Kung-Fu Panda (yes, another druid/monk thread)

[Malacandra]

Hiya,

Another campaign looms (or so I hope) and I'm pondering the creation of a Druid/Monk multiclass, probably just to get some defensive bennies for my Wild Shapes but also considering the "Way of the Angry Bear" approach. I have a small question which probably comes down to "specific trumps general" really, but I'll open it to the floor:


RAW, natural weapons can't be used in addition to, nor as part of, a flurry of blows - so says the Monk entry
RAW, Feral Combat Training allows the selected natural weapon to be used in a flurry, if you are a monk.



On the one hand, friends don't make friends DM a character who's potentially Flurrying a 12d6 natural attack (Behemoth Hippo/Strong Jaw; or even Arsinoitherium/Strong Jaw if you FCT the Gore, and this comes online earlier), but on the other hand, in a spirit of purely scientific curiosity... does the Feral Combat Training specific trump the Monk general? Or is this just an errata waiting to happen? :smallsmile:

[DeTess]

Looking through the relevant classes and feats, I'd say you could flurry with a beast natural attack, provided that your DM allows you to pick a beast form natural weapon for the feral combat training feat, which isn't a given. Note that feral combat training only applies its bonus to "one of your natural weapons" that has to be picked when you take the feat. It is up to your DM to determine whether the natural weapons of a druid wild-form can really be considered yours.

[Malacandra]

That seems fair. Mind you, it's trivial to get hold of a bite natural attack (Toothy half-orc). :smallcool: Even so, the DM could perfectly well rule that "your" bite and the Wild bite aren't the same - and the idea does have a slight whiff of cheese about it.

[Eldariel]

Eh, it's not really broken. You could just use Vital Strike for one big hit when using natural weapons instead, and in the end it's still just damage. Not that big of a deal; a cool combo that gives up spellcasting if you go for it (so weaker character but a cool shtick as a shapechanging martial artist). Don't worry about it; would be fine for DM to allow.

[Geddy2112]

Having your wis to AC before you can afford wild armor is a pretty nice boon.

As far as feral combat training, it specifically allows you to use things like claws etc to flurry. That should be allowed, as you reliably have access to the wild shape. Much like how druids and wizards can put ranks in fly as they have the reliable ability to gain flight through spells or wild shape. Would you not allow a draconic blood sorcerer to weapon focus their claws?

A bite is a bite, and not the least bit cheesy. Although you probably want to flurry claws as they get more attacks.

[Psyren]

On the one hand, friends don't make friends DM a character who's potentially Flurrying a 12d6 natural attack (Behemoth Hippo/Strong Jaw; or even Arsinoitherium/Strong Jaw if you FCT the Gore, and this comes online earlier), but on the other hand, in a spirit of purely scientific curiosity... does the Feral Combat Training specific trump the Monk general? Or is this just an errata waiting to happen? :smallsmile:

1) That's the entire point of Feral Combat Training, yes :smalltongue:

2) Monks are no strangers to big damage dice anyway, given that they end up with a 2d10 weapon before buffs.

3) Most of your damage actually comes from modifiers (like Strength and Power Attack) not from the size of the dice you roll.

[Malacandra]

Having your wis to AC before you can afford wild armor is a pretty nice boon.

As far as feral combat training, it specifically allows you to use things like claws etc to flurry. That should be allowed, as you reliably have access to the wild shape. Much like how druids and wizards can put ranks in fly as they have the reliable ability to gain flight through spells or wild shape. Would you not allow a draconic blood sorcerer to weapon focus their claws?

A bite is a bite, and not the least bit cheesy. Although you probably want to flurry claws as they get more attacks.

Well, no - canonically, all attacks in a flurry can be with the same hand, foot, whatever... natural weapon in this case, so why not flurry the biggest attack? Behemoth Hippo w/Strong Jaw is handing out 12d6 per munch, and with only 4 levels in Monk, 4 in Druid and Shaping Focus that's potentially 48d6 per round (flurry, ki attack, haste). Slightly less broken is a Strong Jaw'ed Dire Hyena - less damage but a free trip attempt on every hit.

The point about strength and Power Attack is well made, still, 12d6 is a lot more than 2d10.

Bolded part: Yes, that makes perfect sense - a druid could spend an entire training day in Wild Shape, which is more than you'd normally get when you were putting skill ranks in Fly.

WIS to AC is a huge benefit and if I had to choose I'd probably pump WIS before I ever got around to wild armour - let alone wild armour that could match the WIS-to-AC I'd be getting by then.

[the_archduke]

Worship Deity with Bite as favored weapon

Aquatic Domain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo-druid-archetypes/animal-and-terrain-domains/aquatic-domain/) Druid to gain channel energy

Take Channel Smite (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/channel-smite-combat/)

Take Guided Hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/guided-hand/)

Use your WIS to hit with your hippo bite

[Malacandra]

Worship Deity with Bite as favored weapon

Aquatic Domain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo-druid-archetypes/animal-and-terrain-domains/aquatic-domain/) Druid to gain channel energy

Take Channel Smite (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/channel-smite-combat/)

Take Guided Hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/guided-hand/)

Use your WIS to hit with your hippo bite

LOL! On a scale of one to Stinking Bishop that's a well-aged Cheddar at least. Nicely done. :smallsmile:

A valid objection would be that the Aquatic Channel Energy doesn't harm anyone ever and so shouldn't feed into Channel Smite.

[Psyren]

The point about strength and Power Attack is well made, still, 12d6 is a lot more than 2d10.

If you reread, I said before buffs though. All that stuff you're talking about like Strong Jaw and size increases, a monk can use all that too; he's starting from a higher base than most bite attacks. So no, not broken at all.

The druid of course can apply these buffs himself, but nobody here is arguing that druids aren't more powerful than monks to begin with, just that the specific thing you're focusing on is not that big a deal.

[the_archduke]

A valid objection would be that the Aquatic Channel Energy doesn't harm anyone ever and so shouldn't feed into Channel Smite.

I disagree. All channel smite requires is the channel energy ability. You have that. The aquatic domain specifies "You can take other feats to add to this ability, such as Extra Channel and Improved Channel, but not feats that alter this ability, such as Elemental Channel and Alignment Channel."

Channel smite adds to the ability, it gives you the opportunity to add as a rider to an attack. It does not change how the channel works. Now, channel smite does one of two things, depending on whether you channel positive or negative energy.

"Before you make a melee attack roll, you can choose to spend one use of your channel energy ability as a swift action. If you channel positive energy and you hit an undead creature, that creature takes an amount of additional damage equal to the damage dealt by your channel positive energy ability. If you channel negative energy and you hit a living creature, that creature takes an amount of additional damage equal to the damage dealt by your channel negative energy ability. Your target can make a Will save, as normal, to halve this additional damage. If your attack misses, the channel energy ability is still expended with no effect."

You do neither, so if you actually ever use the feat, it will do nothing. But you don't care because you only took the feat as a prereq for guided hand.

[Malacandra]

If you reread, I said before buffs though. All that stuff you're talking about like Strong Jaw and size increases, a monk can use all that too; he's starting from a higher base than most bite attacks. So no, not broken at all.

The druid of course can apply these buffs himself, but nobody here is arguing that druids aren't more powerful than monks to begin with, just that the specific thing you're focusing on is not that big a deal.

Hmm... yes, looks like a monk (and he'd not need to be higher than 15th level with a monk's robe), starting from 2d10, would go to 4d8 with a simple enlarge person, and then strong jaw up to the same 12d6, and have the full flurry and more besides. Need to make a note of this for our Shattered Star campaign, where my sons are respectively a druid and a monk and I'm a sorcerer. :smallcool: