Having a tough run of it fighting demons, looking for advice

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I'll try to do this in character to avoid meta-gaming too much my fellow gamers aren't interesting in this much RP and strategizing.

We'll make the setting the most popular pub for the military and ruffian types to hang out in Langdon, which is the next size down town for Constantanople in this AD800 world. With the help of an evil socerer demons have been spilling through a portal ransacking smaller towns. Langdon is well defended and mercifully as soon as the socerer opened a second portal my party closed the first. We currently don't have the means to close the second but know the third is near Langdon.

Val, a level 5 Lore Bard is frustrated these demons have advantage on seemingly all saving throws and has been stuck in melee combat with them way too often the last couple sessions.

It hasn't been going terrible but they save out of the spells Fear, Bestow Curse, and Phantasmal Force constantly and it turns into long battles of attrition where she can use healing word to stand an ally back up and take a shot at a demon with her magical bow repeatedly then use cutting words to try to avoid damage.

The old standby Thunderwave does some damage but with the demons saving they stay in contact and the attacks of opportunity disengaging are painful.

Does anyone in here know if Demons in general are vulnerable to silver weapons or anything in particular like holy water or? ? ?

Val's a little elf gal, Str 9, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 18 if I recall..(what odd number madness)

If you have advice for spells to snipe with magical secrets or Bard spells to make sure she has, level 6 can't be too far off.

Thanks in advance.

[Unoriginal]

Well, a few important questions, first:

-What kind of demons are you fighting? A physical description is enough if DM didn't give their name.

-Do you have access to magic weapons?

[djreynolds]

You have good stats for I'm guessing around 5th level.

Do you have a cleric, paladin, or wizard in the party placing protection from good and evil on party members?

The DM could be rolling well?

But your spell DC should be around 14

I need to know your spells and who else is in your party.

Please consider magic initiate for eldritch blast, a level of warlock for eldritch blast or at 6th with magical secrets grab that cantrip

But yeah your spell list and who else is in your party?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

What kind of demons? Semi-organized humanoid sized ones. The DM seems to pick different ones based on what mini's he has painted this week. This last time was two flying female demons wearing plate armor with swords and some kind of fancy golden ropes. Chain devels are repeat offenders but we are starting to get the best of those. Gnolls seem to pop up randomly also.

Our party is mostly level 5. Rogue, Wizard, Ranger, Fighter, Cleric and a Bard (me).

The party has a few magic weapons. They help a bit but these are still long slow battles of attrition. I have a magic bow (oath bow) which grants advantage and an extra 3d6 of damage against one target daily.

The Rogue has a similarly powered cursed sword. He can use it all day but he goes crazy mad if he doesn't kill something with it and can't put it away until he does. The cleric has a decent sword as well......

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Val continuing with the story.

Cantrips: Vicious mockery, Dancing lights, message.

1st Level: Charm Person, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Thunderwave

2nd Level: Heat Metal ( these things are largely immune to fire damage! Grr), Phantasmal Force, Silence

3rd Level: Bestow Curse, Fear.

Thanks the the tip on protection from evil btw.

[Unoriginal]

What kind of demons? Semi-organized humanoid sized ones. The DM seems to pick different ones based on what mini's he has painted this week. This last time was two flying female demons wearing plate armor with swords and some kind of fancy golden ropes. Chain devels are repeat offenders but we are starting to get the best of those. Gnolls seem to pop up randomly also.

... the flying women and the Chain devils seems to be devils, not demons. Gnolls are related to demons, but shouldn't have demonic resistance or the like.


Our party is mostly level 5. Rogue, Wizard, Ranger, Fighter, Cleric and a Bard (me).

The party has a few magic weapons. They help a bit but these are still long slow battles of attrition. I have a magic bow (oath bow) which grants advantage and an extra 3d6 of damage against one target daily.

The Rogue has a similarly powered cursed sword. He can use it all day but he goes crazy mad if he doesn't kill something with it and can't put it away until he does. The cleric has a decent sword as well......

Mmmh, could be that your DM is either using way above your level encounters, or has modified their HPs, but normally the magic weapons would bypass the demons/devil resistance.

Could you please describe your last combat a bit, to give us an idea how your DM runs thing?

[Potato_Priest]

The best way to kill demons is to use magic weapons. Try to buff the martials in your party and then sit back and plink with your bow. You don't seem to have any buff spells currently, so I might suggest taking haste using your magical secrets next level to allow whoever's got the best magic weapon to get in some more hits.

Demons are very frequently a frustrating enemy for a spellcaster, due to their thrice cursed magic resistance and frequent elemental damage resistances. The only good way to avoid this is using spells that require attack rolls (or don't allow a saving throw).

[MarkVIIIMarc]

... the flying women and the Chain devils seems to be devils, not demons. Gnolls are related to demons, but shouldn't have demonic resistance or the like.



Mmmh, could be that your DM is either using way above your level encounters, or has modified their HPs, but normally the magic weapons would bypass the demons/devil resistance.

Could you please describe your last combat a bit, to give us an idea how your DM runs thing?

Let's see if I can do it justice...

We were doing a dungeon crawl sorts and had anti-climatically snuck into a room set up as an office of all things.

While debating if we should press on or go back a few feet and down the leg of a "Y" we skipped the DM told us we heard some the beating of wings. It was getting louder so we knew something was approaching.

At this point we largely took up positions in the room in ambush with one just outside. Our Wizard decided to entertainingly use Disguise Self to make him look like one of the bad guys we expected to be in charge.

Sure enough this bad guy and two of them flying armored female whatevers walk into the room and begin attacking us after his bluff failed entertainingly.

One of the flying bad guys pinned my Bard in the Corner and I couldn't Thunderwave myself out of melee for anything.

The other took turns ensnaring our wizard with the rope and knocking out party members.

Our crazy half orc ranger went after the fellow who was in charge. Mercifully that bad guy was more of a book keeper than anything.

It was really just another grueling encounter where we outlasted the bad guys. The Cleric cast a Mass Healing Word which was quite nice. I think the best turn of events was when I (the bard) used regular Healing Word to stand party members back up, and then the low HP having party members would get attacked again wasting the enemy's damage.

What pertinent details am I leaving out?

[sithlordnergal]

Hmmm, your Bard seems pretty solid. Unfortunately, Bards tend to lack spells that deal decent single target damage, so you sort of just stumbled onto the Bard's greatest weakness. I ran into a similar situation where my entire party was down except for me and the Rogue while fighting some Icespire Ogres. The Rogue was able to tank with the dodge action, but we lacked damage output since I had to stay away from the Ogre because I could not take a hit from it as a Lore Bard, which meant the Rogue didn't have Sneak Attack. Honestly, there wasn't much you could do in that situation since you were pinned against the wall and your DM was making their save.

Luckily, there are a few options to help in the future encounters. First, I would replace one of your spells with Dissonant Whispers. It's really one of the best single target damage spells a Bard has. It deals psychic damage which is rarely resisted, and, to top it off, it forces the target to use their reaction to run from you if they fail a wisdom save. Yet it isn't counted as forced movement, so you, and anyone else in range, get free attacks of opportunity on said target.

Also, try to grab Tasha's Hideous Laughter. It isn't considered a Charm, so it's effective against anything that is resistant or immune to charm spells, and it works on anything with an Int. of 4 or above. I have ended entire encounters with a single casting of Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Seriously, Roper has me? Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Intelligent Undead? Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Dragon? Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Big Bad Immune to almost every Condition? Tasha's Hideous Laughter. It isn't a charm, so they aren't immune.

Next, take a single level of Sorcerer. You wouldn't believe how much a single level of Sorcerer can help out a Bard. You gain 4 cantrips, 2 spells, and a Sorcerer Subclass. That may not seem like much on the surface, but those three things basically gets rid of the Bard's weaknesses. You can gain multiple single target damage spells that don't require a saving throw to use, which means if the DM is rolling high on their saves you don't have to worry about it. Personally, I'd go Fire Bolt, Chill Touch, Booming Blade, and Minor Illusion for the Cantrips, and snag Shield and either Magic Missile or Chromatic Orb for your two Sorcerer spells. If you aren't allowed to use Sword Coast Adventue for Booming Blade, then take Shocking Grasp instead. It's still a Melee cantrip that deals decent damage.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Sorcerer is interesting. I had thought about a level or two of Warlock for EB. Heck? Even Rouge for mad skills and a sneak attack die.

[Potato_Priest]

Sorcerer is interesting. I had thought about a level or two of Warlock for EB. Heck? Even Rouge for mad skills and a sneak attack die.

A Warlock dip would help a lot. Force damage ranks below only radiant on the killing-fiends-o'meter, and in most cases it's just as good. The only thing of equivalent anti-demon punching power that a sorcerer dip could give you is magic missile, but the warlock dip could give you protection from evil and good as well, which would help your tanks out a ton.

It's just like they say. The best way to kill demons is to make a pact with one.

[sithlordnergal]

Warlock is okay...but there are three major downsides with it:

1) Eldritch Blast is a decent cantrip, but unless you get invocations you're kind of stuck with the equivalent to a Force based Firebolt. Which don't get me wrong, the Force damage type is great, but it is still doing d10s. I'd say just go with the Fire Bolt/Chill Touch combo. I haven't run into anything immune to fire and necrotic at the same time yet.

2) You only get 1-2 spell slots depending on how far you go into Warlock until you're a level 11 warlock. And honestly, as long as you don't take too many levels of warlock, you'll be able to stay mostly on par with the number of spell slots a Sorcerer/Bard would get. But then you'd be stuck with your warlock having spell slots that are only levels 1-2. If you went higher to get 3rd level slots, you'd actually start having fewer total spell slots per day unless your party began short resting more then twice per day. Not to mention a Short Rest doesn't help if you end up burning through those two Warlock Spell Slots. However, increasing your warlock levels runs into my biggest issue:

4) My biggest issue is that your spell slots don't increase with the multiclass. Since Warlock spells are special, you'll be stuck with the slots of whatever level full caster you were when you picked up warlock, mixed with 2 slots at whatever level you stopped taking Warlock.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Warlock is okay...but there are three major downsides with it:

1) Eldritch Blast is a decent cantrip, but unless you get invocations you're kind of stuck with the equivalent to a Force based Firebolt. Which don't get me wrong, the Force damage type is great, but it is still doing d10s. I'd say just go with the Fire Bolt/Chill Touch combo. I haven't run into anything immune to fire and necrotic at the same time yet.

2) You only get 1-2 spell slots depending on how far you go into Warlock until you're a level 11 warlock. And honestly, as long as you don't take too many levels of warlock, you'll be able to stay mostly on par with the number of spell slots a Sorcerer/Bard would get. But then you'd be stuck with your warlock having spell slots that are only levels 1-2. If you went higher to get 3rd level slots, you'd actually start having fewer total spell slots per day unless your party began short resting more then twice per day. Not to mention a Short Rest doesn't help if you end up burning through those two Warlock Spell Slots. However, increasing your warlock levels runs into my biggest issue:

4) My biggest issue is that your spell slots don't increase with the multiclass. Since Warlock spells are special, you'll be stuck with the slots of whatever level full caster you were when you picked up warlock, mixed with 2 slots at whatever level you stopped taking Warlock.


I mostly agree, but 1-2 level dip is all OP needs. Maybe 3 if he wants Tome for cantrips or wants a familar (no real need to go blade pact). I don't see anything wrong with OP taking 3 up to 4 levels of warlock except for the bard progression delay. IT be easier to just get EB with magical secrets, maybe spiritual weapon, phantasmal force, shatter? These are all decent spells (phantasmal force is kinda dependent on how well you can desrcibe something so mileage may vary).
I personally like Vampiric Touch but Chill Touch will get you enough necrotic damage too.

Ill echo the dissonant whispers spell choice. One of Bard's best spells (that isnt stolen). Heat metal is usually awesome as well but you're up against some firemobs so thats a sad face.

[djreynolds]

Val continuing with the story.

Cantrips: Vicious mockery, Dancing lights, message.

1st Level: Charm Person, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Thunderwave

2nd Level: Heat Metal ( these things are largely immune to fire damage! Grr), Phantasmal Force, Silence

3rd Level: Bestow Curse, Fear.

Thanks the the tip on protection from evil btw.

Okay you got faerie fire, which is great. Advantage is awesome. Have the cleric spam bless and try to get some terrain advantage. Take one demon at a time

If the fighter needs it, have the cleric place protection from evil on the fighter and use him/her to keep the demon in place and then throw faerie on that region.

Warding bond is good. The cleric can cast this on the fighter and hang towards the back. Basically they share the damage.

And I hate to say this, but sometimes you have to sling the bow and pull out the rapier and buddy up next to the fighter.

Both the wizard and cleric have protection from evil, so cast this on the tanks. And tell the cleric to spam sacred flame

[Aaron Underhand]

As a bard who was the only arcane caster in the party, and for RP reason, I dropped a level of Wizard onto my Bard.

Even with the lower attack and DC of Int based spells (Int 14) I can attest to the combination mentioned above: Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, Shield and Magic Missile - All have got regular usage and excellent utility. I took Acid Splash instead of Firebolt, and that's been fun as well, though on balance Firebolt would probably have been more damage. Just hoping to find a headband of intellect sometime....

Lore Bard weaknesses as I see it are: Limited at will Damage, Limited spell selection, Low AC, Lack of Wis and Con save proficiency

1 Level of Wizard, or Sorcerer helps immensely - Wizard also gives you free 1st level ritual casting, and flexibility to tailor first level spell load for encounters, Sorcerer gives you free Mage Armour, and uses your main casting stat.

You need 2 levels of Warlock for the best At will damage in the game, but you pay for that with loss of higher level spell slots, and one extra level of Bard feature delay. Still with agonising blast and devil's sight you've got a lot for fighting devils and demons.

1 level of Cleric is another option - giving you a boost in AC, and sacred flame as the attack cantrip - like wizard lots of flexibility to tailor spells, but also using a secondary stat

[Chugger]

At lvl 6, iirc, your world changes a lot as you get to steal some major spells from other classes. What you steal will impact this a lot.

[8wGremlin]

Get to level 6 as a lore bard first:

this nets you some important changes, first - you get Magic Secrets:
You can pick 2 spells from any list at the level you can cast at, which will be 3rd.

I suggest that you take the following:

Either
Crusader's Mantle - all friendlies within 30' of you, including you, now do an extra 1d4 radiant damage on every hit.
(it's not much but it racks up on all their attacks)
or
Aura of Vitality - bonus action healing for 2d6 per person, every round.

After 6th level
If you were to MC any of the following are good, Sorcerer, Warlock, Cleric (arcana & life are good choices) or fighter, and pick up Archery as your fighting style, and then shoot...


I take it the cleric has Bless up, and spirit guardians up on tough fights, if not suggest that they do.
Also get them to cast AID spell, and upcast that in the morning, it's very good.

hope it helps

[ShikomeKidoMi]

I hope to hell your DM is nerfing them, because Erinyes (armored rope wielding winged female devils) are CR 12 each. So... That might be why the fight was difficult right there. They have good saving throws and Magic Resistance, which means low level casters are going to have a very tough time with them. Don't get me wrong, I always throw monsters that are several CR higher than my players at them, too, but more than double CR seems a bit high. Still, we don't know that your DM was playing them with stats as written so it might not be as bad as it sounds. Alternately, are you sure you were supposed to win that fight? Maybe you were supposed to be knocked out and captured and you've just thrown your DM's entire plans out of whack by being too powerful and lucky.

For similar fights, as some have mentioned diversifying into buff spells will help you contribute against magic resistant foes. I'd also recommend considering Heat Metal. It doesn't offer a save. It's a little situational since it requires the opponent to have metal weapons or armor, but all the creatures you've listed did, so that's not rare. Now it's fire damage, so devils will be immune, but demons and gnolls won't be.

[Azgeroth]

if your ranger doesnt have it, or your wizard, get a scroll of FOG CLOUD! scribe it to the wizards book.

faerie fire + fog cloud... mmmmmm

advantage for you, disadvantage for them.. yummy...

next option, is it advantage against spells, or spell affects?

thats important, you might not able to slow them, but things like web, erupting earth, snowball storm, will all still affect them..

[Aett_Thorn]

Getting to level 6 and snagging Conjure Animals might be another good option. More damage for your team, plus some meat shields for you, will probably help you out a lot.

But overall, I agree with the majority sense here that the DM seems to be throwing some pretty nasty creatures at you guys for a level 5 party. He might be toning down their HP and stats, but having enemies with magic resistance as opponents at level 5 is just asking for trouble. But if this is going to be the case for you, you should be switching from debuffs (like Faerie Fire) to buffs for your party. If the enemy is likely going to pass their saving throw, debuffs will do very little for you and your party. But buffs on your party can't be saved against, and so might give you more bang for your buck.