's a popular build.

Here's my plan right now, inspired by the DM reward of an Insignia of Claws in AL for ToA season.

I love monks but I couldn't give a flying crap about the last two levels. The delay of two levels for monk features all through his career is mildly annoying but I think the fun of mixing wild shape with monk will sufficiently make up for it. I'm starting at 4th level (2nd/2nd) with my first level in monk for the better saves.

Monk of the Long Death 18 / Moon Druid 2
Race: Ghostwise Halfling (wisdom bonus and communicate in animal form)
I'll focus on Wisdom first for higher save DCs since I'll often be using the beast physical stats anyway and I love the frightening effect at will at 6th!
Dex 17, Wis 16 to start
+1 each at 6th
Observant at 10th
Tome of Understanding at 11th (DM reward)
+2 Wis at 14th (total 22)
+2 Dex at 18th (total 20)

The fun stuff: I decided to make him kind of comically emo, obviously negatively obsessed with death and frequently muttering about its inevitability, doom and gloom, etc. A flaw is that his wild shapes take several rounds to complete. They're mechanically functional immediately but not aesthetically. Picture the gorey shape-shifting from movies The Thing and the prequel. For several rounds, bones and muscle tissues are showing until he finishes growing skin, fur, scales...

[RacingBreca]

I'm currently playing a Ghostwise halfling Monk 2/ Moon Druid 2.

I'm really enjoying the diversity of CR1 animal forms, and at this level, I find them to be very functional in combat. I wonder if by lvl 12, if your wild shapes will keep up with your Monk form. Your Natural Weapons will not be magical and your AC will be stuck at 17 or less. Your Dex and STR modifiers will never move beyond their current +2-3.

I am playing Storm King Thunder, so I know my ceiling is level 10-11. If I were to build through level 20, I would probably stop monk around lvl 5-6 and continue Druid onward and upward for the diversity of wild shapes and the utility of spells.

I'm curious to follow your thread.

[JBPuffin]

As an Arctic Druid, Wild Shape was almost solely extra HP; heck, it actually made me less effective usually, the major exception being the flight speed of the giant eagle. Moon Druid will probably have a better time, but if you only go two levels, eventually your base Monk form will overtake your animal forms.

[Dalebert]

I definitely had the same concerns. The druid forms won't really keep up but they will continue to be useful both utility and combat. And monk abilities will enhance them--AC and temp hp.

Consider that I can keep using unarmed strikes in animal form and still get my bonus strike. I can use animal attacks and still spend a ki for flurry of blows (ex: from 7th on, two dire wolf attacks with decent dmg and two chances to knock prone followed by two unarmed strikes, often with adv from pack tactics). It seems not bad. My three favorite forms are all only 1 or 2 points behind on to-hit and dmg and even then that's only after level 18 when my dex is finally maxxed. the insignia of claws will help.

Bear (refluffed to panda OBVIOUSLY): 19 str
Dire wolf: 17 str
Giant Spider: 16 dex

Hit points won't keep up well, but temp hp that scale with my level should help some with that. I will eventually get 26 temp hp every time I land a killing blow. I will get the ability to spend a ki point to drop to 1 hp instead of 0 at level 13. This will help me stay in a form longer and avoid a lot of carry-over dmg, and possibly giving me the opportunity to regain 26 temp hp and thus stay in the form even longer. I have that built-in at-will crowd control to keep many enemies off of me while helping my allies. I could choose to use that when I'm close to being reverted from dmg.

Much of the benefit of this build is utility/versatility and toughness. Even at higher levels, I'm looking at being able to absorb a couple of hits before dipping into my real hp, even discounting long death monk survival tricks.

[RacingBreca]

The utility of wild shape is awesome.

I really loved playing a giant spider in a cave in the last session.

The perception and stealth were really fun. I could see everything, the blindsight was comforting, and nobody knew I was there until I restrained the BBG with a web attack. It was pretty awesome. I would have liked to have been able to drop fog on the archers in the back of the cave though. No casting in wild shape :small frown:

[Dalebert]

No casting in wild shape :small frown:

That's another glorious thing about this build. I don't care about casting. Practically everything I can do as a monk, I can do as a beast, sometimes better. I can even communicate with racial telepathy. Sure, I get a few 1st level spells a day and will eventually be able to prepare 8 of them, but it's pure icing. It's all about the wildshape. Fog Cloud could be a great combo with giant spider though.

I forgot about the ape form. I've thought about taking Shillelagh so I could attack with a Staff of the Woodlands in ape form with my wisdom bonus. HP isn't great but as with others, it gets fluffed by monk temp hp. Actually as I think about it, Shillelagh seems like a great idea considering I'm advancing Widsom first over Dex.

At level 20, I'll get Empty Body which is yet another way to make the beast hp stretch farther. A full druid obviously advances in forms and I won't, but my monk stuff makes the basic forms better. My AC will only drop a little where a full druid usually has a crappy AC and relies on Barkskin, a terrible spell because it requires concentration. I will almost never have that low of an AC in animal form thanks to Unarmored Defense and having (eventually) a 22 wisdom.

[RacingBreca]

I've thought about taking Shillelagh so I could attack with a Staff of the Woodlands in ape form with my wisdom bonus. HP isn't great but as with others, it gets fluffed by monk temp hp.

I hadn't really thought about ape. With shillelighe and extra attack, it would have strong to hit, it would be magical damage no matter what club or staff you used. AC would be 16-17, but HP is only 19. But for a long life monk, that's less of an issue.

Good thinking! Is +5 from shillelighe better than a +3 and advantage from a dire wolf attack? Dire wolf is 2d6+3 (10) while shillelighe is 1d8+5 (9.5). I think with pack tactics the dire wolf eeks ahead. The action economy of casting shillelighe as bonus action and taking wild shape as a bonus action (though your DM would probably allow wild shape as an action), it's a little bit wonky for a first round of combat.

[Dalebert]

Moon druids "can" wild shape as a bonus action which doesn't take away their ability to shift as an action (the default). That's the RAW.

I'm not sure ape makes sense much. If I did it, it would just be for a little extra hp. After lvl 13, being in any shape at all means I can ignore big hits that would change me back by spending a ki point. I only have 5 hp as an ape and a giant hits me for 28? Ki point-only took 4 dmg and still an ape. Hits me again for 28? Ki point--hit does 0 dmg. And I still haven't dipped into my characters normal hp.

If I do it, I'd probably wait and do it the 2nd round. 1st rnd: Shillelagh and attack. 2nd rnd: ape out and attack. I'm still missing out on bonus action attacks for two rounds so this would be a survival decision.

[Dalebert]

This character should team up with someone with the mounted combat feat. Imagine a tank riding a dire wolf and always granting it advantage and being able to absorb attacks against it and then the wolf getting flurry of blows with advantage also!

[Specter]

I don't know, personally I wouldn't do it. There will be some levels where your wild shape is unbeatable (especially level 2 if you start as a druid), and in all the others it will be mediocre. Also 1st level spells are great at the start of the game, and then become nigh irrelevant after levels 10-15. Would you consider Ranger for your multiclass instead?

[Dalebert]

Ew, ranger? I don't do ranger. Ew. What would possibly be the point of that? What does two levels of ranger offer that would be better than wild shape? Which fighting style do you think goes best with monk?

The spells are pure icing. Shilellagh is nice since I'm focusing on wisdom before dex and will eventually hit 22. Also took Guidance, arguably best cantrip in the game, and will start by preparing Healing Word, Fog Cloud (to go with blindsighted beasts), Longstrider (to be obscenely fast and add it to my monk speed on top of whatever beast speed. Picture a spider climbing walls at 50 ft in tier 1), and Goodberry, mainly so I don't ahve to ever worry about food and so I can use any remaining spell slots at the end of the day. Still though, icing.

[Specter]

Ew, ranger? I don't do ranger. Ew. What would possibly be the point of that? What does two levels of ranger offer that would be better than wild shape? Which fighting style do you think goes best with monk?

Skills - one extra skill, plus all you need to be the best tracker in the group.

Favored Enemy - situational, but useful when the time comes.

Range - Longbow speaks for itself. There will be times when your enemy won't be pinched.

Fighting Style - Mariner with DM waive, or Dueling to +2 damage on your first attacks.

Hunter's Mark - If you can keep your concentration up, that's an extra 4d6 of damage on the second onwards.

But to each his own.

[RacingBreca]

This character should team up with someone with the mounted combat feat. Imagine a tank riding a dire wolf and always granting it advantage and being able to absorb attacks against it and then the wolf getting flurry of blows with advantage also!

This is awesome. My Paladin and I are concidering this. We will try it out on tuesday and give it a try. If it goes really well, maybe he will take a feat.

[Dalebert]

Skills - one extra skill, plus all you need to be the best tracker in the group.

Skill, meh. Tracking is worthless. Any time it comes up in AL, it's a story hook. The game's never going to turn on someone being a good tracker.


Favored Enemy - situational, but useful when the time comes.

Whoever came up with the favored enemy features this edition, I want to kick them in the crotch repeatedly. It's worthless steamy poops.


Range - Longbow speaks for itself. There will be times when your enemy won't be pinched.

Halfliings have disadvantage with longbows.


Fighting Style - Mariner with DM waive, or Dueling to +2 damage on your first attacks.

None of the fighting styles is really helpful to a monk. Staves are ideal early on because they can be used two-handed and later on, I'll do better dmg with unarmed strikes than with a one-handed monk weapon (1d6). Why would I want to limit myself to one-handed weapons?


Hunter's Mark - If you can keep your concentration up, that's an extra 4d6 of damage on the second onwards.

This isn't bad at all but it's nowhere near enough to justify the opportunity cost of all the benefits from wild shape. I feel like you didn't read above about features of long death monks that synergize to help boost the weaker forms, things like frequent access to chunks of temp hp that scale with my level and the ability to spend ki to stay in a form after a big attack that would otherwise revert me. The fact I have unarmored defense to boost my beast ACs and I'll eventually have 22 wisdom. The fact I can use unarmed strikes in any form and a bear has a 19 str so that's just 1 less for to hit and dmg than I will have at max dex in my halfling form. So the primary benefit is this massive chunk of extra hp I can gain twice per short rest while having full access to almost anything I can do as a monk, including communicate since I have telepathy.

Meanwhile I can gain things like pack tactics, climb speeds, blindsight combined with Fog Cloud, fast beast movement will get even faster via monk speed boosts. I'll be able to use a Staff of the Woodlands which is a +2 weapon and gives amazing benefits like Pass w/out Trace at will and I can Shillelagh it to benefit from my 22 wisdom. And I have one on another character ready to trade it. I'm also starting the game with a DM rewarded Insignia of Claws which will make all my beast attacks and unarmed strikes magical with +1 to hit and dmg.

[Sigreid]

I may need to get one of my friends to DM a game where I play a monk/druid just so I can play a kung-fu squirrel.

[Dalebert]

One of the main reasons this appealed to me is it's designed to be very death-proof in the death curse season. Even though they're limited to CR 1, the main forms I'll be using have between 26 and 37 hp and that will often be padded by my level + wisdom bonus temp hp. My hp get padded every time I reduce an enemy to 0.

In tier 1 it's obscene as moon druids tend to be, but it stays useful onward due to the higher AC than a pure moon druid would have plus scaling temp hp and I can continue to attack with unarmed strikes that scale even though the form doesn't.

[Specter]

About Dueling, your monk weapons will always deal as much damage as your unarmed strikes. So if your unarmed strike damage is a d8, that's your dagger/short sword damage too. So Dueling is, infact, +4 damage every round for a monk.

[RacingBreca]

One of the main reasons this appealed to me is it's designed to be very death-proof in the death curse season. Even though they're limited to CR 1, the main forms I'll be using have between 26 and 37 hp and that will often be padded by my level + wisdom bonus temp hp. My hp get padded every time I reduce an enemy to 0.

Interesting.

For my Monk/ Druid, each wild shape is a skin that the enemy must remove in order to unleash the avatar form.

[ghost_warlock]

Giant toad, y'all. You're not facing enemies - you're being served a buffet.

And if you're ever threatened by a succubi, remind them that they don't have resistance to acid. Hard to be pretentious when you realize you're just a grapple check away from the indignity of being eaten by a gorram toad

[Mortis_Elrod]

Ew, ranger? I don't do ranger. Ew. What would possibly be the point of that? What does two levels of ranger offer that would be better than wild shape? Which fighting style do you think goes best with monk?


well if you go revised you have Natural explorer (ignore difficult terrain, adv on initiative, adv vs targets who haven't acted yet and some group benifets) and well not all that much its d10 hit die for your base form.

[pwykersotz]

Has RAI been clarified to allow for Wild Shape to grow with character level instead of class level? Or is this built on the same RAW as Warlock dip scaling? Sounds fun either way, just curious.

[Dalebert]

well if you go revised you have Natural explorer..

Not familiar. That sounds like UA and thus not AL legal.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Not familiar. That sounds like UA and thus not AL legal.

Ah, forgot you in AL. Ignore me then.

[Dalebert]

Has RAI been clarified to allow for Wild Shape to grow with character level instead of class level?

No. Since he's only lvl 2 druid, he'll only ever get non-swimming and non-flying CR 1 beasts. However, I explain throughout the thread ways that his monk levels will help them continue to be useful, e.g. scaling temp hp, scaling unarmed strikes, etc. And even if it's only for a little while before he gets attacked and reverted, things like pack tactics on a monk can be awesome, or things like casting fog cloud and then having blindsight.

[Eärendle]

Has anyone tried Monk 17 + Druid 3? I play in a six person party that recently arrived in Chult with only a bard providing healing. My monk has strong story incentives to dip into druid, yet I am wondering whether a potential for Empty Body somehow exceeds the reality of three extra spell slots every long rest until then.

[Dalebert]

Personally the spells are pure icing to me and I would be frustrated by yet another level of delay in my monk abilities. Three levels seems really painful--8th level before 2 attacks and stunning strike, 10th level before evasion, etc. As it is, I expect to almost forget I even have spells. In certain contexts though, it will be really nice to throw up a Fog Cloud and turn into a giant spider with blindsight or to have Faerie Fire when there are invisible creatures and I want others to be able to see them. It will be nice to have Healing Word when the primary healer goes down. So certain contexts might remind me I can cast spells but mostly I don't care. I'm doing it for the shapeshift and 3rd level doesn't improve on that.

[Eärendle]

Thanks for the further explanation. I see now that I am coming at this from the opposite direction. My svirfneblin hasn't seen many beasts, so other than the appeal of ablative hit points, wild shape is largely beside the point for me. Extra spell slots, though, seem to offer more benefit to my group.

I understand what you mean about delayed abilities; the Long Death features are why I chose Monk in the first place. The party just reached 4th level and I stayed in Monk to take Observant. I figured I could spare my next level for Druid 1, then alternate Monk 5, Druid 2, Monk 6. That should give me enough info to gauge whether we need the additional healing of Druid 3.

[moveable feats]

If you're right about the rules, this is some impressive synergy. Have there been any official rulings about how things like Relentless Endurance or Mastery of Death work with Wild Shape?
Do beast-form natural weapon attacks count as unarmed strikes?