Wow of poverty without any of the exhalted/sacred stuff

[King of Nowhere]

I am playing a monk with some deep-seated pshycological issues.

After his family was enslaved by a wizard when he was a kid, the character observed that the wizard, eschewing weapon and armor, had become stronger than a warrior. He therefore concluded that by giving up on weapon, armor and spells he would become even more powerful, and went on to train as a monk. One of his favourite sentences is "keep your [whatever], I don't need it". He believes that deprivations and hardship build character and "forge the body and the soul"; Hence he sleeps on rough stones, he wears underpants made of sandpaper, and one day per week he eats only moss and lichens, among other unlikely ascetic practices. He is conceived as a comedy relief, though I'd like to also keep him effective - as much as a monk can be effective.

Now, a wow of poverty (from the book of exhalted deeds) would be perfectly in line with the character, and I looked into it. Most of it would be perfect. The fluff, however, was totally off. The wow of povery was clearly intended for some heroic character going off to fight evil while gifting everything to the poor, and it had all those sacred feats with bonuses against evil and every second word in the description was holy or exhalted or pious or that kind of stuff. Absolutely inappropriate for a LN character who engages in mildly masochistic acts under the misguided belief that they will make him stronger and whose main motivation to fight is basically insecurity, in that if he does not becomes stronger, maybe some wizard will come and take him too.

So, i wonder if there was something like a wow of poverty but without all the "exalted" fluff attached to it. Thanks.

[Darrin]

So, i wonder if there was something like a wow of poverty but without all the "exalted" fluff attached to it. Thanks.

Just roleplay it. The benefits to Vow of Poverty aren't worth the headaches it causes. If your PC has taken a particular oath or vow to behave a certain way, then just roleplay how he navigates adhering to his vow and making decisions when it comes into conflict with how the game progresses. You're much more likely to come up with exceptions and work-arounds that fit the character and fit the rest of the campaign that way.

[Faily]

I'd check with your GM if they'd be ok with refluffing the Vow of Poverty to work differently. (I know I wouldn't be, but hey, I'm not your GM and as long as your group is having fun, that's alright with me. :smallsmile: )

If the answer is no, the Fist Of The Forest prestige class' fluff seems to be in spirit with your concept. It's not as ascetic as a Vow of Poverty-person, but it's very much in the area of "eschewing luxury, civilization, and other things that make you soft, so you can harden yourself into a badass".

[Deophaun]

I think a simple feat where, if you have no possessions, everyone who walks past you is compelled to say "Wow, he's poor," is fine. :smallwink:

[zlefin]

it's "Vow" not "Wow" you keep using a 'w' at the start of the word rather than the proper 'v'
that said; I don't know of any similar RAW feat that does what you want. pathfinder has some systems for automatic bonus progression;
mostly though the best plan is to just ask your DM to let you refluff vow of poverty to fi tbetter with the character concept; it won't be overpowered at all, so they should be fine with it.

[King of Nowhere]

Ok, thanks for the answers. I'll have to figure it out with the DM. Unfortunately there is already another guy with the vow of poverty in the party (this one a genuinely heroic and pious guy), and it's just not the same thing if half the party is being poor.


I think a simple feat where, if you have no possessions, everyone who walks past you is compelled to say "Wow, he's poor," is fine. :smallwink:
lol! I'd take that feat immediately!

[Menzath]

I'd check with your GM if they'd be ok with refluffing the Vow of Poverty to work differently. (I know I wouldn't be, but hey, I'm not your GM and as long as your group is having fun, that's alright with me. :smallsmile: )...

That's exactly what a DM let me do for a very nature oriented neutral druid I had. Very laws of the wild/Darwin's theory type but he let it fly.

[Thurbane]

I don't think VoP would be particularly over powered if you removed the Exalted stuff altogether: swap out bonus Exalted feats for bonus General feats, and change all the Exalted/Perfection/Sacred bonuses to Luck (or Insight) bonuses.

[Seto]

Right. I was always bothered by the fluff of the Sacred Vow line. There's no reason Neutral or Evil characters couldn't swear a vow of Chastity, Silence or Poverty if they saw benefit in it. If anything, making it non-Chaotic only could make sense, but even that is superfluous in my view.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I don't think VoP would be particularly over powered if you removed the Exalted stuff altogether: swap out bonus Exalted feats for bonus General feats, and change all the Exalted/Perfection/Sacred bonuses to Luck (or Insight) bonuses.

A ton of bonus general feats would be a massive upgrade (possibly justified TBH). The only problem with switching the bonuses around is exalted is a weird bonus type: it is a very slightly better armor bonus. I could honestly see perfection staying depending on the new fluff.


Right. I was always bothered by the fluff of the Sacred Vow line. There's no reason Neutral or Evil characters couldn't swear a vow of Chastity, Silence or Poverty if they saw benefit in it. If anything, making it non-Chaotic only could make sense, but even that is superfluous in my view.

Two reasons I see for the good only restrictions: firstly a lot of real world religious orders include restrictions of particularly devoted adherents behaviors and it is possible they drew on this for inspiration; secondly in DND good as an alignment is restrictive while evil is not; a good character who uses evil means for good ends is in trouble but an evil character who uses good means to evil ends will still sit comfortably in evil.

Building off the second point: evil gaining power by refusing to do neutral seems just odd (IIRC none of the vows specifically forbid an evil act except for the drug use one that also covers the extremely common for the era and locale alcohol).

[Seto]

Two reasons I see for the good only restrictions: firstly a lot of real world religious orders include restrictions of particularly devoted adherents behaviors and it is possible they drew on this for inspiration; I agree with you there.


secondly in DND good as an alignment is restrictive while evil is not; a good character who uses evil means for good ends is in trouble but an evil character who uses good means to evil ends will still sit comfortably in evil.

Building off the second point: evil gaining power by refusing to do neutral seems just odd (IIRC none of the vows specifically forbid an evil act except for the drug use one that also covers the extremely common for the era and locale alcohol).
I see what you mean. But as you say, those acts being sworn off are not Evil, so it's not like "good ends cannot be reached by evil means" is part of the equation. As for evil gaining power by refusing to do neutral... As I see it, there are two reasons for swearing off alcohol, sex, drugs, speaking, etc. The first possible reason is sacrifice: you glorify a divine being by mortifying yourself, and you show your commitment by giving up something. What's being given up doesn't matter that much: the act of sacrifice itself is where it's at. It lets you focus on your essential (what you serve) and connect to it on a deeper spiritual level. It has a ritual, primal logic: you give up something to gain something else. That's religious asceticism, an inspiration in D&D, as you stress in your first point. But it only requires you to be religious, not Good; and whereas real-world religion often ostensibly pursues good ends, in D&D there are Evil cults that require just as much devotion and commitment as Pelor's church. While it makes more sense for Good to expect self-mortification than for Evil, I wouldn't exclude it on principle.
The second reason is self-control and self-betterment: alcohol, drugs, sex, even the spoken word, are worldly tethers and prioritize your body over your mind. If you want to be truly free, an enlightened being, you must shake off their influence. That's philosophical asceticism, and essentially Neutral (though likely Lawful, as is the whole concept of a vow). You can have spiritual villains who follow ascetic discipline, like Zaheer in Legend of Korra. Sure, in that scenario you're not given the Vows' mechanical benefits by the divine forces of the universe, but since this being D&D, I figure you can just get them through sheer force of will.

[PacMan2247]

I agree with you there.


I see what you mean. But as you say, those acts being sworn off are not Evil, so it's not like "good ends cannot be reached by evil means" is part of the equation. As for evil gaining power by refusing to do neutral... As I see it, there are two reasons for swearing off alcohol, sex, drugs, speaking, etc. The first possible reason is sacrifice: you glorify a divine being by mortifying yourself, and you show your commitment by giving up something. What's being given up doesn't matter that much: the act of sacrifice itself is where it's at. It lets you focus on your essential (what you serve) and connect to it on a deeper spiritual level. It has a ritual, primal logic: you give up something to gain something else. That's religious asceticism, an inspiration in D&D, as you stress in your first point. But it only requires you to be religious, not Good; and whereas real-world religion often ostensibly pursues good ends, in D&D there are Evil cults that require just as much devotion and commitment as Pelor's church. While it makes more sense for Good to expect self-mortification than for Evil, I wouldn't exclude it on principle.
The second reason is self-control and self-betterment: alcohol, drugs, sex, even the spoken word, are worldly tethers and prioritize your body over your mind. If you want to be truly free, an enlightened being, you must shake off their influence. That's philosophical asceticism, and essentially Neutral (though likely Lawful, as is the whole concept of a vow). You can have spiritual villains who follow ascetic discipline, like Zaheer in Legend of Korra. Sure, in that scenario you're not given the Vows' mechanical benefits by the divine forces of the universe, but since this being D&D, I figure you can just get them through sheer force of will.

I'd give you XP just for the Legend of Korra reference.

As said here, asceticism isn't just for good. A lot of the Vows involve forsaking both material power and pleasure. An evil (or neutral) deity could reward that behavior just as easily as a good one can, and the rewards can easily be offered without divine involvement; self-denial is a constant exercise in willpower, which is the benefit of several of the Vows. Moving beyond that, the entire psionics system sets precedent for deriving real in-game power from within the force of your own mentality- it would be easy to re-fluff the Vow of Poverty as something more along those lines. The Vows of Peace and Nonviolence might be harder to work in with other alignments, but most of them fit without much stretching. If handled using divine intercession as the mechanic, an evil character's benefits from such Vows could be fluffed as the manifestation of jealousy and/or anger at other characters' access to things being blocked by a deity. Sky's the limit here.