Skill Check Table Crowdsourcing Effort

[strangebloke]

There's a thread that's been blowing up recently called 'Consequences of Variability.' I won't digress, but it's about how not having a skill check DC table opened up room for a lot of variable play, but that also led to a lot of DMs feeling entitled to (somewhat foolish) DCs. A few DMs (myself being the most vocal) argued that having an example skill DC table might be useful for purposes of talking about skill DCs.

In other words, come up with a (generally) reasonable table for a variety of skill checks that follows RAW where possible.

Obviously, no one will ever agree on anything completely, but if most DMs who wanted a table in the first place don't find most of it abhorrent, I'll count that as a win.

I started a google sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JcNhtOPAM2aE182b654eQ71DrVgn_OxFI7NB-XQ7UkQ/edit?usp=sharing)

Green highlighted text indicates a RAW ruling. Yellow boxes have some basis, if not much, in RAW, and Purple Boxes are arbitrary rulings from my own games.

I am not asking you to critique my reasons for doing this. I am not asking you to argue with me about whether or not this is a good idea. I am asking for help with a large-scale organization project. My thought here is to provide a tool to DMs that want it.

What this list is not intended to cover:
-opposed checks, including stealth, deception, insight, investigation, perception, etc.
-'Story' checks, like knowing the story of an obscure great hero through a history check. Anything we'd put for these would essentially be 'Very Hard: 25.' All the 'knowledge' skills sort of fall into this, IMO. Nature and Arcana might not though.
-Saves, attack rolls. Spells that are resisted by skills do count.
-Player specific DCs. These DCs are intended to be player agnostic. Player has a modifier based off of character level
-hyper specific one off things like this: 'A player proficient with the herbalist's kit can make a tea out of the brightflower to cure sightblight.'

Things I do need:
-Green boxes. If there are any explicit skill DCs that the books list that I've missed, let me know.
-Your own rulings for purple boxes, yellow boxes
-skill usages called out in the books that I've missed. (IE: survival can be used to make camp in a secure spot. Its a common usage of survival, but I didn't find it in the books.)

[Unoriginal]

Just to say, strangeblock, about what you mentioned in the other thread:

Your rulings are probably not horrible. You should have more confidence in your rulings, and in your capacities as a DM.

[strangebloke]

Just to say, strangeblock, about what you mentioned in the other thread:

Your rulings are probably not horrible. You should have more confidence in your rulings, and in your capacities as a DM.

thank.

I do ok. But I like guidelines in general, and I adore sanity checks. (the IRL kind. Not the DND kind)

In any case, I think that this chart will be useful as a collection of every RAW DC. So that people don't have to go hunting for what the DMG reccomends for, for instance, survival.

[Dimers]

A good project. I get the impression that this sheet is intended for normal-world-physics low fantasy ...? I advocate separate sheets within the doc for gritty, low-fantasy, high-fantasy and superhero styles of play, some of which would ignore the publications' base numbers. But that may be more than you want.

[strangebloke]

A good project. I get the impression that this sheet is intended for normal-world-physics low fantasy ...? I advocate separate sheets within the doc for gritty, low-fantasy, high-fantasy and superhero styles of play, some of which would ignore the publications' base numbers. But that may be more than you want.

Well, you could say that this sheet is for establishing what qualifies as 'low fantasy.' The green stuff is just from the PHB and core, so I wouldn't really classify that as either 'low' or 'high.' 'Default,' is more like it.

I like the idea of separate sheets. I will do that once I'm sure that I haev all the skills in. I'm going to be putting an asterisk next to all checks that can be opposed.

[mephnick]

I can't wait for everyone to come in here, disagree on what numbers should be where, and then realize what the 5e skill system was trying to accomplish by not setting concrete DCs in the first place.

You're already making separate sheets for different gaming styles! I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

[strangebloke]

I can't wait for everyone to come in here, disagree on what numbers should be where, and then realize what the 5e skill system was trying to accomplish by not setting concrete DCs in the first place.

You're already making separate sheets for different gaming styles! I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Haha. I'm not making a separate list, at least not for a long time.

Also, read the OP.

Do you have anything useful to contribute, or are you just a troll trying to bait out a fight?

If the latter, LEAVE. Join the twelve page fight.

[scalyfreak]

-skill usages called out in the books that I've missed. (IE: survival can be used to make camp in a secure spot. Its a common usage of survival, but I didn't find it in the books.)

For animal handling, I would suggest adding checks for befriending animals, domestic or not, and for training them.

[Dimers]

Well, you could say that this sheet is for establishing what qualifies as 'low fantasy.' The green stuff is just from the PHB and core, so I wouldn't really classify that as either 'low' or 'high.' 'Default,' is more like it.

I'll bookmark this page so that if/when I run across skill stuff without existing DCs, I can come here and help the project. You want people editing the doc or just commenting in the thread?

[strangebloke]

For animal handling, I would suggest adding checks for befriending animals, domestic or not, and for training them.

Thanks for the suggestion. When you say befriending, to be clear, I assume that you mean something akin to a persuasion check, but for animals? Like you encounter a non-hostile beast and you want to make it friendly? Would you say that was a wis check or a animal handling check? I have my own thoughts, but I'm making this thread because I'm interested in hearing other thoughts.

I would also argue that most domestic animals are friendly by default, except for guard animals and the like, which will probably be pretty analogous to wolves and such.

Training an animal is something kind of strange. I would argue that's more a downtime activity thing, and I don't want to touch that with an 11 foot pole.

If you had to divide the following creatures as easy, medium, hard etc. how would you do it?

Eagle, Owlbear, Dire Wolf, Griffon, Rust Monster, Roc, Remorhaz.

[strangebloke]

I'll bookmark this page so that if/when I run across skill stuff without existing DCs, I can come here and help the project. You want people editing the doc or just commenting in the thread?

I encourage people to comment on the doc, if they're filling in a blank, or on this thread if they want a discussion or want a skill use added. I don't want to let people make changes en masse because, well, that's just asking for trouble.

[Telok]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ps6fqC-WGzkZbFix7Ak1T7VU4YUEFXJJFWXLBww2Gxg/edit?usp=sharing

Posting from my phone, but that ought to work somewhat. It's five books worth of official WotC check DCs.

[strangebloke]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ps6fqC-WGzkZbFix7Ak1T7VU4YUEFXJJFWXLBww2Gxg/edit?usp=sharing

Posting from my phone, but that ought to work somewhat. It's five books worth of official WotC check DCs.

That's awesome, thanks.

[scalyfreak]

Thanks for the suggestion. When you say befriending, to be clear, I assume that you mean something akin to a persuasion check, but for animals? Like you encounter a non-hostile beast and you want to make it friendly? Would you say that was a wis check or a animal handling check? I have my own thoughts, but I'm making this thread because I'm interested in hearing other thoughts.

Ir can be either one. An animal handling check where you get to add your wisdom modifier on top of all other modifiers, for example. Or the wisdom check has advantage because you have animal handling, so you understand animals much better than someone who doesn't.

And yes, I had something similar to a persuasion roll in mind. You're essentially trying to persuade the animal to like you and want to be friends (so it won't attack you when you return tomorrow night to break into the house). Repeated efforts over time would lead to something similar to actually charming the animal, though how long that takes would once again vary by species. Easy with a stray dog if you feed it, not so easy with a griffon.



I would also argue that most domestic animals are friendly by default, except for guard animals and the like, which will probably be pretty analogous to wolves and such.

And except for abused domestic animals, they are most certainly not friendly. However, a successful animal handling check might reveal that the large dog that looks aggressive is actually afraid, and is trying to make you think he's very scary, so you won't come near him and hurt him.



Training an animal is something kind of strange. I would argue that's more a downtime activity thing, and I don't want to touch that with an 11 foot pole.

Fair enough.

Although, if a knight wants to buy a regular riding horse and then train it to become a battle horse during several months of downtime, that might warrant an animal handling check or three.



If you had to divide the following creatures as easy, medium, hard etc. how would you do it?

Eagle, Owlbear, Dire Wolf, Griffon, Rust Monster, Roc, Remorhaz.

This question is hard for me to answer. As a perpetual player, I don't own a monster manual so I had to look them up online, which was no help.

However, I would say that trying to convince one of these creatures that you're friendly and that it wants to be friends with you, should be along the same guidelines as persuasion checks. Are the circumstances around you helping or not? If the owlbear just watched you kill its best friend, it's not going to be interested in being friends with you. Are you familiar with what the creature wants and likes? The rust monster wants to snuggle your spare armor. He loves you for actually handing it to him. Solitary creatures will find you annoying, pack animals who have endured forced isolation will be easy to befriend, and so on.

It's a social skill of sorts, and as such, when and how you use it should matter.

[Zalabim]

I see you have the Track and Navigating sections for Survival, but not Foraging. That's on page 111 in the DMG.

DC 10 for "abundant...", DC 15 for "limited...", and DC 20 for "very little, if any, food and water sources."

[Slipperychicken]

I knew I saved this for a reason:


Ability(Skill)DCDescriptionSource
[td][Casting Stat](Dispel Magic)13Dispel a fire-breathing statueDMG 122-123
[td][Casting Stat](Dispel Magic)18Remove a sympathy effect compelling you to put your hand in a statue's mouthDMG 122-123
[td]Charisma(any)0Make a friendly creature do something without risks or sacrificesDMG 245
[td]Charisma(any)0Make a hostile creature oppose your actions, and may take risks to do soDMG 245
[td]Charisma(any)0Make an indifferent creature offer neither help nor harm to youDMG 245
[td]Charisma(any)10Make a friendly creature do something with a minor risk or sacrificeDMG 245
[td]Charisma(any)10Make a hostile creature offer neither help nor harm to youDMG 245
[td]Charisma(any)10Make an indifferent creature do something without risks or sacrificesDMG 245
[td]Charisma(any)20Make a friendly creature do something with a significant risk or sacrificeDMG 245
[td]Charisma(any)20Make a hostile creature do something that involves no risks or sacrificesDMG 245
[td]Charisma(any)20Make an indifferent creature do something with a minor risk or sacrificeDMG 245
[td]Charisma(Deception)15Sow a RumorDMG 131
[td]Charisma(Intimidation)10Slip past a beggar blocking your way during a chaseDMG 254
[td]Charisma(Intimidation)15Run through a brawl unimpeded (failure means 2d4 dmg, brawl is difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Charisma(Persuasion)15Sow a RumorDMG 131
[td]Constitution10Keep dashing in an extended chase (after doing so 3+ con mod times), without gaining exhaustionDMG 252
[td]Constitution(Saving Throw)10Avoid being blinded for 1 turn by blowing sand, dirt, ash, snow or pollenDMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)10Run through a pack of dogs unimpeded (failure means 1d4 dmg, pack counts as difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)10Cross a stream, ravine, or rock bed during a chase. Failure means it counts as difficult terrainDMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)10Force your way through a crowd during a chase (failure means it's treated as difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)10Navigate a maze of barrels, crates, or similar obstacles (failure means it's treated as difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)10Navigate uneven ground unimpeded during a chase (failure means it's counted as difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)10Run through a patch of brush unimpeded during a chase (failure means it's counted as difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)10Slip past a beggar blocking your way during a chaseDMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)12Moving aong a sharp slope covered in loose gravel without sliding to the bottomOotA
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)15Get past a large obstacle such as a horse or cartDMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)15Run through a brawl unimpeded (failure means 2d4 dmg, brawl is difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Saving Throw)10Avoid being knocked prone by a stampede of spooked animalsDMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Saving Throw)10Make a sharp turn to avoid colliding with something impassable during a chaseDMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Saving Throw)10Navigate a sudden drop that catches you by surprise (failure means fall damage and prone)DMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Saving throw)10Remain standing while running on rain, spilled oil or other liquidDMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Saving Throw)15Avoid a patch of razorvine without taking damageDMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Saving Throw)15Avoid being caught in a hunter's snare after blundering into itDMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Thieves' Tools)15Disable a collapsing roof trapDMG 122-123
[td]Dexterity(Thieves' Tools)15Disable a Falling Net trapDMG 122-123
[td]Dexterity(Thieves' Tools)15Disable a poison darts trapDMG 122-123
[td]Intelligence(Arcana)20Recognize a Sphere of Annihilation for what it isDMG 122-123
[td]Intelligence(Investigation)13Spotting that damage to a room is recentOotA
[td]Intelligence(Investigation)15Confirm that a hidden pit is indeed a pitDMG 122-123
[td]Intelligence(Investigation)15Deduce the presence of a poison dart trap's pressure plateDMG 122-123
[td]Intelligence(Investigation)15Notice a trap door on the ceiling for a rolling sphere trapDMG 122-123
[td]Intelligence(Investigation)15Notice the pressure plate for a rolling sphere trapDMG 122-123
[td]Intelligence(Investigation)20Find a buyer for a magic item you wish to sellDMG 130
[td]Intelligence(Investigation)20Spotting a poison needle trapOotA
[td]Intelligence(Nature)20Harvest poison from a subdued or dead venomous creatureDMG 258
[td]Intelligence(Poison Kit)20Harvest poison from a subdued or dead venomous creatureDMG 258
[td]Perception?10Spot a collapsing roof trapDMG 122-123
[td]Perception?10Spot a falling net trapDMG 122-123
[td]Perception?10Spot a simple pit trapDMG 122-123
[td]Perception?15Spot a fire-breathing statue trapDMG 122-123
[td]Perception?15Spot a poison darts trapDMG 122-123
[td]Strength10Free Someone from a fallen net trapDMG 122-123
[td]Strength18Single-handedly turn a two-man handcrank to operate a winch for an elevator large enough for 4 peopleOotA
[td]Strength20Force open the cover of a locking pit trapDMG 122-123
[td]Strength20Slow down or stop a triggered rolling sphere trapDMG 122-123
[td]Strength(Athletics)10Pull yourself up onto a giant spiderweb after grabbing it to avoid a fallOotA
[td]Strength(Athletics)10Cross a stream, ravine, or rock bed during a chase. Failure means it counts as difficult terrainDMG 254
[td]Strength(Athletics)10Force your way through a crowd during a chase (failure means it's treated as difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Strength(Athletics)10Run through a patch of brush unimpeded during a chase (failure means it's counted as difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Strength(Athletics)10Slip past a beggar blocking your way during a chaseDMG 254
[td]Strength(Athletics)11Pull yourself out of a pit trap after making a dex save to grab the edgeOotA
[td]Strength(Athletics)15Climbing a rocky chasm wall without rock climbing gearOotA
[td]Strength(Athletics)15Climbing out of the bottom of a muddy sinkholeOotA
[td]Strength(Athletics)15Run through a brawl unimpeded (failure means 2d4 dmg, brawl is difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Strength(Saving Throw)10Smash through a large stained glass window or similar barrier during a chaseDMG 254
[td]Wisdom(Insight)12Spotting that someone is uncomfortable with recent actions taken by their rulerOotA
[td]Wisdom(Perception)15Notice a trap door on the ceiling for a rolling sphere trapDMG 122-123
[td]Wisdom(Perception)15Notice the pressure plate for a rolling sphere trapDMG 122-123
[td]Wisdom(Perception)15Spot a hidden pitDMG 122-123
[td]Wisdom(Perception)15Spot a locking pitDMG 122-123
[td]Wisdom(Perception)15Spotting a hidden passageOotA
[td]Wisdom(Survival)10Not getting lost in the basic underdarkOotA
[td]Wisdom(Survival)10Track a creature on soft ground (+5 each day since, -5 if left a trail)DMG 244
[td]Wisdom(Survival)12Not getting lost in an actual mazeOotA
[td]Wisdom(Survival)15Track a creature on dirt or grass (same mods as soft ground)DMG 244
[td]Wisdom(Survival)20Track a creature on bare stone (same mods as soft ground)DMG 244[td]


Edit: If we want people to actually use these lists, we need a more readable table format. Here's what I propose:


Dexterity(Acrobatics)
DCExamplesSource(s)
"10-Run through a pack of dogs unimpeded (failure means 1d4 dmg, pack counts as difficult terrain)
-Cross a stream, ravine, or rock bed during a chase. Failure means it counts as difficult terrain
-Force your way through a crowd during a chase (failure means it's treated as difficult terrain)
-Navigate a maze of barrels, crates, or similar obstacles (failure means it's treated as difficult terrain)
-Navigate uneven ground unimpeded during a chase (failure means it's counted as difficult terrain)
-Slip past a beggar blocking your way during a chase
-Run through a patch of brush unimpeded during a chase (failure means it's counted as difficult terrain)DMG 254"
12-Moving aong a sharp slope covered in loose gravel without sliding to the bottomOotA
"15-Get past a large obstacle such as a horse or cart (during a chase, without losing ground)
-Run through a brawl unimpeded (failure means 2d4 dmg, brawl is difficult terrain)DMG 254"


[edit] If we can get tables like the above for each skill and put them in a post somewhere, that could give people a very useful reference. Also, I think that to build credibility, we should make it very clear where any given example came from, especially if it was written by a community member rather than WotC.

[strangebloke]

I knew I saved this for a reason:


Ability(Skill)DCDescriptionSource
[td][Casting Stat](Dispel Magic)13Dispel a fire-breathing statueDMG 122-123
[td][Casting Stat](Dispel Magic)18Remove a sympathy effect compelling you to put your hand in a statue's mouthDMG 122-123
[td]Charisma(any)0Make a friendly creature do something without risks or sacrificesDMG 245
[td]Charisma(any)0Make a hostile creature oppose your actions, and may take risks to do soDMG 245
[td]Charisma(any)0Make an indifferent creature offer neither help nor harm to youDMG 245
[td]Charisma(any)10Make a friendly creature do something with a minor risk or sacrificeDMG 245
[td]Charisma(any)10Make a hostile creature offer neither help nor harm to youDMG 245
[td]Charisma(any)10Make an indifferent creature do something without risks or sacrificesDMG 245
[td]Charisma(any)20Make a friendly creature do something with a significant risk or sacrificeDMG 245
[td]Charisma(any)20Make a hostile creature do something that involves no risks or sacrificesDMG 245
[td]Charisma(any)20Make an indifferent creature do something with a minor risk or sacrificeDMG 245
[td]Charisma(Deception)15Sow a RumorDMG 131
[td]Charisma(Intimidation)10Slip past a beggar blocking your way during a chaseDMG 254
[td]Charisma(Intimidation)15Run through a brawl unimpeded (failure means 2d4 dmg, brawl is difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Charisma(Persuasion)15Sow a RumorDMG 131
[td]Constitution10Keep dashing in an extended chase (after doing so 3+ con mod times), without gaining exhaustionDMG 252
[td]Constitution(Saving Throw)10Avoid being blinded for 1 turn by blowing sand, dirt, ash, snow or pollenDMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)10Run through a pack of dogs unimpeded (failure means 1d4 dmg, pack counts as difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)10Cross a stream, ravine, or rock bed during a chase. Failure means it counts as difficult terrainDMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)10Force your way through a crowd during a chase (failure means it's treated as difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)10Navigate a maze of barrels, crates, or similar obstacles (failure means it's treated as difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)10Navigate uneven ground unimpeded during a chase (failure means it's counted as difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)10Run through a patch of brush unimpeded during a chase (failure means it's counted as difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)10Slip past a beggar blocking your way during a chaseDMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)12Moving aong a sharp slope covered in loose gravel without sliding to the bottomOotA
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)15Get past a large obstacle such as a horse or cartDMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Acrobatics)15Run through a brawl unimpeded (failure means 2d4 dmg, brawl is difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Saving Throw)10Avoid being knocked prone by a stampede of spooked animalsDMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Saving Throw)10Make a sharp turn to avoid colliding with something impassable during a chaseDMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Saving Throw)10Navigate a sudden drop that catches you by surprise (failure means fall damage and prone)DMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Saving throw)10Remain standing while running on rain, spilled oil or other liquidDMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Saving Throw)15Avoid a patch of razorvine without taking damageDMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Saving Throw)15Avoid being caught in a hunter's snare after blundering into itDMG 254
[td]Dexterity(Thieves' Tools)15Disable a collapsing roof trapDMG 122-123
[td]Dexterity(Thieves' Tools)15Disable a Falling Net trapDMG 122-123
[td]Dexterity(Thieves' Tools)15Disable a poison darts trapDMG 122-123
[td]Intelligence(Arcana)20Recognize a Sphere of Annihilation for what it isDMG 122-123
[td]Intelligence(Investigation)13Spotting that damage to a room is recentOotA
[td]Intelligence(Investigation)15Confirm that a hidden pit is indeed a pitDMG 122-123
[td]Intelligence(Investigation)15Deduce the presence of a poison dart trap's pressure plateDMG 122-123
[td]Intelligence(Investigation)15Notice a trap door on the ceiling for a rolling sphere trapDMG 122-123
[td]Intelligence(Investigation)15Notice the pressure plate for a rolling sphere trapDMG 122-123
[td]Intelligence(Investigation)20Find a buyer for a magic item you wish to sellDMG 130
[td]Intelligence(Investigation)20Spotting a poison needle trapOotA
[td]Intelligence(Nature)20Harvest poison from a subdued or dead venomous creatureDMG 258
[td]Intelligence(Poison Kit)20Harvest poison from a subdued or dead venomous creatureDMG 258
[td]Perception?10Spot a collapsing roof trapDMG 122-123
[td]Perception?10Spot a falling net trapDMG 122-123
[td]Perception?10Spot a simple pit trapDMG 122-123
[td]Perception?15Spot a fire-breathing statue trapDMG 122-123
[td]Perception?15Spot a poison darts trapDMG 122-123
[td]Strength10Free Someone from a fallen net trapDMG 122-123
[td]Strength18Single-handedly turn a two-man handcrank to operate a winch for an elevator large enough for 4 peopleOotA
[td]Strength20Force open the cover of a locking pit trapDMG 122-123
[td]Strength20Slow down or stop a triggered rolling sphere trapDMG 122-123
[td]Strength(Athletics)10Pull yourself up onto a giant spiderweb after grabbing it to avoid a fallOotA
[td]Strength(Athletics)10Cross a stream, ravine, or rock bed during a chase. Failure means it counts as difficult terrainDMG 254
[td]Strength(Athletics)10Force your way through a crowd during a chase (failure means it's treated as difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Strength(Athletics)10Run through a patch of brush unimpeded during a chase (failure means it's counted as difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Strength(Athletics)10Slip past a beggar blocking your way during a chaseDMG 254
[td]Strength(Athletics)11Pull yourself out of a pit trap after making a dex save to grab the edgeOotA
[td]Strength(Athletics)15Climbing a rocky chasm wall without rock climbing gearOotA
[td]Strength(Athletics)15Climbing out of the bottom of a muddy sinkholeOotA
[td]Strength(Athletics)15Run through a brawl unimpeded (failure means 2d4 dmg, brawl is difficult terrain)DMG 254
[td]Strength(Saving Throw)10Smash through a large stained glass window or similar barrier during a chaseDMG 254
[td]Wisdom(Insight)12Spotting that someone is uncomfortable with recent actions taken by their rulerOotA
[td]Wisdom(Perception)15Notice a trap door on the ceiling for a rolling sphere trapDMG 122-123
[td]Wisdom(Perception)15Notice the pressure plate for a rolling sphere trapDMG 122-123
[td]Wisdom(Perception)15Spot a hidden pitDMG 122-123
[td]Wisdom(Perception)15Spot a locking pitDMG 122-123
[td]Wisdom(Perception)15Spotting a hidden passageOotA
[td]Wisdom(Survival)10Not getting lost in the basic underdarkOotA
[td]Wisdom(Survival)10Track a creature on soft ground (+5 each day since, -5 if left a trail)DMG 244
[td]Wisdom(Survival)12Not getting lost in an actual mazeOotA
[td]Wisdom(Survival)15Track a creature on dirt or grass (same mods as soft ground)DMG 244
[td]Wisdom(Survival)20Track a creature on bare stone (same mods as soft ground)DMG 244[td]


Edit: If we want people to actually use these lists, we need a more readable table format. Here's what I propose:


Dexterity(Acrobatics)
DCExamplesSource(s)
"10-Run through a pack of dogs unimpeded (failure means 1d4 dmg, pack counts as difficult terrain)
-Cross a stream, ravine, or rock bed during a chase. Failure means it counts as difficult terrain
-Force your way through a crowd during a chase (failure means it's treated as difficult terrain)
-Navigate a maze of barrels, crates, or similar obstacles (failure means it's treated as difficult terrain)
-Navigate uneven ground unimpeded during a chase (failure means it's counted as difficult terrain)
-Slip past a beggar blocking your way during a chase
-Run through a patch of brush unimpeded during a chase (failure means it's counted as difficult terrain)DMG 254"
12-Moving aong a sharp slope covered in loose gravel without sliding to the bottomOotA
"15-Get past a large obstacle such as a horse or cart (during a chase, without losing ground)
-Run through a brawl unimpeded (failure means 2d4 dmg, brawl is difficult terrain)DMG 254"


If we can get a table like the above for every skill and put it in a post somewhere, that could give people a very useful reference. Also, I think that to build credibility, we should make it very clear where any given example came from, especially if it was written by a community member rather than WotC.

I can assent to this format being more readable, but for purposes of entry, I think that my page is much better.

I won't have basically any time to work on this today, but I can add stuff in that people have posted tomorrow.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I can assent to this format being more readable, but for purposes of entry, I think that my page is much better.

I won't have basically any time to work on this today, but I can add stuff in that people have posted tomorrow.

My problem with this format (and the sourcing) is that it removes the context. Those DC 10 checks are in the context of a chase scene using the optional chase rules. In most other cases, those might be no check at all (since there's no meaningful consequence for failure). Difficult terrain or 1d4 damage outside of a time-pressure situation like combat or a chase is boring (at least to me).

The same goes for the spoilered list--it removes vital context. Although you can describe two events as both being "climbing a 40-foot cliff," those two cliffs aren't necessarily the same (or even similar beyond their height and basic material). And doing it under stress (with arrows flying around, for example) is completely different than doing it in an unhurried manner.

I think this (making a table) can be done, but I'm not too fond of this particular way of doing so.

[Slipperychicken]

I think this (making a table) can be done, but I'm not too fond of this particular way of doing so.

What are some areas we could improve on? Would writing in more context for example be more helpful for readers?

[DanyBallon]

What are some areas we could improve on? Would writing in more context for example be more helpful for readers?

Maybe just add below the page reference a note that it covers chase rules, or something similar. It would give an hint of the context.

In the case of arbitrary DC (i.e. navigating through a jungle = DC15) then I just don't know how to contextualise them. I see them too arbitrary to be useful :smallconfused:

[PhoenixPhyre]

Maybe just add below the page reference a note that it covers chase rules, or something similar. It would give an hint of the context.

In the case of arbitrary DC (i.e. navigating through a jungle = DC15) then I just don't know how to contextualise them. I see them too arbitrary to be useful :smallconfused:

This. Rules (and DCs, and consequences) for chases are going to be substantially different than those same tasks under other circumstances. Maybe pull out the chase (and other such contextual things) out to a separate Chases table.

[SiCK_Boy]

And doing it under stress (with arrows flying around, for example) is completely different than doing it in an unhurried manner.

Wouldn't that (the stressfulness of the situation) just impose disadvantage rather than change the actual DC? Even most other environmental elements (like rain making it more slippery, for example) could also be made to impose disadvantage rather than change the DC.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Wouldn't that (the stressfulness of the situation) just impose disadvantage rather than change the actual DC? Even most other environmental elements (like rain making it more slippery, for example) could also be made to impose disadvantage rather than change the DC.

For me, the presence or absence of stress (and thus the meaningfulness of the consequences) is the difference between DC 0 and DC > 0. Things attempted in the absence of some circumstance that imposes meaningful consequences for failure are either automatic failures (if impossible) or they're automatic successes (with the possibility of increased time if that might important). Neither of those require setting a DC at all. We're not simulating a world here--we skip the boring parts.

As to imposing disadvantage/advantage vs changing the DC, I could go either way, but I tend to reserve those for things that depend on the player's chosen approach. Trying to cross a particular piece of slippery ground, for example, might in this case be DC 10. If they're running, that's disadvantage. If they're carefully bracing themselves with a walking stick or have strung a rope/tied themselves together, that might be advantage. In conversation, the DC is set by three things--the preexisting attitude of the NPC, the magnitude/risk of the request, and the broad approach (deception, intimidation, or persuasion). Advantage or disadvantage would be due to things like sending the dwarf to talk to the racist elf or the small-scale approach (appealing to duty for the lawful types, talking up the rewards to the greedy, etc). That's just me, though.

[SiCK_Boy]

You've mentioned multiple times that simple damage is boring and thus not worthy of bothering with a DC, but I have to disagree, at least as far as climbing DCs are concerned. For climbing situations, where the length of the climb should not impact the DC itself (assuming the surface/conditions are the same all along) - that would only influence how many checks are required - but where a failure can lead to significant bludgeoning damage in case of a fall, I think it matters to set a DC even in the absence of other temporal constraints. After all, you don't know that the players will just take a long rest and heal right after if they get injured, and they could decide to pursue their adventure right away, meaning the climb was a challenge and they did pay a price (in hp) to get through that challenge.

Even in the absence of stress, a climb could require a check. Now plenty (in fact, most) of climb should not require one (as covered by the climbing speed rules; it's just difficult terrain and, thus, a slower progression), but there could still be cases where, without an external pressure/stress applied, the conditions of the surface makes it necessary to ask for a check.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Even in the absence of stress, a climb could require a check. Now plenty (in fact, most) of climb should not require one (as covered by the climbing speed rules; it's just difficult terrain and, thus, a slower progression), but there could still be cases where, without an external pressure/stress applied, a) the conditions of the surface makes it necessary to ask for a check.

a) that's allowed right in the rules as written--the DM may call for checks for particularly smooth surfaces.

Are you that likely to fall off when you're right at the top (for maximum damage)? Or somewhere along the way? How do you decide where (and thus how much damage) you fall off if you fail? If you do it where a worse failure (lower check result) results in worse damage, you're saying that you got further before falling off. The other way just makes no sense at all--a higher result has a worse consequence? Neither sits well for me.

I'm not so fond of repeatable checks (like climbing checks tend to be if the consequence is just damage). The consequences should be such as to force the player to take a new approach. Maybe they have to have someone else climb and lower a rope. Maybe use mage hand to tie a rope off a ways up. Either way, a failed check means you have to change the circumstances before you can try again.

For a pit trap (for example), a failure means that until something changes that character isn't getting out. That puts the party at a disadvantage against anything wandering by and/or splits the party.

Sometimes, lost time is a significant consequence (racing to save the world, for example). Then, calling for checks that merely cost time can be appropriate. Remember that, by the rules, any character can auto-succeed on any possible task by taking 10x the normal time. Thus, even on slick climbs, if time isn't a factor and there are no other interesting consequences, damage can always be avoided.

[SiCK_Boy]

Sometimes a character fails an ability check and wants to try again. In some cases, a character is free to do so; the only real cost is the time it takes. With enough attempts and enough time, a character should eventually succeed at the task. To speed things up, assume that a character spending ten times the normal amount of time needed to complete a task automatically succeed at that task. However, no amount of repeating the check allows a character to turn an impossible task into a successful one.


Would it really apply to a climb check where the consequences include (possibly) falling and taking damage? My understanding was that you could only invoke this rule when the only "consequence" was lost time; typical examples (for me) include lockpicking, breaking down a door or rope, investigation/perception to search for a secret door, etc.

Also, I find it interesting that you seem to "limit" retaking a check for stuff like getting out of a pit. There was a thread a while back where I took a similar position, but the "take 10x the time" option kinda nullify this idea. Or, you let your player try once with a die roll, and then his only option (assuming failure) is to invoke the "take 10x the time"? I've been going back and forth on allowing re-taking a check or not (and when should I simply, as a DM, "impose" the fact that the player took 10x the time).

[This - allowing re-taking a check, and when/how often - is another area where more guidance in the books would be welcome; not that I'm trying to derail this thread.]

Here's another example:

The players come upon a locked door in a dungeon. There is no specific time pressure on the party at that time (no monster in pursuit, no damsel in distress shouting for help), but they are aware that there are wandering monsters (or just creatures inhabiting the dungeon that could come upon them at any time). As such, they still want to make fast progress and not "waste" time. The rogue gets his tools out and says he wants to pick the lock. The DC is 15 and the player has a +8 bonus. He rolls a 4, and fails his check. What would/should the DM then respond:

Option 1: I announce he spent a minute trying to finagle with the lock, to no avail, but he can retry if he wants (wasting 1 minute every time he fails). In the meantime, if he fails a certain amount of time (maybe 5 or 10 times), I'll check for a random encounter.

Option 2: I announce he spent a minute trying to finagle with the lock, and although he felt close to opening it, it did not work in the end. If he's willing to keep going at it for the next 10 minutes (using the "take 10x the time option"), he should succeed. Otherwise, no retry. (And if he does opt for the 10 minutes option, I'll also check for a wandering monster)

Option 3: Maybe I should not even have asked him for a check in the first place and just "decided" that he took the "take 10x the time" option right away?

Option 4: I look at the clock, notice that we are about 30 minutes to the end of our session, and knowing that the monster guarding the treasure in that room will most likely be the last encounter for the evening, I stop wasting everyone's time and just tell him the door opens and they see a large room with a mountain of gold in the farthest half (and I don't bother using their passive perception to see if they notice the guardian hanging on the ceiling above the door - unless someone specifically mentions looking at the ceiling, they'll be surprised and the fight will start as soon as at least 2 characters enter the room).

(Option 4 may seem a bit exaggerated, but is still meant as a serious option)

[PhoenixPhyre]

Would it really apply to a climb check where the consequences include (possibly) falling and taking damage? My understanding was that you could only invoke this rule when the only "consequence" was lost time; typical examples (for me) include lockpicking, breaking down a door or rope, investigation/perception to search for a secret door, etc.

Also, I find it interesting that you seem to "limit" retaking a check for stuff like getting out of a pit. There was a thread a while back where I took a similar position, but the "take 10x the time" option kinda nullify this idea. Or, you let your player try once with a die roll, and then his only option (assuming failure) is to invoke the "take 10x the time"? I've been going back and forth on allowing re-taking a check or not (and when should I simply, as a DM, "impose" the fact that the player took 10x the time).

[This - allowing re-taking a check, and when/how often - is another area where more guidance in the books would be welcome; not that I'm trying to derail this thread.]

Here's another example:

The players come upon a locked door in a dungeon. There is no specific time pressure on the party at that time (no monster in pursuit, no damsel in distress shouting for help), but they are aware that there are wandering monsters (or just creatures inhabiting the dungeon that could come upon them at any time). As such, they still want to make fast progress and not "waste" time. The rogue gets his tools out and says he wants to pick the lock. The DC is 15 and the player has a +8 bonus. He rolls a 4, and fails his check. What would/should the DM then respond:

Option 1: I announce he spent a minute trying to finagle with the lock, to no avail, but he can retry if he wants (wasting 1 minute every time he fails). In the meantime, if he fails a certain amount of time (maybe 5 or 10 times), I'll check for a random encounter.

Option 2: I announce he spent a minute trying to finagle with the lock, and although he felt close to opening it, it did not work in the end. If he's willing to keep going at it for the next 10 minutes (using the "take 10x the time option"), he should succeed. Otherwise, no retry. (And if he does opt for the 10 minutes option, I'll also check for a wandering monster)

Option 3: Maybe I should not even have asked him for a check in the first place and just "decided" that he took the "take 10x the time" option right away?

Option 4: I look at the clock, notice that we are about 30 minutes to the end of our session, and knowing that the monster guarding the treasure in that room will most likely be the last encounter for the evening, I stop wasting everyone's time and just tell him the door opens and they see a large room with a mountain of gold in the farthest half (and I don't bother using their passive perception to see if they notice the guardian hanging on the ceiling above the door - unless someone specifically mentions looking at the ceiling, they'll be surprised and the fight will start as soon as at least 2 characters enter the room).

(Option 4 may seem a bit exaggerated, but is still meant as a serious option)

On mobile, so I'll keep this short (and also to stop the derail). I tend to go as follows: if there's a DC, like a lock, or pit trap, I'll do try once, then ask if they want to take the time and succeed or not.

In this case, I'd actually go with 4 unless there's a reasonable chance of a wandering monster. If so, then the consequence would be an encounter roll. If probably do a passive perception for the guy on the ceiling though. It's not that it's impossible to retry, it's that retrying is boring for everyone. That's a style choice, not a rules one on my part BTW. YMMV.

[Slipperychicken]

Wouldn't that (the stressfulness of the situation) just impose disadvantage rather than change the actual DC? Even most other environmental elements (like rain making it more slippery, for example) could also be made to impose disadvantage rather than change the DC.

I think he means to refer to when there's no point to rolling. That is, when you have all the time in the world to hack through the jungle (and therefore your skill result is unimportant; you will arrive in roughly the same way no matter what), as opposed to when you're racing through said jungle toward a ziggurat where a crazed medicine-man is scheduled to bring about the end of days at high noon (where the speed at which you traverse the jungle is very highly relevant).

[Zalabim]

You've mentioned multiple times that simple damage is boring and thus not worthy of bothering with a DC, but I have to disagree, at least as far as climbing DCs are concerned. For climbing situations, where the length of the climb should not impact the DC itself (assuming the surface/conditions are the same all along) - that would only influence how many checks are required - but where a failure can lead to significant bludgeoning damage in case of a fall, I think it matters to set a DC even in the absence of other temporal constraints. After all, you don't know that the players will just take a long rest and heal right after if they get injured, and they could decide to pursue their adventure right away, meaning the climb was a challenge and they did pay a price (in hp) to get through that challenge.

Even in the absence of stress, a climb could require a check. Now plenty (in fact, most) of climb should not require one (as covered by the climbing speed rules; it's just difficult terrain and, thus, a slower progression), but there could still be cases where, without an external pressure/stress applied, the conditions of the surface makes it necessary to ask for a check.
I hate the 3.5 rule that it takes a check for every 1/4 of your speed of progress. That's a terrible way to handle climbing. "You need to roll 7 DC 10 climb checks, and if you fail any of them by even one point you fall, and take 1d6 damage for each check you had succeeded and have to start over," as an example is just, no. Don't do that ever again. If it's a harder climb, roll once against a harder DC. Do not make them roll for every foot of progress. Do not give them the worst possible consequence for the slightest failure. Even in 3.5, you had to fail the check by 5 or more to fall or risk falling.

The very introduction for ability checks says failure means either: no progress; or progress combined with a setback determined by the GM. Making failure on an ability check mean no progress and a penalty determined by the GM is probably the first mistake GMs make. It causes a very chilly atmosphere about the PCs trying to do anything. If you're going to take something, give them something too.

[SiCK_Boy]

I hate the 3.5 rule that it takes a check for every 1/4 of your speed of progress. That's a terrible way to handle climbing. "You need to roll 7 DC 10 climb checks, and if you fail any of them by even one point you fall, and take 1d6 damage for each check you had succeeded and have to start over," as an example is just, no. Don't do that ever again. If it's a harder climb, roll once against a harder DC. Do not make them roll for every foot of progress. Do not give them the worst possible consequence for the slightest failure. Even in 3.5, you had to fail the check by 5 or more to fall or risk falling.

The very introduction for ability checks says failure means either: no progress; or progress combined with a setback determined by the GM. Making failure on an ability check mean no progress and a penalty determined by the GM is probably the first mistake GMs make. It causes a very chilly atmosphere about the PCs trying to do anything. If you're going to take something, give them something too.

Interesting take to argue for adjusting the DC based on the actual length of the climb. It could certainly be defended; the only complication I think it creates is in making a determination of the actual consequence of failure. Say you use the notion of DC X to climb, rolling X - 5 = no progress and lower than that = falling (with maybe a last shot at a Dexterity saving throw to catch yourself up - another option seen in multiple modules). Then how do you determine the length of the fall if it happens? At least, by pre-determining the number of rolls based on distance, you get a sense of how far the character is when he falls (although even then, it still isn't perfect).

===============

You are right that usually, the "no progress" consequence of a failed check is enough of a penalty without adding further bad consequences on top. For example, on failing a Animal Handling check, I would not rule that the creature immediately attack. The creature's attitude just remains unchanged (unless the player actually described something so bad as to justify a change; but I would never use the die result to put words in his mouth or impose actions/movements he did not describe - same as rolling a 1 on a persuasion check would not be ruled as being insulting, but simply mean the person you are talking to is not receptive). I don't have thieves' tools break in locks on a failure (even when rolling a 1). I think climbing/falling is a specific exception to this general principle because of the nature of the check itself. As mentioned multiple times, if there is no consequence for failure besides time, then don't waste time on a check; as such, if the only consequence for failing a climb check is no progress, then we won't waste time rolling for it (and there are ways available to players to mitigate that risk, such as attaching oneself to other characters or to the climbing surface to set a maximum length of fall).

It is true that some check failures can totally grind an adventure to halt. Usually, that is either a consequence of bad adventure planning on the DM's part (the only way forward is through a door, but the door cannot be opened/broken down) or there is a lesson somewhere in there for the players (hiring a guide before going through that ever-changing difficult/easy-to-navigate jungle). Also, it is still important, from time to time, to have challenges that not all players can overcome, even if just as a matter of letting those who did pick those skills get a chance to shine. It is not as easy in 5e as it was in past editions (because natural ability is more important, in proportion, than the proficiency bonus, at least for the major part of the game), but it still remains an important component of the game (and most skill checks happen during the two non-combat pillars of the game, which, depending on a group's preference, still occupy a large chunk of the table time).

[strangebloke]

The discussion of what consequences are appropriate is somewhat seperate from the discussion of what DCs are appropriate. In general I would say that by far the most common consequence I inflict is either a wasted turn, a closed off solution to a problem, or missed information.

Once again, though, this isn't really relevant to setting the DCs

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

Great work.

FYI: It does not format right in google Chrome. I can't adjust the size of the spread sheet, so items that are longer than the little box are cut off & can't be read.

[Unoriginal]

Great work.

FYI: It does not format right in google Chrome. I can't adjust the size of the spread sheet, so items that are longer than the little box are cut off & can't be read.

click on it, you can then read the content of the box on the top line

[Sindeloke]

And except for abused domestic animals, they are most certainly not friendly. However, a successful animal handling check might reveal that the large dog that looks aggressive is actually afraid, and is trying to make you think he's very scary, so you won't come near him and hurt him.

This particular example is an automatic success for anyone with proficiency, IMO, unless you're in a society that doesn't have dogs at all. That's always why dogs posture, which is something that anyone who (successfully) trains dogs professionally would have to be aware of. If they're not actively attacking you, they're trying to scare you off without a fight - that's true of most carnivores, actually. A fight is a very dangerous thing even if you win, so you start by trying to convince the other animal that it's not worth it.

Herbivores on the other hand... a moose or a rhino will trample you for a song.

And in saying this, it occurs to me that that's a decent guideline for this kind of check. I definitely agree that Animal Handling can encompass the old 3.x "animal empathy" class feature, which was literally Diplomacy for animals. But if you're using Diplomacy as a baseline, I'd push up the DC for getting an animal to do anything specific, and push down the DC for understanding what an animal is thinking or doing. Animals don't consciously understand manipulation or deception, so their behavior is very consistent. Thus, once you're familiar with a species' behavior and body language, you'll almost always have a good idea what they're saying to you, unlike us lying humans. On the other hand, a wild animal feels no social obligation to you the way the average fellow human would, so its interest in what you might want from it is rather diminished.

[Eric Diaz]

Nice work. While I disagreed that this was necessary for 5e, I do agree it can be very useful for lots of people.

Some "pink" choices seem odd... why is it so hard to walk on snow? The thief can occasionally walk on water, is that it? "tumbled off of moving cart" is written twice with different DCs. Etc.

Overall I think it is a great idea.

[Cynthaer]

Nothing to contribute, but as someone who is firmly in the "keep example DCs out of the DMG" camp, I think this is a great idea.

Really, having an unofficial reference is the best of both worlds. The DMG continues to avoid tables, so we don't have the problem of official material setting bad expectations for DMs and players. At the same time, the DMs who feel more comfortable with something to reference still get that.

Everybody wins.