Paradox (possibly spoilers)

[squidthingy]

I never realized this before but when reading this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html), I was actually worried for xykon/redcloaks safety, but if you think about it they were in no peril because lets say that they did die than how could the oracles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) prediction come true?

[The Wanderer]

Er... that's not really a paradox. It's getting caught up in the story because Rich is a great writer.

[Eldred]

I think he means that his worry was a paradox because the Oracle had said that Xykon will go to Girard's Gate in the near future.

But even then I'm still a little confused :smallconfused:
This could use a bit more explanation...

[squidthingy]

@The Wanderer-Um, sorry but I'm not understanding your logic, are you saying that because Rich is a great writer he can condradict what he has previously written

As for explaining more I guess I can try

Paradox is basically when two events a contradict each other, it is the main reason why time travel is not really plausible, for example lets say you go back in time before you were born and kill your father, if you father was dead before being with your mother than those two unique dna strands were never combined to create you who are in fact unique, so if you never existed than how did you kill your father

In this case it's a little different but still the same concept, the oracle said that xykon will be within 1000 feet of girard's gate, for this to happen xykon must live through the fight at azure city, it's that simple

[RAGE KING!]

oh...right. whatta ya know. thats really important. I always assumed that he was passing by girards gate on the way to azure city. But i later realized that 1000 feet is not very far at all. so i was confused. But this explains a lot!

[The Wanderer]

@The Wanderer-Um, sorry but I'm not understanding your logic, are you saying that because Rich is a great writer he can condradict what he has previously written

No, I'm saying that the reason you were worried is because you momentarily forgot about what Rich had written earlier, not because he contradicted it. He got you so caught up in the story and the moment that you forgot that there was a clear indication, (unless the Oracle was going to be wrong), that Xykon at least would live past this battle. (And that you having forgotten this isn't a paradox, it's just a case of you forgetting about it).

And a writer who can flat out tell you that something is going to happen, then get you so interested in a story and what's happening in it that you're worried about a character despite the fact that the thing he told would happen hasn't happened yet is a very good writer indeed.

[Tirian]

Well, Oracle or no, there's not much hope in fearing for OotS or Team Evil:


Clearly, they are going to match wits at all of the remaining gates and destroy them, and then the Snarl is going to be released. Then you can start wondering how the story is going to proceed.

[David Argall]

I never realized this before but when reading this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html), I was actually worried for xykon/redcloaks safety, but if you think about it they were in no peril because lets say that they did die than how could the oracles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) prediction come true?

The prophecy says nothing about Redcloak's safety [tho plot conventions do], but as with most prophecy, the oracle did not close all the loopholes. For example he did not say the lich would be alive [er not dead-dead] when he got close to the next gate. So had the lich been disposed of at AC, maybe somebody would sweep up the pieces of bone and carry them off, incidentally passing close to the next gate and forfilling the prophecy.

As to the paradox of killing your father, are you sure you got the right man? I recall a SF story where a man used time travel to eliminate both dad and grandfathers, and found the effect was nil because they had all been "innocent bystanders". Another involved trying to get rid of his wife by killing her father before she was conceived. Sadly for him, his wife had lied about her age and had already been born when the timetraveller offed her old man.

[TheGrimace]

come on guys, an oracle can be wrong.
doesn't divination only work like 80 (+1 per level) percent of the time?

you telling me this is a 20th level oracle?

[Max_Sinister]

It seems to be the best oracle in the known world. And it's in the service of Tiamat, a major goddess.

[NerfTW]

Xykon and Redcloak don't know the prophecy, so why would they think they weren't going to die there? There's no paradox, because they didn't die. You're using your knowledge of the plot (and the fact that in this instance, killing the main antagonist would destroy the plot) and assuming the characters know it.


P.S. What I mean is, sometimes killing the main antagonist and having someone else step in is a nice turn, but since this story relies on the Order stopping the gates from being misused, and only Redcloak and Xykon know about the Dark One's plans, nobody else can step in without it becoming a completely different story. Although prior to it being ruled out, an insane Miko opening the gates would be interesting, but a lot of the humor would have been lost.

[Dalenthas]

It's dramatic irony, not a paradox.

[Arameus]

First of all, Redcloak/Xykon could have at least been defeated, though not killed, which is a great alteration of the scenario, which makes for tension.

Second, be not afraid, for thou art a main character. There's too much stuff left to do for either one of them to die yet, and is also why Roy is probably not down for the count, either.

A paradox is a truth (yes, a truth) comprised of seemingly contradictory elements.

[Dorizzit]

Max_Sinister? Tiamet is a Minor Goddess.

[Arameus]

Find a Goddess of any status whatsoever and call her 'just' a 'minor' Goddess, then judge the reaction you get from her, especially a Dragon Goddess.

[Impikmin]

Ooo, nice observation!! That means that RC And Xykon will at some point get there!! Go team evil :smalltongue:

[TheGrimace]

Find a Goddess of any status whatsoever and call her 'just' a 'minor' Goddess, then judge the reaction you get from her, especially a Dragon Goddess.

I laughed for literally a minute.
That's a great point.

besides, any PC could deep-fry my 3hp 1st level commoner hide.

[Ithekro]

Especially an evil goddess.

[David Argall]

Max_Sinister? Tiamet is a Minor Goddess.

Possibly in standard D&D mythology, but in the comic, she seems to take a quite major role among the gods of the West, possibly the #2 role.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Because face it, name two other Sumerian gods without looking them up.

Gilgamesh and Enkido don't count.

[Spiky]

It's dramatic irony.

Uh, not really. Just dramatic.

[Setra]

Because face it, name two other Sumerian gods without looking them up.

Gilgamesh and Enkido don't count.
Marduk and Anu

I think those are Sumerian, anyways. I've always found deities interesting.

[factotum]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Roy's question specifically started "IF the lich known as Xykon is within 1000 feet...". Therefore the Oracle could easily answer "Girard's Gate" even if Xykon was almost certain to die in the siege on Azure City.

[Tulisin]

Well, Oracle or no, there's not much hope in fearing for OotS or Team Evil:


Clearly, they are going to match wits at all of the remaining gates and destroy them, and then the Snarl is going to be released. Then you can start wondering how the story is going to proceed.


Ayup, pretty much the same cliche that is in every Final Fantasty.

"What, you mean there are five gates/seals/crystals/midgets holding back a great evil!? We must protect them from harm!"
*Failure x5*
"Oh nos, the great evil has been released!"
*Boss fight*

[TDG]

If. If if if. If if if if if if if if if if if...

If I ever grow horns and become an ostrich, I will assassinate the dictionary.

Will I ever grow horns, become an ostrich and assassinate an inanimate book? Possibly not. But if I do, I will...

[Lenny]

If. If if if. If if if if if if if if if if if...

If I ever grow horns and become an ostrich, I will assassinate the dictionary.

Will I ever grow horns, become an ostrich and assassinate an inanimate book? Possibly not. But if I do, I will...


I will make it my life's work to make you grow horns and become an ostrich.

[Ravenatog]

I agree with Lenny on this one, you must destroy the book its your destiny :smallamused:

[Solo]

I agree with Lenny on this one, you must destroy the book its your destiny :smallamused:

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

[donkyhotay]

Personally I don't think this would happen, but I think it would be funny if serini's gate is actually the one that gets attacked next and for whatever reason xykon always remains 1001 feet away from it the entire time while attempting to take it over. Sure it'd be a bit of a repeat of jokes but it would really fry roy to have him realize he stated his question so poorly that the answer he got in girards gate ends up being the very last gate.

[Magioth]

if would be very funny though. They kill xykon now and just stand round for the next three year worth of comic wondering what to do :smallannoyed:

[Dusk_Rider]

This thread makes my head hurt...

[littlechicory]

My humble opinion is that while Xykon, Redcloak, the remainder of the hob army, and the Order of the Stick are duking it out over Girard's Gate (fulfilling the Oracle's prophecy), Nale will quietly and discreetly take Kraagor's gate, only to have Sabine's higher-ups take it from him and unleash the Snarl.

[The Wanderer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Roy's question specifically started "IF the lich known as Xykon is within 1000 feet...". Therefore the Oracle could easily answer "Girard's Gate" even if Xykon was almost certain to die in the siege on Azure City.

Not very good with measurements, eh? 1000 feet is a very short distance... if you're from the US, 3 and a third football fields. Girard's Gate is on another continent... it could easily be 1,000 miles away or more.

There was no way Xykon fall at Azure City and still get within that distance.


This thread makes my head hurt...

Agreed. For so many reasons.


My humble opinion is that while Xykon, Redcloak, the remainder of the hob army, and the Order of the Stick are duking it out over Girard's Gate (fulfilling the Oracle's prophecy), Nale will quietly and discreetly take Kraagor's gate, only to have Sabine's higher-ups take it from him and unleash the Snarl.

That's a very good possibility. And it would be in keeping with the antagonist type that Nale and the Guild are... while everyone is trying to stop Xykon and Redcloak at Girard's Gate with a big final battle, Nale quietly grabs ahold of the other Gate and that way becomes a much bigger threat than anyone in the Order would have predicted.

[Aquillion]

come on guys, an oracle can be wrong.
doesn't divination only work like 80 (+1 per level) percent of the time?

you telling me this is a 20th level oracle?The caster knows when Divination fails, though--it never just gives bad results (which does make the failure chance somewhat superfluous.) Contact Other Plane can give bad results, but only does yes-or-no questions.

(Of the two, though, Contact Other Plane is higher level because, when it works, it will definitely answer those yes-or-no questions as long as an answer is possible... Divination gives cryptic advice that may or may not answer the question you originally asked.)

[VanBuren]

come on guys, an oracle can be wrong.
doesn't divination only work like 80 (+1 per level) percent of the time?

you telling me this is a 20th level oracle?

Cleric, actually. Divination is a level 4 Cleric spell (which begs the question, why don't they at least have Durkon try it first? Unless there was magic giving false information he would know it didn't work anyway.)

And it's also 70% + 1% per caster level, to a maximum of 90%. So the Oracle would only have to be 10th level or so.