How to deal with defensive enemies

[Mundus33]

First off I'm playing 5e just fyi. So this is a question I've had for a long time especially since I've never been good at strategy (nor have my companions) on how to deal with defensively dug in enemies especially ones with readied actions.

For example many times I've tried to lure out even very aggressive enemies such as trolls, goblins, and orcs into a bottleneck but every dm I've had has basically said that they set up a defense and wait inside for us. Which I think is bs especially for trolls.

Now there is the obvious strategy of sieging them in but I could see the dm saying that they have another exit to get food and such. I thought of smoking them out but apparently they have good ventilation throughout the cave which would serve the idea of multiple exits.

So in situations like this what are some strategies that one could employ with and without magic that would work better than walking straight into the enemies defensive tactic. Keeping in mind very impatient companions that would rather run into said defensive blockade then complain about how they either barely survived or spent 90% of the fight with their face in the dirt.

on a side note our dm ruled that you can't take the dodge action before you enter the room you have to go in and hope you get the higher initiative and even then they technically get a surprise round because of a round of readied actions.

[CharonsHelper]

1. What system? 3.x?

2. Your GM is being dumb. He wants to hose you and any solution you come up with sounds like it will just be hand-waived away.

Though - if Pathfinder - you could go through the wall with the Kool-Aid Man approach.

OH YEAH! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/stunning-irruption-combat)

[Mundus33]

1. What system? 3.x?

2. Your GM is being dumb. He wants to hose you and any solution you come up with sounds like it will just be hand-waived away.

Though - if Pathfinder - you could go through the wall with the Kool-Aid Man approach.

OH YEAH! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/stunning-irruption-combat)

Sorry forgot to add 5e will add to main post.

[Knaight]

Sources of mobile cover can help here, as can methods of breaking doors and the like from long distances. That good ventilation is also an access point, inasmuch as you can pour things like flammable oils down it, preferably followed by alchemists fire.

[Tinkerer]

First off I'm playing 5e just fyi. So this is a question I've had for a long time especially since I've never been good at strategy (nor have my companions) on how to deal with defensively dug in enemies especially ones with readied actions.

For example many times I've tried to lure out even very aggressive enemies such as trolls, goblins, and orcs into a bottleneck but every dm I've had has basically said that they set up a defense and wait inside for us. Which I think is bs especially for trolls.

Now there is the obvious strategy of sieging them in but I could see the dm saying that they have another exit to get food and such. I thought of smoking them out but apparently they have good ventilation throughout the cave which would serve the idea of multiple exits.

So in situations like this what are some strategies that one could employ with and without magic that would work better than walking straight into the enemies defensive tactic. Keeping in mind very impatient companions that would rather run into said defensive blockade then complain about how they either barely survived or spent 90% of the fight with their face in the dirt.

on a side note our dm ruled that you can't take the dodge action before you enter the room you have to go in and hope you get the higher initiative and even then they technically get a surprise round because of a round of readied actions.

Burning fluid (something cheaper than alchemists fire). Gallons and gallons of it. OR collapse the entrance and track down where the other exits are. OR... wait I just realized if they are doing that level of GM blocking then illusions most likely won't work. If they worked though they'd be great for sending in to make them lose their prepared actions then you guys can run in for the counter.

Also your GM is full of it on dodge there. Rounds don't just apply to combat, they are being used all of the time. You don't need to be in combat to start dodging. I don't know maybe throw some vegetables at the person you are going to send in first so you can technically start combat, roll init, and then enter the room.

After doing some 5th edition research though trolls and orcs have equal intelligence there (which is weird). And I must say I wouldn't have let that action work on the goblins either. Goblins are a cowardly and superstitious lot after all.

[Slipperychicken]

-Have you considered employing cover of your own? Maybe hold up a door in front of you so it counts as improved cover, or otherwise create a mobile barrier.
-You could also use a cheap animal as a decoy to soak up their overwatch-shots right before the party enters.
-Use burning materials (sulfur, hay, grass, quicklime, debris) to create smoke and reduce visibility
-Create another entrance, in as spectacular a fashion as you are able
-Use lit oil flasks to deny terrain and degrade cover
-Use entrances as cover as you take shots into the area, especially when it's melee-only enemies that have dug in
-Start playing a healer cleric so you can keep your friends healthy after each pyrrhic foray into entrenched foes



on a side note our dm ruled that you can't take the dodge action before you enter the room you have to go in and hope you get the higher initiative and even then they technically get a surprise round because of a round of readied actions.

So the baddies get to ready and take actions outside the initiative order, but the PCs can't do the same? In my opinion nobody should be permitted to have combat actions like readying before initiative is rolled, but if you're going to allow it for one side you might as well do one for both.

[KillianHawkeye]

Your DM doesn't understand how initiative and surprise work. At all.

[Cealocanth]

You have a few options:

1. ) Split your forces (or summon an elemental or something), work your way around the dungeon (digging through walls if necessarry) and attack them from an angle they are not defending against. That exit route? Go block that thing off. Attack from multiple angles at once, or just starve them out like you mentioned. This isn't a defensive fort designed for siege here, this is a troll's living room. The most anyone would expect would be 2 exits/entrances and 1 ventillation shaft.

2.) Alternatively, use illusion magic or sleight of hand to make the enemy think they're being attacked from behind. Wait for them to alter their defenses (significantly weakening those they have in place), then attack.

3.) Use a sapper. Send your rogue in to plant explosives or alchemist fire on the defenses, or tape lit gunpowder barrels to rats and send them in running, and wait for the chaos to occur. When their lines are broken or panicked, attack with the element of surprise.

4.) Blitzkrieg. Have your ranged attackers (preferably mages) pepper them with fireballs, arrows, magic missiles, maltov cocktails, etc. Then bring in the heavy machinery (your warrior, paladin, and barbarian), and steamroll them.

[ahyangyi]

Do you have a reason to kill them quickly? If you are high level enough you can cast a permanent silent image of a few adventurers outside their cave and leave.

Troll the trolls.

The DM needs really good reason why his trolls go out of their cave this time.

[Vitruviansquid]

You are making a basic misunderstanding.

The GM is not trying to get you to find the perfect way to attack your GM is worshipping at the altar of "a dug in defense is the greatest strategy." Or, in other words, you cannot formulate an effective strategy against this because the GM himself cannot conceive of any strategy as effective.

[LimSindull]

I'm not familiar with 5th e, but this doesn't sound like a systems problem (save the dodge thing).

The main thing here is to talk to your GM. It may be that he wants every fight to be almost a TPK. He may believe that having weaker opponents using cover is better than giant random monsters that are out of place and overpowered.

Or he may be wanting to watch you all fall into his expertly laid traps again and again until he kills you all. If this is a continuous thing and or happens every adventure, then talk to him about it.

If your party likes it, then you may be looking at the situation differently than everyone else sees it. If no one in your party likes it, then you should bring it up to your GM. Don't expect change immediately, be patient.

Tell him or her, "We enjoy (or don't enjoy) you as GM, but we have a problem with the way these situations keep ending. We feel powerless, like our actions and thoughts are meaningless. It doesn't make for a very rewarding time. More like we are watching a movie rather than playing a game."

Your GM may understand and start to allow you to come up with some ideas, or explain why she thought your ideas won't work. If you can get some discussion going the situation will change.

If you get some discussion and it turns out that your GM wants this to continue despite the party not wanting it, or if you differ from the parties idea of fun, you have some options.

First, remake your character. It can be considered drastic, but if this is what you are up against time and time again, make a character specialized against it. Whether you let your first character die or just rewrite completely.

Second, you can hire minions (there were rules in 3rd, not familiar with 5th) to engage first and start combat so that you can come in after. I'm not talking about followers, but mercenaries. Spend a thousand gold and hire some meat shields.

Third, Stop playing. This can be difficult to do. I don't know your party situation or life, so this could be out, but if you aren't having fun, maybe it isn't the right time to play. If the group agrees, you can have someone else try to DM.


These are some few options. Always be careful when you talk about it with your GM they may take it the wrong way.


Every one else has pretty good ideas with how to deal with the combat.

Good Luck

[Thrudd]

So let me get this straight - both parties are aware of each other, presumably because you've seen each other, but the enemies have retreated into a room with a narrow entrance. And initiative has already been rolled at this point, I presume - because both parties are aware of each other.
1. So the monsters got the highest initiative and they all move into the room, maybe getting behind cover, and take the ready action to fire missiles at whoever comes through the door. Or they all get into the room and wait within melee range just inside the door, using the ready action to declare an attack on the first person to come through the door.

2. Then the first player's initiative comes up, and you don't know what to do, because it seems like a bad idea for one person to run into the room alone after a bunch of monsters just went in there. If he enters the room, every orc or whatever shoots its arrow or attacks him at the same time and he might go down before he even gets to attack.

3. But all the rest of the characters initiative now happens, and they can enter the room without being attacked, the monsters already used their ready action - and also get to attack any monster that just attacked the first character, because they all must have come out of hiding in order to do so (if they were hiding in the first place).

2b. The worst case scenario is your toughest, highest AC most HP guy has the lowest initiative, so all the monsters run in there, and nobody else thinks they can survive running in after them, so everyone holds their actions, casts buff spells, throws an area effect through the doorway, or readies a movement instead of an action to be triggered when the first character goes through the door.

3b. The tank runs into the room, gets mobbed by all the monsters, maybe he stays up, maybe he doesn't.

4. Then everyone else's ready action goes off based on the trigger of him moving, and runs into the room behind him.

5. Then you're back to the monster's initiative, some of which will likely be engaged already by characters that just ran into the room. Worst case, nobody entered the room after the tank, so they continue to mob him and probably take him down - or if he's already down, they take up positions and ready actions to attack the next person that comes in the doorway, and the players are in the same conundrum as before - if someone runs in there they will get mobbed, and now the rest of the party is even worse off.

Your best choice for luring them out of hiding is for the character with the highest initiative to suck it up and go in after them, so their readied actions will all be activated. Then the rest of the party can get in there without getting attacked and be able to engage the monsters (who all must be visible, having launched attacks that turn), and maybe even heal up the guy who took one for the team.

If the monsters are using missile weapons from behind cover and are far enough away that your characters can't reach them in one turn, they will still at least be visible after having shot at the first character, and you can use your own ranged attacks against them, even if it might be hard to hit them. On the next turn, things progress normally - nobody that attacked the prior round is hidden, there should be no surprising going on. At worst, the monsters use ready actions to declare they take a shot at anyone moving towards them - but this amounts to the same thing as them all taking shots on their own initiative, since they are at the top of the initiative cycle anyway. Your fighters close the distance, one shot probably not taking them down if it hits at all, and now the defensive advantage is gone.

If you have the ability to get invisibility on anyone, that would be a good way to sneak them into the room past the readied monsters. Even if they detect the invisible character, their readied attacks will all be at disadvantage because the guy's invisible. Then everyone else moves in and the bottleneck is broken. A similar solution would be a fog cloud to let characters move into the room being heavily obscured, so the readied attacks are all disadvantaged.

So what am I missing? Also, if you've got any sort of area effects, like fireball spells, what stops you from shooting a fireball spell to detonate at a point in the room that you can see? You'd likely hit anything close enough to make an attack on someone entering, at least weakening them a bit.

[FreddyNoNose]

Sorry forgot to add 5e will add to main post.

If you had posted in to the 5E forum, it would have made more sense............

[Mundus33]

If you had posted in to the 5E forum, it would have made more sense............

really was hoping for general strategies so posted in the main forum since I do play pathfinder from time to time (mostly one offs).

[Satinavian]

So monsters in their lair (which is a defensible position) use their advantage here ... I don't see any problems. A good position is a good position and NPCs (even monster-NPCs) don't have to act like idiots.

You could

a) suck it up and storm it anyway
b) siege them
c) dig them out
d) give up and move away
e) use the standoff to try diplomacy

[ElChad]

Throw some smoke sticks in there to give disadvantage.

[JackPhoenix]

Do you HAVE to go in there? Saying "Screw this, I'm not paid enough for this ****" is perfectly valid in (and out of)-character response. Perhaps the GM will take a hint.

[Kane0]

If you cant dodge before going in try blade ward or obscuring vision via fog cloud or the like.

[Citan]

First off I'm playing 5e just fyi. So this is a question I've had for a long time especially since I've never been good at strategy (nor have my companions) on how to deal with defensively dug in enemies especially ones with readied actions.

For example many times I've tried to lure out even very aggressive enemies such as trolls, goblins, and orcs into a bottleneck but every dm I've had has basically said that they set up a defense and wait inside for us. Which I think is bs especially for trolls.

Now there is the obvious strategy of sieging them in but I could see the dm saying that they have another exit to get food and such. I thought of smoking them out but apparently they have good ventilation throughout the cave which would serve the idea of multiple exits.

So in situations like this what are some strategies that one could employ with and without magic that would work better than walking straight into the enemies defensive tactic. Keeping in mind very impatient companions that would rather run into said defensive blockade then complain about how they either barely survived or spent 90% of the fight with their face in the dirt.

on a side note our dm ruled that you can't take the dodge action before you enter the room you have to go in and hope you get the higher initiative and even then they technically get a surprise round because of a round of readied actions.
Hi!
Okay, well, hmm... We're in for a long night errr, post. XD
Many things to discuss here.

First, let's address the elephants in the room.

1. Intelligent trolls: honestly their behaviour seems fishy to me. Besides the adequation between INT score and actual smartness (this can always be debated), I really think turtling inside a lair does not fit at all the expected mindset for this kind of creature.

Unless your party is already a high level one, renowned for monster genocide and particularly trolls, I find hard to justify they wouldn't at least try to rush at you once before doubling back.

2. No Dodging before entering a room: this is houserule any way you see it. Is it a bad one? I'm not one to judge, depends on many things.
My best guess is that your DM cannot accept the concept because he represents himself Dodging as actively assessing threats and focusing whole body on avoiding it through anticipation for the next 6 seconds: like, understanding relative positioning and potential lines of fire (arrows) or angles of attack (melee). Which obviously requires you to perceive those threats in the first place. If you have no eye inside the room and creatures are silent, indeed you have no (non-magical) way of knowing creatures number, position and equipment.
So, it's an understandable point of view.

However, you could equally well view Dodge as just focusing "on your inner self", just enhancing your basic survival instincts to reduce unconscious reaction time, just when actual bodily threats arrive: like, when an arrow or blade is just two feets away from you.
It's also an understandable point of view. But this one has the advantage of avoiding any trouble with RAW application. ;)

Honestly: if DM applies it fairly to everyone, then I'd say it's okay.
If it's only on you, then it's a problem that should be discussed out of game, ASAP.

3. Readied attacks when you open the door.
For this, I daresay we don't care about whether DM makes it a full surprise round or just rolled Initiative beforehand.
Because it really is something that can work without any Initiative at work. Telling a guard "this door should never open: fire an arrow as soon as you see it move an inch" is a timeless order.
IF (that's a big IF as we'll see below) dungeon's creatures were unaware of your presence in the first place, but your party has no way to organise an ambush and get a surprise round, then I see no problem with DM ruling that everyone "on guard" can make an action then everyone roll Initiative as normal. Because the door opening is like an alarm ringing by itself.

Problem lies elsewhere: if nobody was aware of your presence, then it's plain illogical that any and every creature inside would be in arms, laying in wait (well, maybe except if you sent them a challenge letter beforehand ^^, or they have any legitimate reason to be on alert -like, you didn't even try to be silent and hard to see when closing in from 2 miles away-).
If creatures were aware of your presence, then Initiative should have been rolled as soon as this awareness came to life, unless of course only an isolated one discovered you and you managed to subdue it quickly and without noise/visuals.

All those things stacked indeed put on a strong feeling that the DM is overpowering himself to "play against players", which is bad. Let's put this aside for a moment though, and consider in fairness everything you could do.

- False information: use environment animals, seduced/corrupted allies of your target place or even more subtle ways to either put them in false security ("the heroes have been sighted far from here, it should take them at least one more day") or overthreat ("there is an elite corps accompanying them"), which you could make more credible by illusions or disguised hirelings if need be.

- Infiltration ++: have your best sneaker spy beforehand (a Druid with Pass Without Trace is especially good at that, thanks to Wild Shape) to get precise information about main exits, armory, diner hall etc... And general map of the place. Use it to create a diversion or have this same character assassinate/charm an influent creature.

- Burnt Earth tactic: use a familiar to move a Darkness to cover you, or use homemade poisons or Stinking Cloud that you push inside with Gust or similar spells, or even plain oil flasks put on fire to create firesmoke.
More generally, use any way you have to create cover and use them.

- Prison tactic: if you have a specific target creature in mind, use Divination spells, corruption or reckon to know where it is usually. If neither a direct stealth assassination nore luring it out is possible, use Walls to isolate it from other people.

- Mental flaw tactic: (extremely DM dependant this one): if you happen to know a specific flaw of a local chief (arrogant/cupid/cowardish) you could try and lure him out with appropriated bait (challenge, gamble, reduced sentence, whatever).

Well... I'll stop here in fact, because it's hard to give proper, useful suggestions without any idea about your party and the kind of lair you are trying to assault.
Besides, if your DM is really working against you, even the most genius idea you could find won't help sadly. Trying to resolve this directly out of game, or leaving the game altogether, would then be the only reasonable choices imo.

Good luck ;)

[DevilMcam]

If you have migic users you can just Destroy the door/windows/walls wtih cantrip and then either storm the place, or keep poking hole in it until they go out to fight you or escape.

If they get out, you got what you wanted.
If they escape with an exit tunel, track them down and kill them, they don't have their defence set up anymore.

If you don't have any way to open the door from a distance you can still, pour some acid on the fixation and wait for the door to fall
You can possibly open the door without standing in the doorway (Rogue jamming the lock open and then pushing him from the side).
poke a hole in the door with an axe and then firball (or whatever nasty spells/explosives/alchemical fire..) through the hole.

A druid could shapeshift into a badger or animal of the sort and make a tunel to get in. Polymorf can be used to the same extent.
Summon a creature to oppen the door.

Any of the utility cantrips could solve this : burn smell/heat with prestidigitation, or just light the door on fire with a bit of preparation, open with mage hand, thaumaturgy specifically slam the door open, Minor illusion could be trickier but still work.

Magic offer you more options but a lot of things can be done without it.

[Sir cryosin]

Tell the DM that ya'll just walk away and leave the goblins, trolls, and Orc's to the next group of adventures. And just have your character walk away. If they are held up in there cave they aren't out killing villager's.

[Sigreid]

Put a tank blocking the door. Have others in the party take sniper and spell sniper to negate anything but total cover. Enjoy your turkey shoot.

Really, what you describe sets up his monsters to be slaughtered by ranged attacks.

[denthor]

Can you cast fireball? Any other area of effect spells?

They are dug in. Ok fireball. Make your save add +what ever for your defense. The monster gets some damage more then can be healed by sleep most likely repeat daily. They die. Or come out as they come out archers fire. They retreat move to the defense point. Combat begins they lose ready actions.

[UrielAwakened]

Your DM doesn't understand how initiative and surprise work. At all.

I don't know about that. They would still get their readied actions before combat begins wouldn't they?

There shouldn't be a surprise round because both parties are aware of each other (And surprise rounds aren't a thing in 5e at all btw. You just are "surprised" in the first round, and then only if you don't roll higher in initiative than whatever attacks you) but readied actions can still happen before combat begins.

[KorvinStarmast]

What level are your characters?

[GloatingSwine]

1. Fire.
2. Artillery.
3. Artillery made of Fire.

Wizards in particular have lots of interesting things to do to entrenched enemies, fireball, cloudkill, glitterdust or stinking cloud as magic flashbangs (esp. if you can send someone with Protection from Poison in after the cloud to tidy up).

[Gorgo]

How about deception to pull the attacks the monsters have prepared? Send in an illusion of one of you first to draw the critters' readied attacks.

Or take away their ability to see you coming with darkness, or the fog cloud some have suggested. Or invisibility to set one of your party up for an opening attack.

If there's a door, pull it open with a rope and see if the critters are readying on the door opening. Or just stand behind the door as you open it.

Suggestion on one of the critters that this defense thing is junk and they should come attack might work, though it's GM-dependent.

[Cl0001]

After doing some 5th edition research though trolls and orcs have equal intelligence there (which is weird). And I must say I wouldn't have let that action work on the goblins either. Goblins are a cowardly and superstitious lot after all.
I could also buy orcs and goblins not being lured out, not necessarily because of intelligence, but because they probably have a basic understanding of strategy like ambushes and defending. But trolls not being lured out is moronic, they are literally animals who just beat the **** out of people.

[Thrudd]

I don't know about that. They would still get their readied actions before combat begins wouldn't they?

There shouldn't be a surprise round because both parties are aware of each other (And surprise rounds aren't a thing in 5e at all btw. You just are "surprised" in the first round, and then only if you don't roll higher in initiative than whatever attacks you) but readied actions can still happen before combat begins.

A "readied action" is an action that is taken during combat. If initiative hasn't been rolled yet, nobody is technically taking any "actions". So an enemy that is hidden waiting to ambush someone doesn't get an automatic free attack before initiative is rolled, unless they succeed at surprising the targets. You determine surprise by making a hiding/stealth check for the ambushers against the perception roll or passive perception of the party. Anyone whose perception score is lower than the hiding score of the monsters is surprised in the first round and can't act, anyone with a high enough perception check is not surprised and rolls initiative vs.the monsters, and might even get to act before the ambushers get to attack them. Only if the entire party failed the perception check vs hiding would they all be surprised and not be allowed to roll initiative until after the first round of attacks. Or, if the DM does have everyone roll initiative right away regardless of the perception checks, they just wouldn't get to act in that first round (which is functionally the same thing as not rolling initiative until after).

If the DM wants to make an ambush very likely to surprise the party, they would probably put it in an environment that provided a bonus to the hiding or a penalty to the perception, or both, giving the ambushers advantage on hiding or something like that. Hiding behind cover, impossible to see until the moment they attack, and if they are using missile weapons from hiding spots, it should be very hard to react to them before they get to attack. But it is still only one single attack with an arrow or thrown weapon before initiative is rolled and combat proceeds normally.

[UrielAwakened]

A "readied action" is an action that is taken during combat. If initiative hasn't been rolled yet, nobody is technically taking any "actions". So an enemy that is hidden waiting to ambush someone doesn't get an automatic free attack before initiative is rolled, unless they succeed at surprising the targets. You determine surprise by making a hiding/stealth check for the ambushers against the perception roll or passive perception of the party. Anyone whose perception score is lower than the hiding score of the monsters is surprised in the first round and can't act, anyone with a high enough perception check is not surprised and rolls initiative vs.the monsters, and might even get to act before the ambushers get to attack them. Only if the entire party failed the perception check vs hiding would they all be surprised and not be allowed to roll initiative until after the first round of attacks. Or, if the DM does have everyone roll initiative right away regardless of the perception checks, they just wouldn't get to act in that first round (which is functionally the same thing as not rolling initiative until after).

If the DM wants to make an ambush very likely to surprise the party, they would probably put it in an environment that provided a bonus to the hiding or a penalty to the perception, or both, giving the ambushers advantage on hiding or something like that. Hiding behind cover, impossible to see until the moment they attack, and if they are using missile weapons from hiding spots, it should be very hard to react to them before they get to attack. But it is still only one single attack with an arrow or thrown weapon before initiative is rolled and combat proceeds normally.


Real quick can you point me to where in the book the bolded part is? I feel like I still don't fully get surprise rounds in 5e.

[Thrudd]

Real quick can you point me to where in the book the bolded part is? I feel like I still don't fully get surprise rounds in 5e.

It's at the beginning of the Combat Chapter, the first page. "Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t."

[KorvinStarmast]

Cloud kill is a nice spell to deal with enemies who have turtled. (Not sure what your level is).

[JackPhoenix]

Real quick can you point me to where in the book the bolded part is? I feel like I still don't fully get surprise rounds in 5e.

There's no surprise round in 5e. Characters unaware of the opposition instead gains unlisted "surprised" status, which effects were already cited by Thrudd.

There's no readied action before the combat starts. Everyone rolls initiative, combat goes as normal. If someone has better initiative than opponents, and no opponents to attack, he can take Ready Action during his turn.

[sithlordnergal]

So, let me make sure I am understanding thw problem correctly. The DM is:

1) Having the monsters in the defensable position stay in that position, and doesn't have them come into a bottle neck where they can easily be killed

2) The monsters ready actions to attack anyone who enters the room

3) He doesn't allow you to take the dodge action before entering the room.

So, how often does this sort of thing happen? Because I only see two problems. First, you are allowed to Dodge before entering the room. Dodge is an action, and you can use your action before or after you move. Second, he may be relying on the strategy too much, but then again it is a good strategy.

That said, Orcs, Goblins, and Trolls are smart enough to know not to go down the bottleneck to be killed by you. If they have an advantage, they know enough to capitalize on it. They're living beings, not B1-Battledroids. They're smart enough to know that going down the hallway is a bad idea.

My DM is similar. He made a simple fight far harder because he had a young frost dragon use hit and run tactics. The dragon would fly out, use it's breath weapon, then fly back into total cover till it's breath recharged. It never landed, it continued to move from cover to cover while avoiding us, and it led us around in a giant chase that took ages. When we did get close it would take the dodge action and fly across the room to the other bit of cover.

Was it an annoying strategy? Sure. Did it manage to hurt us? The ranger got killed. But in the end it made sense for the dragon to do that while we fought it's kobold mooks. Had it not done that, it would have died in 3 rounds, tops. And you know what, in the end I enjoyed that fight more then I would have if it had landed and let us beat on it, and I remember the fight

My suggestion is this: Find some ways to attack them from a distence. If your spell caster has Cloud of Fog, now is the perfect time to use it. Go in with cover of your own, then drop it once you're inside

[StoicLeaf]

I concur with the popular opinion that your DM is either working you over -or- doesn't understand 5e combat.

simply put:

ready actions occur when combat is running.
if combat is running, then you using dodge is perfectly legal.
I suppose the DM could rule that a choke point works in an opposite fashion to cover, so his mobs get +x to hit or advantage (which would only cancel out your dodge), but he hasn't communicated this to you, which, again, points to him not understanding the rules.

As for getting into a cave ..
light a fire at the entrance and just keep piling on wood. Fan the smoke into the cave. If you have mold earth cantrips and the like, wall the fire in to make sure the smoke has no where else to go.
the smoke, carbon monoxide and falling rocks will either do them in or force them out.

[Chugger]

If you can't find another table to play at, if you're stuck with this DM, be passive aggressive. Just don't go in. Just set up an ambush and wait. Forever. Or just leave. But the kidnapped princess the DM might protest - someone else can rescue her, we leave. Just leave. Go to the inn and carouse - do anything but fight. Pick daisies and count the petals over and over. Send a message. Some DMs are so dense that it takes a brick to the head (not literally!) like this to get them to see reason. Just be careful - if you're friends or family with the DM this could become a mess. Maybe find something else to do.

[djreynolds]

What level are your characters?

Thank you, exactly.

What are your capabilities?

Are you all 5th level fighters?

But really there is only two ways.... storm the castle knowing you will take casualties and be prepared.....or.... harass and starve them out.

So you know you might have to take casualties, that fighter in full plate in going to have to take a beating. It is warfare and someone must breach the door.

So ask yourself what spells could you cast on the fighter.

Aid, warding bond are good low level spells that lack concentration

Cleric throws on the fighter shield of faith, the bard cast heroism on the fighter, the wizard places protection from evil if there are those types of enemy, etc....

Beacon of hope is max healing

Sanctuary

gentle repose on the fighter if he dies

Come back later and pay for a raise dead spell.... gives you an extra 10 days

[Azgeroth]

if your sure your DM is being unfair, i.e. even the stupidest of foes seem to have formal military training and each is seemingly a strategic mastermind, crafting enviroments to serve only to **** you over.. do as follows..

dont go in.

buy ranged weapons, lots and lots of ammo, and sit outside, firing in. AoE's like fireball, or even shatter, grasping vines, anything.. as long as you have at least 1 ranged aoe, your good to go.

run out of slots or ammo and they havnt come out yet? ok, time to rest outside.. yep, thats right, sleep at the door.. will they give up their precious defenses? or wait for the second load of AoE's.. if this results in a stale mate, of you cant kill them and they wont leave, thats fine, stay as long as you have rations. then go back to town, restock, go back, repeat.. they will give up eventually, or your DM will have a meltdown and you can force him to at least occasionally change tact.

this is not at all a polite, or wanted solution, and should be your last resort. but, the legitimate solution to dealing with heavily fortified locations is SIEGE! big ol' weapons, ranged weapons, sapping, and out lasting..

not every fight has to be toe to toe

[sithlordnergal]

That's just it though, these aren't the stupidest foes. Orcs, Goblins, and Trolls are not the dumbest foes out there. Are they dumb? Well Orcs and Trolls are, but they aren't brain dead stupid. Commoners and Goblins have an Int of 10, Orcs and Trolls have an Int of 7. Orcs commonly use military tactics and generally tribes have a military force. If an untrained beast, like wolves, were doing this sort of thing, then I'd get annoyed. But outside of that, I can easily see anything with an Int of at least 5 and above understanding the most basic principal of using cover and choke points. They don't have to be brilliant strategists. A child can tell you that cover is good when you're in a snowball fight or playing laser tag. They also will notice that they do better if they have a lot of cover in a place that can only be accessed by a single choke point. They may not be able to articulate how they're doing better, or may mistake the advantages they have for pure skills, but they will notice it.

Considering Trolls, Orcs, and Goblins do a lot more fighting then a kid, I would expect them understand that as well.

[Talyn]

AoE spells and effects. If you aren't high enough level for Fireball, then Flaming Sphere or the like, just to flush them out. Then charge.

If you have to go once more into the breach, then smoke pots give attackers disadvantage. Illusion spells might make them waste their prepared action, especially if they are dumb (INT saves are therefore poor).

Barring all that, have some cheap and expendable hirelings stay outside, periodically firing missiles in so that the enemies stay forted-up, and accomplish your goal another way while they are distracted and suppressed.