Stealth Druid who favours fox shape?

[Coniferous]

I'm currently toying with the idea of a druid whose favourite wildshape is a fox. Considering it's a fox, I've been thinking it would be wise to make the druid have a side focus on stealth.

That being said, this'll be my first game in nearly a decade and I could use some help figuring how to build such a character.

As far as I'm aware the only prohibitions were no alternative campaign settings (Oriental Adventures, Forgotten Realms, Ghostwalk, etc), no psionics and no essentia.

Any help is appreciated.

Edit

Tome of Battle also likely won't be permitted.

Edit 2

Permitted books (in no given order):

Core (DMG, DMG2, PH, PH2, MM)
Completes (CA, CAdv, CM, CW, CS, CD, CC)
Unearthed Arcana
Spell Compendium
Magic Item Compendium
Races (RoD, RoS. RotW, RotD)
Drow of the Underdark
Draconomicon
Dragon Magic

[ATHATH]

Why have Psionics and Incarnum been banned?

Is Pathfinder material allowed? If so, you could just be a Kitsune with that alternate racial trait that lets you turn into a fox at-will.

[arkangel111]

what level? anything else you want to do? might be awhile if you are starting low level before you can get a tiny shape. might also want to consider a werefox.

[Coniferous]

Why have Psionics and Incarnum been banned?

Is Pathfinder material allowed? If so, you could just be a Kitsune with that alternate racial trait that lets you turn into a fox at-will.

The DM doesn't have the books and does not want material to be used he can't reference in his books.

My understanding is that Pathfinder is not permitted, only 3.5.


what level? anything else you want to do? might be awhile if you are starting low level before you can get a tiny shape. might also want to consider a werefox.

We start at level 1. I'm looking for a complete build tree. I didn't know werefoxes were a thing. What books are they in?

[Nifft]

Are you using 3.5e rules, or Pathfinder, or some hybrid of the two?

If you're in 3.5e-land, then you may be interested in the Tibbit race, which can turn into a housecat at-will.

I think fox stats are roughly comparable, so I'd suggest proposing to your DM that you be allowed to play a Kitbit (made-up name for fox-race Tibbit).

[Coniferous]

Are you using 3.5e rules, or Pathfinder, or some hybrid of the two?

If you're in 3.5e-land, then you may be interested in the Tibbit race, which can turn into a housecat at-will.

I think fox stats are roughly comparable, so I'd suggest proposing to your DM that you be allowed to play a Kitbit (made-up name for fox-race Tibbit).

It's just 3.5. I know there are 3.X(?) games but the one I'll be in is purely 3.5e.

Do you know what book I could find the tibbit in?

[Nifft]

It's just 3.5. I know there are 3.X(?) games but the one I'll be in is purely 3.5e.

Do you know what book I could find the tibbit in?

Dragon Compendium (vol 1), page 21.

[Coniferous]

Dragon Compendium (vol 1), page 21.

Ran it past my DM. He is also not allowing 3rd party material, including Dragon Magazine or the Dragon Compendium.

I asked for a complete list of the books I can use, since discovering by trial and error what I can't is become a tedious project.

We are allowed (in no order):

Core (DMG, DMG2, PH, PH2, MM)
Completes (CA, CAdv, CM, CW, CS, CD, CC)
Unearthed Arcana
Spell Compendium
Races (RoD, RoS)
Drow of the Underdark
Tome of Magic

[Jack_Simth]

Well, as you plan on getting Wild Shape along far enough to be a fox in order to make the build work... you really only need to get Hide / Move Silently on your class list. Let's see...

You've got Races of Destiny, so if you play human and take Able Learner, even a single level of it being a class skill will do. Rogue's sneak attack is a handy add-on in wild shape, but that loses you a level of Druid.

DMG 2 has the Apprentice feat, which adds class skills... anything with both Hide and MS? I'm not finding one... Tome of Battle is not on your list (otherwise Martial Study for any Shadow Hand maneuver would do you for Hide).

Hmm... you've got Races of Stone on there, that's where the Whisper Gnome comes from... but that just gives bonuses, not as a class skill. Hmm...

[Nifft]

Ran it past my DM. He is also not allowing 3rd party material, including Dragon Magazine or the Dragon Compendium. Dragon Compendium is first-party.

It's a WotC hardback which picks out the stuff they liked from Dragon Magazine and turned that subset into official content.

(Just because it's first-party doesn't mean your DM will allow it, of course.)



Core (DMG, DMG2, PH, PH2, MM)
Completes (CA, CAdv, CM, CW, CS, CD, CC)
Unearthed Arcana
Spell Compendium
Races (RoD, RoS)
Drow of the Underdark
Tome of Magic

Hmm. Not much there. Let's see...

The default way would be: Druid 20, be a Human, take Able Learner at level 1 and put cross-class ranks into Hide & Move Silently, except you only pay 1 point for each rank because you're an awesome Human with Able Learner. At level 11 you can become a Tiny fox.


Another way might be...

Stealth class (Rogue) + Druid => Daggerspell Shaper, I guess. It's not usually optimal but it could meet your needs, starting around level 8 (because you get early access to Tiny forms as a Daggerspell Shaper). The build would go like: Rouge 1 / Druid 5 / Daggerspell Shaper 10 / Druid +4

[Coniferous]

You've got Races of Destiny, so if you play human and take Able Learner, even a single level of it being a class skill will do. Rogue's sneak attack is a handy add-on in wild shape, but that loses you a level of Druid.

DMG 2 has the Apprentice feat, which adds class skills... anything with both Hide and MS? I'm not finding one... Tome of Battle is not on your list (otherwise Martial Study for any Shadow Hand maneuver would do you for Hide).



My thoughts exactly. My best bet seems to be human with Able Learner.

I have Tome fo Battle and love the classes in it, but it's hard no from my DM. He does not have the book and hates it with a passion; he believes the classes within are overpower. We've already had the martial vs magic discussion on balance. He won't budge. A swordsage druid would do so nicely, though. It's unfortunate.




The default way would be: Druid 20, be a Human, take Able Learner at level 1 and put cross-class ranks into Hide & Move Silently, except you only pay 1 point for each rank because you're an awesome Human with Able Learner. At level 11 you can become a Tiny fox.


Another way might be...

Stealth class (Rogue) + Druid => Daggerspell Shaper, I guess. It's not usually optimal but it could meet your needs, starting around level 8 (because you get early access to Tiny forms as a Daggerspell Shaper). The build would go like: Rouge 1 / Druid 5 / Daggerspell Shaper 10 / Druid +4

This is what I'm leaning towards. Would I be better served with a 1-2 levels or rogue or 1-2 levels of another stealth class (ninja, for example)?

[Nifft]

This is what I'm leaning towards. Would I be better served with a 1-2 levels or rogue or 1-2 levels of another stealth class (ninja, for example)?

One level of Rogue or Scout. Don't sacrifice any more spellcasting & wild shape than you absolutely must. Sacrificing 2 spellcasting levels is going to hurt enough.


Ninja is bad. The only reason to take Ninja levels is because you're playing a Warforged Dread Pirate and you want to be the ironic trifecta: the Robot Ninja Pirate.

[arkangel111]

if it is fox shape you specifically want it will involve a slight bit of modification and could be done at level 1, though I would eat the savage progression to at least level 2, maybe 3 if you like the stat boost for the fox. Apparently foxes are small animals not tiny like in PF so you could be any medium or tiny base race that can be afflicted by lycanthropy. Take this class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) and adjust it for fox (feats agile and weapon finesse for that 2nd lvl) That article is a written by wotc. take not though that you only get the stat changes IF you take the animal progression as well, should only be one level to get everything from the animal side

were creatures can specifically be ANY animal so it shouldn't be an issue. after you get what you want then go any other class. MY suggestion if I were going this route would be...


Rogue 1 / Werefox 1/ fox 2 / rogue +2 / werefox +1 / swashbuckler 1 / warshaper 2 / + swashbuckler and warshaper to taste maybe barbarian for pounce

at ECL 10 you'll have
HD 3d6+4d8+1d10 + con
Str+4 Con +4 Wis +2 Dex + 2
BAB +5
DR 5/silver natural armor + 2
weapon finesse, agile, track
immune to crits and stun
sneak attack +2d6 / + int to dmg
natural attacks limited only by your GM, i suggest increase bite dmg, 2xclaw, slam, gore. so he doesn't hit you with books, though if he is permissive you can get hundreds of natural attacks. look into totemist builds

the only required feat for this build to work is Daring outlaw which lets you combine rogue and swashbuckler levels for sneak attack and grace, able learner would be a nice grab as well. I know it's not the druid but it is a build focused on your fox shape that you are jumping through hoops to get and since you are not a caster you won't have to worry about those lost levels as much. Unless your DM specifically designs encounters against you you will have huge survivabilty with the AC and DR, and you always have the option of grabbing that 3rd level of werefox for DR 10/silver.
I suggest you start with decent Int score to make use of Swashbuckler's int to dmg dex>int>Con>str dumping cha and wis. those early levels are gonna be rough, losing a lot of BAB up front to get things started so make sure you squeeze everything you can out of that fox form to make it worth it. Wild animals may not be welcome in most places but foxes aren't known for eating babies so most people won't think twice about you slinking around "looking for scraps". and remember your size changes increase/decrease stats too.

[Coniferous]

One level of Rogue or Scout. Don't sacrifice any more spellcasting & wild shape than you absolutely must. Sacrificing 2 spellcasting levels is going to hurt enough.


Ninja is bad. The only reason to take Ninja levels is because you're playing a Warforged Dread Pirate and you want to be the ironic trifecta: the Robot Ninja Pirate.

AC bonus to wisdom could be helpful and swift action invisibility Wis Mod/day isn't terrible. You are right, though. The spell casting and wild shape is more important.


if it is fox shape you specifically want it will involve a slight bit of modification and could be done at level 1, though I would eat the savage progression to at least level 2, maybe 3 if you like the stat boost for the fox. Apparently foxes are small animals not tiny like in PF so you could be any medium or tiny base race that can be afflicted by lycanthropy. Take this class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) and adjust it for fox (feats agile and weapon finesse for that 2nd lvl) That article is a written by wotc. take not though that you only get the stat changes IF you take the animal progression as well, should only be one level to get everything from the animal side



Druid wasn't only so I could get access to a fox shape. I would still like the character to be druidy. Considering how strict my DM is about the permissible books, I really doubt he'll be onboard with a from online, even if it is from the WotC website.

[EndocrineBandit]

If oriental adventures were allowed I'd suggest a fox hengeyokai

[arkangel111]

Druid wasn't only so I could get access to a fox shape. I would still like the character to be druidy. Considering how strict my DM is about the permissible books, I really doubt he'll be onboard with a from online, even if it is from the WotC website.

Remember to separate the character from the class. You could easily play the build I submitted as a druid nature protector, as a fox you speak canine and can actually speak the language with other canines without any issues. Able learner gives you effectively every skill as a class skill so you can get survival and all the druid-y skills without issue. if your DM really has an issue point out that the FAQ rulings and errata were rarely printed, yet those changes are usually acceptable. still if that falls flat just ask to play a werefox with the LA and RHD. you'll be uber strong the first few levels but you'll quickly fall behind. all the article does is breakdown the samething over several levels so it can be played with level appropriate abilities.

Otherwise your fastest option is level 4 that has been pointed out. That is a long time to get the core of your character. I'd at least bring up one of these other options. speaking from experience I have had several character concepts never get off the ground because they had to wait 2-3 levels. TPK, roleplay, RL, New game, etc.. always affect the character once the game starts.
The only fox creature for 3.5 I have found was small so you can get it straight druid 4. It'll only be 1/day and only 4 hrs. honestly to me that doesn't meet your character concept as presented.

[Coniferous]

If oriental adventures were allowed I'd suggest a fox hengeyokai

I wish it were possible. If I could use the race I'd likely try to negotiate a LA+0.


Remember to separate the character from the class. You could easily play the build I submitted as a druid nature protector, as a fox you speak canine and can actually speak the language with other canines without any issues. Able learner gives you effectively every skill as a class skill so you can get survival and all the druid-y skills without issue. if your DM really has an issue point out that the FAQ rulings and errata were rarely printed, yet those changes are usually acceptable. still if that falls flat just ask to play a werefox with the LA and RHD. you'll be uber strong the first few levels but you'll quickly fall behind. all the article does is breakdown the samething over several levels so it can be played with level appropriate abilities.

Otherwise your fastest option is level 4 that has been pointed out. That is a long time to get the core of your character. I'd at least bring up one of these other options. speaking from experience I have had several character concepts never get off the ground because they had to wait 2-3 levels. TPK, roleplay, RL, New game, etc.. always affect the character once the game starts.
The only fox creature for 3.5 I have found was small so you can get it straight druid 4. It'll only be 1/day and only 4 hrs. honestly to me that doesn't meet your character concept as presented.

You're of course correct. The concept you've presented would work. I don't think I'll be able to get the online material cleared by my DM.

Because of this, I feel a druid is the best available way to get what I'm looking for.

[ATHATH]

Normally, I'd suggest playing a (refluffed) Druid with the Totem Druid variant, since it lets you Wild Shape into a specific animal (and ONLY that animal) from level 1, but your DM doesn't allow Dragon Magazine Material.

[Coniferous]

Normally, I'd suggest playing a (refluffed) Druid with the Totem Druid variant, since it lets you Wild Shape into a specific animal (and ONLY that animal) from level 1, but your DM doesn't allow Dragon Magazine Material.

I had looked over that as well. I had played a tiger totem druid once and loved it. Unfortunately, the DM currently running the game won't permit anything not from the books specified.

[Coniferous]

I'm having a little trouble plotting my feats. Looking at a human rogue 1/druid 5/daggerspell shaper X. No flaws (my DM has vetoed that but will permit variant class features from UA).

1st - Able Learner, TWF
3 Weapon Focus (Dagger)
6 Natural Spell
9 Savage Grapple
12
15
18

I was hoping to nap Extra Wild Shape earlier than 9th or 12th but there just isn't room. That being said, my character could stay in their fox shape mostly.

Are there other feats I should be looking at, or feats in a different order?

[Grod_The_Giant]

One possible alternative is the Shapeshift variant from PHB 2. It's not particularly great for combat (in fact, it's a huge power hit), but it gives you at-will shapeshifting into a "predator form" at 1st, which could easily be a fox.

Otherwise, I wouldn't worry about Savage Grapple-- you probably don't have enough sneak attack damage to make it worthwhile.

[Coniferous]

One possible alternative is the Shapeshift variant from PHB 2. It's not particularly great for combat (in fact, it's a huge power hit), but it gives you at-will shapeshifting into a "predator form" at 1st, which could easily be a fox.

Otherwise, I wouldn't worry about Savage Grapple-- you probably don't have enough sneak attack damage to make it worthwhile.

I honestly hadn't even considered Shapeshift. It's a huge nerf, but you're right, it does give at will shapeshifting. A medium-size fox would be huge (dire fox maybe?). I could instead play a halfling (I think there's a halfling that gets a free bonus feat at 1st level). In which case I would be small size and could be a regular fox. It's at least worth considering.

The question becomes can you get access to Daggerspell Shaper with Shapeshift? The wildshape progression could be modified.

Edit

Not being able to cast spells while shapeshifted is irritating, but changing as a swift action is nice. You can still choose what you look like, so for infiltration there are still many options.

I think you're right about Savage Grapple. It likely isn't worth the slot. That being said, getting rid of it opens it up from Extra Wild Shape, which could be a boon.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Unfortunately you could not; it requires Wild Shape as a class feature. On the other hand, as a Halfling, you could take the 1st level Halfling Druid sub level (Races of the Wild) to get Hide and Move Silently as class skills for... that level, at least, though sadly it means you can't nab Able Learner. But from there you could go into Holt Warden (CC) at 6th, which has full casting, Hide/Move Silently as class skills (with an additional +4 bonus), and some neat healing/divination special abilities.

[Coniferous]

Unfortunately you could not; it requires Wild Shape as a class feature. On the other hand, as a Halfling, you could take the 1st level Halfling Druid sub level (Races of the Wild) to get Hide and Move Silently as class skills for... that level, at least, though sadly it means you can't nab Able Learner.

I may be able to negotiate that with my DM, as Shapeshifter is worse and acts as an alternative to wild shape. It would only qualify me a level sooner. I do like the halfling substitution. The expanded skill list and extra skill points are a serious benefit.

[Thurbane]

Why have Psionics and Incarnum been banned?

Why is this always the first question people ask? Does it matter to the build in question? Sorry if I sound snarky, but this is what my friends call a "Linux Answer":

Question: "I need some help installing Windows 7 to my elderly mother's computer, and we're having some troubles with the installation disk working properly"
Internet: "No! Install Ubuntu instead! It's heaps better! Why would you even want Windows?"
Original poster: "Um, thanks, but my mother is quite elderly, and can only barely use Windows 7, which is what she's used to - she can't learn a new system. Any chance of answering the actual question asked?"
Internet: "No! Linux forever!"

...this pretty much happened, almost word for word, to my wife. It's also why, despite being an avid D&D player, she won't get involved in online forums. :smalltongue: I've assured her that GiantITP is one of the friendlier and more helpful ones, but from reading over my shoulder, she doesn't believe me.

Anyway, to the point:


Tome of Magic: Dark creature template - if you can eat up LA +1, or use level adjustment buy-off, this is great for any stealthy character.
Lords of Madness: Darkstalker feat. I know this isn't on your list of books, but it's almost required for any serious stealth based character. See if the Dm might allow it.

[ATHATH]

Why is this always the first question people ask? Does it matter to the build in question? Sorry if I sound snarky, but this is what my friends call a "Linux Answer":

Question: "I need some help installing Windows 7 to my elderly mother's computer, and we're having some troubles with the installation disk working properly"
Internet: "No! Install Ubuntu instead! It's heaps better! Why would you even want Windows?"
Original poster: "Um, thanks, but my mother is quite elderly, and can only barely use Windows 7, which is what she's used to - she can't learn a new system. Any chance of answering the actual question asked?"
Internet: "No! Linux forever!"

...this pretty much happened, almost word for word, to my wife. It's also why, despite being an avid D&D player, she won't get involved in online forums. :smalltongue: I've assured her that GiantITP is one of the friendlier and more helpful ones, but from reading over my shoulder, she doesn't believe me.
I'm just curious as to why people dislike Incarnum and Psionics. If it's just laziness and they don't want to learn a new system, I'll leave it be, but if they genuinely hate them, I'd like to know why/remind them of the #1 rule of Psionics/link them to the "Myth: The XPH is Overpowered" thread.

[Thurbane]

I'm just curious as to why people dislike Incarnum and Psionics. If it's just laziness and they don't want to learn a new system, I'll leave it be, but if they genuinely hate them, I'd like to know why/remind them of the #1 rule of Psionics/link them to the "Myth: The XPH is Overpowered" thread.

I just don't think it's a question that needs to be asked every time someone makes a stipulation about what is and isn't required. Not saying you do it personally every time, but someone usually does. Oh well, each to their own. *shrugs*

[Nifft]

I honestly hadn't even considered Shapeshift. It's a huge nerf, but you're right, it does give at will shapeshifting. A medium-size fox would be huge (dire fox maybe?). I could instead play a halfling (I think there's a halfling that gets a free bonus feat at 1st level). In which case I would be small size and could be a regular fox. It's at least worth considering.

The question becomes can you get access to Daggerspell Shaper with Shapeshift? The wildshape progression could be modified.

Edit

Not being able to cast spells while shapeshifted is irritating, but changing as a swift action is nice. You can still choose what you look like, so for infiltration there are still many options.

I think you're right about Savage Grapple. It likely isn't worth the slot. That being said, getting rid of it opens it up from Extra Wild Shape, which could be a boon.

Shapeshift is not the same as Wild Shape, so you won't have access to anything that requires Wild Shape (like Daggerspell Shaper).

Also, Halflings don't get access to Able Learner, so your stealth skills are going to suffer.

There's another path you might attempt: custom spells.


First, look at the spells that exist. Three 1st-level spells in the Spell Compendium allow your Druid to change shape: Aspect of the Wolf, Aquatic Escape, and Winged Watcher.

One of those gives you a combat form. Two of those give you new movement modes and a Tiny size, which helps your stealth.

What you want is to turn into a fox, which is neither a combat form nor gives you any new movement modes. So instead of 1 round/level, you might be able to convince your DM to let you create a Fox Form spell which lasts 10 minutes per level. That would work from level 2 without needing to sacrifice too much of your core capabilities.

[Coniferous]

Also, Halflings don't get access to Able Learner, so your stealth skills are going to suffer.

There's another path you might attempt: custom spells.


First, look at the spells that exist. Three 1st-level spells in the Spell Compendium allow your Druid to change shape: Aspect of the Wolf, Aquatic Escape, and Winged Watcher.

One of those gives you a combat form. Two of those give you new movement modes and a Tiny size, which helps your stealth.

What you want is to turn into a fox, which is neither a combat form nor gives you any new movement modes. So instead of 1 round/level, you might be able to convince your DM to let you create a Fox Form spell which lasts 10 minutes per level. That would work from level 2 without needing to sacrifice too much of your core capabilities.

Because Halfling Druid gains hide and move silently as class skill, Able Learner isn't nearly as important.

I didn't know about those spells and they provide an excellent wild shape alternative until actual wild shape.

[Nifft]

Because Halfling Druid gains hide and move silently as class skill, Able Learner isn't nearly as important.

I didn't know about those spells and they provide an excellent wild shape alternative until actual wild shape.

Cool, I didn't know about htat part of Halfling Druid.

Regarding the spells -- they're only 1 round per level, so they're not a good substitute, but yeah they are available.

I'd ask your DM about creating a custom spell.

[Coniferous]

Cool, I didn't know about htat part of Halfling Druid.

Regarding the spells -- they're only 1 round per level, so they're not a good substitute, but yeah they are available.

I'd ask your DM about creating a custom spell.

I may simply ask if I can alter the appearance of Aspect of the Wolf.

All very good suggestions, thank you.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Cool, I didn't know about htat part of Halfling Druid.

Regarding the spells -- they're only 1 round per level, so they're not a good substitute, but yeah they are available.

I'd ask your DM about creating a custom spell.
Was there errata? Aspect of the Wolf is 10 min/level in the SpC.

[arkangel111]

Interestingly enough aspect of the wolf gives you animal type so you can qualify for awaken despite it being in the very book that nerfed Polymorph/wildshape to fix that exploit. Also using aspect and alter self will let you choose any animal form.
Good luck getting the awaken by your DM though.

[Nifft]

Was there errata? Aspect of the Wolf is 10 min/level in the SpC.

Probably just me mis-remembering.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Probably just me mis-remembering.
Gotcha. Yeah, it's a great "early wild shape" spell; lets you get away with lots physical stats much more easily.

[Bronk]

Permitted books (in no given order):

Core (DMG, DMG2, PH, PH2, MM)
Completes (CA, CAdv, CM, CW, CS, CD, CC)
Unearthed Arcana
Spell Compendium
Races (RoD, RoS)
Drow of the Underdark
Tome of Magic

You might want to double check with your DM about your fox druid idea... As far as I know, there aren't any fox stats listed in any of these books.

[Coniferous]

You might want to double check with your DM about your fox druid idea... As far as I know, there aren't any fox stats listed in any of these books.

I've been wondering about this.

Frostburn has an arctic fox stat block, but I don't think my DM has that book. I may end up using the cat or weasel statblocks instead. Some modification may be necessary (for size for example). I'll need to discuss all this with him.

EDIT

One thing that concerns me is what wild shapes to use, other than fox, considering I likely won't get medium sized wild shape ever (Halfling Druid and Daggerspell Shaper). Thoughts?

[Nifft]

I've been wondering about this.

Frostburn has an arctic fox stat block, but I don't think my DM has that book. I may end up using the cat or weasel statblocks instead. Some modification may be necessary (for size for example). I'll need to discuss all this with him.

EDIT

One thing that concerns me is what wild shapes to use, other than fox, considering I likely won't get medium sized wild shape ever (Halfling Druid and Daggerspell Shaper). Thoughts?

You can always invent new monsters, like the famous Jade Jungle Fox, which is green and just happens to use Wolf statistics.

Or the Granite Mountain Bear-Fox, which uses the same stats as a bear, but is clearly a fox.


Regarding high-level forms, I recommend picking up Dragon Wild Shape (the one in Draconomicon p.105, not the one in the Epic Level Handbook), right at level 12 when you first qualify.

Dragon Wild Shape allows you to transform into Small and Medium dragon shapes. That will expand your repertoire to Medium, and coincidentally give you better forms (with flying, immunities, good natural armor, and a breath weapon) -- and these dragon shapes will be compatible with the Dagger-Claw stuff from Daggerspell Shaper.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Or Aberration Wild Shape; there are some crazy good Aberrations, especially if you have Enhance Wild Shape.

I mean, you'll get Large forms; Daggerspell Shaper grants that at 4th. The bigger concern is what you can turn into-- the PrC progression Wild Shape duration, and grants new uses per day, but it does not stack for the purposes of hit die limits. With five levels of Druid going in, you'll only ever be able to take 5HD forms. Meaning that something like a Lion (once you get Large shaping) or Leopard (before you do) is as good as you're going to get. Other good options that may or may not be available include the Desmodu Hunting Bat and Guard Bat (MM2) and Fleshraker (MM3), because of course they are, and the Swindlespitter (MM3) and Sailsnake (MM4) for a poison spray.


(Incidentally, Scout may be worth considering in place of Rogue. You can qualify for Daggerspell Shaper with it no problem, and Skirmish is real easy to get when Wild Shaping into pounce-forms)

[Nifft]

Or Aberration Wild Shape; there are some crazy good Aberrations, especially if you have Enhance Wild Shape.

I mean, you'll get Large forms; Daggerspell Shaper grants that at 4th. The bigger concern is what you can turn into-- the PrC progression Wild Shape duration, and grants new uses per day, but it does not stack for the purposes of hit die limits. With five levels of Druid going in, you'll only ever be able to take 5HD forms. Meaning that something like a Lion (once you get Large shaping) or Leopard (before you do) is as good as you're going to get. Other good options that may or may not be available include the Desmodu Hunting Bat and Guard Bat (MM2) and Fleshraker (MM3), because of course they are, and the Swindlespitter (MM3) and Sailsnake (MM4) for a poison spray.


(Incidentally, Scout may be worth considering in place of Rogue. You can qualify for Daggerspell Shaper with it no problem, and Skirmish is real easy to get when Wild Shaping into pounce-forms)

Regarding Aberration Wild Shape, this is true -- if you don't mind ignoring Medium, you can just ignore Medium.


Regarding Scout -- the problem there is Daggerspell Shaper seems to advance Sneak Attack specifically, instead of advancing any bonus damage (unlike what Unseen Seer does). So, you can get in with Skirmish, but you can't advance Skirmish. Thus I recommend just using Sneak Attack to get in.

If you had access to Dragon Magazine, there would be a neat feat (Swift Avenger) that allows Skirmish to be advanced by Druid levels, so you could go Scout 1 / Druid 19 and have a great Pounce build, but that's not applicable to your game. And Grod is right about how good Skirmish is on a pouncing Druid.

[Bronk]

One thing that concerns me is what wild shapes to use, other than fox, considering I likely won't get medium sized wild shape ever (Halfling Druid and Daggerspell Shaper). Thoughts?

Well, if your DM is getting magic items from the Magic Item compendium (which isn't currently on the list) there's the 'Wild Shape Amulet', which increases your druid level for wild shapes by 4.

There's also the 'Megalodon Empowerment' spell later on (spell level 8 from the Spell Compendium) that grants a larger form.

[Coniferous]

You can always invent new monsters, like the famous Jade Jungle Fox, which is green and just happens to use Wolf statistics.

Or the Granite Mountain Bear-Fox, which uses the same stats as a bear, but is clearly a fox.


Regarding high-level forms, I recommend picking up Dragon Wild Shape (the one in Draconomicon p.105, not the one in the Epic Level Handbook), right at level 12 when you first qualify.

Dragon Wild Shape allows you to transform into Small and Medium dragon shapes. That will expand your repertoire to Medium, and coincidentally give you better forms (with flying, immunities, good natural armor, and a breath weapon) -- and these dragon shapes will be compatible with the Dagger-Claw stuff from Daggerspell Shaper.

Dragon Wild Shape is definitely in the plan.

I hadn't though of 'new' monsters. It's definitely something to consider, though I'll need to run it past my DM.


Or Aberration Wild Shape; there are some crazy good Aberrations, especially if you have Enhance Wild Shape.

I mean, you'll get Large forms; Daggerspell Shaper grants that at 4th. The bigger concern is what you can turn into-- the PrC progression Wild Shape duration, and grants new uses per day, but it does not stack for the purposes of hit die limits. With five levels of Druid going in, you'll only ever be able to take 5HD forms. Meaning that something like a Lion (once you get Large shaping) or Leopard (before you do) is as good as you're going to get. Other good options that may or may not be available include the Desmodu Hunting Bat and Guard Bat (MM2) and Fleshraker (MM3), because of course they are, and the Swindlespitter (MM3) and Sailsnake (MM4) for a poison spray.


The issue with Aberration Wild Shape is that it requires additional feats that I already feel a little starved for. I also feel like taking Aberration Wild Shapewould then require Supernatural....something, the feat that lets you use one supernatural ability from an alternate form. It's on the tip of my tongue.

If the druid levels don't stack for HD, could I just use the Daggerspell Shaper levels when they are higher? That means I'll be 5 levels behind or so, but that's easier to make up.


(Incidentally, Scout may be worth considering in place of Rogue. You can qualify for Daggerspell Shaper with it no problem, and Skirmish is real easy to get when Wild Shaping into pounce-forms)


Regarding Aberration Wild Shape, this is true -- if you don't mind ignoring Medium, you can just ignore Medium.


Regarding Scout -- the problem there is Daggerspell Shaper seems to advance Sneak Attack specifically, instead of advancing any bonus damage (unlike what Unseen Seer does). So, you can get in with Skirmish, but you can't advance Skirmish. Thus I recommend just using Sneak Attack to get in.

If you had access to Dragon Magazine, there would be a neat feat (Swift Avenger) that allows Skirmish to be advanced by Druid levels, so you could go Scout 1 / Druid 19 and have a great Pounce build, but that's not applicable to your game. And Grod is right about how good Skirmish is on a pouncing Druid.

I've never quite been comfortable with Skirmish. I have trouble figuring out how to get the necessary movement in when not charging. I generally agree with you about sneak attack.

[Nifft]

I hadn't though of 'new' monsters. It's definitely something to consider, though I'll need to run it past my DM.

The key here is to stress that you're only asking for a cosmetic change, and you're quite happy to use the existing stats for normal animals that would be allowed.

Power creep is bad, but flavor creep is delicious.

[Bronk]

One thing that concerns me is what wild shapes to use, other than fox, considering I likely won't get medium sized wild shape ever (Halfling Druid and Daggerspell Shaper). Thoughts?

This was bothering me overnight, so I looked up Daggerspell Shaper. This class gets it's own version of Wild Shape, that explicitly doesn't interact with druid wild shape for size... so the halfling druid substitution level has no effect. As soon as you take one level of this class, you can already wild shape into a medium sized form.

[ShurikVch]

It's unfortunate Dragon stuff isn't available - you could select Dire Fox (Dr#291) as Predator Form, and Flying Fox (Dr#341) - as Aerial Form...

[Coniferous]

Well, if your DM is getting magic items from the Magic Item compendium (which isn't currently on the list) there's the 'Wild Shape Amulet', which increases your druid level for wild shapes by 4.

There's also the 'Megalodon Empowerment' spell later on (spell level 8 from the Spell Compendium) that grants a larger form.

Though it wasn't listed in the books available to use, I think it is. I'll confirm with my DM and add it after. I love MiC; so many useful gadgets and trinkets. Wild Shape Amulet will help profusely with the oddness that is Daggerspell Shaper wild shape.


The key here is to stress that you're only asking for a cosmetic change, and you're quite happy to use the existing stats for normal animals that would be allowed.

Power creep is bad, but flavor creep is delicious.

Agreed. I think he'll be open to simple re-flavouring.


This was bothering me overnight, so I looked up Daggerspell Shaper. This class gets it's own version of Wild Shape, that explicitly doesn't interact with druid wild shape for size... so the halfling druid substitution level has no effect. As soon as you take one level of this class, you can already wild shape into a medium sized form.

The more I'm learning about this PrC the odder it seems. I'm beginning to wonder if there is a better way of doing a stealth druid to avoid the headache.


It's unfortunate Dragon stuff isn't available - you could select Dire Fox (Dr#291) as Predator Form, and Flying Fox (Dr#341) - as Aerial Form...

Unfortunately, it isn't available. I might look at them anyway though, for determining aesthetics.

[ShurikVch]

Unfortunately, it isn't available. I might look at them anyway though, for determining aesthetics.Flying Fox is literally just a refluffed Raven (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/raven.htm).

Dire Fox is...

:smallconfused:
Wait a minute...
Where you getting RAW for "average" Fox?
I don't see Frostburn in the "Permitted books" list, and it's (AFAIK) the only 1st-party source (technically, it's Arctic Fox)

For non-1st-party sources, we have three different variants of Fox in various Dragon magazines (one of which is just a refluffed Cat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm)), and two more - in Kingdoms of Kalamar books (CR ½ and ¼)

[Bronk]

Though it wasn't listed in the books available to use, I think it is. I'll confirm with my DM and add it after. I love MiC; so many useful gadgets and trinkets. Wild Shape Amulet will help profusely with the oddness that is Daggerspell Shaper wild shape.

The more I'm learning about this PrC the odder it seems. I'm beginning to wonder if there is a better way of doing a stealth druid to avoid the headache.

Oh, I agree, there's a lot of great stuff in there.

I do hope you get some more books added to the approved list. It looks like the halfling druid substitution level you were mentioning is actually from Races of the Wild, which also isn't on the approved list.

If you could get MM2 on the list, you could be an LA+0 Jermalaine, which is tiny. Then if you could get Masters of the Wild on the list, you could get the 'Proportional Wild Shape' feat, and wild shape into tiny creatures, which could include the fox, if you took one of the tiny foxes...

Man, the book selection is a real hassle! It's restricting a lot of good druid stuff, including wild shape forms.

[Coniferous]

The more I'm learning about this PrC the odder it seems. I'm beginning to wonder if there is a better way of doing a stealth druid to avoid the headache.


The more I look the more I realize there is not better stealth druid class/PrC. It's just such a headache, but it's not a terrible PrC.

Since I already get tiny wildshape, do you think I could negotiate for a different wildshape from Daggerspell Shaper?


Flying Fox is literally just a refluffed Raven (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/raven.htm).

Dire Fox is...

:smallconfused:
Wait a minute...
Where you getting RAW for "average" Fox?
I don't see Frostburn in the "Permitted books" list, and it's (AFAIK) the only 1st-party source (technically, it's Arctic Fox)

For non-1st-party sources, we have three different variants of Fox in various Dragon magazines (one of which is just a refluffed Cat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm)), and two more - in Kingdoms of Kalamar books (CR ½ and ¼)

Frostburn isn't in the list. I just came across it while looking for 1st party sources for fox. I might just use weasel as fox, seeing as I get tiny wildshape first.

EDIT

Is there a dire fox? I might just use leopard, or tiger when available.


Oh, I agree, there's a lot of great stuff in there.

I do hope you get some more books added to the approved list. It looks like the halfling druid substitution level you were mentioning is actually from Races of the Wild, which also isn't on the approved list.

If you could get MM2 on the list, you could be an LA+0 Jermalaine, which is tiny. Then if you could get Masters of the Wild on the list, you could get the 'Proportional Wild Shape' feat, and wild shape into tiny creatures, which could include the fox, if you took one of the tiny foxes...

Man, the book selection is a real hassle! It's restricting a lot of good druid stuff, including wild shape forms.

I checked with my DM about books. I was wrong about Tome of Magic, but the Draconomicon, Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic are all in, as is Races of the Wild. Heroes of Horror is also on the list, which I missed.

I would love for Tome of Battle be on the list, but it is not. Any MM other than the first is also out. :(

[Bronk]

The more I look the more I realize there is not better stealth druid class/PrC. It's just such a headache, but it's not a terrible PrC.

Since I already get tiny wildshape, do you think I could negotiate for a different wildshape from Daggerspell Shaper?



Frostburn isn't in the list. I just came across it while looking for 1st party sources for fox. I might just use weasel as fox, seeing as I get tiny wildshape first.

EDIT

Is there a dire fox? I might just use leopard, or tiger when available.



I checked with my DM about books. I was wrong about Tome of Magic, but the Draconomicon, Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic are all in, as is Races of the Wild. Heroes of Horror is also on the list, which I missed.

I would love for Tome of Battle be on the list, but it is not. Any MM other than the first is also out. :(

Ouch. I'm glad you rustled up some more books though!

There is a dire fox, but I think it's in Dragon Magazine. I forget the issue number, but there's a PrC called, I think, Gnome Outrider, who keep foxes, and use a 'war fox harness' that turns their foxes into dire foxes so they can ride them around.

[ShurikVch]

Is there a dire fox?Dire Fox was in Aldriv's Revenge (3.0 Kingdoms of Kalamar book), and later - in Dragon #291