Help with a Barb-Fighter-? - Grapple Build.

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

https://orcpub2.com/pages/dnd/5e/characters/17592209263861

We are starting at level two. Planning on playing a grappler the whole way until campaign ends or we die. The question is where to go from here, and when. Obviously a 1 or 2 level dip in rogue is very temping, and is likely to be wanted at some point for Expertise, possibly as my 3rd level. I am not opposed to any class, including spell casters (obviously spells that would require a save are out).

I have read though this The 2.0 Grappler Manual (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468737-The-Grappler-s-Manual-(2-0)-Grappling-in-5th-Edition).

LizardFolk Barb 1 Fighter 1
Str 15
Dex 16
con 18
Int 11
Wis 10
Cha 8

[PeteNutButter]

Extra attack is pretty critical for a grappler build (double the grapple chances/foes grappled per round). I'd avoid picking up a third class before getting extra attack.

Has the game started? Is what you linked set in stone?

I'm guessing you rolled for stats? If you can, I'd rearrange them (higher str!). Why the fighter level? Starting barbarian/rogue would maximize grappling abilities. I'd suggest starting with those two classes if you can and take barbarian to 5 before anything else.

You really can't get much better than advantage and expertise. You'll find by mid levels you can out-grapple anything, as foes strong foes cannot keep up with that double proficiency. Ask a companion to learn/prepare enlarge spell for you in case you fight huge things. Grappling things like dragons is one of the best ways to prevent those frustrating moments when the foe flees to fight you another day.

[prototype00]

I wonder if Arcane Trickster would be a good rogue subtype to take for the buffing spells like Enlarge Person (so by all means dump Int).

[metaridley18]

Extra attack is pretty critical for a grappler build (double the grapple chances/foes grappled per round). I'd avoid picking up a third class before getting extra attack.

Has the game started? Is what you linked set in stone?

I'm guessing you rolled for stats? If you can, I'd rearrange them (higher str!). Why the fighter level? Starting barbarian/rogue would maximize grappling abilities. I'd suggest starting with those two classes if you can and take barbarian to 5 before anything else.

You really can't get much better than advantage and expertise. You'll find by mid levels you can out-grapple anything, as foes strong foes cannot keep up with that double proficiency. Ask a companion to learn/prepare enlarge spell for you in case you fight huge things. Grappling things like dragons is one of the best ways to prevent those frustrating moments when the foe flees to fight you another day.

+1. Having +4 to grapple at level 2 is pretty sucky. I don't understand why you would go fighter except for action surge, but Extra Attack and Expertise are superior. I'd go Barb 1/Rogue 1/Barb 4 in that order before fighter, or just straight Barb and more Str.


If you're set on self-buffing, you could go Barb 1/Rogue 1/Fighter 8, which is the first point you can get Enlarge via Fighter. Could also go for Wiz/Sorc 3 dip, but I don't think self-enlarging is worth 3 levels in a spell casting class. Better to go straight for Extra Attack in some way.

[qube]

I'd go barbarian 4 rogue 1 baribarian continue.

In order of importance I would rate

grappler feat (meaning v-human, or 4 ranks in the same class)
grapple boost (barbarian's advantage or rogue's expertise)
survivability (so, first level barbarian)

YMMV

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

Extra attack is pretty critical for a grappler build (double the grapple chances/foes grappled per round). I'd avoid picking up a third class before getting extra attack.

Has the game started? Is what you linked set in stone?

I'm guessing you rolled for stats? If you can, I'd rearrange them (higher str!). Why the fighter level? Starting barbarian/rogue would maximize grappling abilities. I'd suggest starting with those two classes if you can and take barbarian to 5 before anything else.

You really can't get much better than advantage and expertise. You'll find by mid levels you can out-grapple anything, as foes strong foes cannot keep up with that double proficiency. Ask a companion to learn/prepare enlarge spell for you in case you fight huge things. Grappling things like dragons is one of the best ways to prevent those frustrating moments when the foe flees to fight you another day.


+1. Having +4 to grapple at level 2 is pretty sucky. I don't understand why you would go fighter except for action surge, but Extra Attack and Expertise are superior. I'd go Barb 1/Rogue 1/Barb 4 in that order before fighter, or just straight Barb and more Str.


If you're set on self-buffing, you could go Barb 1/Rogue 1/Fighter 8, which is the first point you can get Enlarge via Fighter. Could also go for Wiz/Sorc 3 dip, but I don't think self-enlarging is worth 3 levels in a spell casting class. Better to go straight for Extra Attack in some way.



The game has not started, the only thing hard core set in stone are the stats, although I could move their location. My intent, although it could change, was to take the next level as fighter for action surge. It seems you are both in agreement that rogue is far more useful than fighter. Also for the dueling fighting style, but sneak attack is almost as good.


I'd go barbarian 4 rogue 1 baribarian continue.

In order of importance I would rate

grappler feat (meaning v-human, or 4 ranks in the same class)
grapple boost (barbarian's advantage or rogue's expertise)
survivability (so, first level barbarian)

YMMV

Grappler feat seems more like the curse a DM puts on a pair of whinged boots. It is just awful, and I can't believe they haven't issued an erratum.


I wonder if Arcane Trickster would be a good rogue subtype to take for the buffing spells like Enlarge Person (so by all means dump Int).

From my reading it is the way to go.

[prototype00]

From my reading it is the way to go.

Heh, not so fast, from my reading it seems like only one spell in your entire Arcane Trickster career can be Transmutation (or whatever other school). Every other pick has to be Enchantment or Illusion.

Are there enough buffing Enchantment or Illusion spells out there?

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

Heh, not so fast, from my reading it seems like only one spell in your entire Arcane Trickster career can be Transmutation (or whatever other school). Every other pick has to be Enchantment or Illusion.

Are there enough buffing Enchantment or Illusion spells out there?

Not sure to be honest. AS spellcasters go, for grappling it looks like bards win, druid for shape shifting and than wizards. But my hard core stat dumps mean they are plum out, and honestly I don't like messing with spells overly much.


https://orcpub2.com/pages/dnd/5e/characters/17592210045574

Do we all agree this is better?

Than the question is, do I go barb first? And then: Bear or Elk Totem. (Argument for elk for the extra speed, high jump and drop), however Bear seems better. Less damage is less damage after all.

[qube]

Grappler feat seems more like the curse a DM puts on a pair of whinged boots. It is just awful, and I can't believe they haven't issued an erratum.Though I see your point, I tend to follow the school of thought that puts the feat in green in the Grapplers Manual.

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

Though I see your point, I tend to follow the school of thought that puts the feat in green in the Grapplers Manual.

It depends on the DM. I suspect he'll rework it to be useful, or allow brawler.

[Lombra]

I'd start rogue 1 for skills and expertise, then just keep going barbarian. Do you know around which level will the campaign end?

The earliest you can get enlarge is from an ally spellcaster, or fom a 3 level dip in a full caster. AT gives it to you only by level 8.

[Citan]

https://orcpub2.com/pages/dnd/5e/characters/17592209263861

We are starting at level two. Planning on playing a grappler the whole way until campaign ends or we die. The question is where to go from here, and when. Obviously a 1 or 2 level dip in rogue is very temping, and is likely to be wanted at some point for Expertise, possibly as my 3rd level. I am not opposed to any class, including spell casters (obviously spells that would require a save are out).

I have read though this The 2.0 Grappler Manual (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468737-The-Grappler-s-Manual-(2-0)-Grappling-in-5th-Edition).

LizardFolk Barb 1 Fighter 1
Str 15
Dex 16
con 18
Int 11
Wis 10
Cha 8
Hi!
To be honest I don't understand the fighter level. ;)

From what I know you have two good ways to go since in all cases you want...
- Great chance to grapple: so decent STR, Expertise in Athletics and advantage on STR checks are a given.
- Good+ AC: because grappled enemy will obviously attack you.
- Good mobility: because you will want a way to pull back with or without your prey.
So...

Either the "pure martial one"
- Bear Barbarian 5+: will be the chassis, because you have Rage (STR advantage) and resistance.
- Rogue 5: either go Thief for bonus action funny things, or Swashbuckler for free disengage on attack and ability to apply Sneak Attack in duel.
The good thing of this is you don't have to change anything with your stats.
Start Barbarian, immediately take Rogue 1, then Barb up to 5, then Rogue 2, then however you want.

OR the "magic-empowered one"
If you cannot move your stats...
- Eldricht Knight 6+
- Rogue 1-2-3+ (levels taken in-between Fighter ones).
Fighter > Rogue > Fighter up to 5 > Rogue > Fighter up to 8 then pick Rogue levels when you want (keeping Fighter 11 in your final build).

If you can move your stats
INT based:
Bladesinger + Arcane Trickster Rogue + starting Fighter level
Str 11 / Dex 16 / Con 15 / Int 18 / Wis 10 / Cha 8

Fighter 1 > Wizard 1 > Rogue 1 > Bladesinger 3 > Rogue 2 > Bladesinger 6.
OR, if you think you will go high level, ditch the Fighter starting level, start Rogue, immediately go Bladesinger 3 then go Rogue all the way up to 11 (grabbing Resilient: Constitution). Reliable Talent + Expertise means you won't even need any magical buff anymore.
Note though that it also means your DM would accept that you can use the bonus action from "dual-wielding" to grapple, which is somewhat wonky.

CHA based:
Fighter 1 > Lore Bard 3 > Eldricht Knight + (keep Bard 6 in end build for short-rest Bardic Inspiration and Magic Secrets).
This is actually the best grappler you could ever make at early levels (at high level, nobody would beat an Arcane Trickster Rogue).
Because you get Enhance Ability + Expertise + Cutting Words.
As for why starting STR 16, CON 18 and not reverse? Because you will take the Grappler feat. So once grappled you will have advantage. So 1 point less is not that important considering the huge bonus to checks then attacks. Whereas having more HP every level and better concentration will be very important.

WIS based:
Str 11 / Dex 18 / Con 15 / Int 8 / Wis 16 / Cha 10

Rogue 2 (Expertise, Cunning Action) / Open Hand Monk X (Cleric 3+ for Enhance Ability). I don't think any explanation is required here. ;) Even if you put a low STR score, it will be quickly compensated. And you boast great mobility too. You can safely keep your WIS as low as 16 because as a Grappler, your focus won't be that much on Stunning Strike, instead you will probably blow most of your Ki on Flurry of Blows to get more chance at grappling or dealing damage.
If you grab the Cleric levels for Enhance Ability, then grabbing Resilient: Constitution is a good choice. Otherwise, just use your first ASI to even both STR and CON.


Pick your build ;)

[PeteNutButter]

Not sure to be honest. AS spellcasters go, for grappling it looks like bards win, druid for shape shifting and than wizards. But my hard core stat dumps mean they are plum out, and honestly I don't like messing with spells overly much.


https://orcpub2.com/pages/dnd/5e/characters/17592210045574

Do we all agree this is better?

Than the question is, do I go barb first? And then: Bear or Elk Totem. (Argument for elk for the extra speed, high jump and drop), however Bear seems better. Less damage is less damage after all.

Don't get caught up in spell casting if your core class is barbarian. Leave that to your companions, so you can rage more frequently. If your party lacks an arcane caster then maybe consider it.

If there is one, it shouldn't be hard to convince them to hold onto one spell for you. And unless you are playing SKT or something else where huge enemies are very common, I'd not worry about it.

For your stats just swap dex and str, and then wis and int. You can take resilient wisdom later on, and bump it to a 12. For str over dex, it just makes more sense as you can use str with a finesse weapon to achieve both sneak attack and rage damage. The other way around you don't get the rage damage boost. Unarmored AC is a bit of a trap. You are better off putting on armor for the majority of your career.

[GlenSmash!]

is your DM allowing UA? If so the Brawny feat can be used to get expertise in Athletics negating the need for a rogue dip. Also Scout Fighter can use a superiority die to add to Athletics checks.

Currently a Barb/Scout Fighter with Brawny is my favorite way to build a non-spellcasting grappler since it get's double proficiency, advantage, and a superiority die to grapple and shove checks.

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

is your DM allowing UA? If so the Brawny feat can be used to get expertise in Athletics negating the need for a rogue dip. Also Scout Fighter can use a superiority die to add to Athletics checks.

Currently a Barb/Scout Fighter with Brawny is my favorite way to build a non-spellcasting grappler since it get's double proficiency, advantage, and a superiority die to grapple and shove checks.

He allowed most of the other stuff, but not that specifically. I suspect he well however.